Do you have to stand at Parade Rest for a Senior NCO when not in uniform?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 23:50:46 -0500

Is there a AR that covers when a soldier is not in uniform if they must go to parade rest or attention?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 1:26 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 01:26:12 -0500

PFC Brown

it is not an AR that covers this; it is an FM. FM 7-21.13 is called the Soldier guide. My advice get it, read it and you will always be golden. It reads as follows.

OTHER COURTESIES 4-16.
Military courtesy shows respect and reflects self-discipline. Consistent and proper military courtesy is an indicator of unit discipline, as well. Soldiers demonstrate courtesy in the way we address officers or NCOs of superior rank. Some other simple but visible signs of respect and self- discipline are as follows:

When speaking to or being addressed a noncommissioned officer of superior rank, stand at parade rest until ordered otherwise.

When I walk up to a soldier he should go to parade rest. Not because I’m better than he is, but because he respects who he is and who I am based on what we both do. It’s professionalism. SMA Jack L. Tilley

It does not state anything about the uniform you wear. Why? Because you are a Soldier 24/7 if an NCO comes up in uniform or in civilians and identifies themselves as out ranking you stand at parade rest. To easy.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 20 at 2014 2:41 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 02:41:28 -0500

What's that fancy latin phrase for "Do whatever your career can handle?"

Response by SPC Jack Hunt, JR made Nov 20 at 2014 10:21 AM

SPC Jack Hunt, JR — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:21:56 -0500

Shoot yes you stand at parade rest. There's no clock to punch at the end of the day your a member of the armed forces no matter what your wearing 24 hours a day. This sounds like a Generation Y thing to me, Or is it WHY? As in why do I have to do that? Or why is his sucker red and I got the stupid blue one.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 5:59 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 17:59:27 -0500

Why would you disrespect your NCO anyways? Do you even know how much they go through to make sure that you only go through a small percentage of the suck that you have to go through? SSG Schmidt hit the nail on the head with the his reference to the soldier guide, and the rest of the people too by pointing out that you're a soldier 24/7. Just do it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 7:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:29:05 -0500

I ran into my regimental commander at a restaurant. We were both with our families; in civilian clothes and the place was packed. I acknowledged him and we had a pleasant short conversation before we were each taken to different tables. I did not stand at attention or parade rest. I wasn't being disrespectful - the setting was inappropriate for the traditional customs and courtesies. Back at the regiment and in uniform - a totally different ball game. Setting, atmosphere, circumstances. They all come into play.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 4:40 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 16:40:29 -0500

I agree with the other sentiments posted already. What is becoming a pet peeve for me is the trend to use the phrase "senior NCO" when discussing courtesies. I see/ hear this a lot. I don't think that a SGT or SSG should not be given parade rest courtesy any less then a SFC, MSG or SGM.

PFC Jacob Brown, would you have asked this question if you were approached during a civilian attire event by en E-5?

Having said that, I do have an addiitonal comment about respect while in civilian attire. I think that one has to weigh circumstances. I have been to plenty of summer unit outings/ family days where the relaxed atmosphere lessens the demand to observe customs and courtesies..but I sure as hell still assume proper posture when talking to my commander who is not "Kenneth" but "sir" and my CSM, who is not "Brenda" but "sergeant major". I do this because I respect the rank and the position as well as the person in that position.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Nov 22 at 2014 10:12 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 22:12:08 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Here is my question. By your rank I' am guessing you just joined when you went through boot camp did they not give you a book? When i went to boot camp we received the Blue Jackets Manual it cover a wide range of things like customs and traditions. Our RDC (Recruit Division Commanders) Also covered how we address those senior to us once we leave boot camp. My other question is are you trying to find a way to "buck" the system. I have been there when i was a junior troop and if that is the case you are looking to make a long time at that command. I can tell you the reason i only made it to E-5 with 10 years in was because my evals suffered from finding ways to "buck" the system. So show the proper respect the situation dictates you don't have to respect the person in the uniform but you damn sure have to respect the rank. And if your just genuinely seeking guidance because you don't know there is some good advice from Army NCO's here

Response by SFC Mark Hoover made Nov 25 at 2014 7:31 AM

SFC Mark Hoover — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 07:31:05 -0500

Customs and Courteys, on/off duty, in uniform and out

Response by SSG Jose Tavarez made Nov 29 at 2014 9:07 AM

SSG Jose Tavarez — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 09:07:14 -0500

You are not for the uniform you are doing it because of Honor, Respect and Loyalty.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 2:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 14:51:07 -0500

New generation type question here. Always looking to see who they don't have to show respect for.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 3:06 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 15:06:48 -0500

Should you stand at parade rest for an NCO when not in uniform? Yes, I think you should.

