Do you believe the 2 women Rangers passed on their own merits or were they given special treatment?

2015-09-25T22:16:15-04:00

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3249690/First-women-pass-Ranger-School-given-extra-training-lowered-benchmarks-general-vowed-one-pass-sources-claim.html

First women to pass Ranger School 'were given extra training'

Sources claim that back in January,a general vowed that 'a woman will graduate Ranger School', this year and said officials bent the rules to allow female candidates a better chance of success.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Sep 25 at 2015 10:16 PM

2015-09-25T22:16:51-04:00

ooo boy

Edit:

Ok first off that's the Daily Mail, which is the same rag that Snowden's buddy works for (if I'm not mistaken). Secondly, 'unnamed general this', 'sources say' that, 'people allege that' the other, Nothing verifiable, nothing substantive. It's a hit piece.

I wouldn't be surprised if any of it was true because this PC leadership is dead set on it happening...but nothing in that article makes me confident it did.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Sep 25 at 2015 10:51 PM

2015-09-25T22:51:13-04:00

Since this came out in People magazine and not some right-wing conspiracy blog, I believe there is at least some truth to this. Sadly, it does not surprise me either. Regardless of the ultimate truth, these two officers will always be tainted by these allegations. I am sure every other prior Ranger school graduate will look at them and wonder.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2015 11:46 PM

2015-09-25T23:46:06-04:00

I completely believe in equal rights and that both genders should be given the same opportunities. However, if I am ever in combat one day and get wounded, I need someone to be able to drag me out of there. If they bent the standards to allow a female soldier to be in that position and she is unable to carry me to safety due to physical limitations (not that every female is not capable of doing that), then I don't think the rules should of been bent if they were. I see us as all solders, not genders, and should be able to pull the same amount of weight.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2015 12:10 AM

2015-09-26T00:10:10-04:00

I'm curious, they passed so why this "While Griest and Haver are allowed to wear the black and gold Ranger tab on their uniform, they have not been allowed to join the elite fighting Rangers unit itself."?

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Sep 26 at 2015 12:55 AM

2015-09-26T00:55:06-04:00

SSgt Alex Robinson, ETHICS? Please, someone tell we'uns what really went on. This Ranger qualification discussion is beginning to be tainted w/ a "Clinton" aroma!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-09-26T13:33:30-04:00

Absolutely. Zero doubts of this, they were held against the same standards as everyone else.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2015 7:02 PM

2015-09-26T19:02:46-04:00

I believe they succeeded on their own merits.

I also believe there are some who will never believe that. Sad.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Sep 27 at 2015 2:33 AM

2015-09-27T02:33:57-04:00

I'm not going to believe anything until I see the results of a thorough investigation. I just wish the investigation had been done on the down low rather than someone leaking it to the media.

Response by SPC Luis Mendez made Sep 27 at 2015 12:10 PM

2015-09-27T12:10:59-04:00

Either is possible. In a Politically oriented Military any of all the allegations are possible.

If the POTUS, Congress, the Media and the Populace made up in part by DRAFT Dodgers men wants it, the Military Brass is there to deliver it and it will one way or another. Another possibility is that they're taking supplements maybe even steroids of sort.

Response by TSgt Erica Claus-numsali made Sep 27 at 2015 3:39 PM

2015-09-27T15:39:50-04:00

I believed they earned that honor. I saw the panel of the newest Ranger graduates and one of the soldiers said that (I forgot her name, sorry) said she carried HIS rucksack on top of hers when he couldn't go further.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Sep 27 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-09-27T15:48:20-04:00

I wouldn't presume to know or even hazard a guess for that matter, but I would be curious to hear what the Ranger School instructors would say if they could speak freely without any worry of retribution-from anyone.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2015 3:49 PM

2015-09-27T15:49:52-04:00

I believe that even if special accommodations were made (which I doubt anyhow) the women would not have accepted it. Any women that has the drive and desire to go to Ranger school does so knowing that her admission, performance, and standards are going to be monumentally scrutinized. A women - a Soldier - with any self-respect and integrity wouldn't take any shortcuts as not to cheapen earning that tab. Having said that, God himself could have been a grader and some people still wouldn't believe it if they said they were held to the same standard.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Sep 27 at 2015 3:52 PM

2015-09-27T15:52:08-04:00

No matter what is presented or stated, two women soldiers passed Ranger School.
I believe that they were held to the same standards as the rest of their classmates.

Now with that all aside - The Bottom Line is that the women soldiers were given preferential treatment in the form of MANDATORY PRIOR TRAINING. It was mandated that the women that were accepted for Ranger School attend and pass the "two-week Army National Guard Ranger Training and Assessment Course". Most, if not all of the women that were accepted also had to attend their local version of the Pre-Ranger Course, as a matter of course to even get on the list to attend Ranger School. Whether you like it or not that IS preferential treatment AND NOT Equal Opportunity and equal treatment. All of this was done to set those select women up for success. Men are not always afforded those same opportunities, that is where the real issue really is. MSG Steve Howell

MSG Steve Howell - If you attended Infantry ANCOC or whatever it is called now at Ft Benning, then you probably yourself have used the same Land Navigation Course used by Ranger School, it was the same one when I went to ANCOC.

Now for those of you that may disagree with what I just said - I am sorry that you have some type of blinders on, whether they are rose colored glasses or have drank the Kool-Aid of Political Correctness. Maybe you should actually step back and take a more complete look at the whole situation, and you might be able to see it more clearly. LTC Private RallyPoint Member TSgt Hunter Logan

From my viewpoint, the women soldiers that could have excelled in this course and could have really benefitted from attending Ranger School, wanted nothing to do with this experiment at this stage. After asking some that I know, and they explained their reasoning, I also understood. One of the most reoccurring statements was that they did not want to become " a pawn or poster child of political correctness or social experiments."

And for those of you that are putting these two women up as PT Studs, I would pit a couple of enlisted female field combat medics that I know up against these two Rangers at anytime for a combat ruck march with what the medics normally carry. Or have them attempt the EFMB. And if you did not know it, PT Studs have failed Ranger School in the past, PT Studs unless they are Mental Studs, also end up failing some courses of study. CPT Private RallyPoint Member

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 27 at 2015 7:21 PM

2015-09-27T19:21:12-04:00

Latest from the Army side:

http://m.military.com/daily-news/2015/09/27/army-denies-that-ranger-school-was-fixed-so-women-could-pass.html

Response by SPC George Rudenko made Sep 27 at 2015 8:10 PM

2015-09-27T20:10:14-04:00

It doesn't matter what I think, the Ranger cadre passed them; they are Rangers.

