Do you believe that these West Point first classman are violating the UCMJ by making a political statement while in uniform?

2016-05-04T16:26:30-04:00

DOD directive 1344.10 states:

-A member of the Armed Forces on active duty may:
4.1.1.3. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when NOT in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph 4.1.2.4. (See DoD Instruction 1334.1 (Reference (c).)

From the article "Racism Within West Point"
http://www.inthearenafitness.com/index.php/racism-within-west-point

Racism Within West Point

West Point, the prestigious military academy that carries itself with honor and pride for the incredible leaders that have been produced from the rigorous academic undertaking of its cadets, yet what happens when those same cadets identify with a group that has been known for inflicting violent protest throughout various parts of the United States, calling for the deaths of police officers, and even going so far as to call for the deaths of...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 4:39 PM

2016-05-04T16:39:55-04:00

If these Cadets are, in fact, posing in a manner that violates the DoD Directive, then appropriate action needs to happen.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made May 4 at 2016 4:40 PM

2016-05-04T16:40:23-04:00

What political statement? Aren't they simply airing their right armpits?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 4:49 PM

2016-05-04T16:49:55-04:00

Yes, especially if they are representing a group that has committed violence within the United States as well as called for the death of Law Enforcement Officer and in some cases White Americans. This is a disgrace.

Response by PFC Alexander Oliveira made May 4 at 2016 4:56 PM

2016-05-04T16:56:03-04:00

we can play dumb like theyre not but lets be real

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 4 at 2016 5:04 PM

2016-05-04T17:04:04-04:00

Nope I see this as no more Political than holding up a copy of Captain Margie Turner's book on the Success of African Americans in the U.S. Military. I love it!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 5:04 PM

2016-05-04T17:04:49-04:00

I don't think the chain of command at West Point up to the Sect'y of Army is blind to allow these cadets to go against the UCMJ.

Response by SSG Dennis Grossmann made May 4 at 2016 5:05 PM

2016-05-04T17:05:09-04:00

Aren't they just Beyonce fans? Nothing will come of it, I'm almost willing to bet my truck on that.

Response by SPC David S. made May 4 at 2016 5:22 PM

2016-05-04T17:22:37-04:00

It should be investigation to ensure accountability for anyone in violation of UCMJ.
At a minimum I think the pair on the railing should rack up a couple of demerits.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made May 4 at 2016 5:33 PM

2016-05-04T17:33:01-04:00

I don't see any actions that violate the DOD Directive quoted in that opinion piece. The writer's opinion is nothing more than that....an opinion.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 5:40 PM

2016-05-04T17:40:55-04:00

This gets to one of my favorite topics: are young men and women at the Service Academies part of the Armed Forces? I've never understood the logic of having cadets be subjected to the UCMJ, paid by the military, etc, etc but not counting their service for things like retirement and pay. Before we address the question here about this photo, we need to resolve the bigger question.

For the record, I don't find that there is a UCMJ violation here, of any sort.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 5:53 PM

2016-05-04T17:53:25-04:00

Sir,
This picture does not convey intention. I think people should be allowed to take a picture and raise their arms in the air wearing a uniform. I am sure if all white males stood there doing that same fist pump it would not be offensive. That is the true test of acceptability today. If a white male can do it and nobody gets offended, then it must not be grounds for investigation. More funding should be directed toward the ideal ratio for demographics in pictures and giving massages to monkeys. ITS THE ONLY WAY.

If it is in fact a statement linked to Black Power from the 60s or the BLM of today, I would question the education they are receiving.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made May 4 at 2016 6:21 PM

2016-05-04T18:21:20-04:00

I was called a racist once. Then I cleared it up. I do NOT hate an entire race. There are all kinds of PEOPLE I hate. Many different Races. I also hate broccoli, Most greens, besides mustard. So that makes me Prejudice. But as far a a racist, nope, I hate you, you you, you and especially you! I hate everyone equally!

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made May 4 at 2016 6:26 PM

2016-05-04T18:26:41-04:00

They always warned us about taking any kind of public position or expressing an opinion politically in public. Of course once I got out .....well that's a different story now isn't it? ha ha

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 6:34 PM

2016-05-04T18:34:46-04:00

That article doesn't make any sense. First, it gives no source as to why he thinks the picture is related to BLM. But also, he stated that the group had been addressing the issue behind closed doors to senior officers. What does that mean? I doubt any cadets were having meetings with senior officers to discuss police brutality. And if they were having discussions behind closed doors about racism at WP, isn't that exactly the venue they should be doing it? And lastly, his description of the goals of BLM is total bullshit.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made May 4 at 2016 6:34 PM

2016-05-04T18:34:51-04:00

COL Sam Russell - See some cadets doing a goofy pose. OK... let's address that 500-lb gorilla: They're all black women and some have a raised fist. Where's the violation?! We see what we want. Maybe the pic has been taken out of text? Could they all be signing the international sign language letter "a" for "Army?" (Poignantly, the pic is directly in front of the Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic.)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 6:35 PM

2016-05-04T18:35:46-04:00

1. So exactly what statement are they making?
2. According to the article they are making "behind closed doors statements". What statements are they making? Is it counter productive to good order and discipline?
3. And the big question is. Once they graduate/commission, and move out to units then what? Will there still be behind closed doors statements? And will it effect their duties and responsibilities as Commissioned Officers?

My understanding is that we (currently serving) Military are "supposed" to be as politically neutral while representing our respective branches, and the uniform that we wear. Am I mistaken?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-05-04T19:08:44-04:00

I like all of the tap dancing here. It's cute. I think everyone here knows exactly what this gesture represents. Additionally, I'm sure a group of white male cadets with fingers extended and joined, and raised 45 degrees to their front would elicit a much different response.

That being said, I don't know what authorities cadets fall under and don't particularly care. They are kids. We all did dumbass things when we were kids.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made May 4 at 2016 7:54 PM

2016-05-04T19:54:15-04:00

Well there is obviously some subplot not mentioned here. Photo appears to show all female black cadets showing support of something, but what? See nothing to indicate any organization or club that they may or may not be representing. Raised fist can represent many things, perhaps some sports team just won, and unless there is something against rules leading up to it the photo is meaningless. Photo just seems to be cadets celebrating something, so no not a UCMJ violation.

Response by MSgt Daniel Harrison made May 4 at 2016 9:38 PM

2016-05-04T21:38:28-04:00

Personally, I don't think they are making a political statement as much as they are simply showing unity to themselves and the corp.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made May 4 at 2016 10:04 PM

2016-05-04T22:04:41-04:00

COL Sam Russell The photo is obviously tail-twisting, deliberately dubious, and open to interpretation " make of it what you will" sort of thing, but there is nothing to clearly attach it to a political subject or banned activity. As Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen states there is obviously a unspoken subplot or message here about something. To answer your original question, although they may have meant to fool me, the pose immediately reminds me of 'black power' symbolism, "Black Lives Matter' symbolism, defiance of the establishment, defiance of the man, defiance of any authority, and in-your-face at the same time. All but one cadet has assumed a sour-puss, belligerent irked look. One cadet didn't get the word and is caught smiling. No one knows if that was the intent, as there is no message attached to the photo, no statement, and nothing from any confirmed source, only anonymous communications on Yik Yak at the Military Academy. (as reported by 'In the Arena' blog.)

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 11:41 PM

2016-05-04T23:41:01-04:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZRj_a_2qM

#BlackLivesMatter Smackdown in Seattle - Ben Shapiro

It's time for the NAACP to have a revelation and a revolution. A revelation into the ineffectiveness of their preoccupation with seeing everything from the "...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 11:58 PM

2016-05-04T23:58:13-04:00

I rarely voice my opinion or engage others on topics like these because it seems like it only ends badly for those that disagree with the ones that support it.

It's extremely obvious that they're supporting the Black Lives Matter organization, and it's very unprofessional conduct of indiduals that will become Officers in the near future.

I don't mean to sound unprofessional by any means myself, but it's also obvious why the Senior Leaders in the Army are so poor these days. If you'll notice, it's Officers, particularly in the rank/grade of LTC/0-5 that are basically supporting these actions right here in these comments! It's actually quite sad that the Army is so full of them. I've known/known of quite a few Senior Officers that would never have allowed this type of stuff.

This is a school that is supposed to be providing the next leaders of the Army, and people are still wondering why the Army is going down hill...?

I have no doubt that any Officer on Rally Point, active or retired, can call my Battalion Commander or higher and complain that I voiced my opinion in a disrespectful tone, manner, etc. Once again, these are the types of Senior Leaders that cause the Army to lose quality Officers and NCOs. I have known so many great leaders, Officers and NCOs to ETS that it's demotivating. It's so frustrating to have to deal with poor leadership when added to all of the other things that Service Members have to deal with these days.

I recently hit my 13th year of service and have been a SFC/E-7 for nearly 3 of those, and will most likely ETS after my current contract ends. Most senior leaders wouldn't care because it doesn't effect them at all, but it should say something, if guys are getting out at 15 years just so they don't have to deal with another 5 years of these shenanigans.

Times have changed, that's for sure!

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made May 5 at 2016 12:09 AM

2016-05-05T00:09:53-04:00

IMO this is a politically racist statement and in violation of DoD directives.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 12:34 AM

2016-05-05T00:34:43-04:00

This fist thing seems to be going around West Point.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 5 at 2016 12:35 AM

2016-05-05T00:35:21-04:00

I see nothing... I just hope when they graduate... they are humble and appreciative.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made May 5 at 2016 12:40 AM

2016-05-05T00:40:07-04:00

Sir if they are indeed facing some kind of racism in West Point and I don't discount the possibility, then bringing attention to it is courageous. We are talking about it exactly because they chose to be pictured wearing the West Point uniforms.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 12:41 AM

2016-05-05T00:41:34-04:00

Holy Smokes! Here's General Dempsey leading the cadets in the fist salute! Thanks, Obama!!!

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 5 at 2016 1:02 AM

2016-05-05T01:02:25-04:00

There's a lot of focus on the UCMJ here. When I was in Beast Barracks back in the day, there were many rules which go far beyond the UCMJ. The one that strikes me is anything that brings the Cadet Corps into disrepute. They take that very seriously. That would be in the eye of the beholder. So I don't know how it spins now vs. Class of '75 in which a number of one way air fares would be issued. The '68 Olympics would be very fresh in their minds. Just missing the gloves. And in honor of CPT Jack Durish I'll add they must be using that new deodorant "Pit Stop".

Response by SFC David Pratt made May 5 at 2016 2:08 AM

2016-05-05T02:08:05-04:00

A bunch of black cadets showing support for a racial hate group, making a black lives matter fist. I would imagine this same question would not have been asked if it was a bunch of white men with blonde hair and blue eyes throwing out the nazi salute. You bet your ass their conduct is prejudice to good order and discipline. Looks like some young ladies need toe all some hours to get their head screwed on straight or find a new profession.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 5:04 AM

2016-05-05T05:04:45-04:00

Lt. Col. Christopher Kasker, the public affairs director for West Point, said in a statement that the academy “can confirm that the cadets in this photo are members of the U.S. Military Academy’s Class of 2016. Academy officials are conducting an inquiry into the matter.” RAW StORY 5MAY16

Response by SGT James Colbert made May 5 at 2016 5:20 AM

2016-05-05T05:20:45-04:00

i think they need to re take ethics in the military 101 again, because they clearly failed that class

Response by COL Sam Russell made May 5 at 2016 7:14 AM

2016-05-05T07:14:20-04:00

Great responses and discourse all. The issue hit the Army Times this morning.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2016/05/04/army-investigating-if-these-west-point-cadets-making-political-statement-uniform/83950452/#_=_

CPT Ahmed Faried , SN Greg Wright , COL Charles Williams , Capt Tom Brown , Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen , 2LT Private RallyPoint Member , SFC Victor Serrano , MSgt Daniel Harrison , SFC Jim Ruether , SGT Bryon Sergent , SGT James Colbert , CPT Private RallyPoint Member , SFC David Pratt , CAPT Kevin B. SSgt Jim Gilmore , SFC Private RallyPoint Member , CPT (Anonymous) , LTC Private RallyPoint Member , MAJ Carl Ballinger , MSgt Daniel Harrison
MTF

Army investigates: Are these West Point cadets making a political statement in uniform?

West Point is investigating a photo that shows 16 black female cadets in uniform displaying raised fists outside a U.S. Military Academy barracks.

Response by SSG Dale London made May 5 at 2016 7:37 AM

2016-05-05T07:37:32-04:00

If these cadets are indeed making a political statement with this photo then they are violating the UCMJ. However right, proper, or otherwise their cause may be, to make the statement while wearing the uniform of a USMA cadet inadvertently but inevitably implies that USMA supports that movement. As they are cadets they have no authority to make such a statement. If they way to support BLM they need to get out of uniform to do it.

