Do you feel that Basic Combat Training and Advanced Individual Training are due a facelift?

2017-02-13T22:23:03-05:00

Speak your mind...aaaannnndddd go!

Response by SFC George Smith made Feb 13 at 2017 10:25 PM

2017-02-13T22:25:53-05:00

they need to be reworked and make sure the troops are really prepared...

Response by SSG Michael Hartsfield made Feb 13 at 2017 10:28 PM

2017-02-13T22:28:44-05:00

It's really easy for us old timers and retirees to weigh in on this. I would like to hear from the current leaders and perhaps some of the young troopers regarding this

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2017 10:55 PM

2017-02-13T22:55:50-05:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member I went through Boot Camp and AIT in 1968 which was a few year back. The training needs to be tough and broad enough to cover most of the possible conflicts that we might be involved in. Our military will be involved in more conflicts that could erupt anywhere in the world.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Feb 13 at 2017 11:04 PM

2017-02-13T23:04:04-05:00

They were Do a Facelift when I was in 1974? But Now I think that Soldiers get away with too much Stuff their is no discipline and They Have No respect for the Parents and none for the NCO's that are training them. I also Know that they don't retain anything that you teach them
it sad that what the military was bad when I was in I remember when you had to I identify
rank by what it was and I remember I missed a silver oak leaf which was a LTC and I took Laps and said that a silver oak leaf is a LTC.
SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA VET

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Feb 13 at 2017 11:05 PM

2017-02-13T23:05:27-05:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member I am long gone!

Do Drills still sign a statement to the effect that they will serve in combat with a "graduated" trainee from their unit? MSgt George Cater Slick?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 13 at 2017 11:05 PM

2017-02-13T23:05:57-05:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member First, Climb to Glory!!! Second, what do you think? I am now 4 years removed from our Army. BCT and AIT were updated dramatically after 9/11 and things that went awry in OEF and OIF. That has been 10-15 years, so yes, training always need to maintain pace with the world us. But, as you likely know, TRADOC is not good at change.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2017 11:17 PM

2017-02-13T23:17:30-05:00

With the type of war we face now, I'd say an additional 4 weeks added to BCT.
- Improve PT
- Additional BRM and standard weapons familiarity. (M16/M4, 249, 240B, M2, M67, M320)
- Continuation of Land Nav
- Continuation of Squad Tactics
- IED Identification and 9 Line UXO
- Continuation of First Aid and 9 Line MedEvac

With the additional weeks we should see improvement in marksmanship, Marksman is accepted but we should see and should strive for more Sharpshooters and Experts.
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Add an additional 4 weeks to AIT.
- Add 2 weeks for continuation of skills learned, SMs won't become experts in their field in AIT but they should be better prepared before reaching their unit.
- Add 2 additional weeks to AIT to reinforce some BCT lessons such as BRM, LandNav, Squad Tactics, and continuation of improved PT.
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Finally, after BCT Soldiers are just that. Stop treating them like kids in AIT. Yes they're still new and still need to be eased into it but by treating them like kids instead of Adults and Soldiers it doesn't help them or their unit. Let them make mistakes and punish them for it if need be, but also treat them like they earned the title a but too.

Especially those poor bastards that went Airborne immediately after BCT before going to AIT like Riggers for example. They get out of BCT, get to Big Army and are treated like Soldiers and then go to AIT where they are treated like kids. It's one hell of a fuck fuck game for those guys.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2017 11:39 PM

2017-02-13T23:39:33-05:00

I began OSUT JAN2012. I don't know how far outside the norm our training was, but my experience was 16 weeks of limited food and sleep. A long night was 7 hrs, but we went days, even weeks at a time on 4-5. That certainly limits a recruits ability to learn tasks, but it certainly teaches the recruit to drive on! Our drill sergeants told us they wouldn't graduate someone that they wouldn't have in their squad or platoon. I don't know if it's true, but two drill sergeants in our company claimed to keep running bets on who could drop the most recruits per cycle. My basic training and AIT were much more an experience than a chance to learn much of anything. If that's what we need, then it certainly did it's job. Our drill sergeants told us over and over again, that their job wasn't to make trained combat engineers. It was to make trainable combat engineers. "My job it to make it so your first team leader has something to work with." If that's what the Army needs, and for that MOS, I believe it is; I think the training was pretty effective.