Response by SFC Alfonso Moore made Sep 27 at 2015 11:13 PM

2015-09-27T23:13:18-04:00

yes theyy passed

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2015 11:22 PM

2015-09-27T23:22:42-04:00

The Army does many things I don't agree with....but lowering their training standards is something I've never seen them do.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Sep 28 at 2015 6:36 AM

2015-09-28T06:36:45-04:00

Yes, completely on their own merits. All the comments abut lets see what the investigation says or I would like to know what the Ranger Instructors would say if they were free from retribution only means that it is believed. Why investigate? If we think the US Army Ranger School has truly done this then the response would be to shut it down and disband the Rangers. This is saying you think Rangers from every rank are liars and have zero integrity. These Soldiers who passed have no Honor and are part of a giant conspiracy to do what I don't know. If you think it's true or even that an investigation is required then you think the Army is one giant piece of shit. I say to all F*** Off. These women went out and did something incredible. They should be met with nothing but congratulations and respect. There are always so many comments about "brothers and sisters in arms' and all this crap about veterans and how noble we all are. If you think this is true and you draw your pride form the US Army then you need to realize that everything you told yourself is a big fat lie. Why question these hard charging Soldiers just because you don't believe it is possible for a woman to do something 99% of everyone commenting has no idea what it's about and would not get past the first fricking day.

Listen to MAJ Jim Hathaway, the current RTB executive officer:
No matter what we at Ranger School say, the non-believers will still be non-believers. We could have invited each of you to guest walk the entire course, and you would still not believe, we could have video recorded every patrol and you would still say that we “gave” it away. Nothing we say will change your opinion. I and the rest of our cadre are proud of the conduct of our soldiers, NCOs, and officers; they took the mission assigned and performed to the Ranger standard. Rangers Lead the Way!

And if you want to lump this Major and the Lieutenant who wrote the piece into the same category then you must be so humiliated to be associated with such an honor-less military system you should get the f*** out and go work at UPS.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 6:53 AM

2015-09-28T06:53:54-04:00

of cause they do, recycled and tried again. It take guts to go through even the basic boot camp for many lol

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 8:00 AM

2015-09-28T08:00:22-04:00

I believe that until definite proof is released then they deserve the praise for passing under their own merits.

Response by MAJ Mike Youknow made Sep 28 at 2015 9:45 AM

2015-09-28T09:45:17-04:00

For you consideration:
Along about the 6-7th grade females find that they cannot successfully compete with their male peers in ANY physical body to body sport. By the 9-10th grade it is not even a topic of discussion except as a soundbite for a news story. By the end of high school it is universally recognized that females are not capable of the same physical performance standards as males.
#####
No society, country, nor group or organization has been able to eliminate gender differences in physical sport competition!
#####
But there seems to be people that think that women can compete against men in COMBAT! And let us not forget, COMBAT is a brutally hard PHYSICAL COMPETITION that includes KILLING your opponent. I fail to see the logic that indicates that this is a sustainable course of action.
The proponents for this inclusive course of action totally ignore 5000+ years of human history. If they were honest they would pit groups of females against groups of males in physical competition and compare the results. But of course, this has been done millions of times in past wars, it did not end well for females. This stupidity will not end well for our females either.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Sep 28 at 2015 11:56 AM

2015-09-28T11:56:10-04:00

Do you believe what the Officers and NCOs of the RTB and fellow classmates stated about the two Ranger school grads?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 1:08 PM

2015-09-28T13:08:27-04:00

Why would anyone look to a rag best known for which celebrity couple had a threesome this weekend and where the bikini wax line is for this season to get substantive news on a military topic?
Every source willing to give a name has been overwhelmingly positive. Every negative, special-treatment, unfair grading source is anonymous. So not one person with balls enough to speak out? I call BS.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-09-28T13:33:31-04:00

we shouldnt question it. they did it and we should be proud of them.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 28 at 2015 1:43 PM

2015-09-28T13:43:16-04:00

For the record, I posted this item for discussion purposes. I don't know what the truth is. I put this out there so I could be better educated. I have seen much info on the internet about command influence such as a flag officer saying women would graduate. What is not in disputes is the women were given additional training beyond what men get.

Response by SGT Patrick Reno made Sep 28 at 2015 1:50 PM

2015-09-28T13:50:59-04:00

To say they did not pass on their own merits would be a huge insult to the Rangers and everything the training stands for.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Sep 28 at 2015 2:57 PM

2015-09-28T14:57:48-04:00

Anyone who doubts this, who in not a Ranger or something similar, needs to get on that course and run it and see how they do.
I'm getting sick of all these ass clowns doing the armchair quarterback thing and insinuating that standards were lowered for the women. So if that was the case then how come only 2 made it? And how come more of the men didn't make it? Obvious answer is that standards were maintained and that the Rangers running the course have their integrity in tact.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 3:14 PM

2015-09-28T15:14:34-04:00

Rangers don't just give out tabs, they are earned. Male or Female......I believe they earned those tabs and I would be honored to serve next to them any day. Both those ladies had what it takes and showed the military that you can't define a persons ability by thier gender. I say HOOAH!!!!!

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Sep 28 at 2015 3:41 PM

2015-09-28T15:41:03-04:00

I have no personal knowledge of the situation, but it is fully reasonable to me that the treatment would be different. The Marines have been treating women differently for as long as I can remember. Their PFT does not include pull-ups as is required for men -- instead, there is the flexed-arm hang.

I make no comment about the relative superiority/inferiority of either method, since I simply do not care. But it IS different.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 28 at 2015 4:07 PM

2015-09-28T16:07:48-04:00

The better question is do I care? Do I care what the Kardashians are doing? Do I care about Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner? Do I care about the Pope's visit? The answer to all of these is not just no, but hell no.

I know at 51 I am not going to pass Ranger school anytime soon, if they did great, if it was lowered, then they have to live with it. Not me or anyone else. Would other Ranger's be ticked off, I can't say because I am not one, therefore not my place to say.

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Sep 28 at 2015 5:04 PM

2015-09-28T17:04:51-04:00

No.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-09-28T17:58:36-04:00

Of course they did. I know for a fact the Army's Ranger School would never lower their standards no matter what. And I'm also certain that people who think so are just haters. Haters gotta hate. That just gives the new female Rangers more power of them. But seriously, stop hating on these females. They worked very hard to earn this qualification. Good for them and shame on those who can't accept it.

Response by SSG Michael Patton made Sep 28 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-09-28T18:25:39-04:00

There is obviously strong feelings both ways on this topic. I have seen more thumbs down on this post than is typical.

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 28 at 2015 6:44 PM

2015-09-28T18:44:46-04:00

Apparently the reporter from People magazine feels she's been a target:

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/local/military/article36836172.html

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 7:58 PM

2015-09-28T19:58:26-04:00

There is no way to know that for sure! Unless someone comes forward. I dont understand why the Army did not first require women to meet the male standard across the board then open the enlisted and officer Infantry courses then send them to Ranger School. Had the Army done that, not only would there be a lot less "angst" but more women probably would have made it through the course! Of course hindsight is 20/20!

Response by Sgt Shane Kaiser made Sep 28 at 2015 9:28 PM

2015-09-28T21:28:26-04:00

I really doubt they received any extra training beyond the preRanger that all Army Ranger students receive from their parent units. I think that the women would have been peered out if they didn't pull their own weight. The peer eval system is, I think, the most powerful tool in the school for getting those out that should not be there. Training before the school I don't think really matters. I went through as a Marine and had zero training before hand. It really doesn't matter. They give the instruction of how they want it done when you get there. That said, I don't believe women belong in any grunt unit, but that is just me.