Do you HAVE to, by regulation? My answer is "No", even though it goes against what all of the more knowledgeable members have already stated.

In regard to officers, AR 600-25 1-5i(1) states that salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when either the senior or subordinate is in civilian attire. Should we assume that NCOs are to be afforded more respect than the officers who command them? I don't believe so. If a salute is not required for the officer, then standing at parade rest isn't required for the NCO.

That said, I believe that courtesies should still be shown out of personal respect even though it isn't required by regulation.

Response by SPC David Wyckoff made Nov 29 at 2014 3:56 PM

SPC David Wyckoff — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 15:56:36 -0500

I never had any experiences that lend credence to my opinion on this subject but I think I would go to parade rest, even if somewhat of a muted form. If we were both in civvies, or they were in uniform and I was in civvies, I would simply stand with my hands behind my back and feet shoulder width apart.
In any case, I would give the senior NCO the choice to tell me that I can forego the 'parade rest' in informal situations. Kind of like what happened to SGT Rojas.
Reminds me of the ol line that my first team leader taught me that applied to salutes. I thought it was appropriate in this case as well.

If in doubt, whip it out.

Response by SSG Peter Muse made Nov 29 at 2014 4:23 PM

SSG Peter Muse — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 16:23:11 -0500

Wow, lots of very interesting commentary. I always addressed superiors with the proper titles in and out of uniform and still do so today even as a GS civilian who has done OERs for 03s. Respect is the key and I admire PFC Brown for giving it enough thought to ask the question and the responses show that there is no written answer, only levels of professionalism and courtesy. My answer would be - it depends if the NCO is in uniform and the lower enlisted member is not. It might be an official moment where the member is reporting. If it's down in the "ville" as we used to say, my answer would be no for security reasons among other things but also because it wouldn't be appropriate. As for the more senior NCOs compared to the mid and junior grade, I believe respect is respect but there was a bit more connection between the E5 and the troops based on the intimacy of the relationships and the importance of a more close knit camaraderie at that level. Just one person's take on it. I didn't feel like there were any really wrong answers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 8:02 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 20:02:34 -0500

If you deem him or her worthy and know them to be as such then yes.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 8:16 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 20:16:04 -0500

I guess it really depends on the situation. I have never had anyone senior to me say anything about standing at parade rest while out of uniform. Doesn't mean you shouldn't, just my experience. I will always remember this one time in college: the marching band was borrowing the colors from the ROTC program for a performance. Myself and another member of the band (both of us in civilian clothing) went to meet the POC which happened to be a CPT. I knocked on the office door and the CPT invited us in. The CPT walked up to me and shock my hand as we introduced ourselves to each other. The other guy snaps to attention and just stood there as me and the CPT chit chatted. The CPT finally noticed the other guy standing at attention and asked, "What's wrong with this guy?" I shrugged my shoulders and just said he was a newbie.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 10:43 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:43:58 -0500

If you are a professional, you should go to parade rest or attention as applicable if you know the individual is a higher rank than you. It is a sign of respect for the office that you and the other hold.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 12:51 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 12:51:03 -0500

The thing to remember, it is a respect and tradition oriented culture. Parade rest is situation dependent meaning that it depends. No senior NCO is going to expect you to drop everything you are doing to stand at parade rest if you are playing sports, spending time with your family, etc. On the other hand, if you are about to head off on liberty or pass in civilian attire, a senior NCO like a First Sergeant who's main job is to make sure you are treated with respect, trained well, and that there exists good order and discipline, so if he ask you in their office for some reason...then it is parade rest.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 1:10 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 13:10:36 -0500

I don't have to stand at parade rest for a senior NCO regardless.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 12:32 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 00:32:56 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member 24/7 Soldier. Here is my personal take: If I am getting corrected or correcting someone, I could care less who is or is not wearing a uniform. Do the right thing, ALL of the time. Its simple.