Response by COL Mo Fenner made May 5 at 2016 7:49 AM

2016-05-05T07:49:57-04:00

What is the context of the picture? I graduated from USMA in 1982. I have seen a lifetime of groups taking pictures out of context. The most infamous was when we were at summer camp. A bunch of cadets were wearing sheets and playing like ghosts and someone took a picture. The NY Times ran it as KKK at West Point. They never retracted it even when someone pointed out that one of the hands sticking out under a sheet was obviously not white. There is a brotherhood at West Point that that is hard to describe. Any additional ties that bind you to one another such as being a minority bind you more. It is traditional for Seniors to have group pictures taken. Were they all on a sports team together? A clenched fist can be used to signify unity for many things. Those pictures mean these are our friends and we want our picture taken together. I doubt if it was political, but they need to be careful because perception can be truth. Ask the NY Times.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 8:32 AM

2016-05-05T08:32:42-04:00

I'll be completely honest. I don't care what these knuckleheads are doing. Racism, BLM, or any other crap. I have better things to do. If you want to stand on a railing in uniform and look like an idiot, you go right ahead. Not even in a line unit yet and here is the professionalism your showing. Good luck getting respect. Last time I checked the United States Army was one team.

Response by SSG Wally Lawver made May 5 at 2016 9:01 AM

2016-05-05T09:01:04-04:00

absolutely. But this is a protected class in the Army...........................

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 9:06 AM

2016-05-05T09:06:18-04:00

First, the evidence here sucks. There is no proof of intention in anything. That being said, these ladies can be punished for the perception the photo creates. In the DOD directive quoted, you would have to PROVE that they have joined a movement of some sort. You would have to define the word "join," in legal terms. I doubt there is a sign up roster somewhere. If there is...they are a sack of hammers and should be voted off the island for being stupid. All that aside, back to my second point here...if there is a perception that brings discredit to the Army or is prejudicial to good order and discipline, they can and should be punished. Their intent is a matter of extenuation, not mitigation. It would determine how strong their punishment should be, not whether they should be punished at all. It should be a wake up call to each one of these ladies about the rights they DO NOT have any longer now that they have joined the military. We are all citizens, but we have relinquished our rights in many aspects. One of them is total free speech. No one really has free speech. Shouting, "Fire," in a crowded movie theater is the classic example. We have many more restrictions than that. This gets into the intention lane however. That being said, they are cadets and should be asked what the picture was meant to be and for what purpose and they should answer truthfully and be trusted with that answer...otherwise we have lost everything at West Point. Either way, they should have a near-career experience here. Someone needs to inform them that this picture, even if intended to be benign, is not and in the future, thinking of 2nd and 3rd order effects is a necessary action in the military.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 9:22 AM

2016-05-05T09:22:02-04:00

My view on the matter is simple.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 9:35 AM

2016-05-05T09:35:20-04:00

I see both sides of the issue. A lot have said this is black female unity. Yeah... I get that. But that defeats the purpose of being at West Point, one of the most prestigious clubs in the United States. You don't need unity there. You need to be part of a team. You've already accomplished something few others have, and many would kill for. Why set yourself apart? Same goes for the military as a whole. So personally, I find this unity argument silly.

The other side is the connection to Black Panthers. They are young and might not even be aware of the militant organization. They might associate that gesture with BLM. I am not up to speed whether they are using that as their gesture or not. Can't comment there.

The question here is of perception. What would the perception be if this were the Latino population at West Point throwing out a West Side symbol.

I think symbolism, gestures, whatever you want to call it, have no place at West Point, nor a need. Same goes for the Army as a whole. You are already part of a small family and group of like-minded individuals. The largest Fraternity in the country.

I suppose they were exactly what they are. Kids being kids. They will grow up soon, and fast.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 10:39 AM

2016-05-05T10:39:49-04:00

So if they were white cadets doing a German ww2 style salute would it be an extremist gesture? It's a posed picture they knew what they were doing someone needs to take action. I've seen enlisted Soldiers get hemmed up for trying to be funny and throwing gang signs while in uniform. What is the difference here the black lives matter movement has had more than a couple violent acts attributed to it and are a political movement. Further, I support the basic premise of the Black Lives matter movement however being a political movement when in uniform you can not endorse political movements. What kind of SH__storm would we see if these same Cadets showed up at a Trump rally in uniform?

Response by GySgt Steven Robeson made May 5 at 2016 11:26 AM

2016-05-05T11:26:56-04:00

Any political statement made in uniform is a UCMJ offense. If they want to put on tee shirts and flip-flops and go promote whatever issue it is that has them up in arms (pun intended). let them do it. But the second they do it in uniform or make reference to being in Armed Forces, thereby giving it appearance that the AFUS is supporting the issue, it's a UCMJ offense.

Response by SPC Thea Davis made May 5 at 2016 12:36 PM

2016-05-05T12:36:38-04:00

They should be demoted

Response by MSgt Rena Schmidt made May 5 at 2016 12:56 PM

2016-05-05T12:56:35-04:00

We are NOT allowed to do this type of thing while in uniform it is in the UCMJ.

Response by PVT John Williams made May 5 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-05-05T13:04:39-04:00

Suck it up buttercup. You're in the Army. Everybody is racist in one form or another.

Response by LTC Raymond Millen made May 5 at 2016 1:37 PM

2016-05-05T13:37:16-04:00

Cadets do dumb stuff, mostly trying to be funny. Some of my classmates (1982) decided it would be funny to dress in KKK outfits one night during the summer training at Camp Buckner. The pictures were later leaked to the press, and a scandal resulted. I give the above cadets the benefit of the doubt.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 5 at 2016 2:47 PM

2016-05-05T14:47:45-04:00

Wow, I can see this from both sides TBH. Tough call on this.

Response by A1C Melissa Jackson made May 5 at 2016 3:22 PM

2016-05-05T15:22:53-04:00

No.
How is this photograph any different than a sorority or other organization photo?
A hand held high in victory would seem appropriate for those who slogged through four years of West Point, don't you think?

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made May 5 at 2016 3:44 PM

2016-05-05T15:44:42-04:00

COL Sam Russell The comments in this topic that support these cadets and/or fail to see anything wrong with this picture/incident are humorous and show what is wrong with our PC/social-engineered military.

Does anybody really think that this picture does not project a racist connotation? What if it was a group of white cadets holding Confederate flags?

This is clearly unprofessional and the participants should be held accountable. Do I think anything will happen to them? No, not in Obama's world. This type behavior is encouraged by the Administration and it is no wonder it has permeated West Point. You would think these cadets would have more sense than this. Many of them probably got their appointments, in large measure, due to their race and they have the audacity to disgrace the institution with this type behavior. If I was in charge, they would all be packing their bags and fulfilling their commitments as enlisted soldiers.

Response by COL Sam Russell made May 5 at 2016 4:02 PM

2016-05-05T16:02:51-04:00

Here is another article on the topic... If you read no other article regarding the photograph in question, read this one. Well written, and very moving for someone--like me--who finds it difficult to put their feet into the shoes of a person of another race and gender.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/mary-tobin/this-is-not-about-a-fist/ [login to see] 340936

This is Not About a Fist

Response by A1C Melissa Jackson made May 5 at 2016 4:16 PM

2016-05-05T16:16:19-04:00

As I look over these comments- very much mostly white men- I am startled that everyone is so intensely-focused on the fists and the "sourpuss" looks on their faces. Aren't MOST formal military photographs taken in "straight face"? Mine was not (even though I intended to look tough) because the photographer said something funny about PDA right before she snapped the picture. I got a talking to (at high volume so everyone could enjoy it) from the TI about maintaining my military bearing!!

In any regard- I must admit that the photo worried me a little, too. Are those young cadets propping SWORDS upon their necks? Gracious! What kind of safety plan is THAT? I wish they would put those down before they get a shave they'll never forget!!! I'll bet their mothers had a FIT when they saw that.

Yep- no holding swords on your neck. That should be incorporated into the UCMJ if it is not there already. This way all you white men would have something to whine about, and those naughty cadets could loose their handsome swords, and walk those hours you mentioned below!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 4:30 PM

2016-05-05T16:30:20-04:00

all lives matter especially in combat

Response by CPO Frank Coluccio made May 5 at 2016 4:44 PM

2016-05-05T16:44:54-04:00

Violation of UCMJ? Don't know about that.
BUT, if it can be proven that it was a planned photo to show support to BLM, or and other political movement/figure, they would be violation of the "Hatch Act."

Response by SFC(P) John McLaughlin made May 5 at 2016 6:11 PM

2016-05-05T18:11:25-04:00

These are not kids. These are adults making choices whether right or wrong. We can all have our opinions but if they fall under the sane jurisdiction as all DOD does then let them see what what military justice is about.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made May 5 at 2016 6:44 PM

2016-05-05T18:44:59-04:00

Not sure. I need more info in order to provide some context. After that I can give a better answer.

Response by LTC Joseph George made May 5 at 2016 8:19 PM

2016-05-05T20:19:28-04:00

They all should be dropped from the rolls and sent home with a BCD. They do this in the active military and publicly disgrace those who perform a similar action. If they are to be kept, graduated and commissioned, a permanent GO reprimand should be placed in their files and never be promoted. The regulations apply to them as well, use it on them. This is why the discipline in the service is at a shit level. Every competent or so called competent leader is afraid of their own shadow. They hide behind the political system cowering to the ignorance of society.

Response by SPC James Harsh made May 5 at 2016 9:12 PM

2016-05-05T21:12:29-04:00

dunno dont care.. saw this video shared today and has similar hand language so if got confused with each other .. just sharing what saw earlier i didnt go looking for it

https://www.facebook.com/ModernRevolution/videos/ [login to see] 90543/

The Modern American Revolution | Facebook

Black Girl standing on US Flag as US Servicemen turn their back, literally, as it happens.Ladies and Gents, this is the poster child for stupidity....

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 5 at 2016 11:28 PM

2016-05-05T23:28:02-04:00

THIS IS WRONG as Two boys....No wait, I am retired and this is a new Army. All kidding aside this is wrong. As Soldiers we are to be above all this crap. Running the risk of being called names (and I really am not afraid of what anyone can type about me.) I would ask the "Black Lives Matter" folks, what part of "Obeying the Law Matters" do the majority of these folks that interacted with the Police not understand. By the way, more black lives are taken by black criminals in a weekend in Chicago or Detroit than have been taken by cops in years put together.

If you want to protest, TAKE OFF YOUR UNIFORM, find a job as a community organizer, and then go protest the Mayor of Chicago to put a stop to Black on Black crime before you crucify a cop that is trying to keep the peace.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 12:03 AM

2016-05-06T00:03:37-04:00

It's as clear as black and white . Wake up up you and smell the arm pit.
UCMJ let the Jag's do the job. Black Woman want to put their asses on the line , Let them .

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made May 6 at 2016 1:08 AM

2016-05-06T01:08:54-04:00

COL Sam Russell These are not 'kids', they are in their last year at West Point! In a moment, they will become commissioned officers with responsibilities! Aren't they using the same 'social media' negatively critiqued in the CSM Flournoy situation? West Point apparently failed to make definite impressions on these cadets!

Response by MSG Brian Wall made May 6 at 2016 1:12 AM

2016-05-06T01:12:09-04:00

A fist in the air. Ok. It seems to be iso blm. Is it admitted or confirmed that this is their message? If so then yes. It is not acceptable in military uniform. If you disagree with the regs, then the military may not be your forte' in life. Laws are made by congress for the general public. Military regs are made for those contracted in uniform. Follow the rules Soldiers. From the most menial of tasks to the most complex. You are held to a different standard. A higher standard. Being an officer means you accept that charge. Lead from the front! Black, White, Asian, European, Brown etc... If you are a US Military officer, you are an American citizen and a SOLDIER!!! Lead from the front!!!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 2:07 AM

2016-05-06T02:07:05-04:00

After reading all the responses, and in some cases calls for extreme punishments, I have to say that if these were LTs in my battalion, at most I would call them in and say "quit being knuckleheads on social media" remind them of the rules of political statements and the lack of privacy on the internet, and tell them to get back to work. If something as insignificant as this has become a reason for anything other than a verbal counselling, I feel sorry for what the Army has become.

Response by SGT David Emme made May 6 at 2016 2:14 AM

2016-05-06T02:14:02-04:00

It depends on intention. Was it intended to be a political statement for public consumption...then yes it is inappropriate. On the other hand it could also be a picture that was intended to be private for those participating...to not be published then i would say no.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made May 6 at 2016 6:42 AM

2016-05-06T06:42:48-04:00

Some have stated "kids will be kids". They are not children, they are 1st classmen at West Point and will soon be commissioned officers in the US Army expected to lead soldiers and defend the nation. Let's not tap dance around, we all know what the raised fist means and we sure don't need radicalization in the military of ANY form. The US taxpayers have paid for them to have a hell of good education and they need to get their heads out of their collective 6 or resign asap. I don't know if it is a violation of the UCMJ but it sure doesn't show judgment and leadership.

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made May 6 at 2016 7:32 AM

2016-05-06T07:32:37-04:00

While I believe their intent was to show solidarity for themselves - it takes a team to get through WP -- they showed poor judgment in the execution of the picture - perceptions can sometimes become reality. fairly or not. Give them some hours to walk off and move on.