Response by COL Terry Simms made Sep 28 at 2015 10:39 PM

2015-09-28T22:39:15-04:00

Own merits of course...hey, anyone here interested in the Brooklyn Bridge for half price?!

Response by SFC James Needles made Sep 28 at 2015 11:07 PM

2015-09-28T23:07:41-04:00

I believe these Female Officers passed on their own merrit. I know a gentleman who is a former Ranger and a West Point graduate. This gentleman knows people and asked questions. I believe him when he says the standard was met. I know a young Female Officer who was the first Female Officer in history to be assigned to an XO position in a line unit of the 82nd Airborne Division. She was also one of the first women if not the first woman to be granted a position to attend the Infantry Officers Course. If not for that fact she may have also been in that first group of women to attend Ranger School. If she had attended that course I believe she would have graduated. I have heard that these woemen who graduated Ranger school got second chances and extra training. Every Leadership School I attended in my nearly 21 years of service gave their students a second chance at a task or phase. Nothing unusual there. These two women were invited to repeat the course (actually, there were three) as were a greater number of men because the Cadre felt they had earned that invitation. How many Rangers are there out there who failed their first attempt at Ranger School but graduated on the second. Doesn't their repeated attempt give them an advantage over a first timer just because they know what to expect? Here is my point. Ranger School is a Combat Leadership School. Graduating from Ranger School does not gaurantee assignment to one of the Battalions in the 75th Ranger Regiment. In nearly 21 years of service I saw lots of Officers and NCO's wearing the RANGER tab. Some of them were in support units, perhaps they reclassified as a support MOS, who knows. There are probably 3-5 support soldiers for every combat soldier out there. The modern battlefield essentially has no "front line" . Support units are targeted more in modern war fare than in the past because it is a lot easier to do so. When these types of units come under attack, and they will be attacked. I gaurantee you that there will be women in leadership positions from the top down. Our soldiers deserve the best leaders they can possibly have when the attack comes. If there is a Female Officer or NCO in that unit that just happens to be a Ranger then her soldiers will be a lot better off when that attack comes because she graduated from the best Combat Leadership School out there.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Sep 29 at 2015 12:38 PM

2015-09-29T12:38:04-04:00

This should not even be a question. Some people just want to discredit these rangers any way they can. Its sexism plain and simple.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 1:00 PM

2015-09-29T13:00:46-04:00

At a minimum they were prepped and coached. The Rangers I know did it on their own. No breaks. No slack. These ladies may be good soldiers, but by accepting favors they broke their oath. Definitely cases of respect the rank not the person in my opinion.

Response by MGySgt George W Iliffe Jr made Sep 29 at 2015 2:50 PM

2015-09-29T14:50:02-04:00

The whole issue of woman serving in direct combat units is pure political experimentation by the PC folks in Washington and the "Yes" men in the military who push for it. I don't doubt the bravery of woman in stressful conditions and combat, but across the population woman can not compete with men in the physical demands required. Those few who make the attempt are always going to be the exception.

Response by SFC Jason Porter made Sep 29 at 2015 3:00 PM

2015-09-29T15:00:33-04:00

Not sure why 2 negatives were warranted? This was a simple question.

Response by Lt Col Michael Thomas made Sep 29 at 2015 4:02 PM

2015-09-29T16:02:27-04:00

I think given the attrition rate for females and the agony these ladies went thru it is an insult to both them and their instructors to question the integrity of a system that was already under so much scrutiny.

Response by WO1 Jose R. made Sep 29 at 2015 4:12 PM

2015-09-29T16:12:34-04:00

I believe that they (woman) were not granted any speacial accompdations in order to pass this course. For a while it has been closed of to them and when granted the chance to attend in my opinion they would take the full integrity to pass without special treatment.

Response by MAJ Robert Wilson made Sep 29 at 2015 4:21 PM

2015-09-29T16:21:58-04:00

Absolutely. When I commanded a unit, all the women in the unit worked twice as hard as the guys did. I kept telling them that they didn't have to. I used it against my NCOs kiddingly telling them that I should get rid of all of them and only have women in the unit. The unit could accomplish anything that way.

Response by SSG Jeff Harris made Sep 29 at 2015 4:34 PM

2015-09-29T16:34:36-04:00

All I can say is this I know what it was like when I went through a bunch of rough necks from Nam were the instructor's now you tell me if they were still teaching it today do you really think any woman would pass

Response by SP5 Howard Moore made Sep 29 at 2015 4:45 PM

2015-09-29T16:45:51-04:00

absolutely no doubt they passed and I'm sure they were very well prepared before they started no commander worth a dam would set up a solider to fail it not only reflects bad on the soldier but himself as well

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Sep 29 at 2015 4:46 PM

2015-09-29T16:46:49-04:00

SSGT Robinson:
This is the Army and we do not condone special or individual treatment. It is hell being the first of anything. I have been the first female in my division, and my special treatment was getting punched in formation. I have been in programs where we had 14 females in a class of 180. Believe me if anything these two Soldiers has more stress and faced higher tension than the average Soldier. I doubt very serious they wanted all of this attention.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 4:56 PM

2015-09-29T16:56:58-04:00

I do not believe that the female students were subjected to a different standard than their male counterparts. I believe that they completed the course based on the current course requirements.

If you were to survey Ranger course graduates from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, and 2010s, I think that you would find that the experiences are not comparable. A Ranger student from the 1960s era probably would not have had a similar experience to a Ranger student in the modern era. Ranger School is a course that evolves to compliment the current operational environment.

So, it is not the TASK nor the STANDARD that has changed, it is the CONDITIONS under which that task are performed that has changed. It is the CONDITIONS under which a task are performed that influence how well or poorly the task is performed.

As an example, conduct a 5 mile run is a Task, within 40 minutes or less is a Standard. Now, we need to understand the conditions under which the task is performed. There is only one task, and there is only one standard, but, potentially, there can be multiple conditions under which that task is performed. The following can be considered conditions: Wearing ACU pants, tan t shirt, and boots; in a military formation; calling cadence; while maintaining not more than one arm's length distance from the student to your front.

Response by 1stSgt David Koskelowski made Sep 29 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-09-29T16:59:03-04:00

This is offensive to even imply that this is a possibility. The Ranger school is one of the toughest in all of the military. It is pass or fail. Once you complete the course, you are a Ranger, you have earned it. Like many other Special Operators, Rangers may be called upon to serve in special missions and given the opportunity to sacrifice their lives in the service of this great nation. The tab indicates you are a Ranger, not where you graduated in the class, who you teamed up with, or "if special considerations were made" to get you through the course. To these two newest Rangers, I proudly salute you and wish you luck in your chosen profession. Many will always doubt the accomplishments of those who succeed at something first. This is a major milestone in your careers and that of military history. Go out and do your job as Rangers and prove the doubters wrong.

Response by SP5 Howard Moore made Sep 29 at 2015 5:39 PM

2015-09-29T17:39:03-04:00

absolutely hell they were probably given more shit than the men just because of it

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Sep 29 at 2015 5:40 PM

2015-09-29T17:40:25-04:00

I do not know, If they did, shame on the Army. I do know that it takes the same amount of energy to combat the enemy no matter the age, gender or race of an individual. This should prove that we do not need multi standard testing. A soldier is a soldier and all soldiers should meet the same physical standards. Airborne Soldiers may need additional skills along with SF and Ranger so be it. But Basic soldier skills should be the same for all soldiers just as weapon qualification is so should PT , height and weight, and Uniform.

