Do you have to chapter a soldier out of the Army after failing to meet academic requirements in BLC (land nav)?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:13:18 -0400

Response by SMSgt Tony Barnes made Apr 6 at 2016 8:16 AM

SMSgt Tony Barnes — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:16:10 -0400

Shouldn't ever be automatic in my Air Firce opinion.

Response by SMSgt Tony Barnes made Apr 6 at 2016 8:16 AM

SMSgt Tony Barnes — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:16:18 -0400

Force

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 8:19 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:19:06 -0400

Id say no. It's his or her leaders responsibility on training them, ensuring they're good to go. All the time sitting around would have been a great time for land nav hip pocket training. A soldiers failure is his leaders failure.

Response by SFC Paul Garza made Apr 6 at 2016 8:30 AM

SFC Paul Garza — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:30:47 -0400

I do not totally agree that a Soldier's failure is his/her leadership's failure. Yes a unit should MAKE the time to prepare their Soldiers prior to attending a school, any school, especially an NCOES. Good leadership WILL ensure that their Soldiers have been trained and retrained but the Soldier also has to bare the cross of responsibility to be successful as well. If a Soldier fails because the unit did nothing to prepare them, then it is a leadership problem but if the unit did do something and the Soldier was unsuccessful that doesn't necessarily rest at the foot of the leadership. Leaders are supposed to Train, Mentor and Coach; provide purpose, motivation and direction but "HUNGRY" Soldiers seek out leadership.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 8:33 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:33:28 -0400

Is this Soldier a SPC, SPC (P), or SGT? There are implications at each level as outlined in AR 600-8-19 for promotion and reductions. If the Soldier is an NCO, reflection on their NCOER or their Marginal 1059 can be damning enough. For a (P) they would reflect a J code and be removed from promotion. For a SPC they can't get promoted. You could also initiate a bar to reenlistment that would initiate separation after 180 days.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 6 at 2016 8:35 AM

SFC Randy Purham — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:35:43 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member, that is a negative pursuant to AR 350-1, Soldiers that fail any NCOES Course can return in 6-months, a second failure 1 yr. Of course that time is dependent on the school itself (Commandant policy). Subsequent failure of the same course should result in a bar to reenlistment.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 6 at 2016 8:41 AM

SFC Randy Purham — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:41:19 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member, you can find it in AR 350-1 Ch 3-13 Para. e. both paragraphs. They also will be flagged. in addition to my previous statement.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 10:18 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 10:18:10 -0400

1SG, I have yet to see that. I was an HR NCO for a long time. I am also a civilian administrator now. Unless they're coming up on a retention control point- time in service/grade issue then that's a different story, I can't see kicking someone out for failing BLC. After multiple attempts you could look into inefficiency and possibly a bar to re-enlistment. But hey, he's not the first person to fail a course. I was a BOLC recycle, and do not consider myself an inadequate officer. In fact I share the lessons learned openly. we can't have a zero defect army, we don't have zero defect people. Here is a great chance for him to be accoutable and grow but its also a chance for his leadership to coach and learn from as well.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 10:40 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 10:40:18 -0400

I did read a few months ago the Army is changing the requirements for NCOES failures. It said if a Soldier fails a NCOES school not the unit but the school will start the chapter paperwork. That being said I'm not sure if or when it would take affect!

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Apr 6 at 2016 11:12 AM

SFC Craig Dalen — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:12:35 -0400

I would use the 21st Century Soldier Competencies and see where the SM is lacking and make that determination. If the SM is a well rounded Soldier and is worth retaining then no. Just retrain and ensure success in the future.

Response by SSG Leo Bell made Apr 6 at 2016 11:23 AM

SSG Leo Bell — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:23:53 -0400

No I never did and that would be kind of hard to do, because you think about the soldier well being and there family if the have one. I always took my soldiers out and give them one on one training, I even had to help my with on land nav when she went thru.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 11:36 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:36:21 -0400

As a prior instructor for BLC, the answer is no. But because of an ALRAC message that soldier cannot reenlist. In order to reenlist this soldier it requires a waiver from HRC which is every difficult to get.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 12:26 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 12:26:29 -0400

...but I have a GPS on my phone! I don't need land nav! LOL

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 6 at 2016 12:45 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 12:45:37 -0400

STANDARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 1:33 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 13:33:05 -0400

Per AR 350-1, (AUG 14) Chapter 3 (page 56) "(4) NCOES disenrollment policy is as follows: (a) Soldiers disenrolled from WLC for academic deficiency may apply to reenter the course when both the unit commander and the school commandant determine that the student is prepared to complete the course".
The regulation does talk about Flagging action, Bar from reenlistment, and separation but only for Disciplinary reasons.
Your higher echelon may have a policy in place in reference to NCOES failures and disciplinary actions.

