Do you feel it's fair for an airline to deplane (in any way) a paying passenger when they are oversold?

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:38:49 -0400

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Apr 12 at 2017 10:43 AM

LTC Joseph Gross — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:43:06 -0400

Absolutely! They have policies in place which we all agree to abide by every time we buy a ticket. But they also need to realize there is a right way and a wrong way to accomplish this. BTW, I hold United much less at fault than I do the police officer involved for turning this into a spectacle. But what was he to do after being told there was a trespasser on the airplane? Best course of action would have been to continue raising the bribe to find a volunteer. I'm sure all of United would agree paying me $10000 or even $100000 to give up my seat would be a better solution than the black eye they received.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 12 at 2017 10:48 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:48:44 -0400

If the plane is overbooked, overloaded, someone has to come off or not get on. I think the way they did the latest one was wrong, and I have no love for the airlines, but sometimes you pay a price for refusing to listen?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2017 10:50 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:50:01 -0400

I once got booted from a flight (before I boarded the plane) due to overbooking (even though the Army paid for the flight). On the plus side, they got me a whole new flight and cut me a (somewhat large) check for my inconvenience.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2017 10:56 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:56:49 -0400

The problem is many airlines do this very same thing. They purposely overbook flights because at the end of the day its a business and they lose money on empty seats. Airline companies also take into account that people are people and are late, miss, or just plain don't show up to their booked flights. With regard to the most recent situation; the passenger was right to stay on the plane. He paid and refused to give up his seat. In situation like this the airline needs to provide more incentive. The problem became complex because I'm certain at some point a comment was made or the passenger and the staff got into some form of debate. This is when the staff needs to remember 'the customer is always right' and just find a new way to make it happen.

Because the seat was for an employee, what most likely occurred was that the employee needed to return to their 'home base' in order to receive the full benefit of rest and recuperation before assuming duties on the next scheduled day. However, since the plane was overbooked and every passenger boarded.....they should have just rescheduled the staff member and informed them there was no other way. this happens often to airline employees as it is a part of the business.

United Airlines as a company didn't provide substandard products or service. It was merely the actions of just a few employees. Hopefully, this is a lesson for the company and they find new ways to conduct business in these situations.

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Apr 12 at 2017 10:57 AM

CW4 Guy Butler — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:57:58 -0400

Let's add this into the mix:
http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-united-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html

United passenger threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' traveler

It’s hard to find examples of worse decision making and customer treatment than United having a passenger dragged from an overbooked plane. But United’s shabby treatment of Geoff Fearns comes close.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Apr 12 at 2017 11:01 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:01:39 -0400

Despite much for what will follow, I am sympathetic to the business reasons why airlines overbook & bump, but just because they concoct a rule for their own benefit does not make said rule an inherently sacred thing.

What you saw recently was not just one passenger rebelling against what we've all come to accept as normal (in this specific industry), but it touched a nerve among the flying public that has had to endure increased fees, reduced services, tighter crowding in the cabins, and the threat that if the airline's overbooking policy creates a problem, it is the flying public who has to be inconvenienced more than the airline.

We lament the drop in customer serve regardless of the industry, but for some reason we have grown accustomed to it when we fly. Hell, it's "normal". But as low as our customer service expectations are in general, how many other industries would the public come to expect such treatment? While I never believed the customer is "always" right, when doing business with the public, the customer damn sure better be the primary concern.

Yes there are valid reasons why those who paid their hard-earned money for a ticket get bumped, and they should have some latitude to do that, but such policies (and recompense for the value lost by the public) need to be reexamined and possibly reworked, with greater focus on the customer whose needs are not being met by an airline casually removing them from the flight due to their overbooking. In a case like this, where 4 people were bumped to make room for airline employees, the airline should tighten up it's logistics and operations to reduce the occurrences where customers have to make room for employees.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2017 11:13 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:13:24 -0400

My thought was that when it came time to have to pick a non volunteer, and nobody would go that the pilot should simply have announced - Folks we MUST have one person deplane. If no one will I be the one. Now folks please find a way to help us solve this or the flight will have to proceed without me.