Your post is pretty short and leaves much to the imagination. I'm reading this as a way to "buck" the system. Don't buck the system like this. If your going to buck the system, do it through outstanding leadership and work ethic and raise the standard in your organization. Don't settle for "meets standard"...exceed it every day. Do your absolute best at every task you are given, it will make a difference.

Bucking the system in a way that can irritate someone, might not play out so favorably for you. Pick and choose your battles.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Feb 5 at 2015 2:28 AM

SSG Leonard Johnson — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 02:28:28 -0500

Look Man.....Like this brotha....when I stand at parade rest to a superior whether in uniform or not....I do it out of honor to our past, I do it cuz I earned the RIGHT....to salute, or stand at parade rest. I know that sounds kind ol fashion....I'm a ol skool NCO..(I can spell it that way cuz I'm ol skool).....

I know I'm jesting a bit......I take pride of the past. Of what we as a country and a NCO Corp has accomplished. I do not mind standing at parade rest...even as old as I am.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 9:07 AM

MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 09:07:29 -0500

Eh, situation dependent. Off post, with family, or fully engaged...acknowledge and be on your way.

Yes, yes. I get the FM and I understand we're Soldiers 24/7. We are also human beings with common sense. Be courteous and respectful, yes. But, be smart.

If you're at the mall or movie theater, the last thing I want to do is stay attention to myself. Ultimately, it's your call. Each unit or area has their own TTP. Just roll with it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 9:59 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 09:59:43 -0500

I had a 2LT stand at parade rest for a CSM when the LT was in civilians once. Shocked the hell out of me when I saw that

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Feb 5 at 2015 3:50 PM

SPC James Mcneil — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:50:05 -0500

I did. I do now, even as a civilian.

Response by SGT William Howell made Mar 18 at 2015 11:50 AM

SGT William Howell — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:50:18 -0400

You bet your rank you do!

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 18 at 2015 12:00 PM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:00:22 -0400

Yes. We are on duty 24/7, no matter what we are wearing. It is not about what you have to do, it is about what you should do. You should want to do the right thing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 5:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:47:42 -0400

Well I would say it depends on the time and place. If you are at a bar overseas it may not be a good idea and well if you are getting yelled at in the B's well you probably should. Common sense is good for this one.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Mar 30 at 2015 9:33 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:33:09 -0400

I think it's always smart to error on the side of caution. If you know the person you are talking to is a SRNCO in or out of uniform, give them the respect of standing at parade rest. Even to this day, as a Veteran, I find myself standing at parade rest for people I know were/are SRNCO.

Response by SPC David S. made Mar 30 at 2015 9:39 AM

SPC David S. — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:39:23 -0400

Great question. Yes, especially if you know them and are they are in your chain of command. Being a PFC you should assume that you are out ranked in most cases. In due time you will get your respect. Best of luck to you in your military career.

Response by SGT Kenneth Wheeler made May 25 at 2015 7:42 AM

SGT Kenneth Wheeler — Mon, 25 May 2015 07:42:35 -0400

There is. Yes you do when is a dressing you or Any in ur group

Response by SPC Tiffany Ivanov made Jun 27 at 2015 12:25 AM

SPC Tiffany Ivanov — Sat, 27 Jun 2015 00:25:22 -0400

There's an FM that gives guidance, but as a soldier, you are always a soldier. In uniform, out if uniform, 24/7...a soldier. Chances are, he or she will tell you to relax, but stand at parade rest until they do. It shows respect and military bearing.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 27 at 2015 1:02 AM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sat, 27 Jun 2015 01:02:48 -0400

As a matter of courtesy, yes.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Sep 8 at 2015 12:32 AM

SGT Michael Glenn — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 00:32:14 -0400

I will have to say that since your a soldier 24/7 you should always act accordingly.I ran into soldiers who thought that just because they were in civvies and it was after COB they no longer needed to conduct themselves a s soldiers, always wound up with me having to go in front of the CO or Top with them and listen to BS stories of drunkenness and other stupid excuses as to why they were picked up by the MP's, or a complaint was voiced by a fellow officer or NCO .

Response by SSG Ricardo Marcial made Sep 8 at 2015 7:52 PM

SSG Ricardo Marcial — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 19:52:28 -0400

I'm retired 2 years now, first day on the job at my civilian job, the CEO walks into my office to say hello and invite me to lunch with him. I tell you I stood from my chair and snapped to parade rest like my Senior DI in boot camp had walked into the room. I caught myself at parade rest and had to put my hands in my pockets to keep from doing it again.