Response by CSM Felipe Mendez made Apr 6 at 2016 4:54 PM

CSM Felipe Mendez — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 16:54:58 -0400

When I was a First Sergeant in Germany, I set up a land navigation course and had all my SPC go through couple time prior attending the Junior Enlisted Course (PLC, BLC etc). I tasked each platoon to provide me with one NCO each to assist during the Land Navigation course/training. They will conduct class room training and them go through the actual Land Navigation course. I assigned a senior NCO as the NCOIC for the training. At the end of the training I collected the after action report and get a debriefing from the Land Navigation course NCOIC to see where my soldiers stand as far of Land Navigation course knowledge. In addition, I check with the school house to see what are the common areas in which soldier usually failed. Once I got all the information, I incorporated such needed training into my company Land Navigation course. I open this training to all my sister companies as well. If they attended, they will provide one NCO to assist. Depending on the size of the group going through the training, I had a NCO accompanying each group. I learned that another area in which soldier were dismissed from the school was missing or damage TA-50 equipment. I check to see what items were the most common to failed the TA-50 Inspection. I had the Section Sergeant and Platoon Sergeant inventory their equipment and signed a document stating that all equipment was 100% accountable and serviceable. I appointed one NCO per soldier to attend the school in processing. I made sure that they had extra equipment to replace those pieces that failed the inspection or at times if they didn’t have one to replace, I will send my driver with a replacement equipment. During this time in their career, these soldiers face tremendous stress and sometimes someone needs to jump in and help them. Some of these soldiers have families and are concern on leaving them alone for the course period or are short on money etc. NCOs should be there to make this transition as smooth as possible. Once the soldier graduated from school. I would have him conduct drill and ceremony with the SPC getting ready to attend the course. I would have him/her explaining/telling them what they will face and what the school expect from them once in the course. I remember when I was a SPC and I was attending BNOC in Fort Riley, my SGL took the time to help us in the areas that we were weak. He would come in on his own time/weekend to helps out. He influenced me and others to do everything that needs to be done to make sure our soldiers are always ready and make sure that they know they have our/NCOs support.

Response by CSM Felipe Mendez made Apr 6 at 2016 5:06 PM

CSM Felipe Mendez — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 17:06:54 -0400

Getting rid of a soldier is to some the easy way out. To other is a challenge. As leader, we must evaluate each soldier’s potential individually and not compare them with each other. What is easy for one soldier, can be challenging to another soldier. Evaluate them, we as NCOs know which soldier is ready and which one is not. Conduct company training and self-evaluate all the SPCs that need training and provide such training/guidance’s to make better leaders. Yea they are adults, but at time we/NCOs put these soldiers in situations that they can succeed. If needed to get them out of Special details, exempts them from CQ duties a month or two prior attending school. Provide them with a mentor to assist on anything that he/she made need help with. Chain of command should be supportive of all those soldiers scheduled to attend such courses and use the check and balance to make sure they and their support channels are doing all the necessary steps to make this transition as smooth as possible. Let them know that you are always available to clear up any misunderstanding/problems.

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Apr 6 at 2016 6:37 PM

SFC A.M. Drake — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 18:37:13 -0400

1SG,

Key point would be is this your solider? If so what are you going to do about it? I would say no, JAG would kick it back without strong justification and previous counselings to back up a chapter for a first time offense if that is the case, of course more info is needed

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 7:52 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 19:52:46 -0400

Thanks for all the feedback folks. Really good discussion. Here is the whole situation and her is my take...