Response by COL Sam Russell made May 6 at 2016 8:43 AM

2016-05-06T08:43:49-04:00

I suspect they'll be walking penalty tours until graduation. That being said...
I don't buy the comparison of a black person's raised fist to that of a Nazi salute. I hate comparisons to Nazis or Hitler, as not even Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge stacked up to the systematic mass extermination that the Nazis exacted. Perhaps only Josef Stalin rises to that level. A raised fist by a group of black women on the threshold of graduation from USMA--no comparison.
I also hate the comparison with a bunch of white southerners with a rebel flag or kkk hoods. One represents anti-union, pro-slavery sentiments that resulted in 650,000 American deaths, the other has at times been an American terrorist organization bent on subjugating a race of people through murder, intimidation, and denial of rights guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution. BLM, BP, BLA, as offensive as those groups may be to some, they are not in the same infamous league as the Confederate Army or the KKK.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe the DoD or DoA have classified a black raised fist as a racist symbol. I also doubt the USMA administration could show intent of either a political statement, or a racist statement. About the only thing they could hold these women accountable for is bringing discredit to the Academy. In the politically charged environment that is this election year, there is no way the current executive administration would tolerate USMA or DoD denying every African American female senior at USMA from graduating or being commissioned.
Not gonna happen. Nor should it.
There is a great learning opportunity here for these women, and I am sure that the USMA administration will bring that lesson home. In the end, these women will be better officers for it.

Response by SSG Donald King made May 6 at 2016 9:04 AM

2016-05-06T09:04:06-04:00

I don't know about violating the UCMJ but I do know if the cadets had been white it would have been looked at differently as a hate issue probably. The KKK uses this type of symbol. White or black it's not proper in any fashion while in uniform and of very bad taste even out of uniform. It just offends to many people. When I was in the Army we just looked at everyone as being green, not white, black, brown or any other color. I do believe the picture was of bad taste. As a former Equal Opportunity Representative in my last unit in the Army I would just say it should not have been posted in social media and there should be some kind of consequence. Maybe some additional EO training, not dismissal. I have to remember this is a new time and we now have a very different Army.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 6 at 2016 9:10 AM

2016-05-06T09:10:24-04:00

COL Sam Russell this is tough but after sitting on this for a day I'd say the photo merits punishment. Though imagine the PR issues USMA will deal with if and when they do hand down a punishment...especially if these ladies do not graduate on time in a few weeks.

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made May 6 at 2016 10:59 AM

2016-05-06T10:59:20-04:00

My first impression is I do not like the photo. We are all green does not come across with the fight the power/Black Panther symbol of fist up. Perhaps, a 20 mile force march with pack while holding their arm and fists in the air will cure this type of photo in the future.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made May 6 at 2016 11:02 AM

2016-05-06T11:02:25-04:00

No. BLM is an activist "movement". They have no set leadership, no set chapters, and most of the time when someone "claims" BLM they're NOT BLM. Had BLM been a political party, or an arm of a political party THEN yes they would clearly be in violation. "Soldier of Steel" if this is who I think it is, he should just go away and be quiet. He had no issues complaining in uniform about not making SFC and how bad the Army was since he did what he "thought" was "required" to make rank. He got out. I've been kicked down SO hard, I thought down was up! I had REAL NCO's who grabbed my collar, slapped me at parade rest, and practiced PLF's in my ass. Those NCO's made me stay the course and NOT QUIT. So maybe in this situation this "Soldier of Steel" is actually a "Soldier of Weakness or fortune". NCO's know good and damn well that not everyone will make it to the SNCO ranks. It's a fact of life. Do we quit and say "fuck it" I don't want to play anymore? Hells naw. Put your damn pride in your pocket, readjust your damn attitude, and figure out how to help someone ELSE make it where you couldn't. I don't blame anyone BUT myself for not making it, and I DAMN sure won't make videos stating otherwise. Are these the future leaders we want leading our troops? HELLS YEAH. They stayed the course, saw it to the end, and will graduate and continue on leading until either they reach the end of their contracts, or retire with dignity.

BTW "Soldier of Steel"....those "Ladies" in that picture are SOLDIERS. Maybe you should learn basic terms and realize that they fucking EARNED that right to be called SOLDIERS! Get over yourself clown.

Response by 2LT Christopher (Beacham) Magee made May 6 at 2016 11:14 AM

2016-05-06T11:14:51-04:00

nope. Just a group of 20 something college students acting like knuckleheads. Showed improper judgement and gave the wrong impression. Punishment: 100 walking tours then they can belong to the "infamous Century Club"

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 12:14 PM

2016-05-06T12:14:34-04:00

only if a person is white are they wrong.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made May 6 at 2016 12:16 PM

2016-05-06T12:16:14-04:00

Think this is a clear yes.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made May 6 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-05-06T13:04:44-04:00

While it will be explained away and forgotten fairly soon, Sir it is my belief it was a very stupid thing to do at that Institution given the time and effort put forth to get to their current level. Regardless of the PC movement it shows a lack of critical thinking and understanding 2nd and 3rd order effects. Considering the path our military is taking these days this will not be the exception but the norm very soon.

Response by MSG Jay Jackson made May 6 at 2016 1:11 PM

2016-05-06T13:11:52-04:00

There are several violations in this picture. First they are standing on the railing with swords. Clearly they did not do a risk assessment, and think of measures to lower the risk, they do not have on a safety harness to catch them if they lose balance and fall. This is required by OSHA if you are working a certain height above the ground. But his being Hudson High ERRRR,,, West Point I have complete confidence that they know, and follow all relevant regulations/policies. Ok I was trying to be funny, but these future leaders need to explain what they mean. If you leave it to us to figure out your meaning,, well you get all kinds of scenarios. I feel quite sure though that there are no future MacArthur’s, Patton’s or Eisenhower’s in that group.

Response by LTC Joe Nelson made May 6 at 2016 1:21 PM

2016-05-06T13:21:10-04:00

The military is not a social experiment! They may express their views in their "off duty" time while "NOT" in uniform. As potential officers, they must realize the meaning of "good order and discipline" and the ramifications if this tenant is broken.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 1:21 PM

2016-05-06T13:21:16-04:00

For my two cents worth I am going to focus on what I know. I know that an investigation is being launched to determine if anything wrong happened as a result of the picture. I know that if you never fully knew the DoD directive, it should be fully known now. I know that there are 16 ladies who know exactly why they posed for a picture with their fists raised and I'm sure that they have been instructed to only talk to certain people. I know that this is probably not the last time that I will see this picture. It will probably be integrated into various types of Army training. I know that here in a month or longer, that we will all move on to another news story and however anyone felt about this will be forgotten. I know that however you feel or think about this picture it manifests into your reality, meaning if you think their gesture supports the BLM movement, it becomes your interpretation just like if someone sees this as a way to show pride in their race or gender. It's important for everyone to remember that as individuals we interpret things in our own way so your opinion is not greater than anyone else's. I know that some people still only view the military as black and white instead of viewing their branches as one team. I know when I look at my coworkers I dont see their skin color or ethnicity, I see a group of teammates who are good at what they do. I know now that a picture is literally worth a thousand words because I have read about 1,000 different views on RallyPoint and the Army Times page on Facebook. Let's focus on things that we actually know instead of dividing ourselves about what we think we know.

Response by Cpl James Waycasie made May 6 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-05-06T13:49:26-04:00

Laws, rules, and regulations are in place for a reason and we all know it. Violations need to be corrected. The problem today is the USA is so politically correct that our Leaders everywhere are too scared to enforce them for certain people.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-05-06T13:49:43-04:00

The reality is this photo was a bad idea, and may come back to haunt these cadets if they choose to make the military a career. While I don't think they acted in good judgment it will be hard to bring for disciplinary action under the UCMJ.
Another point of note is I find it funny the amount of people "offended" by this photo. I wonder what reactions these same people had to the events that were the actual catalyst to the BLM group. I am more offended by unarmed citizens being murdered by law enforcement, than a photo of some 22 year olds raising their fists. Maybe my priorities are different.

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made May 6 at 2016 2:12 PM

2016-05-06T14:12:48-04:00

They are in direct violation of UCMJ, this is conduct unbecoming to say the very least. These "future leaders" have placed their inability to see through color on full display for the entire world to see and they should be discharged and disqualified from service the same as a white Cadet would be for participating in a Neo-Nazi rally. These kids have disrespected every woman who has fought for their right to wear the uniform. Could you imagine the outrage if those women were blonde haired, blue eyed white girls with their arms and fingers extended at a 45-degree angle? The sex/race card is out of control.

Response by A1C Charles D Wilson made May 6 at 2016 4:21 PM

2016-05-06T16:21:17-04:00

So I may be out of line saying this ...but This should be corrected and adjusted. After seeing all the images of the people holding the same stance and stepping upon our flag in the past couple of years makes the average person would question ones agenda doing the same stance while in uniform and being under oath for said country that flies this flag. Sorry if this may sound questionable but my brain does not function well today as it did 20+ years ago. (Not a dead head just mentally drained from chronic pain).

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 4:31 PM

2016-05-06T16:31:38-04:00

From the ArmyTimes:

West Point is investigating a photo that shows 16 black female cadets in uniform displaying raised fists outside a U.S. Military Academy barracks.

“We can confirm that the cadets in this photo are members of the U.S. Military Academy's Class of 2016,” said West Point’s director of public affairs Lt. Col. Christopher Kasker in an emailed statement. “Academy officials are conducting an inquiry into the matter. "While many details are unknown about the photo, the image has been shared widely in military circles, with claims the women are supporting the Black Lives Matter movement.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 4:33 PM

2016-05-06T16:33:03-04:00

I would counsel (might be to strong a word, maybe openly and honestly talk to) these young leaders in development on how perceptions can become reality, fairly or not, and that actions can have significant consequences especially when using social media, as can be seen by the uproar that occurred over the photo. I would also ask them their thoughts on having soldiers they will lead do something similar in nature especially if that something could be found offensive by some. This is a good chance to instill the lesson that as a leader you can not enforce discipline or establish a rule if you first are not bound by that discipline or rule.

I would also have a discussion with them about what the raised fist symbol means to different people around the world and how it will be difficult for them to separate their feelings as black women to various subjects and their duties as members of the US military especially as an officer in the military.

Another good discussion point is how it is ok to support various groups to include Black Lives Matter in your personal time but as soon as you are on duty this is inappropriate (I know you are always supposed to be on duty but let's be honest, what you do in the comfort of your house is your business unless it is a violation of national security, talking to you spies). How will your soldiers, especially non-black soldiers, feel and act if they saw that you publicly and in uniform supported Black Lives Matters? Would they be supportive? Would they be offended? Would they feel that you will now discriminate against them even if there is zero evidence that you would discriminate? I would then flip the discussion to how would they feel and how would they react to a company CAPT who has a confederate flag on his/her truck in the parking lot.

Bottom line, I would take this as an opportunity to make this a learning point about perceptions and how they can affect your relationships with your troops.

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made May 6 at 2016 4:51 PM

2016-05-06T16:51:33-04:00

Allow me to be frank, the candy assing around the facts here is disgusting. They are in clear violation of UCMJ. If those stairs were covered with blonde haired, blue eyed, white women throwing up their right arm in a heil salute this would be on every news channel and every newspaper in the world. They should all be suspended from the academy and disqualified from service in the military. These "future leaders" have publicly demonstrated racial bias while in uniform.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 6 at 2016 6:04 PM

2016-05-06T18:04:35-04:00

Yes and I am positive that the appropriate disciplinary action is being taken, or has already. Remeber these are college students, it will likely not be there last mistake. I am sure that they will go on to become stellar officers in their chosen field.

Response by Capt Michael Greene made May 6 at 2016 6:28 PM

2016-05-06T18:28:28-04:00

This is a demonstration of partisan politics. Being senior cadets, they are under contract to the service. Being West Point cadets under contract, they are subject to the punitive articles of the UCMJ, Articles 77-134 (see Art 2). These cadets can be subject to Art 15 or CM for publicly displaying signs of partisan politics. Also, while DoD Directive 1325.6 says it is DoD policy to preserve military members' "right of expression," the demonstration must be out of uniform and off-base. So, three strikes against these cadets.
Even if it weren't against the law, it's still stupid. Who wants a stupid officer? (But I could be wrong, Eisenhower and Doolittle did some pretty stupid stuff, too.)
I hope leadership showed them the error of their ways pretty quickly.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 8:15 PM

2016-05-06T20:15:44-04:00

That is divisive! IMHO

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 9:55 PM

2016-05-06T21:55:25-04:00

Q: What was the context in which they were raising their fists?
I'm not asking to be a smartass COL, only asking because the picture shows no caption.

Response by COL John McClellan made May 6 at 2016 10:19 PM

2016-05-06T22:19:42-04:00

Edgy, yes; not sure it crosses the line. Clearly, it's in uniform and you could make a strong argument that they are violating the spirit, if not the letter of the regulation. On the other hand - when are USMA Cadets EVER out of uniform? If the problem is real, and it's about behavior manifesting inside their ranks or inside the walls at USMA, then maybe this was their only recourse, short of resignation. If I were the Commandant of Cadets or the IG up there, those in the picture might warrant a reprimand yes, and some re-training on Army Values and the statues involved here. And then I'd be thinking long and hard about whether there's a bigger issue at here. Maybe they're off-base, and MAYBE...they aren't; and nobody's been listening. The article says there were many sessions with senior leaders about the issue before this happened. Were they taken seriously?