The biggest issue, I believe with the training was ineffective PT. Our drill sergeants told us the post had a policy that we couldn't PT when the temps fell below a certain temp (I don't know what it was), but we didn't do much for PT during most of Basic Training, other than get smoked inside the barracks. Our drill sergeants plainly told us that if we didn't do PT on our own time during personal time, many of us wouldn't pass the APFT. I and at least half my platoon took the advice.

Since getting to my unit, and then becoming an NCO myself, I've seen way too many troops get to the unit out of shape. There is no way that drill sergeants aren't pencil whipping APFTs down at Ft. Leonard Wood. The only solution I can come up with is to have recruits be administered an APFT immediately on reception, and those that can't meet certain minimums be put in a PT program before they can even begin training in a basic training company.

Response by SPC Jordan Brown made Feb 14 at 2017 12:05 AM

2017-02-14T00:05:15-05:00

Sir, I just graduated from BCT sand felt like it was honestly too watered down. I mean it was still difficult, but there were some things that I thought would be more intensive.
As for AIT (where I am now) it seems to be broken in a lot of ways. There is a severe lack of discipline from soldiers in AIT, at least in the company in training in.

Response by SSG Lucas Solie made Feb 14 at 2017 1:18 AM

2017-02-14T01:18:32-05:00

I am retired, I went from putting them in boots as a recruiter for three years to a platoon sergeant in a ICTC. I was floored as to what the new Soldiers coming from BCT/AIT. There is no longer DS in AIT. They have SSG's or SGT's training them. The Army has moved to a kinder more gentle organization. We live in a different society and the Army also has to shift to fit that.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 14 at 2017 5:22 AM

2017-02-14T05:22:51-05:00

It was said well many years ago...

http://www.hackworth.com/article04032002c.html

article04032002c.html

Nothing is more basic than Basic Combat Training. Basic to the ways of war. Basic to national security. Basic to the very survival of the United States. So how come Fort Jackson, the single largest producer of Basic grunts, male and female, is under the command of a general who piled up more friendly fire casualties than anyone else in Desert Storm?

Response by SPC Jordan Brown made Feb 14 at 2017 7:18 AM

2017-02-14T07:18:15-05:00

I mean, I even saw a certain soldier who was on profile 80% of the time he was there who missed a lot of required training (I think at least half) who still graduated, and other soldiers who were missing a few requirements didn't graduate. He was somehow able to kind of skate his way through with a profile and missing training and still graduated and I honestly don't know how sir. I know he was always complaining about being mistreated to the First Sergeant. Our First Sergeant was a really good guy, and he truly cared about the well being of his soldiers, but he seemed too flexible on a lot of things.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 14 at 2017 8:50 AM

2017-02-14T08:50:17-05:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member Chief, not to talk down on you for your post...But this question comes up often, and its never a bad question and about the same result each time.
Yes, BCT and AIT could be better, longer, more involved, cut some, add more. Yes it is "behind" what we need in the field..unfortunately there is no rapid prototyping system for Good ideas and needs of the combatant commander to TRADOC approved POI and trained DS system yet It takes time, LOTS of time to take a good idea or need and get it to the BCT level...
And then there is the very real group of civilians that run the military.....what they want counts, like it or not...and so what a CDR on the ground in Afghanistan wishes his PFC team member already was trained on/for/with conflicts whit the priorities of our leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 9:13 AM

2017-02-14T09:13:39-05:00

Well I worked BCT back in the 90's at Knox and was a range Cadre at Jackson in 05, all I can say the standard between the 2 was light years apart as far as discipline goes. I have also spent some time at Lee in 2013 and it seemed AIT was more like a college campus than what I went thru at Leonardwood. Cell phone in the chow line, civilian clothes on the weekends etc. (Some of those clothes on the weekend where very inappropriate to say the least.)