Response by 1SG Antwan Nicholson made Sep 29 at 2015 6:09 PM

2015-09-29T18:09:45-04:00

Is sad that one would even think they couldn't have made it on their own. They had all of their "Battle Buddies" to lean on for support and vise versa.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 6:32 PM

2015-09-29T18:32:14-04:00

I believe without a shadow of a doubt that these two Officers passed Ranger School on their own merits. I personally know the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade CSM. He is the epitome of doing things the Right way. He would NEVER encourage his instructors to bend the rules for anyone! The fact that people are calling professional Officers and Noncommissioned Officers integrity into question is appalling. The fact of the matter is these two Officers passed Ranger School. If you dont like it, Volunteer to get out. This will save someone from being involuntarily seperated due to Sequestration.

Response by SFC Ted Munson made Sep 29 at 2015 7:37 PM

2015-09-29T19:37:42-04:00

I would believe since they are both OFFICERS and have to hold and display a high standard of conduct and everything else like a officer should I do believe they made it through RS without any standards being lowered so they could graduate. Now I was a Bradley Master Gunner Instructor and our Brigade Commander saw how we use to score the students, for you only get one retest and if you fail that test then you go back to you home station. So this new Brigade Commander saw what was happening and was getting phone calls from all kinds of 11M Battalion Commanders saying they have invested a lot of money to send there soldiers to this school and something needs to change like giving more retest after retest and a third retest and so on, so we were approached by our Brigade Commander after he received the first no-go retests packets and said they will have a retest for a second time if they failed the first retest, then most of them did, the packets were sent to him for his signature to send them back home but then he puts on all of them they will receive a third to the last retest. Ok no this Col just lowered the standards for anyone on his own record and he did not bother to ask the instructors what we thought about three retests and all. This is when I and many other instructors said this has just turned into a giveme school and I myself like the other instructors no longer felt like this course was the cream of the crop type of school no more. Then after a few months went by we start hearing about most of these third time retest soldiers who were back at their home station was no performing their duties correctly as a Master Gunner and there companies were Q2s when there were on table 8 in Graf. So I look at it like this when standards are lowered someone is not going to perform like they should after they graduate and the whole meaning of high standards needs to stay in place no matter male or females going to a certain school or not. I fought in desert storm 91' 3rd Armored Div from Friedburg Germany and I had to start doing the company master gunner job because he too was one of those jokers who had retest after retest and didn't know jack bone what he was doing or when to do it, SLACKER!!! I do congratulate both female officers for completing RS and graduated for my hats off to them fully, for I have seen in Desert Storm while on the attack three female medics jumping off their M577S medic tracks and shooting and killing the enemy that were running from one fox hole to another with only their M16s and I thought to myself goodness these female soldiers can fight next to me anytime. I can only say they were fighting just like male soldiers were they were no weakening or crying they were up front and personal with the republican guard and taking them out. Being all said in this I truly would no mind at all having females in combat arms but there have to be some conditions put in place before they can be I believe. "SPARTANS KILLS TANKS".

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 8:18 PM

2015-09-29T20:18:40-04:00

For anyone to have thought that there were special concessions made in favor of these heroic female rangers is to take this great country back to the medieval times when women were often seen as weaklings and subservient. The most surprising fact is that most women have done excellently where some men woefully failed.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Sep 29 at 2015 9:19 PM

2015-09-29T21:19:26-04:00

SSgt Robinson:
Both of these Soldiers also graduated from West Point!!

Response by CW4 Abdulaziz Bulling made Sep 29 at 2015 9:27 PM

2015-09-29T21:27:34-04:00

What I believe is not relevant. I was not there and have no factual information other than hearsay, so I can not make any fact based assumption. Anything other than a fact based assumption is conjecture at best or slander at worst.

Response by CW4 Don Cummings made Sep 29 at 2015 9:32 PM

2015-09-29T21:32:30-04:00

No, I know peeps who have talked to the guys down there and they were told that the President (peice of crap) was coming and would be giving the women their award...such bullshit

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 9:36 PM

2015-09-29T21:36:04-04:00

I believe they were given special treatment or took testosterone. I have always been a top performing female. I am proud of the value I add to my unit and the Army as a whole. My question is this, did they pass the MALE APFT for 17 yr olds like their counterparts have to, to the same percentage standard? Why do we even have a female APFT standard if there are no physical differences? I thought the Army appreciates diversity. Now females must be like a male to be " the best"? I am, and will remain, 100% female AND 100% Soldier.

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Sep 29 at 2015 9:54 PM

2015-09-29T21:54:12-04:00

They did their thing! We should LEAVE it alone now! They Passed! Accept it and Move it! Sexism is more Paramount in the Military than any Organization in the World!

Response by COL Bill McFarland made Sep 29 at 2015 10:14 PM

2015-09-29T22:14:33-04:00

I have seen nothing to indicate that they did not pass in the same way everyone else passes.

Response by COL Jim Lincoln made Sep 29 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-09-29T23:26:31-04:00

As a Ranger graduate,we insist on maintaining the standards of the course. I can tell you that the CG at Ft Benning visited the school just before the two women graduated,and checked on the status,grading and monitoring of the women. As the women progressed through the 2 months,he continuously checked that all standards were being met-after they passed the first 4 days--6 pullups,50 situps and 50 pushups in 2 mion,and a 5 mile run in 40 min,plus the forced march (about 40% of the men didint make it) they were over the hardest part.
They made it fair and square--!

Response by CPL Timothy Lane made Sep 30 at 2015 2:19 AM

2015-09-30T02:19:01-04:00

I had the distinct Honor to Serve with many Rangers during my four and a half plus years as a Combat Engineer in the Army Core of Engineers. 86-91 if the commitment and core values were held those two Rangers will prove them selves for a long time.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 2:28 AM

2015-09-30T02:28:37-04:00

yes they earned it

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Sep 30 at 2015 4:44 AM

2015-09-30T04:44:11-04:00

Do you believe Carl Brashear passed Navy diver school on his own merit or was he given special treatment? Despite the special treatment he passed. The military has always been the place for individual and equal rights. We had a right to a fair trial, were intergraded, received retirement benefits, and healthcare before the our civilian counterparts.
Support service members and not bash them. Only 6% of the population are in the military or are veterans. We are the minority!

Response by SSG Robert Spina made Sep 30 at 2015 7:25 AM

2015-09-30T07:25:31-04:00

THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION

Response by CW4 Becky Brashears made Sep 30 at 2015 8:31 AM

2015-09-30T08:31:37-04:00

According to their classmates, they embraced exactly the same suck as them. Hooah to both of the women who met the challenge and earned the tab, and their classmates who did the same, but with the additional burden of doing so under the unrelenting eye of a skeptical public.

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 30 at 2015 9:10 AM

2015-09-30T09:10:38-04:00

The trickle continues...

A former Army Ranger instructor said on Tuesday that he has been in contact with the office of an Oklahoma congressman who is questioning if the women who passed Ranger School last month got special treatment.