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made May 7 at 2016 12:05 AM

2016-05-07T00:05:52-04:00

I've read the other article from facebook. Indeed well written and with some possibly valid points. I say possibly as I have not had the honor of attending the USMA at West Point or any other service school.

In the end it is only an attempt to justify the actions of others. I don't give a damn what color you are, what God you worship, who you sleep with, how you spend your money or anything else. The only thing(s) that matter are that you adhere to the established honor code as that represents your integrity. Without that, anything else is meaningless. You must perform to your utmost best. I don't care you are not a straight A student (I know I wasn't). As long as you gave it your all is what I look for in a cadet (Leader).

Your job as the new wave of officers is to learn your job, perform your job, be a leader. You are not there to voice your opposition to what you think is wrong (You can fight that through channels like everyone else). As one of America's next generation of leaders, you need to lead, not make excuses for someone else. There is no room for that. Like the old adage, Lead, Follow or get the hell out of the way.

If you wish to tackle anything you perceive as an injustice, do so on your own time and stop detracting from the reason you were allowed the opportunity to attend one of the most prestigious establishments of higher education and military leadership.

You can put lipstick on a pig but it doesn't change the fact it's still a pig. Suck it up cupcake, you can do this.

Response by SGT Allen Brunner made May 7 at 2016 9:44 AM

2016-05-07T09:44:11-04:00

Weather you like what they are doing or not is immaterial. We as Soldiers, and especially West Point Cadets must honor the commitment that they raised their right hand for. Everyone has an opinion on whatever the topic is, but at the end of the day we are all still soldiers. you have to trust your leaders, and the leaders trust the troops to have their back when we go into a hostile situation. To me "All Lives Matter" I do not care what color you are, ethnic background, political affiliation, or anything that doesn't pertain to the mission. I have had leaders who were different ethnic background, and I would have followed them to the gates of hell if they wanted to go their. You want to voice your opinion go ahead, but do it out of uniform and on your own time. Not in uniform and so obviously expressing and political and racial opinion.

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made May 7 at 2016 12:40 PM

2016-05-07T12:40:04-04:00

I don't see the problem with it!

Response by SFC Wade W. made May 7 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-05-07T13:07:26-04:00

When wearing the uniform of the Armed Forces you no longer have the right to do anything that may be percieved as political in nature. Unfortunately, many have been to political rallies, supported one candidate over another or been seen shaking hands with candidates while in uniform. This policy has not been enforced with a strong enough fervor in the past but that does not excuse these cadets and their behavior. If they choose to serve after their initial obligation it is best they learn now that there are consequences for even the percieved wrongs, no matter what the original intent.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made May 7 at 2016 1:09 PM

2016-05-07T13:09:48-04:00

That is interesting that my classmate Brenda Sue Fulton has waded into the fray about this picture SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL She was speaking "an alum" not in any leadership capacity.
As far as a claim that this is an old corps photo, the only things old corps about it is the location in front of one of the older buildings and the crossed sabers which are not included in this version of the picture.
The raised fists were something associated with the black power movement of the 1960s and then became more radicalized when the Black panthers adopted that pose. The full dress gray uniform was modified by 1976 when I entered the US Military Academy as part of the class of 1980 which was the first to include women - so uniforms had to be modified.
There has been a lot of discussion about this picture among my classmates with some jokingly indicating it honors Michael Jackson.
USMA cadets like others in military uniform are prohibited from making political statements in the uniform of the US military or attending political events in uniform unless on official duty such as MPs, SPs, etc. Prohibited statements include what we do while in uniform. The Nazi salute is an example of something which brings discredit upon the military if somebody performs it in public.

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made May 7 at 2016 1:19 PM

2016-05-07T13:19:17-04:00

The last 7 years of the current administration has increased division based on race in America. The military has always been a reflection of culture. I see some of the racial division going on in society in this all black ladies picture of fist held up.
Perhaps, if everyone on active duty was made to wear green face paint and given an order we are all green. Racial division would no longer be an issue until a veteran is within the civilian puke environment.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made May 7 at 2016 1:26 PM

2016-05-07T13:26:25-04:00

COL Sam Russell there has been a lot of discussion about this photo. My West Point class forum has discussing it for a few days. Earlier I responded to a post after my classmate Brenda Sue Fulton who currently chairs the U.S. Military Academy’s Board of Visitors weighed into the fray "The controversial photo of 16 black female cadets raising their fists was just one of dozens of images the women took as part of a long-held West Point tradition, according to Brenda Sue Fulton."
As far as a claim that this is an old corps photo, the only things old corps about it is the location in front of one of the older buildings and the crossed sabers which are not included in this version of the picture.
The raised fists were something associated with the black power movement of the 1960s and then became more radicalized when the Black panthers adopted that pose. The full dress gray uniform was modified by 1976 when I entered the US Military Academy as part of the class of 1980 which was the first to include women - so uniforms had to be modified.
There has been a lot of discussion about this picture among my classmates with some jokingly indicating it honors Michael Jackson.
USMA cadets like others in military uniform are prohibited from making political statements in the uniform of the US military or attending political events in uniform unless on official duty such as MPs, SPs, etc. Prohibited statements include what we do while in uniform. The Nazi salute is an example of something which brings discredit upon the military if somebody performs it in public.
Thanks for mentioning me CPT L S

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 1:52 PM

2016-05-07T13:52:52-04:00

Perception is everything.... It doesn't bother me but everything has to be equal. I could open a can of worms but it wouldn't change anything.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made May 7 at 2016 1:53 PM

2016-05-07T13:53:47-04:00

Agree with LTC Stephen F. views of the photo which explains why I for one was greatly taken back by it. As someone said 'perception is reality' and being a survivor of the horrible racial strife in the US which spilled over into the armed services back in the same time frame, an image like that gives me the creeps to see raised again in this day and age. The 'old corps' photos of past years always brought a sense of unity, loyalty, and pride among the Corps of Cadets. The below photos is taken from the same article as the one above and I feel more aptly displays the virtues sought to be displayed in traditional photos.

Response by MSgt Ken "Airsoldier" Collins-Hardy made May 7 at 2016 3:35 PM

2016-05-07T15:35:21-04:00

Great question COL Russell. Because belief systems are diverse and tend to induce parochial historiographies and symbolisms (i.e., Operational Intelligence (OPINT) and Imagery Intelligence IMINT) of discord, I'll delay offering my beliefs until the end and start by framing my response with the aphorism, "One man's civil rights is another man's human rights."

In the following link please find OPINT and IMINT addressing a similar protest incident that occurred with American Olympians Tommie Smith and John Carlos; and Australian Olympian Peter Norman during the 1968 Olympics at Mexico City. It provides a prescient warning that this OPREP-3 Incident/Event will probably uncover findings of UMCJ violations, if history repeats itself. http://www.josephclan.com/tjblog/?p=1522.

Although I believe the "Black Power" and "Black Lives Matter" dialectics used in tandem with the historic fist-raising imagery is divisive, my earliest memory of its use is during the 1970's by a group of disenfranchised American revolutionaries, namely "Black Panthers," who were politicizing their struggle for "Human Rights.” However, due to Rockefeller-indoctrinated leadership and social systems leveraged by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and forces not so explicable, the disenfranchised were outmaneuver into into settling for “Civil Rights,” which according to activist lawyer Michelle Alexander (2010) has proven to be a new caste system that offers advantages only the few that "toe the line" in sustaining the civil-right psychological operation (PSYOP). These West Point first classmen fail to realize that they've given up human rights given by God or natural law in place of civil rights provided by the state or the republic that is educating them for military service. https://www.solidarity-us.org/site/node/2189

I also believe that these West Point first classmen are the new freedom fighters, who, armed with the right public relations (PR) spin or Information Operation (IO) support, represent solidarity for global human rights, creating a "win-win" situation for both America and West Point. Unfortunately, although they've demonstrate the leadership will, without the appropriate IO support they forfeit the psychological wealth and weaponry to achieve their objective—and all three tools are necessary for real changes in progressive human rights. In the meantime UCMJ is designed to sustain the American civil-rights PSYSOP, not political statements of sixteen West Point first classmen. This is the wrong attire and wrong forum. http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/cendy/glossary.pdf

An iconic moment in the history of the Olympics « Rana's Reflections, Ruminations & Recollections...

For the most part, I have only a passing interest in sports. During my years in Kenya and later in the UK, I was interested in cricket but that faded over the years after I moved to the US. However, I have maintained a sustained interest in the Olympics – an interest that commenced with the Melbourne games in 1956 when I lived in Kenya. It was my mother who got me interested – she, too had only a passing interest in most sports except when it...

Response by COL Eric Rojo made May 7 at 2016 4:04 PM

2016-05-07T16:04:30-04:00

can anyone prove, other than the yellow scandal loving press, that these cadets really intended to make a political statement?
can anyone brush off 4 years of hard studies and training and living under our most precios value "Duty Honor Country"?
whoever is promoting this photo as a political statement must be shamed in his/her attempt to damage and embarrass this senior cadets and soon to be officers of the United States Army.

Response by MAJ Andrew Ready made May 7 at 2016 4:58 PM

2016-05-07T16:58:00-04:00

It's offensive. They should all be disciplined.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made May 7 at 2016 5:13 PM

2016-05-07T17:13:18-04:00

Personally, I think we should celebrate that these young women decided to attend a predominantly all white, male institution. I have no idea what they went through as cadets first and black females second. But I am sure it was more difficult than most others. What I dislike is people calling them thugs and other names. I give them all the respect.

Response by Capt Adam Saxe made May 7 at 2016 5:22 PM

2016-05-07T17:22:13-04:00

Sir, I don't know the exact language of the UCMJ statutes that govern political activity in uniform, but I just always went by the dictum, "Don't do it." The raised black fist certainly carries a political connotation, but a couple hundred years of white supremacy (to include a segregated Army) was also inherently political. If, today in 2016, the "black power salute" is associated w/ Black Lives Matter, then--again--the gesture is inherently political.

But the next question is . . . what to do about it? For some context, let's remember A) these cadets are kids. Kids with far more responsibility and expectations placed upon them, but still college kids nonetheless. College kids get wrapped up in emotion and passion--and that's part of the university experience. B) More importantly, how many snide comments or outright blatant political statements/displays were made by folks in uniform & at work about Presidents Clinton? And not by just 22 year olds, but career field grade officers and senior NCOs!

The military is political, inherently--war is politics by other means, right? But it cannot be partisan. Leadership has to instill this in every service-member from cadet to E-1 to O-6 (one would hope our generals understand this, though MacArthur apparently did not).

If it were up to me, I would give these ladies an unofficial talk-to (a counseling, I suppose you could call it) that just reminds them of all the above. After all, they may encounter a Private Snuffy (or LT Snuffy, for all that matter when they're CPTs and MAJs) who is making political statements in uniform and on duty. They are going to have to step up and call him out on it.

Anyway, my 2 cents. I was never a JAG.

Response by CPT John Sheridan made May 7 at 2016 7:15 PM

2016-05-07T19:15:44-04:00

Oh look! Clearly they are expressing their solidarity with the Dear Leader!

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made May 7 at 2016 7:56 PM

2016-05-07T19:56:55-04:00

In the past this action would not be acceptable, but with the changing times and Donald Trump doing what he does, it's now ok. Amazing!

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 7 at 2016 9:16 PM

2016-05-07T21:16:58-04:00

All I see is a bunch of young, inexperienced adults giving a "Black Power" salute. Political? No. Racist? Possibly! But... no one would see it that way, or would they accept a group of Caucasian Cadets giving a "Nazi" salute.

Response by CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols made May 7 at 2016 9:18 PM

2016-05-07T21:18:26-04:00

Until they are commissioned chew their a$$es out and take appropriate action per the school. Do not ruin a career over college foolishness...

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 9:18 PM

2016-05-07T21:18:37-04:00

I don't see a political statement, unless posing for pictures on a stoop is suddenly being frowned upon now.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 3:25 AM

2016-05-08T03:25:20-04:00

According to the dictionary, this is the meaning of racism (racism).
The belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them. In the United States, racism, particularly by whites against blacks, has created profound racial tension and conflict in virtually all aspects of American society. Until the breakthroughs achieved by the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s, white domination over blacks was institutionalized and supported in all branches and levels of government, by denying blacks their civil rights and opportunities to participate in political, economic, and social communities (p.1). I believe we have tried to down play racism and dilute what racism really is to fit people's on perspective of racism. Racism can't be diluted, we will call it what it is, and leave it at that. The cadets are not displaying racism point, blank, and period. To equate symbolism of the clinched fist with the Neo Nazi or KKK is mind boggling and quite a long reach. A long reach, probably the distance from the sun to the earth, which is 92.95 million miles. That's a very far reach to equate these cadets to other hate groups. To conclude, I would refer back to the definition of racism and let's just keep it at that. The cadet's are not displaying racism at all, because the clearly do not have a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

Reference
racism. (n.d.). The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Retrieved May 08, 2016 from Dictionary.com website http://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism

the definition of racism

Racism definition, a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others. See more.