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 9:43 AM

2017-02-14T09:43:44-05:00

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member , yes I feel a facelift is due. Seems like the Army is training the new Soldiers to be more sensitive to others.....which is nice and all....but it appears that the teaching of the BASICS is being cut short to make room for the MRT, the SHARP, the EO......and all the other Mandatory training that needs to be done (the mandatory ppt training that is). I've witnessed.....and experienced.....many a young Soldier not stand at Parade Rest for NCOs, not saluting Officers, and other all around basic military bearing. I do what I can to correct these issues when I see them, but I can't catch it all......unless someone decided to make this my full time military job. So, with that, not only should Basic and AIT be revamped.....but NCOES and OES need a little touch-up as well.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 12:25 PM

2017-02-14T12:25:48-05:00

I went to BCT in March of 2007 at Fort Benning. From the first day we arrived at our actual training platoons (not 30th AG) we were constantly watched, assessed, trained, and punished. My platoon started with 78 guys, and graduated 67, including 2 recycles. That first day, the Senior DS told us "I'm going to break you all off, and whoever survives will graduate." From the stats I just typed, he made good on his word. Being the second oldest recruit in my platoon (at 36 then turned 37 in Week 5) I had a little more maturity and perspective than the younger kids, but it was tough and draining both physically and emotionally. But after it all, I came to respect and admire that NCO; I had lunch with him right before I redeployed from Iraq.

When I arrived at AIT, there were still Drill Sergeants. It turns out my class was the second to last class to have them. They told us that they could pick out the Fort Benning Soldiers, as we had a different bearing, and a different level of discipline than Soldiers who came from BCT programs at other posts. Even at school, the most ominous threat was to call the DS down to the schoolhouse. I saw that happen once. It wasn't a happy thing for the offender. As we got to know our DS' in AIT, they lamented the change that would take DS' out of AIT. They all predicted that it would be a disaster, and that the quality of Soldier leaving AIT would be dramatically lower. They were right. Just now, the Army is rethinking taking DS' out of AIT. They are still needed, and should have never been taken out.

I have seen Soldiers arrive from AIT broken, on profile, and/or unable to pass a APFT. There really is no reason for that. BCT and AIT are not that tough where you come away from them broken and unable to function at your first unit. Marksmanship is another thing. I went to the range at AIT, but apparently marksmanship has fallen by the wayside at AIT for some reason. Relatedly, many new Soldiers have never fired a M-2, M-240, or M-249. I fired all of those weapons at Fort Benning. That is another skill that has been lost in TRADOC.

The overall level of respect of new Soldiers is lower as well. Just the other day I corrected two Soldiers who were outside smoking with no headgear on. I asked them if it was the right thing to do. They first said that they didn't think they needed headgear since they were close to the hangar. Then they changed their story to they didn't know they needed to wear headgear outdoors. I had to walk away before I did or said something regrettable. Now I am not as "Old School" as many of you, but I grew up in and around the Army. My dad is a retired Armored Cav LTC, so I know what "Old School" looked, felt, and sounded like. These new Soldiers have little to no Military Bearing, and want to question everything they are told. I am glad to explain things to them, but there has to be some Military Bearing on their part as well. Apparently TRADOC isn't teaching it.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Feb 14 at 2017 12:30 PM

2017-02-14T12:30:04-05:00

I don't know. Is there something about it that is currently outdated that could be removed and replaced? When I went through BCT, we did the close combat training, we trained on the weapon systems currently in use. We did the field ops, the night ops. We interrogated detainees. We stopped and frisked potential insurgents while also engaging in cultural sensitivity. Everything that I can remember doing is something that we would possibly use in the field.