Michael “Bubba” Moore said he talked to an aide in Rep. Steve Russell’s office about two weeks ago and put the office in contact with people “on the ground” in the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade at Fort Benning...

Asked if he connected anybody on Russell’s staff with Ranger instructors, Moore answered, “F--- yeah.”

Moore referred to them as “people on the ground” and not Ranger instructors. He said they were in the Ranger Training Brigade.

“They’re everywhere,” he said. “There everywhere. They keep popping up.”

Read more here: http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/local/military/article36961158.html#storylink=cpy

Veteran critical of female Rangers says he put training brigade personnel in contact with...

A former Army Ranger instructor said on Tuesday that he has been in contact with the office of an Oklahoma congressman who is questioning if the women who passed Ranger School last month got special treatment.

Response by SSG Dwayne Bellmon made Sep 30 at 2015 10:28 AM

2015-09-30T10:28:02-04:00

I believe no extra or special treatment were given to these outstanding Soldiers to think otherwise is ridiculous they deserved the merits and congrats from the Ranger's community and their commands

Response by Sgt Ronnie Mack made Sep 30 at 2015 10:56 AM

2015-09-30T10:56:29-04:00

Hell, if they meet and or met all requirements given and passed. Why the hell not?!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 11:18 AM

2015-09-30T11:18:16-04:00

yes, I do believe that passed on their own merits. I think women have a stronger threshold for certain things that men do not. they did not get special treatment, for people to say that are just angry because Ranger school is no longer just a guys only club......

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Sep 30 at 2015 12:09 PM

2015-09-30T12:09:38-04:00

SSgt Alex Robinson I believe that these 2 officers met the standards for award of the Ranger tab without modification. This continual questioning is disrespectful to these officers.

Stay on the tank.

Response by SP5 Joel McDargh made Sep 30 at 2015 1:01 PM

2015-09-30T13:01:01-04:00

On a personal level I do believe these women were given special treatment. I was stationed at 600 Quartermaster Company, Ft brag, NC when the first two women to go to jump school and several others joined our unit. By many of their own admission they were given special treatment as far as the physical training went. Call me biased, but it is what I believe unless proven otherwise.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-09-30T13:33:03-04:00

Every generational Soldier has a perspective on this topic. I have a close friend of my fathers who once instructed at the Florida Phase of Ranger School in the 70’s, believe he told me he helped setup that phase. He was a Green Beret in Vietnam 1966-1967. Old school like my father, who served with Bill Bowman in Germany with 10th Special Forces in 1964. They both say no way this is possible, if the course was run according to the standards once set forth at its conception.

Times change and so do standards. Just look at our military now and then. Now you don’t even have to pass the physical fitness test to graduate basic? There are different HT/WT standards and PT test standards for females. If we all want to be honest, then if you want to be here then there is one standard for ALL and that’s it. Understanding age plays a part and those charts are age and gender dependent. When I went through Airborne School 1989, females ran in their own formations separate from the males. Pullups were on a lowered bar and their bodies were at an incline.

There is much luck involved in completing the Ranger course, as is skill with determination. It’s about knowing yourself or learning about what your mind is capable of accomplishing in some harsh training environments. How to overcome those fears and accomplish the mission. If my memory serves me, Ranger school entry was 52 PU 62 SU and I think under 14:00 2 mile run or close to that? 6 dead hang pullups after the run at the instructor’s cadence and then off to the pool for swim, blind drop into the pool with gear and equipment drop under the water. All while the instructors were harassing the shit out of us. There was a 5 mile run in there at 6.5 min miles , the worm pit and on in on during City Week. One smoke session after smoke session. All this with little or no sleep and less and less food each day. My squad was decimated after the first week and we were rolled into a new squad for the ruck-march out to Camp Darby.

There were underlying issues then. Ranger BAT Boys taking care of their own, the peer evals, Tab protectors and instructors who had a bad day and no one was getting a go. Even if you did it correctly, it was wrong. You can recycle once each phase and some get to repeat the entire course if the transgression was bad enough. If you could fly under the radar, not attract attention to yourself, not get injured, not quit – you were most likely going to complete the course eventually.

All this said, I just wonder what really happened?

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 1:53 PM

2015-09-30T13:53:20-04:00

At this point, I think the debate over making it through the training is just about pointless. It happened. Either they earned it or they didn't. What I think really matters now is how well they represent the tradition and honor of the Tab in the execution of their duties.

Response by LTC Ed Ross made Sep 30 at 2015 2:00 PM

2015-09-30T14:00:58-04:00

The question implies that no two American women exist than could pass ranger training, and, of course, that's ridiculous. Anyone who has ever gone through ranger, special forces, SEAL or other trading knows it's not completely about body strength. Mental strength and determination also play a role, something women possess in abundance.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 2:02 PM

2015-09-30T14:02:18-04:00

I believe they passed on their own merits. And I say good for them.

Response by 1SG Tom Pirrone made Sep 30 at 2015 2:11 PM

2015-09-30T14:11:56-04:00

As a RS graduate (Class 12-94) I believe that these two soldiers pasted the course on their own accord. I would expect nothing less from the RI's and the Command of the RTB to maintain the standards of the course. This I believe because as Ranger's we live by a Creed that states in paragraph 1 " I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of the Rangers". Unless you have lived the life and lived by the Creed then comments should be restricted to what you know or have accomplished. To the two resent graduates I say well come to the Brotherhood of Rangers.

Response by 1SG Tom Pirrone made Sep 30 at 2015 2:34 PM

2015-09-30T14:34:39-04:00

As a RS graduate, (class 12-94) I truly believe the RI's and the RTB Command would maintain the course standards. As Rangers we live by a creed and in paragraph 1 of that Creed it states " I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of my ranger regiment". As Ranger's our word is our honor. If you haven't earned the TAB, and lived the Ranger life, you should reserve your comments to what you have accomplished.
This was a political experiment that currently will have no benefit to the Combat Arms (CA) career fields. Once again Congress has put the cart in front of the horse by allowing female to attend the course before they decide which MOS's they will allow them to fill. Don't misunderstand me, the skills that these two soldiers obtained will provide them with great leadership skills in non- CA organizations, but it also took RS slots away from soldiers that are serving in CA units.
Believe me these two soldiers accomplished an amazing feat and I would like to welcome them both to the Ranger brotherhood.

RLTW

Response by SGT Myra Castillo made Sep 30 at 2015 3:01 PM

2015-09-30T15:01:14-04:00

I believe they passed on theirs own strength and strong will.

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 30 at 2015 5:06 PM

2015-09-30T17:06:52-04:00

That was fast...

"A former Ranger instructor who provided information and potential sources to an Oklahoma congressman’s office about the first Ranger School class to include women, said on Wednesday Rep. Steve Russell’s staff contacted him first.

“First of all, I was not the one who started any of this,” said Michael “Bubba” Moore in a phone interview. “Russell was already doing his own thing. I had no idea who Russell was.”

He said he doesn’t know how the congressman’s office got his name or phone number, but that he was contacted by Cody Hoefer, Russell’s defense and military adviser."

