Do you call attention/at ease for officers/NCOs who are not in uniform?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 06:26:25 -0500

I have looked through AR 600-20 and AR 600-25 however I have not been able to find an answer on this though i may have missed it. My company office is the first floor of our barracks so while doing cq we frequently have company commander's and 1sgs come in and out however not always in uniform, do you still call the appropriate courtesy even if they are in civilian attire? If anyone can point me to the correct regulation that would be much appreciated.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Nov 18 at 2023 7:00 AM

Lt Col Charlie Brown — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 07:00:00 -0500

Any thoughts?

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Nov 18 at 2023 8:30 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:30:07 -0500

Generally a unit will have a published protocol about saluting/attention in an office environment whether in uniform or out. That rank doesn't go on with the uniform. In most Company's while I was still in, and most Battalions too, the office would be called to attention the first time the CO entered the office, and not for the rest of the day unless required by the task at hand, a new guy reporting, as an example.
I would just ask the 1Sgt. this question and find out what the unit commander requires.

I may be a bad example. The 1st Sgt. and I called each other by our first names when we went in public.

Response by COL Randall C. made Nov 18 at 2023 11:44 AM

COL Randall C. — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 11:44:07 -0500

Short answer: Unless there is a local policy that says different, it's appropriate to call the room to attention or "at ease" even when the commander or 1SG is in civilian clothes.

The longer answer is that you're not going to find anything official saying "Yes" or "No" (unless it's a local policy), but you need to harken back to your days of basic training about honors, customs, and courtesies in order to 'connect the dots'.

Honors are salutes and recognition rendered to our and other nations, representations of those nations, individuals of merit or rank, and circumstance (such as honoring a fallen service member). Honors are formalized and follow (mostly) strict protocols such which individuals are due honors and what form those honors take.

A custom is a usual way of acting in a given situation or circumstance. It's a practice that has been established for so long that the customs of our military have become its common law. Violations of customs will bring a response. For some customs that will be the view that to offender is ignorant, careless, or ill-mannered while violation of other customs will bring official censure or disciplinary action. Examples of some are "jumping" the chain of command, avoiding courtesies and honors (run to the building to avoid retreat, turning around to avoid saluting, etc.), etc.

A courtesy is an act or verbal expression of consideration or respect for others and vary in treatment on the formality of those expressions. 'Military courtesy' being different from 'civilian courtesy' in that it was developed in a military atmosphere and has become an integral part of serving in uniform. The essence of military courtesy is mutual respect and self-discipline. We show courtesy to our superiors as recognition for the increased authority and responsibility they have and we show courtesy to our subordinates in recognition for the vital role they perform in the organization.

Now to tie it all together (this wasn't a gratuitous history lesson).

As Army Command Policy (AR 600-20*) states for military courtesy, "Courtesy among members of the Armed Forces is vital to maintaining military discipline. Respect to seniors will be extended at all times". "All times" does not mean "just when they are in uniform".

This is reflected in the custom and courtesy of a salute. As AR 600-25 states, "All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute." A salute is rendered to them regardless if they are in uniform or not (a salute is not required to be rendered or returned by the individual if they are in civilian attire).

This is also reflected in the courtesies when interacting with an officer of superior rank. It doesn't matter if they are in civilian clothes or uniform - the General is still "sir", I still stand at attention when addressing them (maybe a 'relaxed attention' if in an informal setting or I am interacting in a social environment), and I walk to the left of them if we're together.

So too goes for the for the military courtesy of calling a room to attention when a senior officer enters (or "at ease" for the senior NCO). It is done upon recognition of the individual and just like the other courtesies, the clothing the individual is wearing does not matter.

The rendering (or lack of rendering) of a courtesy reflects more on the individual than it does on the recipient as military courtesy is an important indicator of a person’s bearing, discipline, and manners.
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https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN32931-AR_600-20-004-WEB-6.pdf

ARN32931-AR_600-20-004-WEB-6.pdf

Response by SSG Laurie Mullen made Nov 18 at 2023 11:56 AM

SSG Laurie Mullen — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 11:56:54 -0500

I'm going to go with a "yes" on this one. Regardless of how they are dressed they still hold their rank and are authorized the proper customs and courtesies. As others have said, respect the rank and show the proper respect to it unless told otherwise.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2023 12:53 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 12:53:10 -0500

Until the Commandet and 1SG say otherwise, follow proper protocol and call Attention/At Ease, regardless of attire.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2023 2:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 14:03:39 -0500

And hence why the photos of the chain of command are visible for the world to see.

Somewhere is a poor little PVT new to a unit, and got stuck with CQ duty. They have never personally met the 1SG yet who just happens to walk into QC during off hours and the PVT doesn't announce anything.

Then the fun begins.

THE LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! answer in that particular moment will be:
But TOP, I read on RallyPoint that if you are not in uniform.....................................

Let people STOP you from saluting, ringing a bell or addressing formal protocol, not remind you when you forget.

********
Story, but not mine. A Navy colleague of mine was the officer on duty while in port one early morning. Some guy was going down the pier and randomly going on the ships. This guy was in civilians and had a significant detail with him.

I guess the Navy have a thing for ringing a bell a number of times based on one's status that boards a ship.

The guy didn't get a bell run, and turns out he's the Under Secretary of the Navy.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Nov 19 at 2023 4:45 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 16:45:12 -0500

They want damn you for taking no chances, but they will come after you if you fail to give honors.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2023 8:27 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 20:27:51 -0500

Absolutely, at the top of my lungs.

Like the old motto goes with salutes, "When in doubt, whip it out!" They don't like it? Then don't come to work in civilians. It's about respect for the rank and the position, and I won't ever be caught with a lack of respect.

I also loved looking for any excuse that made my PSG jerk and stand up, to later go "Damn LT, you scared me."

Response by COL Dan Ruder made Nov 23 at 2023 12:46 AM

COL Dan Ruder — Thu, 23 Nov 2023 00:46:21 -0500

Yes--always. It's the better judgment call over anything else. I recommend not guessing about when to apply courtesies. In my 30 years, I've never seen a reg or policy on when not to follow military courtesy that we learned in Basic. See FM 7-21.13, Ch. 4, page 4-4).

Note: if a person tells you not to call it the next time they visit when not in uniform then it only applies to them; it's not applied carte blanche to everyone else. Be safe out there.