I'll bet the passengers would have found a way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2017 11:14 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:14:55 -0400

It wasn't even overbookd or oversold. They had a crew of four from United that needed to get to another airport to make sure that flight didn't get cancelled. So they asked who would give up their seats. Of course no one wanted to. Why would anyone? I'm not giving up my seat because you didn't plan your employees' travel very well. Then they offer $800. Really? What's that going to help you with? You would have to probably spend the night there to get a new flight. So you have to pay for hotel and food and whatever else and hotels in Chicago probably aren't cheap. There is no limit for what they can compensate someone in this situation. They should have kept pushing up the price. AND they don't do this on the plane. It's supposed to happen at check in or before people board. Not after. This was a horrible PR disaster for United who doesn't usually have the highest customer satisfaction to start with.

But that's ok because Sean Spicer saw this and said 'Oh I got you" and one upped them anyway.

Response by MSgt James Mullis made Apr 12 at 2017 11:27 AM

MSgt James Mullis — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:27:53 -0400

No! Once a passenger has been allowed to board the plane, with a valid ticket and seat assignment, he has a right to the seat. Despite what is being repeated in the press, the flight was not overbooked. The passengers were being kicked off the plane so the Airline could board a flight crew that was needed at the flight's destination point. This is an important detail because there are specific FAA rules that apply to removing a passenger from a flight and they were not followed in this case. FYI: they include substantially more than a $800 flight voucher (the last time I read the rule it was 2.5 times the cost of your original ticket). It's amazing that they failed to offer appropriate recompense for volunteers to give up their seats. When they offered a travel voucher worth up to $800 and did not get a volunteer, they should have offered 1st Class upgrades and/or cash till they had a volunteer. I'm sure the airline will argue in court that they were trying to speed things up, reduce any delay in the flights take off time, and would have informed him of his rights once he de-boarded.

The second mistake was made by the police and security officers involved. Once they decided to use force against the Doctor, they had a responsibility for his personal safety. Dragging him out of the plane by his arms and legs was unprofessional and not in accordance with standard police procedure. Once he resisted, you take him into custody, put him in handcuffs and walk him off the plane. If he refuses to walk you put an officer under each arm and carry him out. If he kicks, you tie his legs and carry him out.

At this point I would guess that the Airline, the Airport, and the Police Department are throwing cash at the passenger in hopes that this whole story will just go away.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 12 at 2017 11:31 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:31:47 -0400

The contract you effectively sign when you purchase a ticket gives the airlines the legal ability to do many things you wouldn't like. Oversold flights happen all the time. They get sorted in the boarding area. In the United case, they messed up by having sold a full flight, loaded, and then decided they needed 4 seats for air crew positioning the next morning at the destination. They got into the situation by not offering enough cash (not vouchers). So would you take $1600 to deplane, get put up overnight, and then fly the next day? I'm sure they'd have 60 people wanting that and hopefully not a brawl as to who cashes in. The airlines do not give the gate agents or air crew the authority to do what's necessary to humanely deal with the oddball instance where the usual nothingburger stuff doesn't work. Everything is on the bell curve. Stuff is run to guarantee events like this, passenger rage, etc. because people are treated like cattle. Then they wonder why they have problems. Things are so competitive and margins so slim that the math says a certain level of overbooking helps the bottom line. So you agree to the rules if you want to fly. If you don't want to, the bus and train are also there. But you agree to a different set of rules when you buy their ticket as well.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Apr 12 at 2017 11:32 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:32:47 -0400

In my experience, the airline offered cash incentives to passengers who voluntarily deplaned an overbooked flight. I took advantage of one on an occasion when my schedule allowed it. Obviously, in the case, United would have saved themselves a lot of trouble and money had they simply chartered a plane to take their crew where needed.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 12 at 2017 11:38 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:38:27 -0400

