Do you believe the divide between the civilian population and the military population is widening?

Sgt Joe LaBranche — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:24:37 -0500

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jan 21 at 2016 10:29 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:29:56 -0500

I think the gulf between those who serve in the military and the larger civilian population is widening in the cities but staying the same in rural areas where more military personnel still come from Sgt Joe LaBranche

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jan 21 at 2016 10:32 AM

LTC Bink Romanick — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:32:36 -0500

Sgt Joe LaBranche I'd say that it's widening because so few Americans serve these days. If you haven't had the experience, you don't understand it. The service members live and work on military bases where the don't have much contact with civilians and some of what they do have is negative. There in lies the problem.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 21 at 2016 10:35 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:35:47 -0500

We're becoming "Foreigners" to Americans. Rather than being a reflection of Society, we are becoming outliers.

I'm not sure that I am phrasing this correctly, however I believe that if you look at the Military as a "Foreign Land" and Service Members as People who have requested to Immigrate to said Foreign Land. We go there, acclimate, and become Citizens. Then when return "Home" we are "different" than we were when we left. We sought new opportunities and we found them. We returned home for whatever reason, nostalgia, family, time, etc... but we're no longer part of the same Society.

CC: Capt Richard I P. 1LT William Clardy

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2016 10:36 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:36:30 -0500

... the fact is ... there is always a gap between military and civilian ... always, nothing you can do.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 21 at 2016 10:54 AM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:54:29 -0500

I believe that the majority of Americans get their "information" about military life from two sources.

1) Hollywood, where exciting screen images and contorted relationships make for good entertainment, but have nothing do with real tactics, operations, strategy and leadership.

2) Vocal miscreants that were bounced from the military, who need to paint unrealistic picture that "explain" why it wasn't their fault that they were bounced.

Response by Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM made Jan 21 at 2016 11:28 AM

Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:28:04 -0500

Unfortunately You are correct. Some Civilians like myself have noticed a greater divide between the veteran and the civilian, some of us are able to break down the barriers, but to be honest, Veterans do not trust anyone other than their brother or sisters in arms. So what is expected of the civilian? I have assisted 1392 veterans-to date- all on my dime and my time. Am I to walk away because of this divide?

Response by 1LT Aaron Barr made Jan 21 at 2016 11:46 AM

1LT Aaron Barr — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:46:22 -0500

I would tend to agree with this but think that the issue is fairly generational. Over 8 million men served in WWII in various branches of the military. The numbers aren't as high for Korea or Vietnam but still very high relative to today.

Today, there is no draft, the military is all-volunteer and it's MUCH smaller than during the Cold War so there's not as much demand for servicemembers anymore. I think that this is the root cause of this disconnect and it creates a number of problems.

On the civilian side, I think there's this sort of odd cognitive dissonance where we're all stereotyped(except by the lunatic fringe of the left) as heroes who all end up homeless, unemployed and addled by PTSD. Worse, the disconnect leaves both voters and politicians oftentimes ignorant of the military and not in a good position to make informed decisions as to its use.

However, I think the worst of the disconnect may come from the military itself. I'm not to proud to admit that I've used the term 'civilian' in a pejorative sense on many occasions and still do to this day. Nor do I think the phenomenon of holding the very people we're sworn to protect and serve in increasing contempt is unique to me. The full danger of this is the military deciding to get involved in politics. When Truman dismissed MacArthur, he didn't come back to the States and try to rally Army divisions to march on D.C. and install him as a military dictator. But the increased ignorance of politicians and public, coupled with an increasing contempt of civilians, creates the risk of ending this.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2016 11:47 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:47:52 -0500

That's not really an easy question to answer, if we look back at Vietnam and the relationship the military had with most of the civilian population things were much worse than they are today. If we look back ten years, I suspect the gap has widened a bit again.

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Jan 21 at 2016 12:09 PM

SSG Michael Scott — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:09:55 -0500

Yeah, foreigners, transplants, terrorists, bad people who have used a gun to defend their freedom and rights, and having the chance to label me.