Read more here: http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/local/military/article37111038.html#storylink=cpy

Retired Ranger says congressman contacted him first about female Ranger grads

A former Ranger instructor who provided information and potential sources to an Oklahoma congressman’s office about the first Ranger School class to include women, said on Wednesday Rep. Steve Russell’s staff contacted him first.

Response by SFC Mamerto Perez made Sep 30 at 2015 6:43 PM

2015-09-30T18:43:56-04:00

The Women will always have different standards just like PT>

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Sep 30 at 2015 6:45 PM

2015-09-30T18:45:15-04:00

What everyone seems to be forgetting is they were re-cycled several times and repeated at least two of the Phases. I know lot's of males that elected not to be re-cycled so this alone shows their tenacity and determination....... Suck It Up and Drive On Ladies! They have my respect.

Response by PFC Donnie Harold Harris made Sep 30 at 2015 6:49 PM

2015-09-30T18:49:25-04:00

Well, it is funny that you should ask. I was @ fort Benning in 73. I was stationed in the barracks right next to the one where the Rangers lived. We were a training support company and took them out to the field for training. I would have to say that No they got no special treatment. How could that have even ben Possible?

Response by SFC Edwin Watson made Sep 30 at 2015 7:18 PM

2015-09-30T19:18:45-04:00

I believe they were, to a small degree, given more opportunities than some males who had gone through and bolo'd phases before, but there were probably males at times who were given additional chances as well. Nothing extreme, but I believe it happened to a degree. There are those in high places who were pushing for this to happen, so get over it. Same with any new program. The commanders in these units they are going to need to devise a set of gender-neutral testing standards (to include APFT) so as to eliminate any issues going forward. An M16 will weigh the same no matter what gender is carrying it, and that is what the APFT should be based on.

Response by Cpl Clinton Britt made Sep 30 at 2015 8:32 PM

2015-09-30T20:32:42-04:00

Some one who wants to accomplish anything bad enough, it will happen

Response by PO2 Peter Klein made Sep 30 at 2015 9:09 PM

2015-09-30T21:09:25-04:00

Why shouldn't we believe it? Are you a misogynist?

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Sep 30 at 2015 9:57 PM

2015-09-30T21:57:37-04:00

I am not a Ranger. I have friends, men I have worked with for years that are Rangers, some of them were Ranger Instructors (RI) at Ranger School. I am certain not one of these men would give a special break to any Ranger candidate, and certainly not a female Ranger candidate. First, I know them to be honorable professionals. Second, I don't think any one of them would want to be the RI who "let her get by". I think it is highly probable that the RIs today have the same excellent character traits. If there is any question of the evaluation, it is not the RIs.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Oct 1 at 2015 8:31 AM

2015-10-01T08:31:48-04:00

I believe that they were held to the same standards. That said, I would love to hear what their male classmates say about this.

Response by SSG Jeff Binkiewicz made Oct 1 at 2015 9:26 AM

2015-10-01T09:26:47-04:00

To be honest I do not know. I was not there, but the fact remains they graduated. Now, I may be way off base, but after reading many opinions I have come to a few conclusions. People always mention keep the standards. The standards probably were kept, that's not the issue I see. The course, as well as others have been modified over the years. There is no don't in my mind that a woman would have been hard pressed to pass this school as well as others, had the been the same course I attended years ago still been in place. This is just my opinion, but it seems to me, over the years, the Army has changed from wanting only the best for the whole, to having maybe "ok" to please individual wants and needs. I have said it before, let everybody do what they want. Example, I want to be an Apache pilot. Lets change the curriculum so that I can pass. I have bad eye sight, so what, I want to be An Apache pilot so I should be allowed to. Is it better to have just a few well qualified people under the toughest of situations or a lot of qualified people under less than tough conditions. I feel it will reflect in the future. Just one other question I have is now that women are allowed to attend Ranger School, how will the slots be divided. I know when I went in 1993 priority went to combat arms. Are we going to send those who would really benefit from this course, ie "combat arms", or those who just want to use to further their chances for promotion?

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2015 10:25 AM

2015-10-01T10:25:12-04:00

I am so sick and tired of reading about people questioning whether they got special treatment or not. I do not believe they did. if they would have they would have been passed through their first go round and not recycled like the others that failed the first phase.

this story is starting to sound like the beating of a "dead horse dead again" the guys that question whether these two female officers passed on their own accord are just jealous and angry that they could not do the same. get over yourselves already and move on.

these officers deserve their tabs, honor and respect, not jealousy, hateful comments, and most of all "penis" envy.

Response by Sgt James Howard made Oct 1 at 2015 10:32 AM

2015-10-01T10:32:58-04:00

I kind of doubt that they passed on their own merits. Either way, we have had the best military in the world for a couple hundred years now. Why mess with it?

Response by SSG John Erny made Oct 1 at 2015 11:46 AM

2015-10-01T11:46:55-04:00

Do you have a Ranger Tab on your uniform? Have you been to Ranger school? If not then you really have no voice in the matter other than wishing them well.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2015 4:47 PM

2015-10-01T16:47:30-04:00

I am not even sure why this is still a topic. These two amazing soldiers made it thru every single stage of the Ranger qualification and we should be so fortunate to have witness history rather than questioning their abilities.
The fact that they had the guts to go thru it should be enough. Questioning their success is questioning the integrity of their team, and that graduation class as a whole. Questioning their success is saying that the male that graduated with them are nothing but a bunch wimps with no spines, no moral courage to stand up for what is wrong, and worst of all they lack integrity. If that is the case, then this conversation should be about them and their lack of personal courage and professionalism to uphold the Ranger Creed and the Ranger standard. I will be the first one to say shame on them.
Who the heck are we to decide the success or failure of an individual base on their race, gender or sexual orientation? There were put against a standard and they smoked it! I just dropped the mic  .

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2015 6:15 PM

2015-10-01T18:15:03-04:00

I do not challenge someone's integrity unless they cause me to.

Response by CPT Jim Prater made Oct 1 at 2015 7:33 PM

2015-10-01T19:33:01-04:00

It would be interesting to hear in confidence from the fellow ranger candidates if any special priviliges were granted or if they were in fact held to the same standards.
That said, women exercise more than women of yesteryear and i know for fact many can outrun the fastest of men. To physically endure the same training as men, ill leave that open to future discussion once the confidential statements are examined from the men of that class.

Response by SPC Anna Larson made Oct 1 at 2015 8:43 PM

2015-10-01T20:43:44-04:00

I don't know about their situation and their pass/fail strategy. The big question I have is what happened to the military uniform rule where a woman's hair must not be so short as to appear unfeminine? Apparently based on those photos, they don't have any hair left. Anyway just something that ticked me off since I was actually written up once for "unfeminine" hair and it was far longer than theirs.