A Soldier receive a NO GO twice on Land Nav at BLC. Now, once that Soldiers comes back to your unit, you have counseled that Soldier for not meeting BLC requirements. Now, you are told by your BN Command Team that you must submit a packet for separation for that Soldier, an leave that Soldier at the BDE Commanders mercy. I have read the enlisted separations reg chap 13 and it doesnt tell you that you MUST initiate a chapter for not meeting an academic requirement in an NCOES right of the back.

It clearly states that the Soldier must receive a chance to rehabilitate after counseling in order to be considered for separation. To me, getting re-tested at land nav and failing for a second time, doesn't constitute constitute as the Soldier getting an opportunity to get rehabilitated. To me, allowing the Soldier to rehabilitate is the following.

1) Counsel the Soldier about the incident.
2) Retrain the Soldier on the standard or requirement that was not met.
3) Not sure how soon a Soldier can return to BLC for a second time after failing, but I will go out of the limb and say 90 days.
4)Send the Soldier to school for a second time after you as a 1SG feel comfortable with the Soldier being good at the failed subject.
5) If the Soldier drop out of school again wether it was for the same reason as the first time or a different one, then at that particular point, initiate the packet for separation.

Why???

Because the Soldier was allowed a chance to rehabilitate by given a second chance, the Soldier failed to meet that requirement in two separate occasions. In this case, then I believe that you, as a 1SG has the green light to initiate the separation packet and submit to higher in grounds of " Failure to Progress" Chapter 13.

What is your take on this. Im tracking initiating a chapter to soldiers immediately for reasons like failing apft while in school, ht and weight, and disciplinary actions but how many soldiers in fort hood don't fail land nav on an average? Ft bragg as well...

I just hate when some leaders want you to do something because he or she say but they don't support their arguments with black and white.

The reg says the following. Which to me, leave a lot of room for interpretation and I can see why some people may tell you to initiate a chapter right away

Commanders will separate a soldier for unsatisfactory duty performance when it is determined that the soldier will not develop sufficiently to participate satisfactorily in further training and/or become a satisfactory soldier; or the seriousness of the circumstances is such that the soldier's retention would have an adverse impact on military discipline, good order, and morale; and it is likely that the soldier will be a disruptive influence in present or future duty assignments. Pursuant to para 13-2e, AR 635-200, initiation of separation proceedings is required for soldiers without medical limitations who have two consecutive failures of the Army Physical Fitness Test or who are eliminated for cause from Noncommissioned Officer Education System (NCOES) courses, unless the responsible commander chooses to impose a bar to reenlistment.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 7:57 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 19:57:08 -0400

And trust me... Im a very fair an impartial Leader and all about making sure that my joes and janes are ready to go to school. This is what I have in place in my unit to ensure just that

I had the Soldiers NCOs drilling the soldier on land nav. I also initiated a juniors leaders course (JLC) specifically for PFCs and SPCs. I adopted this from my last CSM. This is a 2 week classroom environment that teaches them Soldiers the basics of BLC so when our guys go to school, they are better prepare than the average Joe. We use the exact same course material that they used at BLC here where Iam at. The two instructors are 2 former WLC instructors. Both very knowledgeable NCOs. We provided all the tools available to that Soldier to be sucessfull. I just think she was nervous in school because she sure was G2G with us.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 8:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 20:36:53 -0400

I would say no you do not

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Apr 6 at 2016 9:17 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 21:17:52 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member Before; in the Guard, an officer RTUd to his unit for not meeting admittance standards would discover that the Chief of Staff wanted a private conversation w/him! The C of S had a trap door in the floor of his office. That RTUd officer would vanish!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 11:34 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 23:34:44 -0400

No. A chapter out is for many violations like drug possession, dui's, arrests and misconduct. Not meeting academics could lead to RTR or a Flag of promotion.

Response by SGT Patrcia Palmer made Apr 7 at 2016 4:15 PM

SGT Patrcia Palmer — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 16:15:08 -0400

I would have to say no. Its is the squad leader responsibility to make sure the soldier was train to standard. If they recommend the soldier for the promotion board then they should make sure that the soldier is ready for BLC that is part of that squad leader responsible. I think that both the squad leader and the soldier should be counsel on their individual responsibility. If the squad leader is not doing is part to get that solider prepare for NCOES then the soldier should have seek out help some another NCO he do not have to say that is squad lead is not helping but instead he could just asked for additional help.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 5:07 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 17:07:43 -0400

i say no, i ask did the unit train him/her

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 6:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:37:09 -0400

I agree with SGT Jermey Armstrong, that being said this will adversely affect his career in the future. If does not get him now it could get him when he is a SSG or looking to get promoted for SFC.