I am all for updating the training to ensure that we are always ready for the fight at hand. If there is one thing I do wish is if BCT was longer, but that's probably because I'm a POG and I had a hell of a good time during BCT.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Feb 14 at 2017 1:09 PM

2017-02-14T13:09:53-05:00

Can't actually relate as I went Infantry OSUT and then few years later reclassed for my new MOS, so my frame of reference does not include a separate basic and advanced individual training, it was a rolling buildup in training and comprehensive throughout, not "here's how to be a soldier and now here's how to do your job". For me it was one in the same.

It might sound like a good way to do things on the surface, but unfortunately for the bulk of the Army (all branches really), it would most likely be overwhelming, expensive and functionally impracticable to do that for each and every MOS. Some of the other MOSs with larger numbers of recruits might be a good place to expand on the OSUT concept, but not all.

Now...if the heart of the question is more about what recruits need to know to be a soldier/sailor/marine/airman, that they do not know now, then I'd say yes. Basic is the single best place to learn their branch's history, heritage, customer, courtesies and place in the grand scheme of the American military. If the concern is they have not become a master at their specific job, well, that's not the point of basic and AIT. It's foundational and recruits build on that foundation once they get to their unit after initial training. Beyond this, I have no opinion.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Feb 14 at 2017 7:42 PM

2017-02-14T19:42:57-05:00

I am just going to read the responses and try to learn what the current Service members have to say on this one,mainly because I was in so long ago none of my observations would be relevant,so far they have been very informative ,great post CW2 Ryan Sweesy.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Feb 15 at 2017 12:50 AM

2017-02-15T00:50:46-05:00

As a former BCT CDR, yes there are a lot of aspects of BCT/AIT that could be changed. When I first took over my initial cycle for their AIT, I heard how bad trainees were during BCT. I found out two week after I graduated my first class and stood up the next cycle. Never heard or seen so many trainees declare "Refuse to Train" as more than 20 of them were removed during the first week. They also refused to train if they didn't get their way or didn't like what they were doing. Only a few went back to training as the rest were chaptered out as soon as we could send them home. Discipline, respect and commitment seem to be the most that my DS had to work on with their platoons. Too many of the trainees had to learn those three words quickly.

My Commander's in brief had to remind them why they enlisted and what the expectations were of them and the honor to wear the uniform proudly. I warned them that I wouldn't graduate those with questionable character and lack of the Army Values. Told them the Army doesn't need Soldiers who cannot and would not be an asset to their next unit. Foremost, I did graduate enough to hopefully fill the ranks with quality and future leaders. Only regret is I didn't get to graduate my fifth cycle as I had to PCS to my next assignment. Wanted to be there to see them graduate. Basically the incoming CDR did the same as I did when I first started out and took over the AIT weeks and graduated the cycle I started. There are more things that need to be addressed which would take days to type up. For now that is all.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2017 7:28 AM

2017-02-16T07:28:15-05:00

Absolutely. We've gotten soft. The focus of BCT and AIT needs to be about tough realistic training. It should be stressful, challenging, and weed out those who can't hack it. Instead we seem to be focused on anything else but that. I had new Infantrymen come to my Company less than 2 weeks out of Infantry OSUT who couldn't pass an APFT. Their discipline in many cases was also lacking. They were the rule, rather than the exception and that is simply unacceptable.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2017 10:55 AM

2017-02-16T10:55:45-05:00

I'm not sure how they are now, but if its any worse than when I went through it 4 years ago.. that can't be good. From my experience BCT was a cake walk, and we had many of privates that would actually back talk to the DS with no real punishment. They were all there with us on graduation day. On top of that I don't think I learned anything at all in my AIT (42A). There were many of times that we would go to the classroom and not even have an instructor for half the day. At other times the instructor wouldn't have the resources for each student to access programs on the computer, so for things as important as updating ERBs by regulation were taught in like 5 mins by looking over your neighbor's shoulder. Then after some time at my first unit, we get a group of 3 privates straight from AIT. Me being the only SPC at the time is put in charge to train them. On top of their lack of knowledge (which I expected) 2 of them fail their first APFT. Along with this one would complain non-stop for having to work past 1600, and would show little to no effort in trying to learn their daily task. BCT and AIT could definitely use a revision.