If they offer financial inducement and the passenger accepts it (thus making a defacto contract), then the passenger should deplane. Otherwise only illegal or dangerous behavior should allow the airline to force a passenger off a flight. As a pilot, I support the idea of getting a passenger with dangerous or aberrant behavior off the flight while it's on the ground. Example: cursing at an airline employee or threatening bodily harm. Nothing good will come of these types of passengers at 35,000 feet over the middle of the Atlantic with 450 other people on board. Safety of crew and passengers must remain the first consideration.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Apr 12 at 2017 11:53 AM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:53:39 -0400

What's funny is it is a four hour drive to Kentucky. United could have drove there crew there. Now instead of paying 800 dollars to give up the seat. It is going to cost them millions. In lost revenue. Gov. Crist Cristie is already requesting a proub into these airline practices.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Apr 12 at 2017 11:54 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:54:57 -0400

No it's not fair and in this specific example, the plane wasn't overbooked. The company just felt it was more important to put their aircrew in seats after the paying customers were already seated.

If the company needed seats open to get a crew into another city, they should have literally been the first people on the plane before anyone started boarding.

It's one thing if the person was being a disruption, threatening, etc. Then fine, remove them from the plane. But asking someone to leave and then ejecting them because they refused crosses the line.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Apr 12 at 2017 12:49 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:49:59 -0400

"That would work in most cases, but in cases where it could have been a military person or DoD official, that wouldn't work as we would have a strict report time to make. "

I recall a colleague of mine (while serving) was not given priority on his flight (this was United). He missed his flight due to a delay on his previous and they couldn't book him on another so he had to wait. They told him "You have no priority here just because you're in uniform" after he explicitly told them he has to report to duty.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 12 at 2017 2:14 PM

Maj John Bell — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:14:25 -0400

I think they should have to keep upping the offer until someone decides that it is just too much money to say "no." There is some amount where someone on that plane would have said yes. I hindsight some exec at United probably thinks it would have been better to offer $10k rather than the PR mess they have now.

While I was on embassy duty, Air Ivoire, (the airline of the Ivory Coast) had a unique solution to overbooking. there was no "different seating" for economy or 1st class, but 1st class passengers got to board first. Then economy was lined up and the stewardess said "go." If you got your butt in a seat you got to go, if not you waited for the next flight. I sat next to a lovely lady who swung two live chickens as clubs as she fought her way down the aisle.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2017 2:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:26:25 -0400

Here is the contract agreement for denied boarding. I don't see anywhere on here where it states that they can be forced to give up a seat once it has been claimed. In my mind, denied boarding means that it happens before passengers are sat, not after. Which means that it should happen at the gate and not on the plane. Here is the reference.
Rule 25 Denied Boarding Compensation
A.Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply: 1.Request for Volunteers a.UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.

2.Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority: a.Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
b.The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.

3. Transportation for Passengers Denied Boarding - When UA is unable to provide previously confirmed space due to an Oversold flight, UA will provide transportation to such Passengers who have been denied boarding whether voluntarily or involuntarily in accordance with the provisions below. a.UA will transport the Passenger on its own flight to the Destination without Stopover on its next flight on which space is available at no additional cost to the Passenger, regardless of class of service.
b.If space is available on another Carrier’s flight regardless of class of service, such flights may be used upon United’s sole discretion and the Passenger’s request at no additional cost to the Passenger only if such flight provides an earlier arrival than the UA flight offered in 3) a) above.

4. Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarily a.For passengers traveling in interstate transportation between points within the United States, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
b.For passengers traveling from the United States to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a U.S. airport at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
c.For passengers traveling from Canada to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a Canadian airport with a maximum of 200 CAD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight with a maximum of 300 CAD. At the passenger’s request, compensation in the form of check, wire transfer, visa card, or a travel voucher will be made by UA, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA.
d.EXCEPTIONS: A Passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if: i.The flight is cancelled;
ii.The Passenger holding a Ticket for confirmed reserved space does not comply fully with the requirements in this Contract of Carriage Requirements regarding ticketing, check-in, reconfirmation procedures, and acceptance for transportation;
iii.The flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate the Passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons or, on an aircraft with a designed passenger capacity of 60 or fewer seats, the flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger due to weight/balance restrictions when required by operational or safety reasons;
iv.The Passenger is offered accommodations or is seated in a section of the aircraft other than that specified on his/her ticket at no extra charge. Provided, if a Passenger is seated in a section for which a lower fare applies, the Passenger will be entitled to a refund applicable to the difference in fares;
v.The Passenger is accommodated on Alternate Transportation at no extra cost, which at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover, (if any), or at the Destination, not later than 60 minutes after the planned arrival time of the flight on which the Passenger held confirmed reserved space;
vi.The Passenger is an employee of UA or of another Carrier or other person traveling without a confirmed reserved space; or
vii.The Passenger does not present him/herself at the loading gate for boarding at least 15 minutes prior to scheduled domestic departures, and 30 minutes prior to scheduled international departures. See Rule 5 D) for additional information regarding boarding cut-off times.