Response by SPC David S. made Jan 21 at 2016 12:44 PM

SPC David S. — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:44:43 -0500

Not sure if there's something in the water but 3 Marines, 2 Army officers and my self all live on the same block. So there is a much higher concentration of vets or service members in my neck of the woods. I don't live near any military complex either just the way it is. As we have many socials I feel at least the civilians are aware that there are many men and women doing some hard work. As the MAJ is still in uniform there is that "women in the military" bewilderment as that couple, ring knockers, are a recent addition. As to the shop talk that stays pretty much stays boxed in but they see how we connect on a different level than they do. However in conversations I still thank many of them wonder as to why we ever signed up. That is something that I think if you truly understand you more than likely served.

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Jan 21 at 2016 12:52 PM

PO2 Mark Saffell — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:52:04 -0500

I'd have to agree. Seems like it happens when they no longer need us. I joined in 1975. That was the end of Viet Nam. People hated us. I was stationed in San Francisco. We never wore our uniforms off base and the Navy told us not to travel in uniform. That to me is so sad and should be a black eye for America when your active duty military aren't allowed to travel in uniform because they feared for our safety. You young guys...Less than 50 have no idea what it was like in the 70's as military.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Jan 21 at 2016 1:02 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:02:47 -0500

When less than 1% serve, this is inevitable. It is one of the worst downsides of the all-volunteer force.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jan 21 at 2016 1:27 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:27:20 -0500

It's a different overall lifestyle, which is why we have basic training to have civilians turn into members of the military, and a transitioning program for troops to go back to a different lifestyle. There are of course some skills that can be brought to and from, but the overall mission is different which is the reason for the divide. We can't and shouldn't have civilians live like they are serving and military members need to have a different mindset while serving.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Jan 21 at 2016 1:33 PM

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:33:57 -0500

A few thoughts to support the argument that the civilian population and the military population have a divide that is growing larger:
- Currently there are about 330 million Americans. There are about 3 million Americans who are/have served in the military (about 1%). In WWII there were about 100 million Americans with about 20 million serving in the military (20%). 1/8 US males (12.5%) fought in the Battle of Gettysburg alone in 1863.
- American society is not a warrior society. The US military is a warrior culture. It is easier to support a warrior class within a warrior society (Spartans, Apache, Zulu) than to support a warrior class within a non warrior society.
- America does not evenly support and enter the US military. The South, for example, supports and enters the US military at a far greater rate than the Northeast (New England States) or the West (CA, OR, WA).
- I don't have numbers but seems like military service is becoming more of a hereditary occupation (sons/daughters of service members more likely to serve in the military).
- The percentage of Congressman (Senate, House) with prior military experience is at its lowest that it has ever been. After WWII, I believe it was about 30%. Now it is about 5% but I don't have exact numbers.
- Being prior military is not a requisite to be POTUS but more recent Presidents have no or little military experience.
- Bottom line is that this growing divide is not good for either the civilian population or the military and does not bode well for the future.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2016 4:07 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 16:07:06 -0500

I served from 1968 to 1972. There was outright anger towards the military from some civilians during this time frame. From my perspective, it is much better now.

Response by CAPT James McClure made Jan 21 at 2016 5:07 PM

CAPT James McClure — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:07:43 -0500

Yes, it is. I've seen this building since Vietnam. We are seeing more second-generation military people (the beginnings of a military caste), less regional diversity, lower voting participation and politicization of defense policy. The flip side is that we are seeing a new generation of veterans getting into Congress and that gives me hope.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2016 8:43 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:43:29 -0500

Yes and no. Only if we let it and hold ourselves above everyone that we are supposed to be serving. In many cases I believe that a large portion of those serving believe they are better than those that we are sworn to uphold and protect. This is also true for the civilian community, they believe that we are different and therefore they ostracize us.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 1:14 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 01:14:22 -0500

A divide is to be expected when we have a professional military force. There is less of a divide between civilians and civilian soldiers but there is still a divide. When the prevailing ethic is American society is that of individualism, personal freedom, and monetary gain that is not going to go well with the values of a professional soldier. The values of a professional soldier are duty, loyalty, and subordination to our cause and our superiors. Neither set of values is better but they don't translate between the worlds very well. If you're choosing to be a career soldier then you are agreeing to adopt the values of the profession and they don't mesh to well.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 10:13 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 22:13:27 -0500

Sgt Joe LaBranche, I wrote this after I re-entered society, after being in Vietnam. This is the way I felt.
Dinosaur"
I am a person out of my element,
My mind goes back to the days of lament.
The world and I are not as one,
Nothing I did should ever be done.