Response by SFC Richard Caroll made May 8 at 2016 11:08 AM

2016-05-08T11:08:42-04:00

They are violating the regulations against making a political statement while in uniform. If their political beliefs are so important to them that their oaths, maybe they are in the wrong profession, and should become politicians instead.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made May 8 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-05-08T11:11:20-04:00

“Different teams and groups get together on their own to mimic the high-collar, ultra-serious, photos of 19th century cadets,” she explained of the tradition.
Fulton knows some of the women personally.

If this is the case then simply show us the 19th century photo of Cadets doing the same thing. If they can show that picture that these Cadets are mimicking then I see no issues, although it's still a very sketchy pose to make in this day and age. An old photo of cadets doing what is now the Nazi/White Supremacy salute wouldn't have thrown up flags either back then but after WWII obviously everyone knows it's meaning and knows not to do it.

Response by GySgt Ray Wyatt made May 8 at 2016 1:30 PM

2016-05-08T13:30:53-04:00

Eric Holder is so proud of his followers....

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-05-08T13:49:29-04:00

Kick them before they go poisoning people's minds with BLM bull.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 1:59 PM

2016-05-08T13:59:43-04:00

If this is as bad as it looks, this is also how gangs are created and brought in. I've seen it once before.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 2:09 PM

2016-05-08T14:09:04-04:00

People saying that these are kids and kids dumb stuff. yes, but these are supposed to be different kids after four years at the academy. This is someone's new PL who just a few months prior was flashing this stuff. What if their PSG is white, will they get a fair shake? Maybe, maybe not.

Response by SGT Chris Hill made May 8 at 2016 2:27 PM

2016-05-08T14:27:45-04:00

I don't see how that's any better than throwin up gang signs. If whites were in a picture giving a KKK sign, all hell would break loose, so why is the BLM hate group allowed to do so? I'd hope that they get repercussions for this, and if not, they just set a whole new army standard loophole. Sickening that group of "LTs" are going to lead one day. Just wait until a soldier finds them in this pic at a unit.

Response by COL Jeff Williams made May 8 at 2016 2:30 PM

2016-05-08T14:30:49-04:00

For what it is worth, USMA had cleared the group of any wrong doing

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made May 8 at 2016 3:16 PM

2016-05-08T15:16:22-04:00

I believe that we are not allowed to make personal political statements while in uniform. We have the right to our personal opinions, but are supposed to be apolitical with respect to our military service. Combining politics and the military almost always makes for a really toxic brew. Throw in the aftermath of recent violent events in several U.S. cities, and this whole issue could get ugly. I think that everyone involved will sooner or later wish they had NOT made this photograph.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 3:18 PM

2016-05-08T15:18:13-04:00

If this is acceptable, then doesn't it allow a bunch of white cadets the right to do a Nazi salute.

Response by SGM Lonnie Durand made May 8 at 2016 4:05 PM

2016-05-08T16:05:32-04:00

Yes, they probably are. I don't think these young ladies should face a career ender for this but they need to learn an enduring lesson about this type of stuff so that they remember it when dealing across ethnic lines as commanders. Every time something like this raised its head when I was AD, "perception" was important, they need to understand that. It is not what you mean, it is how it is perceived. These young ladies will lead Soldiers from all over the US and from different backgrounds, this type of photo can send the wrong message about judgement. One of the articles in defense of this spoke of the history of raising the fist and justification and pride in black history, now I'm not a Southerner but the Stars and Bars are historical and people attack their display constantly. People can't have it both ways, either something is or it isn't, there is no yeah, but; a standard is a standard.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made May 8 at 2016 4:40 PM

2016-05-08T16:40:04-04:00

What is the definition of a partisan or non-partisan political club? Is support for Black Lives Matter any different from those in uniform who openly supported LGBT rights? Would people on here be as upset if they had done something to show support for "Blue Lives Matter"? I think we need to look our own prejudices and see if those are getting in the way of how we view this. I see a lot of people making judgements on a group of cadets they do not even know. I suggest that we let them get to their units and let their Soldiers judge them based solely on the leadership they provide to those Soldiers.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-05-08T18:10:13-04:00

Give them the UCMJ, they know what they're doing. Clearly they don't care about their careers, why should we?!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 6:29 PM

2016-05-08T18:29:38-04:00

This women fisting has got to stop before someone gets hurt! But close analysis shows her knuckles are facing towards her head rather than out, so this may be the Knucklehead Salute rather than any other one.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made May 8 at 2016 6:31 PM

2016-05-08T18:31:30-04:00

I find it ridiculous that anyone raising a "power" fist is suddenly a supporter of any movement. I don't have the context in which their photo is framed. If they're making a political statement, then they need to be dealt with in accordance with military rules and regulations. If it's misguided solidarity then address it. This symbol has been used by many factions and to jump the shark by assigning them to a particular group is nonsense. If there is some subversive conspiracy that allowed 16 black women to enter the USMA in order to disrupt something, quash it. Has West Point identified any disruptive behavior caused by them or is this simply a bunch of ladies who are proud of their accomplishments. I hope people think of this when they fist-bump. What you're doing is the same thing, a sign of togetherness, be it brotherhood or sisterhood.

Response by TSgt Jennifer Disch made May 8 at 2016 6:44 PM

2016-05-08T18:44:54-04:00

Ok. They are not on Active Duty. Comparing them to their white counterparts is apples to oranges. This is a great accomplishment. At least they aren't twerking like America expects them too. Get over it.

Response by TSgt Jennifer Disch made May 8 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-05-08T18:49:28-04:00

Let's talk about the sexual assaults at these academies that are swept under the rug. Hmmmmm......

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-05-08T19:08:30-04:00

Wow , everyone is avoiding this like the plague . Call it what it is " black lives matter supporters " in uniform . You can support what ever you want but not in uniform. All lives matter and that's what people fail to realize. I bet if it was a different ethnic group it would be fround upon .

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 7:09 PM

2016-05-08T19:09:48-04:00

I see Rascism in Canada against my Native/Aboriginal Wife by white trash Canadians who forget who came here 10,000 years before Leif Erikson and Christopher Columbus. I just think it is risky to do this. This is not 1968. Yes, I have seen the officer- involved shootings done in cold blood against blacks. I empathize. I just think this is not the West Point of the Jim Crow days. Look at others who did the fist and do you want to be associated with Black Pathers or Communists? See Jane Fonda below/above...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 7:12 PM

2016-05-08T19:12:57-04:00

Jane Fonda's leftist salute. Its a different context but the fist makes one or them look bad. Jane Fonda is a Socialist that wishes the USA was communist back in 1972. It does not help the BLM movement since perception is reality.

Response by SPC Jeffrey Reese made May 8 at 2016 7:30 PM

2016-05-08T19:30:47-04:00

Here is my 2 cents they are wrong and should be immediately counseled and reprimanded. They are there to defend the lives of all Americans. Not just Black lives or White lives or Native Americans But all Americans. While in uniform they should not be distinguishing between races but seeing soldiers. This kind of thing damages their credibility with their soldiers. When they assume their positions in their units you know they will have soldiers of different races under them and this will only cause tension with those soldiers feeling their super visor doesn't have their back because they aren't Black. Which will cause poor ratings and lack of communication when soldiers don't trust their leaders. Officers or not this kind of action is not acceptable and I really find it hard to believe that any good officer would be trying to find ways to condone it. If they want to send a message it should be ALL lives matter and not to divide the Races further but to do things to end the divide and to show solidarity in the ranks. This is coming from a soldier that when he was in they wouldn't have put up with this mess it would have already have been dealt with no questions Black, White doesn't matter.

Response by SGT Tommy Silvas made May 8 at 2016 7:44 PM

2016-05-08T19:44:10-04:00

BIG DEAL LEAVE THEM ALONE

Response by PO3 Chris Scheide made May 8 at 2016 9:35 PM

2016-05-08T21:35:27-04:00

It would appear that they are. It will be interesting to see how the investigation turns out. If they are, then they should be flunked out before we invest any more money in them. If they want to pull stuff like this perhaps they should do it at private university while they foot the bill.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made May 8 at 2016 10:00 PM

2016-05-08T22:00:29-04:00

I won't pretend to know their intentions. However, if it is being interpreted as a political statement, they knew or should have known that was a possibility.

Response by GySgt Paul Nichols made May 8 at 2016 10:03 PM

2016-05-08T22:03:31-04:00

We really shouldn't be looking at this from the here and now.

Will this have an effect on some PFC under one of their command? My guess is that some PFC Smuck will claim that his or her Lieutenant is a racist to get out of some detail or just to spite the Officer.

Response by PO2 Robert Cuminale made May 8 at 2016 10:12 PM

2016-05-08T22:12:36-04:00

I don't understand the concern over this. After DADT was repealed military personnel marched in Gay Pride parades in uniform and nothing was said about it. If anything is political it is a Gay Pride parade.

Response by SFC Antonio Nieto made May 8 at 2016 10:31 PM

2016-05-08T22:31:02-04:00

Are really going to start enforcing the UCMJ now, first define to me what a political statement is, if they were making one I never even noticed, it is to an individual to make an interpretation of what the other is doing, are they affiliated to a particular political group

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 11:37 PM

2016-05-08T23:37:25-04:00

Not per say but are close to the line and really shouldn't be engaging in this activity. As a Senior FGO best advice I got in Command leadership school has been if you got to ask more than once about whether its right or will be called into question then you probably shouldn't do it. The fact that two pics were taken (as confirmed in a similar article in Washington Post - one with the fists upraised and one without) suggest that there may have been some question as to if this was a good choice. Otherwise why not just have one picture taken and posted for West Point to celebrate this event-their graduation?

As a officer/leaders appearances DO matter and this should not have been "advised" by their mentor especially while in uniform. Unfortunately social medial and reality tv that many millennials embrace is a dual aged sword now a days! They act without thinking and then have their actions spread far beyond the often initial intended reach!

Response by CPL Ricky Vasquez made May 9 at 2016 12:44 AM

2016-05-09T00:44:31-04:00

All Lives Matter...

Response by SSG Wesley Peck made May 9 at 2016 2:39 AM

2016-05-09T02:39:14-04:00

The public hasn't been given enough background information to come to a intelligent opinion. Did they violate a DOD Directive? Sure...but many of us have, as well. What was the real statement they were making? What was/is their intent? Was there an event or occurrence that promulgated this? Before we call 911, we need more 411.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made May 9 at 2016 7:03 AM

2016-05-09T07:03:31-04:00

Trouble for what?

Response by COL Sam Russell made May 9 at 2016 7:55 AM

2016-05-09T07:55:36-04:00

The story just hit the national and international media with this Fox news article.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/05/09/west-point-investigating-black-female-cadets-raised-fists-photo.html

West Point investigating black female cadets' raised-fists photo | Fox News

The U.S. Military Academy has launched an inquiry into a photo showing 16 black, female cadets in uniform with their fists raised, an image that has spurred questions about whether the gesture violates military restrictions on political activity.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 8:22 AM

2016-05-09T08:22:41-04:00

It could mean many different things... This is not even the tip of the iceberg. I feel the focus is on things that don't matter or if they they are very minor. There are plenty of things I don't understand and double standards at least from my point of view.

Response by LCDR Terry Hall made May 9 at 2016 9:08 AM

2016-05-09T09:08:01-04:00

Yes they did. Obviously they didn't get the 4 years of the proper conduct of an officer "while in uniform"....bye bye

Response by CPT Russell Pitre made May 9 at 2016 9:48 AM

2016-05-09T09:48:30-04:00

I this throw this book at them.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made May 9 at 2016 10:17 AM

2016-05-09T10:17:04-04:00

Definitely prejudicial to good order and discipline.

Walt

Response by SFC Alfredo Garcia made May 9 at 2016 10:40 AM

2016-05-09T10:40:56-04:00

Yes, if they are actually making a political statement. The question implies they do. It appears that they do but until we can without a doubt know that is what they are doing it remains a question mark.

Social media is the new 'Blue Falcon'. Someone will talk if any impropriety has occurred. So IF it is as implied or accused, yes some ear pulling must be initiated.

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made May 9 at 2016 11:07 AM

2016-05-09T11:07:21-04:00

it is a blatant and obvious political statement and it does several things:
1. Disrespect and dishonor of the uniform and those who fought to make the armed forces and the academies what they are to day.
2. it violates the regulations and academy rules and policies.
3. it sends a political statement which misrepresents the academies and the armed forces.
4. it makes us all look bad because that's not why we serve or have served our country because what they did is a political statement not the defense of Constitution or Constitutional rights.
5. As cadets they swore an oath and promised to follow the honor code.