Response by SFC William Adamek made Apr 8 at 2016 12:44 PM

SFC William Adamek — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 12:44:55 -0400

I look at it this way. If you are going to separate an individual for failing a single military school one time then you should separate all individuals that fail any military school. I failed Rappel Master for "not having enough command in my voice". Should the BN Command Team recommend my separation for that? Treat all soldiers equally, fairly and with the idea that none of us are infallible but all of us have already proved that we are trainable.

Response by MSG Jay Jackson made Apr 8 at 2016 9:34 PM

MSG Jay Jackson — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 21:34:31 -0400

I say no to the chapter paper work and recommend that you read CSM Mendez post about finding out from the school house what the problem areas are and to prepare your soldiers prior to school attendance. Also having a short course for the SPC and PFC's is what should be done. Both are great examples of leaders preparing soldiers. My only concern is why squad leaders and platoon sergeants are not doing this training?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2016 10:40 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 22:40:30 -0400

I agree with all the previous posts I have read that it is the responsibility of the leader to train their Soldiers to successfully complete BLC. However, I don't think that is the question that 1SG Luis is asking. He is asking if he has to chapter this Soldier for academically failing BLC. After a little research here is what I found. A number of years back AR 350-1 stated anyone who failed an NCOES course were to be barred from reenlistment or chaptered from the Army. However, this is no longer the case. According to AR 350-1 dated 19 Aug 2014, it now reads that academic failures from BLC are to be retrained and resent to BLC once the commandant and the unit commander feel the Soldier is ready to return. I hope this clears things up.

Response by SGT Felicia King made Apr 9 at 2016 5:49 AM

SGT Felicia King — Sat, 09 Apr 2016 05:49:41 -0400

If said soldier was doing land nav at Bragg pldc area and failed 2x, there's no teaching him/her because there's road clearings that you side rail. Unless you took a nap under a tree and no one woke you up. If at Bragg, practice at site on Long street. Whatever post, give SM grid points, compass and a map after some instruction and they'll figure it out. I always found my points and I have poor sense of direction.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 9:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Apr 2016 09:24:54 -0400

No, unit needs to ensure that NCOs are ready for that course. Units should incorporate that training for that training purpose. To chapter a soldier out wouldn't be the brightest idea.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 4:06 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Apr 2016 16:06:04 -0400

How do you fail land nav? Especially having proven yourself worthy to go to BLC?

Response by 1SG Steve Marchman made Apr 12 at 2016 6:12 PM

1SG Steve Marchman — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 18:12:08 -0400

BLC is an academic military requirement for not service: service may still on board until they reach their RCP: but what do I know I retired on 2004 things change. Conclusion, instructors have varying skill sets and communication skills why fault a troop for failing a course, I was a commo guy in the infantry and failed PLDC in 1988. I went backed to the unit my First Sergeant called some grunts to his office, they made me an expert in map reading and land NAV very quicky. When I returned I smoked that course. Same thing happens all over the Army, you must have compassionate and understanding. I'm just gonna tell you if I was putting my life in harms way the way today's Soldiers do and a MOFO tripped with me over some academic BS there'd be a fight. And if TRADOC or any upper echelon entity is pushing chapter as a remedy for failing a course: shame on them. They always dog lower enlisted: WTF...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2016 5:24 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 05:24:32 -0400