I try to exist, and be like them,
But I am not, and never have been.
I can't cope with the thoughts of today,
They aren't right, for nothing is here to stay.

I am a dinosaur in a modern world,
Looking for something I can't unfurl.
I'm ready to go and enter "That Door",
Then maybe my mind will be at ease once more.

©Keith (Hacksaw) Bodine 1970

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 10:16 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 22:16:42 -0500

I do, completely..

I invite you to check out the post I created about a very interesting article explaining how, and why we are turning into a chicken hawk nation.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/are-we-turning-into-a-chickenhawk-nation

Are we turning into a chickenhawk nation? | RallyPoint

The article is pretty long, but really interesting. It points out the disconnection between the U.S population and its military, making the process of going to war “too easy”, yet not effective as previous U.S engagements were mainly paradoxically supported by a rising chickenhawk society, although not operationally and economically fully victorious....

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jan 23 at 2016 12:34 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 00:34:55 -0500

Yes, I do... after 911, we often said... the Army (Marines, AF, Navy) were at war... not the United States. The last time the United States was at war, all in, was WWII. The gap widens daily.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jan 23 at 2016 8:43 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 08:43:45 -0500

It would be interesting to know how many of the RP membership live and work in a predominantly military/government venue. That may explain the disconnect with how my opinion differs from many of you.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jan 23 at 2016 11:10 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 11:10:38 -0500

Of course with the All Volunteer Military and fewer Americans having served, it only makes sense.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 11:13 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 11:13:16 -0500

Maybe. But I think the bigger issue is the widening gap between our military and our scholars. As Thucydides once said “The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.”

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 10:29 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:29:02 -0500

Sgt Joe LaBranche Well, I can understand why. Our administration has focused on gay issues and diverted our attention from HCR being done, when people are sleeping and not paying attention. From where I stand, they have brought down the pride in the Flag, trying to bust Generals, inactive on VA issues except talk. That and so much more.

Response by CDR Kenneth Kaiser made Jan 24 at 2016 2:58 PM

CDR Kenneth Kaiser — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 14:58:18 -0500

As a veteran I know I am different in many ways from my civilian contemporaries and I leave it at that. What would concern me would be that if we as veterans allow ourselves to become professional victims. I am reminded of the example of the frog. "If you drop a frog into a pan of boiling water he will hop out but if you put him in cold water and gradually turn up the heat he will boil to death." (This is a parable type story, not based upon actual personal experimentation in the event any congressional note takers are out there) . As we get told over and over that we are unique and therefore deserve special treatment there might be a tendency to develop that expectation. We deserve what we were promised, our uniqueness is a benefit, but to expect special treatment may tend to take away the most valuable aspect of our uniqueness if let to get out of hand and we cease to be unique. Not sure if that is clear but then it is the way I feel

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 24 at 2016 10:14 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 22:14:09 -0500

Yes they don't want to think about doing what we do for a vocation.

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Feb 9 at 2016 1:18 PM

Maj Marty Hogan — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 13:18:04 -0500

I am going to base my answer on 30 years worth of experience. No. I think the public sees a lot of romantic crap on TGV and in movies. but compared to when I first came in (1984) the attitude is much different. The shift came during Desert Storm- inset Whitney Houston signing the National Anthem at the Superbowl. The attitude shifted from toleration to adulation. My first 7 years were active and active reserve- never once did anyone come up and thank me for my service for the most part. After Desert Storm- the paradigm shifted 180 degrees the other way. This may not directly answer your question, but shifts focus from a perceived divide. We are still an all volunteer force, we are funded, and I don't hear a big public outcry (less the Clintons) to slash the military from the picture. Draw downs and changing missions will always have an outcome on political shaping, but today's world climate shows we need to be focused and ready. I think the public sees that as well. Again forgive me if I am reading to deep into your question.

Response by Cpl Matthew Wall made Feb 17 at 2016 10:23 PM

Cpl Matthew Wall — Wed, 17 Feb 2016 22:23:03 -0500

Since we were labeled as terrorist by the media and our own politicians, yeah I would say there is a widening gap. I've been out for 9 yrs now and civs still ask stupid questions about my deployments.