Do you feel that military bearing is sorely lacking among the younger crowd?

PO1 John Miller — Tue, 05 May 2015 03:47:32 -0400

Though I have been retired for almost 3 years, I noticed this for a few years before I retired and it seems to be getting worse on the military pages and sites I follow.

Example: You get a Sailor (Soldier, Airman, Marine, etc.) fresh from Boot Camp/Basic Training and A School (MOS training). Upon being assigned to you they feel it is appropriate to call you by just your last name. When you assign them a task such as cleaning, they feel the need to ask why they're being told to do it.

"Explaining" how the chain of command and respect works falls on deaf ears, or you end up hurting their feelings and they feel the need to file an Equal Opportunity complaint or go crying to the next person in the chain of command that you were "mean to them."

At first I thought maybe I just wasn't the strongest leader (I wasn't), but I noticed it happening a lot and not just to me.

I'm looking for opinions, thoughts, rants, how you nip the problem in the bud, etc.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 3:58 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 03:58:12 -0400

I doubt it, it's still there. What I noticed is that there are a handful of junior service members who ruin it for every junior out there. Overall I think we're still doing good. But maybe it's just me being a hands-off type who lets you 'do the job' without micromanaging.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made May 5 at 2015 4:02 AM

GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad — Tue, 05 May 2015 04:02:37 -0400

Admittedly, I have been out for a little while now. However, on those occasions that I been on one of the local military bases, I have come away with the sense that things have changed considerably in this area. There seems to be a lot more "familiarity" between junior and senior enlisted and between officers and enlisted. I've often wondered how this has affected military customs, courtesies, and discipline.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 4:09 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 04:09:11 -0400

I think so more and more. It is called the teacup generation. Everyone gets a gold star

http://business.time.com/2012/09/28/note-to-gen-y-workers-performance-on-the-job-actually-matters/

Note to Gen Y Workers: Performance on the Job Actually Matters | TIME.com

We've all heard about how millennials have been raised by “helicopter parents," who hover over them and protect them from criticism and disappointment. The result is a “teacup” generation of young people who may appear outwardly perfect, but are easily shattered.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 5:51 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 05:51:36 -0400

If a kid coming out of basic training/AIT called me by only my last name, there would be nothing left of him to bury.

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 5 at 2015 5:54 AM

SFC Stephen King — Tue, 05 May 2015 05:54:35 -0400

This where you rely on all NCO'S regardless of branch to provide them with the proper motivation not to be in said mindset.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 6:57 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 06:57:35 -0400

Asking "Why am I picked" for a job is older than most posting. I heard that in the early 60s.

The other things mentioned are frankly not a problem with the newbies, but the old timers.

The standard is not what is tradition or regulation. The standard is what is practiced and enforced. If you permit it you have allowed a new standard to be set.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 5 at 2015 7:16 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Tue, 05 May 2015 07:16:09 -0400

If there are lower standards, more familiarity, less discipline, respect for authority etc. it is not the boot's fault. It is the fault of the leadership structure for allowing it.

I know it is harder today than it used to be to go after a poor performer or someone not getting the job done, to apply some appopriate alignment etc. Hazing, in almost any form, is frowned upon and, if reported can get an NCO in hot water. NCO's taking matters into their own hands could end you up in trouble these days.

Keep in mind though, the boots didn't make the policies that allow them to be the way they are. Senior military leadership set policy, regulation, expectation etc.

Response by SSG Kenneth Lanning made May 5 at 2015 7:26 AM

SSG Kenneth Lanning — Tue, 05 May 2015 07:26:33 -0400

I'm pretty laid back and easily approachable, but there is a fine line between "easily approached" and "Speed-Bump E-6"...come on up to talk, join me in the smoker's area, but do NOT lose your damn bearing.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 11:19 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 11:19:58 -0400

Funny timing... My SGM just tasked me to give a class on this very subject.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 11:35 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 11:35:38 -0400

In the SOF community, NCOs commonly address each other by First name or just last name. And if you're a lower enlisted and you've proven yourself you may be allowed to do the same. The only people we don't address that way are 1SGs and CSMs, unless they specifically tell you too, which happens. When I went TDY, one of many, I was addressed by a young PFC, as, "Hey man can I ask you something about your beret?" After I summarily ate his soul, I explained the beret. I can turn it on and off, right now I'm in Group, so do as the Romans. When I leave it's back to the other way.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made May 5 at 2015 12:02 PM