Response by 1LT Kathleen Heisler made Oct 1 at 2015 9:40 PM

2015-10-01T21:40:46-04:00

I believe they made through on their own merits

Response by CPL Carolyn L. Day made Oct 1 at 2015 10:28 PM

2015-10-01T22:28:49-04:00

As a woman myself, having been in the military also; NO matter WHAT a WOMAN looks like, being surrounded by a BUNCH of MEN. Some and I do mean to say some of those men showed those women favors, PRAYING deep down that when one or both of those women would become a little interested in them to; "JUST A LITTLE BIT"........lol

Response by CPL Terry Krebs made Oct 2 at 2015 1:55 AM

2015-10-02T01:55:12-04:00

I say let's look at the test scores and let's look at how long they were allowed to train and prepare for ranger school. They all flunked out of the first weeks of training then were allowed to retest. How were male candidates treated on these same issues and how long were there wait to retest???
What was the generals meaning when he said "there will be females pass for ranger school?

Response by SSG Jerry Flores made Oct 2 at 2015 2:56 AM

2015-10-02T02:56:04-04:00

Yes, I do think they received some special treatment. Talking from experience, as a AIT Drill, we had the first female in our transportation class. She was appointed Acting Shergeant stripes and appointed Assitant Platoon Sergeant, for the media. Army Times along with local newspapers came to see this "7th Wonder of the World" perform. The woman could not drive any of the military vehicles at the school, however, when the news media, there she was in Class A uniform driving, or I should say sitting at behind the wheel, while one of the NCO's (hidden) did the shifting and actually drove the vehicle while she waved to the reporters. The Commander thought she should be driving a sedan instead, so that was brought in for her to drive for the media, however, the photos were of her driving a 1/4 ton, 2 1/2 ton a 2000D. This woman was unwelcomed and unwanted by the troops in her unit and NCO's as well.. She of course, dwelled on the publicity, as did the Commander, whose photo was also featured in the newspapers where he spoke very highly of the first female 94C in the Army, bottom line, he really didn't know her nor did he know of her incapability of driving any military vehicle..

Response by PO3 Thomas Dickey made Oct 2 at 2015 11:24 AM

2015-10-02T11:24:45-04:00

Special treatment all the way. The military has cut it's mandatory fitness in half for women in general, who's to say that's not the case, here?

Response by TSgt Ivory Hutt made Oct 2 at 2015 12:45 PM

2015-10-02T12:45:04-04:00

I think they passed won their own merit. If we cannot get past the fact that women are just as good as men, we will never be able to get past other issues regarding race, genders, etc. Congrats to them for working hard and rising far above that what was expected of them. They raised the bar, so now lets start giving women the respect they deserve.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-10-02T16:05:53-04:00

I think anyone who feels these two women were not held to the same standards are not attacking these two women, but instead the instructional institution at the course. Even if told to provide special treatment, this is in no way a lawful order, so it is on the cadre to decide whether or not to execute this request and to highlight the corruption if it does exist. As NCOs, this is part of their duty, so if these women did in fact get special treatment, then the accountability ultimately does not rest on them in my eyes.

If we want to stop the hateful remarks, we have to stop throwing people into the spotlight, but that won't happen any time soon thanks to the media of today. There are standards to meet, and to say that women cannot--yet men can--meet said standards has already been proven wrong for years; we have seen not all men are made from the same material, and many who try do not successfully make it through the entirety of the Ranger school. I don't have the data on how many men roll back three times in each of the Phases, but does it really matter? Males were given the same opportunities to continue the course that these three women were. To instantly presume that no woman has the physical, mental, or emotional capacity to complete this course is just ignorance talking. When we use this as a platform for women to pound their chests, however, we open it up for scrutiny.

If I'm not mistaken, the intentions of this course are to provide leadership qualities and enhance skillsets, so to withhold the course from women doesn't make much sense to me, anyway; I think there is still much discussion to be done in regards to where women can and will be integrated into specific forces as they provide combat capabilities in a joint environment, but opening this school up to women does not really factor into that debate.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2015 7:29 PM

2015-10-02T19:29:13-04:00

I don't mind if they were given extra training, as long as they met the standards! They probably have not been trained like the men have been!

Response by LTC John Wilson made Oct 2 at 2015 8:41 PM

2015-10-02T20:41:30-04:00

First of all this question should never have to be answered in a social forum or anywhere else. I believe in the integrity of the Officers and NCO's that run the School and I don't believe they will make any exceptions to any candidate in spite of a General's wishes. I admit is is a first! I also admit that the cadre felt they were qualified to become Rangers and they earned the Tab. Now if you can show me other wise? I will rethink my comment. Rangers Lead The Way!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2015 9:54 PM

2015-10-02T21:54:17-04:00

Yes i do, two LTs in my company went to West Point with them and they both say that if Ranger school had lowered their standards for them, they both would have quit

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Oct 2 at 2015 10:03 PM

2015-10-02T22:03:30-04:00

It doesn't matter what I think. They got the same chances to pass as there male counter parts. I have a friend (a Marine) who does not think they belong.

Response by SGT Jonah Miller made Oct 2 at 2015 10:38 PM

2015-10-02T22:38:03-04:00

When I went through BCT we had lots of females in our company. Not a single female passed all of the required ruck marches and PT tests. They were just pushed along. It is a shame what the army has become, a shadow of its former self.

Response by SSG Lobo Mar made Oct 3 at 2015 12:45 AM

2015-10-03T00:45:55-04:00

they were helped by democrats

Response by SSG Lobo Mar made Oct 3 at 2015 12:51 AM

2015-10-03T00:51:59-04:00

the ladies? were given special treatment and then some. they stole the patch. next thing they want is to play in the NFL and in major league baseball. Consider this. 3 out of 4 players in the WNBA as of right now are lesbians.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Oct 3 at 2015 12:44 PM

2015-10-03T12:44:11-04:00

I believe that pressure from this politically correct nation drove some to want it pushed these females WILL pass just to appease someone somewhere in a nice cushy office in D.C. I also believe that the females under fire probably didnt even know they were patsies and got help that they more than likely didnt need. As all things of high profile it will be quickly thrown under the carpet and a gag order has already been issued. I would even go as far as to say that I believe a few promotions were tossed out for those who carefully orchestrated the whole thing. I just hope Im wrong, but doubt I am. Did Demi Moore have anything to do with this???

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Oct 3 at 2015 2:00 PM

2015-10-03T14:00:24-04:00

"Extra training" is not necessarily "special treatment." Every single person on RallyPoint has been in a situation where someone in their group got extra training, or got a second attempt to pass a test, or something like that. And that's a good thing, too because the attrition rate in ANYTHING would be absurdly high if we all washed out on our first failure.

Officials bending the rules is far more problematic, depending on the rules, and how they were bent.

Response by PO1 T.M. Ritchie made Oct 3 at 2015 5:39 PM

2015-10-03T17:39:23-04:00

That female pictured has "Monkey Jaws" a condition that results from extended HGH/steroid use....judge for yourself..It is that bulge in her jaw in front of her ear you see. And of course absolutely no breasts...

Response by Sgt Ken Prescott made Oct 4 at 2015 1:43 PM

2015-10-04T13:43:28-04:00

Well, this thread illustrates that when all is said and done, a great deal more gets said than done. (o8

Response by PO2 Dan Englund made Oct 4 at 2015 4:29 PM

2015-10-04T16:29:32-04:00

Yes, I do. I did 12 yrs Navy. My wife retired Navy. I have nieces and nephews in all the services. My sister is LE and again, nieces and nephews in LE. They all perform above and beyond expectations.