Response by MAJ Richard Campbell made May 9 at 2016 12:06 PM

2016-05-09T12:06:19-04:00

They screwed up! This is not conducive to good order and discipline. They are training to become Army Officers. They just lost that opportunity. This should not be tolerated. This is an example of what not to do in uniform. As a retired Officer, I feel that the Academy has failed if they let these Cadets get away with this. Kids or not, Officers or Enlisted, this is not how Soldiers carry themselves!

Response by TSgt Barron Lathers made May 9 at 2016 12:16 PM

2016-05-09T12:16:09-04:00

The raised fist has many different meanings. When we see such display of pride and that what it means to me as an African American pride. Not because you may think it's racist it's a matter of your opinion. As for the fact that it women of color and you relating it to Beyoncé's Halftime show means that you have a problem with what occurred. Let's be real about the picture and realize we still have problems in America and change needs to take place. But because we look as situations and blow them way out of context in my opinion. It time to wake up America and end this drama. Because this issue military careers will be affected. Even as I tell my sons be careful what you post it will impact your future. we must be mindful.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 1:16 PM

2016-05-09T13:16:29-04:00

don't know if this has been said, but I'm going to say it. If this was a group of white cadets, we would be seeing this compared to the Nazi salute and they would be being called racists.....

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 1:54 PM

2016-05-09T13:54:20-04:00

Yeah, you're right, MSG Private RallyPoint Member, there is a lot of tap dancing. There always is on issues like this if you stand on one side of the fence. My take is...If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you can bet your sweet bippy that it's a duck!!! For decades in this country, there have been two sets of rules for civil decorum in this country. The time has long since past when a whole bunch of somebodies need to stop dancing "around" the Sombrero!!!

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made May 9 at 2016 2:58 PM

2016-05-09T14:58:41-04:00

Let begin with the question classman, I see classwomen, so what I see it is more of perception; People will read a photo based upon their own individual knowledge and perceptions formed by knowledge and experience but with all things being equal why are we not calling them Classwomen?

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 3:13 PM

2016-05-09T15:13:11-04:00

Are you guys serious? It's not hard to see its for the BLM or BP movements, you can try to cast doubt all day but if you're honest with yourselves, you know what and why they took this picture for.

If you want to be an activist, do it all day, but in uniform? On a military academy, in front of the barracks?

There is a reason the Military needs to stay impartial with political movements and Social Justice Warrior campaign. If for some reason you don't understand this reason, many here have highlighted the regulations detailing the reasons. Imagine if the military supported political or the like, movements... Just think about that for a second.

Response by SSG Michael Primm made May 9 at 2016 3:25 PM

2016-05-09T15:25:05-04:00

Making a mountain out of a mole hill....ijs

Response by PFC Angelika Jo made May 9 at 2016 4:50 PM

2016-05-09T16:50:36-04:00

No they are not making a political statement! I have noticed where the fist is held up at numerous events hosted and held by WP. Why is it a problem this time? Plus, this is not a Political Statement but rather a statement of triumph, strength and endurance for all of their hard work

Response by PFC John Morgan made May 9 at 2016 5:28 PM

2016-05-09T17:28:35-04:00

Several things, with the fist rotated it is not a victory move but black power/black lives matter salute. A thumbs up would of been more in order. Next in todays world it is just as wrong for all white to assemble for photo. Next in gender harmony it is wrong for all men to gather excluding others. Yes it is great that 16 I believe out of 18 made it all the way but in todays world respect is given to harmony of the gender and race. What ever they say it is perceived as a in your face kind of thing regretfully. And no I do not think they need to be disciplined but made aware of a broader gathering of there accomplishment to include others.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 6:42 PM

2016-05-09T18:42:52-04:00

I wonder if they understand the magnitude of their offense? What particular reg are they violating and are all the "elements of the offense" present? It does seem wacky that these cadets get a pass on this when a respected general (Boykin) can get un-relenting flak for speaking at a church in uniform about what are his PERSONAL beliefs. I even recall a minor shitstorm when a compo 2 or 3 soldier went to downtown Columbia [near Ft Jackson] to show support to the Occupy Columbia squatters. She even spoke to media and voiced her approval.
Here unfortunately I think there are any number of things the clenched black power "fascist fist" salute could potentially represent. I think had these been white males making any kind of Sieg Heil stiff armed salute things would be much different. But if you hammer these women too harshly you likely face an EO accusation for bias bigotry against African American women. Was their intent that this picture be widely disseminated?

Response by SFC Richard Caroll made May 9 at 2016 10:00 PM

2016-05-09T22:00:22-04:00

Yes I do, but I do not think that their careers should come to an end. Perhaps remedial training of the role of the military in politics.

Response by Cka RedStateUSA made May 9 at 2016 10:27 PM

2016-05-09T22:27:13-04:00

I think their action merits punishment. In the late 1960s, we were just in uniform and were soldiers. No politics like this -- and, given what the raised fist means when flown by blacks, it seems political to me. Their judgment stinks. Collectively, numbnuts. Personally, get them out of the service.

Response by 1SG Michael Bonnett made May 9 at 2016 10:37 PM

2016-05-09T22:37:09-04:00

Kick them all out..... They knew what they are doing...It is a challenge to the leadership of the military that can not be allowed to fester and poison the army....

Response by 1SG Michael Bonnett made May 9 at 2016 10:51 PM

2016-05-09T22:51:20-04:00

I am frankly embarrassed by all the officers blindly ignoring what these cadets did and cheering them on... Has the service sunk so low that this pandering, might in the minds of these officers, actually help them get promoted?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 11:14 PM

2016-05-09T23:14:18-04:00

Yes.

Make them write an essay on why they think they are exempt from 1344.10. It should be interesting reading. Then thank them for their interest in West Point and then dismiss them.

Response by SPC Rudy Hawkins made May 10 at 2016 12:58 AM

2016-05-10T00:58:55-04:00

Reading some of the responses have me laughing...What if there was a few white cadets in there with their fist raised ??? Would it still be promoting Black Lives Matter or because they are all Black, it means it does. When I graduated from my Law Enforcement Academy, we all raised our fists in solidarity of finishing the academy...I guess that was for Black Lives Matter too ??? Why is it when something is done, be it by Blacks or Whites, the first thing that pops up is race-related comments. Until all people can look beyond color, there will always be racism and groups to protest them...I try to live my life looking at people as individuals, not as races. All Blacks aren't thugs, All whites aren't racists, and all Cops aren't Bad !!!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 2:08 AM

2016-05-10T02:08:58-04:00

When are they getting their walking papers? I sure as hell don't want them in my unit.

Response by LTC James Bozeman made May 10 at 2016 7:07 AM

2016-05-10T07:07:53-04:00

I am very disappointed that we have taken to social media to judge or defend these Cadets. Is there the appearance that something is wrong - yes, that is why we need to let the Officers and NCOs charged with investigating this do their job. When we don't follow procedure, we undermine the very principles that our civil and military justice systems are founded on and can taint the outcome. Our voices add to the prejudicial conflict that arises while at the same time we demand good order and discipline.

We all have opinions on these actions and none of them are necessarily wrong - but we can't become the mob. I understand that the Academy has a fair and impartial process and in the spirit of transparency we would hope they share these findings with the public and especially the military community to provide accountability and maintain good discipline and morale for our Profession of Arms.

Personally I have my beliefs, but I am not the Official who is responsible for reviewing their conduct and or passing judgment. I will say that with Graduation on 21 May, a mere 11 days away, that the process to properly review what these Cadets have done might take longer, especially if lawyers get involved and witnesses are called. I would ask that we wait and see and support the decision that the Superintendent makes based upon his staff's review. After all, at this point, we are merely staff Officers and staff NCOs in this realm and can only offer opinions - not pass judgment.

Response by Marlene Hessler made May 10 at 2016 7:18 AM

2016-05-10T07:18:27-04:00

The military is NOT a Social Service Organization. It has rules / laws to maintain decorum and respect.

These people violated those laws/rules and should be removed. They have disrespected the Military, the Military Academy, and the American People that provided their education.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made May 10 at 2016 8:26 AM

2016-05-10T08:26:41-04:00

I think lots of people are forgetting that these are cadets, not active duty military members.

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made May 10 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-05-10T08:35:03-04:00

Yes I do

Response by CMSgt Mickey Wright made May 10 at 2016 8:36 AM

2016-05-10T08:36:26-04:00

Gents settle down! I'm a Northerner from the Land of Lincoln, however, I'm sure the group of Southerners in your organization will be fine posing like this with the Confederate flag which will cause no discourse or comments because they are demonstrating pride in their diversity and heritage.

Response by Sgt Patrick Carron made May 10 at 2016 9:01 AM

2016-05-10T09:01:46-04:00

This is part of what is wrong with society these days. People pull crap like this, and then play the "I didn't know card" or "That isn't what I meant" kind of crap. These young officers will be sent throughout the world to lead our young men and women (sometimes into combat). We should expect more out of them than this. Do I think that this is a career ending move for them? Not at all. But do they need to be punished? I would state a firm "Yes" to that. With that being said, I hope that these young women have a long and successful career; but next time, please think before you post something!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 9:01 AM

2016-05-10T09:01:51-04:00

I believe they are in violation. Just think if me and my team of Army Recruiters took a photo like that in front of our recruiting center! Would there even be a debate if we were in violation?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 9:31 AM

2016-05-10T09:31:14-04:00

I believe if anything these cadets are violating the Army's EO policy. The USMA is supposed to be the premier military academy where the best and brightest are educated. This is a poor example of that education of Seniors are showing a lack of discipline.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 10:22 AM

2016-05-10T10:22:51-04:00

BLUF: If you have a political message, keep it out of uniform.

The answer is unequivocally "Yes." Whatever reason or motivations they had for doing what they did, they still violated UCMJ by making a political statement in uniform, as simple as that. When someone wears a uniform, they cease to speak for themselves as an individual, and instead represent EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is wearing that same uniform.

The public perception does not view them as individuals first, it does not identify them by their name, but by their uniform. Even in the title of this question, the first words that describe the people involved in this actions are "West Point." Whenever a soldier finds themselves on the wrong side of the law, it is always "A Fort Bliss soldier" this, and "A Fort Carson Soldier" that, not "Joe Snuffy." They represent us all.

As the cream of the crop, Officers, most especially those from West Point, must be held to the highest standard. If we allow this sort of blatant defiance of the rules to go unchecked, we accept this as the new standard.

Response by MSgt Art Busch made May 10 at 2016 11:14 AM

2016-05-10T11:14:38-04:00

The fact that this is even a question under consideration proves this is conduct unbecoming-at the least.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 11:35 AM

2016-05-10T11:35:46-04:00

Garbage. Wouldn't want these creatures out there leading, if they do stupid shit like this before they're even in the fleet...
The comment that they are young and stupid is so oblivious, ignorant and dangerous - they are training to be officers of soldiers, what kind shit is this?? If this were a group of whites, it would automatically be shut down, condemned and potentially kicked out of the academy.

Last but not least, to summarize some of the comments - this isn't about diversity or open mindedness or freedom of speech... Screw that, they want to enter an organization that should be one unit, not divisive/everyone's feelings need to be heard/taken into consideration type of bullshit. It starts with the basics, and they can't even keep their bearing in training......
Even if there wasn't any subtext or connotation, they (cadets/classmates, whatever) should know better.

Response by Sgt Edward Padget made May 10 at 2016 1:16 PM

2016-05-10T13:16:32-04:00

I'm really confused by this to be honest. I don't understand how these women can do this and not have any repercussions. That being said I'm a middle aged white guy so my black history probably isn't up to snuff. The whole "raised fist" thing reminds me of the Olympics when the black athletes stood on the podiums to accept their medals and then raised their fists. I'm not clear on exactly what that means? Does it mean "Black Power"? If so what does that mean? It's laughable if you think about it. These women are in a military institution but yet proclaiming black power? How does that work? lol Did Black Power get them there? Did Black Power play any part in their military careers up to this point? Clearly I'm at a disadvantage because I simply don't get it. I've withheld researching much into this because in this day and age of information it's way to easy to fall into a pit of misinformation rather than the correct understanding. Maybe their will be some enlightenment from this thread? I'm anxious to see what others think. Just shooting from the hip I'd say these young women are about to find out just how much power they don't have. I think they are ostracizing themselves, and at a military institution I can't think of a dumber plan of action? What is the latest in the outcome of all of this and these students? I did make one small observation of the picture. I went and looked up images for "Black Power" and 99.9% of the images that showed a raised fist and arm stretched out completely. There's only like 3-4 of these students actually following through here, so I'm inclined to think that body language speaks volumes and 80% of these ladies have no idea why or what they are doing. That half hearted attempt they are giving is just that and it'll probably amount to just that....a half hearted attempt at something but they are not really sure what exactly.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made May 10 at 2016 1:29 PM

2016-05-10T13:29:05-04:00

Not sure. If I ever meet one of these hard charging American Soldiers I'll ask her.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-05-10T13:40:14-04:00

Even if they can explain their way away from the Black Lives Matter Movement, their gestures could seem demeaning. Anything can be taken out of context, and this is why, while in uniform, you have to be very carful how you act and what you do.