No. There is a couple of things you should do, ask your JAG should be the first one. This is actually a board question. Who is responsible to train Soldiers? It is the CDR's responsibility. As a NCO, I would ensure my guys are straight before attending a school, especially BLC. As the top NCO in the unit, I would make sure the PLT SGT, squad leader and section SGT are training set SM on all Soldier tasking before attending any schools. There is no CDR that will request a waiver for them to go back after failing land nav. I am pretty sure they gave them two tries, before they got kicked out. Officers normally get one strike for schools, enlisted get more chances. Being that they were trying to be officer, I am sure they fall under the one strike rule. We are all for taking credit on our NCOERs for what our Soldiers do when is good. Why don't we think about putting on that NCO's NCOER they failed to ensure their Soldier was properly trained prior to attending BLC; resulting in the Soldier failing land nav and terminating BLC. Chances are, this bullet is not going to get on the NCOER because that NCO will take all measures to ensure all NCOs above him (PLT SGT and 1SG) get the same bullet along with the person responsible to ensure all Soldiers are trained (the CDR). I know I would. This Soldier's leadership failed him/her, yet, they are trying to figure out how to punish them. Punish the leadership, they failed the Soldier is the second thing you should do. Put it on their evals.

Response by SSG Sean Thoman made Apr 21 at 2016 6:42 PM

SSG Sean Thoman — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 18:42:54 -0400

Back in my day.....considering most 2LT's got lost looking for the 1SG's office in a 3 room building, not including latrine and closet, no. It is first line leadership failure to insure the soldier was properly trained. It is an NCO's job to make sure all of his soldiers are properly trained and proficient on all basic tasks. Land nav whether you are a GRUNT or a PAC Clerk is or was a basic task taught at the BCT level along with D&C, C&C, BRM, 1st Aid, and NBC. If you are a Leader at any level and cannot navigate and/or train your Soldiers properly how to navigate, read a map, use a compass; you are soup sammich as we used to call it. That is just my opinion as an armchair GI Joe these days, I am somebody who has been away from the military for 13 years, but Leadership should never change and NCO Responsibilities to properly train their Soldiers should never change--ACCOUNTABILITY.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 8:39 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 May 2016 20:39:06 -0400

Per AR 635-200 paragraph 13-2e, initiation of separation proceedings is required for Soldiers who are eliminated for cause from Noncommissioned Officer Education System courses unless the responsible commander chooses to impose a bar to re-enlistment. That being said, you can initiate separation with a recommendation to retain the Soldier.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2018 4:43 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 16:43:14 -0500

The common problem with land navigation for blc is plotting in the wrong latitude grid by mistake or getting completely thrown off track by the obstacles now if you give him a map and ask the soldier to plot a grid on a map and he does it right then I'll still have faith in him/her and let them try BLC again

Response by SGT Franklin Smith made Mar 19 at 2018 3:19 PM

SGT Franklin Smith — Mon, 19 Mar 2018 15:19:13 -0400

1SG Luis Carmona I thought they took out Land Nav, did they add it back in. Also need to look at the Soldiers leaders have they failed him.

Response by 1SG Walter London made Aug 19 at 2019 2:00 PM

1SG Walter London — Mon, 19 Aug 2019 14:00:02 -0400

I would like to take this a step further and say academic failure in ALC(BNCOC) A 4yr tis promotable E5 that's looking to get bared from reenlistment What should his course of action be?

Response by SFC Ernest Thurston made Aug 25 at 2019 10:01 AM

SFC Ernest Thurston — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:01:56 -0400

I would say no. I've seen people flunk out of all kinds of schools and stay in. Most leadership schools will send the troop back with a letter sent to their CSM. It's the soldier's leaders that failed. They need to retrain him and send him back. The unit is responsible for training the soldier up before sending them to school. I've seen people fail parts of Basic Training, BLC PLDC, ANCOC, Drill Sgt, Air Assault, and Airborne schools. most are sent back to their units and rescheduled for a new class. In some cases, they are retrained at the school and just reinserted at the point of failure. Failure at a service school is a leadership failure. If this is your troop then you need to take a good look in the mirror SGT!

Response by SFC Ernest Thurston made Aug 25 at 2019 7:31 PM

SFC Ernest Thurston — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 19:31:56 -0400

One of the reasons the Army originally started what is now called NCOES was because units were not training to Army standards. The various schools were a solution to problems in unit training. Is leadership is lacking because they say OK he got trained in Basic and AIT? We don't have to train him. What happens when your unit has to do actual missions and your troops can't read a map? Do you say it's OK he'll catch up at NCOES. No, you train him! Leadership, training, and mentorship is a unit responsibility you can't dump it on the "system" or a stupid soldier.