Response by 1SG Jacob Baty made Oct 4 at 2015 5:20 PM

2015-10-04T17:20:57-04:00

As a former RI and having good friends still serving as instructors in RTB. My buddies have said the ladies are legit.

Response by SFC Bobby Thompson made Oct 4 at 2015 6:03 PM

2015-10-04T18:03:54-04:00

If the military ever returns back to the way things were in World War II doing a lot of hand to hand combat, do you really want to put our women on the front lines? We have enough able bodied men that should be there first.

Response by SFC Bobby Thompson made Oct 4 at 2015 6:22 PM

2015-10-04T18:22:53-04:00

I think politicians are ruining the military! They think that having women go through the Army's Ranger School is a great accomplishment. The men in these Ranger Battalions are the Army's first option incase a war breakout. How can we expect that they will be able to just hop on an air plane and not knowing where they are going if they are full of women. This would be a very bad mistake for the Army if they allow this to happen.
Leaders in uniforms have to take a stance every know and then even if they have to retire. First they took the Rangers Black Beret, now they want to integrate women into the Rangers. The next thing is to have openly gay and transgender Rangers. All these big creative changes happen during democratic administrations and creates votes. Every one remember that!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 7:50 AM

2015-10-05T07:50:15-04:00

Anyone can go and take measures ahead of time to try to better prepare themselves for Ranger School prior to attending. I don't believe these women were given any special treatment because I haven't any sufficient reason to doubt the legitimacy of the course as they went through it. That and I've known some women to do some pretty incredible physical feats. Hell, I married a rancher's daughter. I know she can kick some serious tail if she needs to, lol.

Response by CPL Brian Clouser made Oct 5 at 2015 4:03 PM

2015-10-05T16:03:29-04:00

I hope they pass on their own, but I doubt it. The reason why I doubt it, is because their PT standards is lower than the males.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Oct 15 at 2015 12:34 PM

2015-10-15T12:34:14-04:00

It is despicable that this question is even being asked. Do Congressmen question any male recruits about special treatment? No. This is blatant sexism and an abuse of office to try and smear the female rangers. Disgusting.

Response by TSgt James Jan made Oct 15 at 2015 8:44 PM

2015-10-15T20:44:32-04:00

I have seen many strong, all muscle women while I was federal agent They don't generally possess the upper body strength of a but women can endure pain for long periods of time. I don't believe the process was fixed. As an investigator you cannot keep a conspiracy secret for a long time before someone gives up the truth. I don't see DOD doing anything special for them so they could pass the course. My only regret is that they are not allowed to use these hard fought for skills.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Oct 16 at 2015 8:59 AM

2015-10-16T08:59:58-04:00

They passed by today's standards! Are today's standards and ethics the same as years passed? If you say no, then you believe the Ranger School was tougher back in the day and not as tough today. If you say yes, you believe that these two officers made it through the course with their own determination and grit. I would like to believe the latter. I will not say they passed Ranger School with cadre help or leeway of some sort. To do so would Slight the Cadre that I respect and hold to high standards. Rangers Lead the Way and Hopefully have not compromised the high standards of this leadership school.

Response by MSgt Donald G. made Oct 21 at 2015 3:03 PM

2015-10-21T15:03:56-04:00

I suppose the best way to tell is when their records are released. Until then , speculators will speculate.

Response by CW4 Juan Morales made Oct 25 at 2015 2:58 PM

2015-10-25T14:58:50-04:00

All soldiers deserve outstanding leadership. I graduated with class 10-98 and could not have done any of it without the support of my squad. I wholeheartedly believe those women gave 100% and then some, while facing the challenge of people in their own community who were rooting for them to fail. It is this Ranger's humble opinion that any unit that these women are assigned to is lucky to have them, as they have survived the crucible with determination and intestinal fortitude. A lot of the commenters here do not have the experience of attending this particular school, and their doubts are born of disbelief, ignorance and cognitive dissonance. I for one, am proud to call Rangers Griest, Haver and Jaster sisters, and should I meet any one of them or all three, the first round of beers is on me.
Rangers Lead The Way.

Response by CPT Elizabeth Foster made Oct 26 at 2015 10:52 PM

2015-10-26T22:52:47-04:00

Of course the success of 2 females in Ranger school sparks the discourse of discussions as to whether or not they passed of their own merit. I'm betting it's been a very long time since anyone questioned the passing of any male soldier. Why is it so difficult for men to believe there are actually females with the physical, intellectual, and psychological fitness to pass this rigorous course?!? Never, ever, not even once was I, as a female cadet or officer ever given any sort of special treatment during training, and often found myself to be the only female in the entire group. At 5ft tall and 115 lbs, I would agree that most, if not all of the males I trained with were bigger and stronger than me physically, but I was absolutely, if not more intelligent and level headed as any of them. In fact, they often became more bent out of shape than I did over simple things! Anger, aggressiveness, ego, and the desire for power can be just as detrimental to a leader's judgement as any other emotional response.
As far as special training prior to the course, I would imagine that none of the females were infantry officers and training them in basic infantry skills would only serve to level the playing field, not tilt it to their advantage.

Response by MAJ Bill Darling made Oct 28 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-10-28T17:58:54-04:00

Given the history of the DoD when it comes to sex integration, and how the US Army addresses "tests" (predetermined outcome), I'd tend to believe some quarter was given. From a purely cosmetic perspective (if I understand the standards correctly) males' heads are shaved and the women weren't required to. And if standards were maintained, why the "need" for female liaisons at the school? If these two rather innocuous sets of standards were not maintained, what guarantees do we have that much more stringent and serious ones were?

Response by CPT William Ainley made Nov 29 at 2015 10:48 PM

2015-11-29T22:48:46-05:00

Who knows? There are females in the military just as dedicated as their male counterparts, not only mentally, but physically. It doesn't matter to me one way or another.

Response by SSG Kenneth Wickersham made Nov 30 at 2015 6:16 AM

2015-11-30T06:16:33-05:00

It's an Infantry school and being that there aren't any women in the infantry they should not have been allowed to attend Ranger School

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 30 at 2015 1:17 PM

2015-11-30T13:17:25-05:00

There is one true test and that is the battlefield.

Response by CPT John Hanaberry made Jun 8 at 2018 10:52 PM

2018-06-08T22:52:30-04:00

Ranger tab. Nov ‘ 66. In ‘ OLD’ Ranger school there were NO RECYCLES except medical you got ONE shot to complete in 9 WEEKS NOT 4 to 6 MONTHS why have standards been lowered SO much? So girls could pass? RVN Inf Combat Vet Ranger Advisor Vietnamese Army ‘ 68 - ‘ 69

Response by SSG Ken Steinhoff made Apr 18 at 2019 9:17 AM

2019-04-18T09:17:29-04:00

My son was one of the instructors when the first female went to Ranger school from West Point they will push through the school and the standards were different for example a male soldier can be recycled if he failed leader ship of the females were not graded on that The learner ship by their peers And as you know you know you can only be recycle two times but you cannot fail the same course twice since the females were not graded on leader ship by their peers they were allowed to fail two times on the same event So that right there shows your double standards males can get kicked out for leader ship females can females can feel the land now course twice males can’t