SSgt Michael Cox — Tue, 05 May 2015 12:02:28 -0400

I seperated in 2009 but before I did my flight would send all the problem children to me to babysit. I do see this as a major problem in today's Air Force a big problem. When i came in if you had to go see the MSgt it meant that your ass was in trouble now days they talk to MSgt's like they are best friends and try to call everyone by first names. They also want you to polity ask them to do their job instead of telling them and they whine about everything like spoiled little brats.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 3:51 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 15:51:19 -0400

Respect and military bearing, as well as whining. Personal theory: it's not all younger ones, it's 90's babies (and not all of them)

Response by PO3 Patricia Lyons made May 6 at 2015 1:16 AM

PO3 Patricia Lyons — Wed, 06 May 2015 01:16:09 -0400

By the time they have completed their basic training at the very least, no one should have to "explain" squat to them, especially if what they are ordered has no conflict with any other orders they have been given, the USMJ or Constitutional law...PERIOD. Are we really so concerned about feelings? Folks are out getting their heads blown off in other countries...so maybe we can KINDLY remind them that they didn't join Disney Land and to get back to work. :-)
No one has earned the right to refer to you simply by your last name if you are not fellow comrades and you do not have that type of repore built up already. It should not simply be assumed and you never do it in front of a senior officer who is in real authority. What exactly is going on with our military folks today? Is this for real? You don't have to like the person or the orders...its the rank and the authority that has been given to them. It isn't personal folks. Grow up and rub some dirt on it!

Response by MCPO Douglas Pennington made May 7 at 2015 3:07 PM

MCPO Douglas Pennington — Thu, 07 May 2015 15:07:50 -0400

Society has adopted this new sense of profound laziness and it has leached over into the Military. With the onslaught of "Political Correctness" it has become much harder to push these folks back down the straight and narrow as they should be. I'm sorry but i am from the old school and one must be firm with all subordinates and bring back good order and discipline. It is the responsibility of the Senior Enlisted to make that point upon arrival at the newby's first command and stand strong with your belief's. The military is not a Corporation and that kind of environment is detrimental to Good Order and Discipline.

Response by SrA Diego Alvarez made May 7 at 2015 3:16 PM

SrA Diego Alvarez — Thu, 07 May 2015 15:16:35 -0400

Absolutely.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made May 8 at 2015 12:59 AM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Fri, 08 May 2015 00:59:15 -0400

they do that? and its tolerated? there must be a lot of unexplained deaths of privates.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 1:58 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 01:58:16 -0400

Just from my casual observations; I think military members have more bearing than they did back it the 70s. Nearly every time I see a soldier (Sailor, Marine, Coastie, Airman) they seem proud and motivated. Certainly not the case in the 70s in the aftermath of Vietnam. I think it gradually got better. While the spurt of patriotism from 9/11 has subsided among the general population, it seems to have remained among military members and veterans. Not a scientific survey; just my casual observations.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made May 8 at 2015 9:06 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Fri, 08 May 2015 21:06:04 -0400

I see it almost every day and it includes the middle to upper enlisted ranks as well. If our CPO's and LPO's are not setting a proper example then who are the junior enlisted to follow? Not to sound ignorant but in the military it is a lot of the old "monkey see, monkey do". If you see a E7 with their uniform pants sagging on a regular basis then why should an E3 think its not okay to follow suit?
Leadership never stops when your active duty. I was no saint and I made plenty of mistakes but I would like to think that I was on my best behavior more often than not and also that I was setting a good example for others to follow.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made May 27 at 2015 4:03 PM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Wed, 27 May 2015 16:03:45 -0400

The 18th Century British Army had great military bearing, as did the Nazi soldiers. They still lost. Obviously, there are more important things in war and preparing for war. Innovation is a biggie.

Response by MSgt Mike Brown; MBTI-CP; MA, Ph.D. made Jun 12 at 2015 5:51 PM

MSgt Mike Brown; MBTI-CP; MA, Ph.D. — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 17:51:51 -0400

Appalled at what I see at the Camp Pendleton Commissary -- females wearing what appears to be laced shorts, kids in swim suits, etc.
The manager of the facility, or senior military person should be form, explain the policy (as if they didn't know...) and do what may seem most uncomfortable to do: ask them to leave and come back when they are appropriately dressed.
"...end up hurting their feelings and they feel the need to file an Equal Opportunity complaint or go crying to the next person in the chain of command that you were "mean to them."" -- who cares? Is this not leadership???