I could care less if they are a bunch of racists morons as long as they do not make their decisions on their personal feelings and bigoted views. Once, they opened that door any 1/2 asses NCO, SNCO, Staff NCO would be able to expose them for who they were.

Hopefully, this is just some stupid lack of good judgment.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 1:53 PM

2016-05-10T13:53:14-04:00

Sir, I don't believe these Cadets were making a political statement, and consequently, I don't think they violated the UCMJ. Demographically, the Corps of Cadets is only 14% female, and of that number, a very few are African-American. I don't believe these Cadets worked through four years of challenges to crap it away; I think they are too smart to do that.

I think the key lesson for the Cadets (and the Army, and America) is the power of Social Media, and how you need to be aware of not only what you are doing, and also how your organization and everyone else will perceive it.

(I am not tap-dancing, dodging the issue or crazy...I just don't believe these Cadets were making a BLM or Black-Panther Statement...For what it matters, I am also a conservative officer who worked at USMA for a few years).

Response by MSgt James Mullis made May 10 at 2016 1:54 PM

2016-05-10T13:54:32-04:00

I would say no. They are acting like kids.

Response by 1LT Tom Welch made May 10 at 2016 2:39 PM

2016-05-10T14:39:23-04:00

yes they did violate ucmj, they know it as well, but think its ok, which it isnt. officers or future officers need to exercise restraint, this was a stupid act to be involved in, no matter your political leanings. Officers are not involved in politics on purpose.

Response by SSG Robert White made May 10 at 2016 3:03 PM

2016-05-10T15:03:47-04:00

One of the response is that these are kids and they should be forgiven. I on the other hand have a different opinion. They are OFFICERS, not kids. They are supposed to lead by example. And YES, people do make mistakes and we don't want to hold it against them for the rest of their lives, but we do it all the time. If these cadets were to get a BCD or an OTH discharge, it is held against them all their lives (if the take the OTH instead of a Court marshal, the discharge will never be upgraded). Do not try and excuse their actions based on youth. they spent 4 yrs at the Nationsl Premier Military Academy. If they don't know about "political correctness", then they should graduate. A person rises thru the ranks based upon merit, PC and friendships. One mistake as an officer usually ends a career.

Don't let these ladies off. Hold them accountable as you would any enlisted or officer.

Response by SFC Michael Peterson made May 10 at 2016 3:20 PM

2016-05-10T15:20:33-04:00

I have no idea what they were trying to represent by raising their fists. I can ASSUME but, we all know how that breaks down. The problem I have with it is how it can be "perceived". Does it look like a "political statement"? To me it does but, how would I know? If you've ever heard that "perception is reality" then, you know what I mean. In my opinion, it was not a smart thing to do. If I was in charge, I would interview each of them individually to find out. If it turns out it was just to signify "victory" over a hard fought four years in WestPoint then, good for them. Carry on and do great things. However, if it was meant to signify "black power" or support of the "Black Lives Matter" movement, I would expel them all just as fast as I would a group of white Cadets giving the Nazi salute.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 4:28 PM

2016-05-10T16:28:48-04:00

Two things bother about all this. 1) Those young people do not have first hand knowledge of what Jim Crow was like. They were not there in Greensboro, where black citizens asked to be served and were denied. (Greensboro, NC.) People of the Philippines were slaves for 300 years!! They have moved on. In WWII, their kids, babies were impaled on poles for sport. But they marched the Bataan Death March and Corrigador along side Americans. They were crueally treated in their own Country. You were not here MLK was shot. I remember the event like it were yesterday. Little Rock Hall, was another instance where kids tried to go to school and were denied.

And I am pretty sure that you were not segregated and I actually witnessed the old school that was shut down. I used to play in the neighborhood. Willie and I were to a football game in Arkadelphia were the KKK were at. Willie said that, maybe we should go. lol, ya think? Were you there or where Hank Aaron had threats and his parents also. He handled it with grace. Bob Gibson who at one time, played basketball for the Globetrotters but could not stay in a white only hotel. Anheiser Busch rectified that? The backdrop to all of this is, that real people experienced stuff you had no experience with.

Lastly and more importantly you were not there and then to throw the power sign around, oblivious to the sacrifices of other blacks and you were not there. Lou Brock, Bob Gibson experienced it and so did Ozzie Smith, but the great SS got over that and said that if you don't have it, you don't miss it.
COL Sam Russell SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL did as well.

Regards and respectfully,
Larry

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 5:20 PM

2016-05-10T17:20:35-04:00

Yup, I'll say that shit is racist. there's no room in the army for that. We got enough weird social experiments going on in the army then have to deal with racist female officers who would be commanding troops.. Lol so glad I'm not active duty. Takes 5 suicide prevention classes lol

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 5:21 PM

2016-05-10T17:21:02-04:00

we all do stupid things when we're young and old, but this really, these young ladies and future officers need to be sat down and counselled, i found this offensive not because i'm white but because i served 31 years, i know my american history, and i know that slavery was wrong, and i also know that times have changed, for this to come up in a most prestigious millitary acememy is wrong but i understand the learning curve, dont punish but counsel grow these future leaders to make the correct changes i earned everthing i got from the millitary so should they

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made May 10 at 2016 7:10 PM

2016-05-10T19:10:57-04:00

The potential that I see in these warriors, they should be honed, trained and taught to fight and take no prisoners then armed well then set free on ISIS. I wish I was their instructor, you guys can keep the pomp and ceremony West Pointers I would gladly serve with these future leaders.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 7:22 PM

2016-05-10T19:22:36-04:00

I have heard the "they are just kids" argument plenty here.
And it's bullcrap.
These are Seniors at West Point who are about to become officers in the United States Army. They should be held to a higher standard. You can say whatever you want, but Officers in the military SHOULD be held to a higher standard. If not, then why do they exist?
There is no excuse for this.

Response by SSG Barry Walter made May 10 at 2016 8:56 PM

2016-05-10T20:56:17-04:00

I sincerely hope that this display was just a poor judgement by group of young spirited educated young women proud of both their heritage and their accomplishments. I do not want to be judged by a few of the things I did as a 21 year old SSG. If however, a proper investigation reveals that their action was a social / political statement, their poor judgement brings with it a different reaction which may not be so strong to prohibit their graduation and commissioning but should have consequences none the less.

Response by Cpl D L Parker made May 10 at 2016 10:30 PM

2016-05-10T22:30:45-04:00

I think it more of a Civil Rights matter. They know the crap they'll go thru as women and minorities.

Response by SPC Rudy Hawkins made May 10 at 2016 10:49 PM

2016-05-10T22:49:34-04:00

Glad to see this !!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/10/us/west-point-cadets-photo/index.html

West Point clears black cadets over raised-fists photo

The 16 female, African-American cadets who appeared in a photograph with raised fists in uniform will not be punished for their controversial "Old Corps Photo."

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 5:22 AM

2016-05-11T05:22:28-04:00

Ok I'm not supporting their actions but the KKK used the flags white males have on their vehicles, Why the blank are they allowed to fly them on Post? Many that fly that fly say it's heritage not hate, BS what heritage for me as a Black man does the flag mean? Honestly I don't care but it's the glag of all White Supremacist groups and KKK should be banned but it's defended to live on after all they done but it's about majority here.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 6:34 AM

2016-05-11T06:34:38-04:00

Yes, they are, they are in violation!!!! No organization withing the military is authorized unless authorized! Also, this is a racial sign they are expressing, used by the Black Lives Matter movement and the Black Panthers. When are we going to uphold the regs that are written and stop the "let it go"? Suggest they be counseled on the matter so they understand and then allowed to move along in their military career! If not, this type of behavior will continue to grow and will cause problems and segregation in the future, something we fought to abolish!
The bad thing is, if someone in the future were to complain about their action at a later date and claim racism, this matter will be brought back up! Not good!

Response by Capt Walter Miller made May 11 at 2016 6:52 AM

2016-05-11T06:52:28-04:00

This picture is clearly prejudicial to good order and discipline.

Response by COL Sam Russell made May 11 at 2016 7:29 AM

2016-05-11T07:29:37-04:00

"As members of the Profession of Arms, we are held to a high standard, where our actions are constantly observed and scrutinized in the public domain. We all must understand that a symbol or gesture that one group of people may find harmless may offend others. As Army officers, we are not afforded the luxury of a lack of awareness of how we are perceived."
LTG Robert L. Caslen Jr., Superintendent, United States Military Academy.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/10/us/west-point-cadets-photo/index.html

West Point clears black cadets over raised-fists photo

The 16 female, African-American cadets who appeared in a photograph with raised fists in uniform will not be punished for their controversial "Old Corps Photo."

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 11:19 AM

2016-05-11T11:19:27-04:00

The fact this is an issue outside USMA is in and of itself an issue. As LTG Caslen himself points out, cadets have shown the raised fist in many contexts in uniform in the past, so to single these ladies out for unique treatment would be disingenuous. In the end, proper outcome and a lesson these ladies and many others will never forget.

Response by Maj James Tippins made May 11 at 2016 11:36 AM

2016-05-11T11:36:46-04:00

Looks like the PC police win again and the cadets saved their butts by lying about it...since the tweet comments they made apparently do not count. Of course the Army wanting to increase minority attendance at the academy couldn't have influenced their decision at all...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 11:55 AM

2016-05-11T11:55:25-04:00

Well it appears that the "Fist in the Air" symbolism itself has a different meaning when displayed by different races. Due to the fact that they were able to obtain several pictures of white cadets at various events displaying the same symbol and referring to it as "celebratory" , these cadets were able to use the same defense, regardless of what their intent may have been. Convenience or lucky? Next thing you know people in uniform who are caught displaying the Nazi salute will say they were just waving goodbye and someone just timed the picture right.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made May 11 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-05-11T13:40:19-04:00

I would suggest that all participating in this discussion read the following in regard to the inquiry. The preliminary inquiry report - http://www.usma.edu/news/Shared%20Documents/Redacted%20Inquiry%20Results.pdf
The USMA Superintendent"s letter - http://www.westpoint.edu/news/Shared%20Documents/Supt%20Letter.pdf
The USMA news release - http://www.westpoint.edu/news/Shared%20Documents/WEST%20POINT%20PHOTO%20INQUIRY%20CLEARS%20CADETS.pdf
Then read the Army Times article - http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2016/05/10/west-point-cadet-photo-inappropriate-but-not-political/84196326/

Bottom line is that it was deemed inappropriate and some of the participants knew it to be inappropriate. What disturbs me about the comments is that the one cadet understood that it may be so, and stated to the group "this isn't an EO violation and we won't get in trouble for it." So one or more knew that this could easily be taken as a violation.

What further disturbs me after having read the inquiry that they made the statement that this was a gesture of "unity, solidarity, and pride", and the raised fist used for that reason, makes me wonder. Are the cadets of West Point are so closed off from current events in both the civilian and military communities, that these soon to be commissioned officers do not know or understand that their actions and statement/s are directly reflective of both the Civil Rights and LGBT movements?

Unfortunately I believe that the spin placed on this by the institution of the USMA, will be difficult for some (including myself) after reading the open report to believe that they (the cadets) did not understand the implication of their statement.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 2:04 PM

2016-05-11T14:04:19-04:00

I understand no disciplinary action will be taken.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 2:07 PM

2016-05-11T14:07:02-04:00

There was no trial - only an administrative inquiry - no rules, regulations, or policies were violated - the matter is being dropped without penalty. Warmest Regards, Sandy

http://www.westpoint.edu/news/Shared%20Documents/Supt%20Letter.pdf

Response by Capt Tom Brown made May 11 at 2016 2:07 PM

2016-05-11T14:07:37-04:00

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/05/10/west-point-cadet-photo-inappropriate-but-not-political/84196326/

West Point: Cadet photo was inappropriate, but not political

The 16 cadets face no punitive action but there is one consequence they face.

Response by SFC Gary Edwards made May 11 at 2016 2:40 PM

2016-05-11T14:40:35-04:00

Not at all! 1st, I see the picture and I see pride and success. Sure, we see what we want to see. However, I'd like everyone who views this photo negatively to think for a moment what it might be like to be in their shoes. Let's take off our biases, preconceived notions about how things should be and imagine for a moment what it would be like to be at West Point, and understand how things are in society in general. Now you're a black woman at West Point, formerly an all male institution. Now imagine being subjected to the same standards as every other cadet and at the same time being ridiculed about your hair, your color, hints that you only got there because you were a minority, some affirmative action program, and not because of academic excellence, high moral character and athletic achievement. On top of this add some sexual undertones, jokes and innuendos. I hope I'm having some impact, but I know there are those who will be ready to cast stones. I certainly wasn't there, and I'd like to believe these things never happen anywhere, but many of you know because you've seen and experienced it yourselves. If these young women were any other race there would be no discussion. I hope it is getting better for women in the military, but women of color have a few more unseen and unacknowledged obstacles to overcome and these women did that. Celebrate and join them in their achievement.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 4:04 PM

2016-05-11T16:04:58-04:00

BLM isn't a hate group it was created because Cops used last resort first but other cases it wasn't used even when the fuy killed 9 they walked him out with a bullet proof vest. I don't endorse racism, I been in 15.5 yrs and served beside ppl of many backgrounds. Plus being from Alabama and act up in School and the teacher pop yo ass ppl didn't care of the color you just get yo ass whoop because the "Teacher" whoop yo butt.