5.Payment Time and Form for Passengers Traveling Between Points within the United States or from the United States to a Foreign Point a.Compensation in the form of check will be made by UA on the day and at the place where the failure to provide confirmed reserved space occurs, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA. However, when UA has arranged, for the Passenger’s convenience, Alternate Transportation that departs before the compensation to the Passenger under this provision can be prepared and given to the Passenger, the compensation shall be sent by mail or other means to the Passenger within 24 hours thereafter.
b.UA may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of a check payment due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise due and UA informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the monetary compensation.

6. Limitation of Liability - If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is accepted by the Passenger, such payment will constitute full compensation for all actual or anticipatory damages incurred or to be incurred by the Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is not accepted, UA’s liability is limited to actual damages proved not to exceed 1350 USD per Ticketed Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. Passenger will be responsible for providing documentation of all actual damages claimed. UA shall not be liable for any punitive, consequential or special damages arising out of or in connection with UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space.

B.Denied Boarding Non-U.S.A./Canada Flight Origin - Where there is an Oversold UA flight that originates outside the U.S.A. or Canada, no compensation will be provided except where required by local or international laws regulating Oversold flights.

Response by CW4 Robert C. made Apr 12 at 2017 3:17 PM

CW4 Robert C. — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:17:22 -0400

If and when that comes to fruition, then they should look at the computer and see who has the earlier date of purchase. And if it is just for a flight team member to catch a flight well then that member will have to wait because the paying customer is always right.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2017 4:13 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:13:47 -0400

It's so hypocritical for these airlines to be so regulated but I guess they drop the ball on regulating how clients (passengers) should be treated, with dignity and respect! Some of these flight attendants (male/females) get so empowered believing they have some type of authority on our right to fly!

Response by SFC Dave Beran made Apr 12 at 2017 7:01 PM

SFC Dave Beran — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 19:01:11 -0400

Yes. They told everyone they were oversold. They offered $800-1000 to have people take another flight. This individual was told he would not have a seat. He had a preprinted boarding pass so he got on anyway. The airline needed to get a crew to Louisville.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Apr 12 at 2017 7:22 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 19:22:45 -0400

Unless the individual presented a safety issue to himself or other passengers

Response by PO2 Peter Klein made Apr 12 at 2017 10:38 PM

PO2 Peter Klein — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:38:45 -0400

And with the recent incident, some United idiot only had to offer a $1000.00 to passengers who would give up their seats and problem solved. A lot less expensive than the bad publicity and the lawsuit that is sure to come.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Apr 13 at 2017 9:20 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:20:00 -0400

There is no reason or excuse to forcibly remove a paying customer.

Response by PO3 David Adams made May 2 at 2017 10:19 AM

PO3 David Adams — Tue, 02 May 2017 10:19:28 -0400

If the Flight is over Booked they Should ask for volunteers before they board the Plane - Not After - Then when have the plane board - 1st come 1st serve if your late too damn bad

Response by Capt Wayne Klug made May 6 at 2017 9:34 PM

Capt Wayne Klug — Sat, 06 May 2017 21:34:18 -0400

I have been with United Airlines for 29 years.
Yes, the over booking policy should be looked at but it's really a mathematical economic issue.

However, when you are instructed to deplane, get off. Take the voucher and next flight. Don't be an ass.