Response by SSgt Helen Scott made Jun 12 at 2015 11:53 PM

SSgt Helen Scott — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 23:53:18 -0400

Wow, I really find that amazing, and I do remember lots of that starting to happen before I go out. It is, I believe beginning in basic (bootcamp, whatever) that they can get away w/the same stuff, when that's where that training is supposed to begin! Shoot, I remember being scared to death the first few weeks I was there! lol. No time to call home, so tired at the end of the day all we cared about was the shower and bed. What's it like now? Don't know if it's true, but I've heard if you're getting chewed out ( you know the drlll) they can hold a paper up to make it stop. What whimps! Suck it up and learn and grow. All the civilian stuff needs to go to get the military stuff put in. If you want civilian then you shouldn't have joined. We are supposed to be ready to serve and protect, not cry about what we don't want to do.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2015 1:00 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 01:00:22 -0400

It's just you. I've neither seen nor experienced this, not as an NCO years ago or as a commissioned type for the past 3. I don't know what you experienced, but I've never seen it. Maybe you set the example?

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 13 at 2015 1:19 AM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 01:19:41 -0400

YES...but then Respect is lacking in the young....The current young generation is too deeply immersed in the pop culture.
Heroes should be the ones that ARE Soldiers, not those that play them on a movie screen. Carrying a football does not make one a Hero. As tough as it can be to think this way, IF the NBS, NFL and all other PROFESSIONAL sports went away, Society would not be affected at all....

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 13 at 2015 9:03 AM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 09:03:26 -0400

The "asking why" is as old as the American Army. Baron Von Steuben remarked on this while at Valley Forge and said that once explained the job was well done.

With that being said, this generation of young soldiers has been raised differently than I was...I was born in 47 and grew up in the fairly traditional 50s and 60s with all that entailed patriotism, family involvement, small town schools etc. Today a lot of those values are gone.

This generation was taught to question. It was part of their education, it's not disrespect to them, it's the way that they learn. I will add, although, I'd rather not, that many parents have been too busy making ends meet to pay much attention to their kids and the respect factor in families has declined in many cases.

The services are a reflection of the society that they serve. I will say that for the past 14 years, these kids have fought like lions.

Be patient, you weren't born an officer or senior NCO with time and effort these young troops will turn out fine.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 13 at 2015 10:53 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 10:53:25 -0400

I have a theory that the "entitled generation" was changed my electronic media and games. When I grew up playing meant going to the pool, playing football, or riding the bike, something that took physical and mental effort. Now a lot of young people are eschewing what my generation considered to be an active youth to live in the sedentary domain of electronic media and games. That is their world, and that is what they command. They think they should command their own destiny without understanding what a boss is.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Jun 13 at 2015 11:03 AM

LTC Kevin B. — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 11:03:11 -0400

I never had a problem with the name thing. That was probably because of my rank, so my experience is probably not representative of what you've experienced. I definitely didn't do that when I was enlisted though.

As far as asking "why", I think that is human nature. People want to know how tasks fit into the bigger picture. The more mundane the task, the more of a need to ask. I was that way as an enlisted soldier, and that helped shape how I was as an officer. People don't buy in to what you're doing simply because I tell them to do so. They buy in because they have a clear picture of how lower-level requirements are linked to higher-level goals. I normally popped that bubble early by proactively making sure that all of my subordinate leaders were aware of the bigger picture, and that they articulated more than the assigned tasks everyone must accomplish. I never had an issue with it.

With that being said, I've been retired for almost 4 years now, so the mindsets may have changed.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2015 1:00 PM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 13:00:11 -0400

I just graduated Tech School and still refer to my superiors as Sargent or if they're senior nco's I refer to them as master Sargent "last name" for example

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Jun 13 at 2015 7:39 PM

SSgt Charles Edwards — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 19:39:40 -0400

The time frame you mention is almost in line with my separation and agree that military bearing is lacking. It was a common discussion among us junior NCOs who were getting our asses handed to us by higher ups because of poor decision-making by our troops. I only required that my guys were professional, did their job and follow the chain of command. I never really had an issue with a lack of military bearing, but if I got a whiff of it, I let them know under no uncertain terms they would follow instructions to the letter.

However, I know that some of the problems surrounding this issue stem from leadership. Where does that leadership begin? With the front line supervisors. A poor training ethic develops into a poor work ethic. Customs and courtesies go out the window and before you know it, you have a pissed off SNCO or officer wanting to know what that person's major malfunction is.