Response by Terri Sirois made May 11 at 2016 6:04 PM

2016-05-11T18:04:04-04:00

They do not deserve to graduate and become our future Officers. Now lets examine who is the racist???

Response by LTC Joseph George made May 11 at 2016 6:15 PM

2016-05-11T18:15:24-04:00

Well there is officially no discipline, honor, self esteem, accountability, responsibility, good order or quality leadership at West Point. http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/05/11/16-west-point-cadets-raised-fist-photo-wont-be-punished.html?ESRC=army-a_160511.nl. This article shows how the superintendent cowered, was afraid to do the right thing in disciplining these cadets, it shows how the Army has become a less than quality service in which to serve. Liberalism has infected the Army so bad that leadership and regulations mean nothing. You can thank the press, the administration, congress, and a lack of concern from the leadership at West Point to do the right thing and stand firm on the core beliefs of the service. The West Point superintendent should be relieved, busted to the rank of 2LT and retired. I am appalled.

16 West Point Cadets in Raised-Fist Photo Won't Be Punished

The decision, days before they are due to graduate, found they didn't violate military rules limiting political activity.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 7:12 PM

2016-05-11T19:12:58-04:00

why is this still out there even flournoy is gone

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 12:03 PM

2016-05-12T12:03:19-04:00

OK ... here is another view. It makes NO difference in what they intended the picture to be! It is the perception of what the picture means. I don't' care if its 1 of 16 or so photos. I don't care how hard life is/was on them. They are about to Graduate West Point which means they should be able to over come obstacles. An Perception is Reality!! Graduates from West Point are promoted first. West Point Graduates usually go on to Lead the Military. What would you say if it had been a bunch of young white male cadets all holding up Confederate flags? Their would be an OUTCRY to shake al of capital hill. The President would probably be on TV saying they had been removed from West Point. Stop dancing around the issue. What they did was wrong, offensive, ill-conceived, stupid and against regulation.

I personally, As a Military Member, find the photo offensive.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made May 12 at 2016 12:16 PM

2016-05-12T12:16:44-04:00

So CSM I guess you would be equally appalled if a white Army Officer displayed a Confederate Flag in some fashion-A flag that represents slavery and racism to some

Response by TSgt Barron Lathers made May 12 at 2016 1:00 PM

2016-05-12T13:00:34-04:00

Whether you like it or not the cadets have been cleared. An investigation was done and they have been cleared. Let get on with our lives and allow them to get on with their careers. You better believe they learned something value from this event.

Response by MAJ Randy Gregory made May 12 at 2016 1:30 PM

2016-05-12T13:30:42-04:00

West Point Cadets are subject to UCMJ unlike ROTC Cadets who are only when on active duty for training.

This is clearly prejudicial to good order and discipline. It is clearly a political statement made in uniform. It is therefore a breech of the honor code and the UCMJ.

The reason they won't be disciplined as white cadets would for supporting an equally controversial white cause is the color of their skin.

We've trained our NCOs and Officers to look the other way when soldiers of a minority violate regulations and laws because of the stigma of the EO complaint that invariably immoderately follows any such charge. Doesn't have to be true, doesn't have to have any merit - just the complaint and the NCO or Officer will thereafter be scrutinized severely for every action.

Everything from braids, to make-up, to disrespect are overlooked regularly when committed by soldiers of color. I'm retired I have no one to whom I answer I can tell the truth I've seen it morph over the years to damn near impotence to correct minorities.

Response by SGT Carter Laurie made May 12 at 2016 8:24 PM

2016-05-12T20:24:26-04:00

Dishonorable discharges for all involved. No exceptions.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 9:17 PM

2016-05-12T21:17:51-04:00

The only problem I see, in this discussion, is how many people give a shit. Whoopity doo! We've seen rebel flags, Mexican banners, throwing duce's and everything else. What's the big deal here? I don't personally see a political statement? Perhaps in light of current events it wasn't the best decision to be made, but then I'm back to; why does anyone give a shit.

Response by SGT John Hamby made May 13 at 2016 1:54 AM

2016-05-13T01:54:27-04:00

Absolutely!!!!! they are blatantly in Violation of the Regulations

Response by 1SG Antonio Blount made May 13 at 2016 3:24 AM

2016-05-13T03:24:49-04:00

So what does this picture say? What I see is a bunch proud cadets.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 4:12 AM

2016-05-13T04:12:52-04:00

Yes but they are Black so it is ok.

Response by 1SG Antonio Blount made May 13 at 2016 5:07 AM

2016-05-13T05:07:49-04:00

All hell didn't break loose

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 5:25 PM

2016-05-13T17:25:33-04:00

What if this was a pic of a bunch of white males doing the hitter salute...would it be ok?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 8:28 PM

2016-05-13T20:28:54-04:00

Yes.

Response by SSG Jeff Binkiewicz made May 15 at 2016 11:29 AM

2016-05-15T11:29:01-04:00

Yes, time for the duffel bag drag. When I was in you kept your political views to yourself. I would love to the look on their faces when they get shit canned.

Response by COL Sam Russell made May 17 at 2016 9:21 AM

2016-05-17T09:21:21-04:00

"The West Point seniors whose fist-raising photo thrust them into the national spotlight have completed the mandatory instruction required to graduate, a spokesman told Army Times on Monday."

Response by Marlene Hessler made May 19 at 2016 12:17 PM

2016-05-19T12:17:11-04:00

Someone responded that the Cadets' perception was of negativity.

The Cadets' perception matters in that it shows they are NOT OFFICER MATERIAL.

However, it is NOT THEIR PERCEPTION THAT SHOULD CONCERN ALL OF US.
IT IS THE PERCEPTION THEIR ACTIONS PRESENT TO THE PEOPLE PAYING FOR THEIR EDUCATION AND THEIR PAYCHECKS AS OFFICERS.

PERCEPTION IS REALITY

REALITY IS THEY ARE A PROBLEM

Response by SGT David D Williams made Jun 2 at 2016 10:50 AM

2016-06-02T10:50:33-04:00

Planned in advance to test the waters. I see a disgraceful deterioration of pride in the unity of the most prestigious military academy in the world. It will continue to to fade now that this is accepted. My heart hurts....

Response by 1SG Antonio Blount made Jun 3 at 2016 8:30 AM

2016-06-03T08:30:07-04:00

The real question here is, is this a political statement they are making? Or is it the color of there skin that makes us jump to the conclussion because of the Black Lives movement? I've seen plenty of West Point photos of cadets clinching there fist but this one is the one making all the headlines. We have thousands of people who have voiced good and bad opinions. We have some serious issues going on in America and the world. Don't get me wrong, everyones opinion matters and I hope the thousands of people who made comments on this post votes.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jun 3 at 2016 6:34 PM

2016-06-03T18:34:32-04:00

After 4 years of military education, paid for by the taxpayer, this is what we get. I hope every West Point Alumni gives them the cold shoulder from now until eternity! I hope the commandant drums them out in disgrace.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-06-15T14:02:58-04:00

What statement are they making?

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-06-22T15:34:57-04:00

No. This is a photo that has been taken year after year. It is a tradition at West Point for the black females of the firstie class to take this picture before graduation. People are over reacting and taking things out of context

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jun 22 at 2016 9:39 PM

2016-06-22T21:39:25-04:00

Guess these ladies are all now graduated and in the process of reporting in to their first duty station.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2016 4:00 PM

2016-06-23T16:00:31-04:00

No.

Response by PO1 Scott VanBoskirk made Jun 29 at 2016 2:21 PM

2016-06-29T14:21:54-04:00

What it boils down to is authorization. Unless I'm mistaken, if you wish to make any type of statement in uniform, then you may do it ONLY if you have submitted a request and have received permission from the proper authority.

So did they request and receive permission to take a picture in support of BLM? If so, then then they cannot be charged. If not, then they should be held accountable to the UCMJ, period.

And to the example of those marching in gay pride parades in uniform, that should have been punished as well. Another example of where the UCMJ was not applied when it should have been was to those in the reserves who were mobilized and refused to go.

What needs to be done is to promulgate a statement to all military, active and reserve, that we will draw a line at this moment in time. Going forward, ALL infractions of the UCMJ in regards to making political statements will be dealt with in accordance with the UCMJ with NO EXCEPTIONS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are not even supposed to be in uniform except traveling between home and base. And in any utility uniform, you are not even allowed to step out of your transportation unless you are on base or at home. Any change in this rule must be authorized by your CO.

NO EXCEPTIONS!

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 10:33 PM

2016-08-23T22:33:10-04:00

Great photo!! These women did absolutely nothing wrong in my own personal opinion. People tend to automatically assume something is bad before they take the take to research the orgin of where it derived from. This fist has been used in America during dozens of movements representing unity, solidarity and supporting one another. I have good faith in the officials appointed over them, if what they did was so horrid and absolutely unexcusable than I'm sure they wouldn't have allowed these young women to graduate and Commission. I support the "Women's Rights Movement" (where they used this same hand gesture) and I whole heartedly support this. Congratulations to the graduating class of West Point cadets, and I have good faith that these beautiful young women will make outstanding Commissioned Officers.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 11:11 PM

2016-08-23T23:11:17-04:00

I really don't see anything wrong with this. What many fail to realize is that the whole BLM movement doesn't become racist until someone comes and labels it that way. True it starts off with the word "Black," it doesn't just symbolize that. Its calling for an end to all violent of people period. It just happens that it was started by some people of color, then funded by a wealthy non-white indivdual, which caused it to gain the momentum that it did.

This is offensive to folks for what reason? Not to mention if it doesn't affect you personally or isn't directed towards you why let it bother you? This is one of the main reasons we have the issues that we do in our great nation

Response by SPC Christopher Morehouse made Aug 24 at 2016 10:34 PM

2016-08-24T22:34:57-04:00

What.... The..... Hell.... AT best this shows questionable judgment. What the hell are they teaching at West Point!?

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Aug 27 at 2016 3:25 PM

2016-08-27T15:25:12-04:00

This Is The Same Old Shit Different Day. This Is One Of Those Black Power Things. If It Where White Cadets All Of Them Would Have Been Kicked Out Just As I Think These People Should. I Know People Are Still Stupid About Race And Keeping The Thing That Divides Us More Than Religion. The Guy At The Citadel Where All Busted For The White Ghost Christmas Singing. Because Some People Said They Looked Like The KKK. Well I Guess All Kids That Dress As Ghosts For Halloween Are Racist Kiln Members. If The West Point Thing Is Glazed Over As Pride Then Why Is Every Thing That Some One White Does That Might Be Taken The Wrong Way BLOWN UP. ALL OF YOU NEED TO FACE THE FACT'S. Their Are Stupid People Every Where. That Ether Do Something Or Say Something That. Ether Comes Out Or Is Taken Wrong. Then Their Are The Evil Among Us That Say And Does These Thing's That Cause Hate Between People. Then Their Is The Evil That Know's Things Where Not Meant The Way It Sounded. But Do Every Thing They Can To Make It Look The Other Way. Then There Is My Favorites The So Called Minster Or Reverend That Preaches Lie's And Hate. Then The New's That Only Report's Things That Are Bad. Never Telling The Good Thing Or Just The Fact's Not The Spin To Make More So Called New's. Yes I Am Racist A Humane Racist That Hope's For People To Pull Their Head's Out Of There Ass's. God I Back To My Day's At Ft. Benning In Basic Taring Where We Where All O.D. GREEN.

Response by Terri Sirois made Sep 7 at 2016 5:38 PM

2016-09-07T17:38:50-04:00

definitely, this seems as a one way street

Response by SrA James Cannon made Feb 3 at 2017 2:09 PM

2017-02-03T14:09:49-05:00

I do believe they are making a political statement. Whether or not they should've been punished is something I don't want to decide upon. I do think their actions are inappropriate at the very least.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Feb 16 at 2017 1:26 PM

2017-02-16T13:26:49-05:00

Is having a rebel flag bumper sticker a political statement? How about a Trump sticker on your bumper? Last time I checked the Westpoint uniform is not an authorized active duty uniform. You are all just intolerant.

Response by MSG Tim Gray made Apr 10 at 2017 10:58 PM

2017-04-10T22:58:13-04:00

This really concerns me! I can't see the previous comments or I'm not smart enough to get them open, but... When I see this it makes me feel like it creates an institutional divide based off of race. When I served we were all "green" in color. I can't imagine that these cadets would be so brazen to hold that pose if a 4 star of any color, but certainly a black officer, were to witness the event. I hope that the institutional camaraderie is dissolved when they reach their units by leaders who show true candor and selfless service. Our profession is one of unity and always mission first, lest we all die along with our country. I have a love for all who wear the uniform with integrity, even those like the rest of us that needed some help along the way.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2017 1:27 PM

2017-04-11T13:27:27-04:00

yes and they should be removed from the academy and punished under UCMJ each and every one of them is a disgrace to the uniform and whoever organized the event needs to go to jail.