If I had it my way, things would return to the old school way of doing things. Smoke sessions, in-your-face counseling (hell, even wall-to-wall counseling) and an overall direct approach would be welcomed back. But that's my opinion. No such luck in the "kinder, gentler" armed forces.

Response by SPC Thomas Baldwin made Jun 13 at 2015 9:57 PM

SPC Thomas Baldwin — Sat, 13 Jun 2015 21:57:43 -0400

It's this generation of "It's all about me" and the schools teaching to a test and not teaching, everything is handed to them. I teach Paramedics and they all get mad when the question or answer is not the same wording from the text (What the learn in School). Reading comprehension is out the window with this generation overall. The entitlement this generation has is out of control. When they sit on interview boards its not what they can do for the department but what is the department going to do for me. I have watch police interviews where the candidate who has never worked in a department, got up and left the interview when he was told he would not get a tack home car until after probation. The is where they start and that's why they take every chance not to do as they should. I found it important to be very strict and demanding, but not nasty or aggressive when you first interact with them. then when they realize there is a standard expected they follow it. Then after awhile you can ease off and they will still fall in line. If they get out of line it's now easy to get them to tow the line. I don't get a lot of resentment from this approach overall except in the beginning because they are used to getting there way in the past by challenging the authority figure. I ride them hard but i'm always there to guide them and assist them meeting their occupational goals and my expectations.

Response by PO2 Brad Colonna made Jun 15 at 2015 5:12 PM

PO2 Brad Colonna — Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:12:07 -0400

I know I'm generalizing but here goes.

My grandfather passed last year who was a retired LT Commander in the Navy. He was given a military burial with a 21 gun salute at Miramar National Cemetery. There was a detail assigned to give the ceremonious flag to his wife (who is not my grandmother) and the young sailor performing the duty was lacking what I'll call military bearing. This sailor's uniform was not as sharp as it should and could be, the salutes were lackadaisical and this person's right-, left- and about-faces were lacking the crisp movements I was used to seeing and executing. There wasn't necessarily anything wrong with this person's movements but I was expecting something a little tighter from the detail.

I know this doesn't represent all who come out of boot camp but this is my most recent experience with it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2015 12:23 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:23:48 -0400

You lower the standards to increase the size of the military and you wonder why years later you have weaker and toxic leaders? Were they the ones who would not have made it in under the stricter qualifications pre-war? It all comes down to leadership and screening who joins. I have been upset many times to see people just out of basic or AIT not being able to pass an APFT or height/weight. What did they do at basic/AIT and how did they graduate?

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2015 12:53 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:53:43 -0400

Its this new generation, the "entitlement generation"

Response by SPC George Rudenko made Jun 29 at 2015 10:08 PM

SPC George Rudenko — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 22:08:52 -0400

Absolutely!

Response by SCPO Penny Douphinett made Aug 27 at 2015 1:53 PM

SCPO Penny Douphinett — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 13:53:20 -0400

My youngest is a MM(N)3, home on leave before reporting to his first carrier. He joined the Navy after being raised by 2 khaki parents. He called our friends by their rank/rate and last name: i.e. "Senior Smith" or "LT M" or Mr/Mrs., so respect is not new to him. He is probably not one of the kids you are referring to :). However, I do know what you are referring to.

It is a Navy custom for E4 - E6 to refer to each other by last name and E1-E3 to refer to them as Petty Officer or by their rating, i.e. MM1, BM3. Young people joining the military are raised by parents who don't stress respect, but they are certainly taught it in the training pipeline. When they get to that first command they might only be echoing what they hear and not be intending disrespect but need to be taught. I don't think we need to rip them a new one the first time as I don't believe in leadership by fear but one explanation is all they get. They are adults. As for going up the chain of command, let them, your Chief would back you up and put the fear of God into them as only a Chief can and that would be the last of it.

I have seen the biggest problems come from junior females who know how to use their femininity, but that is a topic in another thread!

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Aug 30 at 2015 6:26 AM

PFC Tuan Trang — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 06:26:37 -0400

Mostly at my unit, Nobody do that, even the one that finish basic, they still parade rest/stand at attention and use ranks to address.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2015 9:26 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 09:26:11 -0400

I would never allow someone rank than me call me by just my first name or last name. But there are situations where I think it could be ok. For example off post locations such as the club, restaurants, shopping mall when overseas. It's highly recommended to do everything you can to blend in with the locals. It doesn't help if you have a soldier yelling your rank, letting everyone knows you are US military connected. That's just my opinion and I have told all the soldiers in NY company it's to call by my nickname if they run in to me in public places like that. Safety should always outweigh custom and courtesies. And so far, I have not had any issues with soldiers calling by my first or last name, except in these rare circumstances. What do guys think?

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 8:22 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 20:22:16 -0400

It's the generation of entitlement. If you let them know you are there to help in any way you can it tends to help. Remember they are new and still learning how to be a sailor. As a leader we have to show them how to be sailors. If you are doing nothing wrong who cares if they complain or files an EO complaint.

Response by PO1 Cliff Heath made Oct 22 at 2015 6:02 PM

PO1 Cliff Heath — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:02:27 -0400

THAT GOES WITH WHAT I WAS SAYING ABOUT FEMALES THAT WERE ALL MALE ENVIROMENTS BEFORE. NOW YOU CAN'T JUST SAY " WHY BECAUSE I F-ING SAID SO THAT'S WHY AND FROM NOW ON YOU WILL ADDRESS ME BY PETTY OFFICER HEATH. MY LAST SHIP WAS A SPRU CAN USS ELLIOT DD-967 THE BOATS CHIEF WAS SALTY AS HELL NOW THIS WAS IN 87-88 ALL MALE CREW HIS BEST WORKERS WERE THE PARTY WE ARE US NAVY SAILORS AND WILL ACT AS SUCH HE WPOULD BACK HIS BOYS TO THE HILT BUT HE WOULD ALSO TELL THEM IF THAT SHIT HAPPENS AGAIN ME AND YOU ARE GOING INTO A FAN ROOM AND HAVE IT LOCKED BEHIND US AND THERE WILL BE NO RANK AND I AM GOMMA KNOCK THE SHIT OUT OF HIS GUYS LOVED HIM AND SO DID US GM'S HE HAD 3 PBR'S SHOT FROM UNDER HIM IN NAM EVERYBODY REPECTED HIS ASS. THERE A FEW STORIES ABOUT HIM AND THE NEW DECK BOSS WHO WE ALL CALLED THE DUKE YEP THAT'S RIGHT HE PISSED OFF THE CHIEF SO BAD HA SAID F IT AND PUT IN HIS PAPERS AFTER 27 YRS. HE SAID THAT DUMB SOB IS GONNA GET SOMEBODY KILLED AND I CAN'T BE A PART OF THAT. ONE TIME THE DUKE COMES UP TO BOATS AND TELLS HIM "CHIEF YOU ARE GONNA HAVE TO LOSE WEIGHT OR IT IS GONNA REFLECT IN YOUR EVALS" I WAS STANDING OOD WHEN THE CHIEFEIF WAS TELLING ME THIS SO I ASK HIM WELL WHAT DID YOU DOS BOATS AND HE SAYS I LOOKED IN THE EYE AND SAID "SIR GO F@!K A DUCK" AND HE TURNED AROUND AND WALKED OFF WITHOUT SAYING A WORD. LOL

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2015 5:04 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:04:09 -0400

When I was an NCO I had same issues with my Soldiers, I would give the a task and get asked, "Why cant pvt so and so do it" would irritate me so bad I would make both go do it.
Now, Im a Platoon Leader and learned the importance of the "Why" in any mission or task that I give my SL's. The Who, What, When, Where and most importantly Why gives them all the purpose direction and motivation they need to lead their Squads and answer their follow up questions.
Without a doubt the younger Soldiers are challenging to lead but they have a lot to offer as well.
Sun Tzu said, "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But, if orders are clear and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their oficers" -Sun Tzu-

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 26 at 2015 4:04 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 16:04:47 -0400

I'm reasonably certain these complaints have been uttered since the first neanderthal Army...

Response by AN Craig Shults made Feb 3 at 2017 11:09 AM

AN Craig Shults — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 11:09:54 -0500

I had many shit assignments handed to me both in basic training and at my duty station. I was stationed in the USS Constelation out of Coronado and trust me, repainting the island or working on the cranes, was on crash crew, not fun at times. Was told and told those under my supervision to quote "suck it up butter cup" everyone has their time in the dirt.

Response by PO3 John Hart made Feb 4 at 2017 6:59 PM

PO3 John Hart — Sat, 04 Feb 2017 18:59:39 -0500

Yes.....it's a much different military from when I was serving