I even did it in Agfhanistan as that asshat (rank hidden to protect the stupid one) began to scream at me in front of the entire BDE Intel cell. Both case totally different, but in each case I showed respect and in return my peers in Afghanistan applauded me for restraint and at work my coworker acknowledge what I did. It's about respect, both up the chain and to your subordinates, it's too simple.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 9:12 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 21:12:51 -0400

I don't stand at parade rest I just greet them and shake his or her hand and recognize them by their rank.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2015 9:49 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 21:49:51 -0400

Yes. You are a soldier 24/7.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2015 12:31 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Nov 2015 00:31:25 -0500

It's a common sense question, if you run across any officer, commissioned or non, you render the appropriate courtesy. Do the same thing you would in uniform. If you pass someone you know at the mall render a greeting. "Hi sir/sergeant", and carry on. Chances are he's thinking the same thing you are, "why is he here?" or "Crap, please don't ask me about work." If you get nailed down assume the position until told otherwise and tough it out.
Maybe you're self-conscious because it's new to you but after a while it becomes habit. I've been out eleven years and last month, while hanging out at the local recruiters office the company commander visited, and when the office came to attention i was halfway there before I remembered I wasn't in the army.
TLDR: when in doubt, whip it out. You can't go wrong doing the right thing.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2016 12:07 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:07:46 -0500

I've never been a stickler for protocol. If you are in the PX, off duty and in civies, and some SGM, MSG, whatever decides they want to talk to you, I don't think you should be obligated to go to parade rest. Just be polite and respectful. Unless I am delivering an ass-chewing, I always wave off protocol and tell the person to relax.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2018 7:50 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Feb 2018 07:50:13 -0500

So FM 7-21.13 The Soldier's Guide used to spell it out clearly in para 4-16. Now that it's TC 7-21.13 and not FM, it no longer says you have to stand at parade rest for an NCO or attention for an Officer. My question is, is it in writing anywhere else? If not, why did they remove that section?

edit: after further research I've found it in Tradoc Pam 600-4 23 June 2017, so at least I know they are still teaching it at BCT. I'm just surprised it's not in writing anywhere else being such a big tradition/ courtesy

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2018 4:50 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 Mar 2018 16:50:39 -0400

Customs and courtesies is shown to the uniform not the person. Military members come and go, but the Army keeps rolling along. In other words, salutes, position of attention and such is because of the uniform. Even though we are Soldiers 24/7 we do have off time. So no, there will be no DNC while in civilians unless performing duties or functions in a military capacity.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2018 8:43 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 May 2018 20:43:59 -0400

Regulations pale in comparison to attention to detail. Be smart, be respectful, be sincere as it too is also a sign of respect. Respect is not black and white and no manual will encompass how to show respect. I assure you I can go to parade rest in a disrespectful manner if I so wished to. Will you catch me observing military customs and courtesies at a public airport? No way. Why do we not wear uniforms at airports anymore? We become targets, does not rendering standard military customs and courtesies during such a time render the no use of uniform null? Of course... we may as well tell everyone we are soldiers. There is a time and place for everything, and respect requires attention to detail.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 11 at 2018 7:20 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 11 May 2018 19:20:26 -0400

1. If you know they are senior, and they know you are junior, then I strongly suggest you assume the position- could save you a lot of grief down the road.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made May 20 at 2018 11:19 AM

SFC Francisco Rosario — Sun, 20 May 2018 11:19:42 -0400

This falls in the category of "Common Courtesies". Its just like saulting an officer when you are in civillian clothes. If you plan on making the Army a career then you will some day understand. These are the little things that can take you to bigger things in your career.

Response by SGT Aric Lier made May 20 at 2018 11:24 AM

SGT Aric Lier — Sun, 20 May 2018 11:24:19 -0400

it really could come down to the situation,Ive had NCO's and even in the position told my troops knock that shit off and relax ...on the other side if im tearing you a new one for something stupid you may have done , you better be locked up.

Response by CPT Jeff Reichardt made May 20 at 2018 11:52 AM

CPT Jeff Reichardt — Sun, 20 May 2018 11:52:44 -0400

I spent 24 years of my 30 as an enlisted. I rode tge rank train quite a frw times. ( E-1 to E-4. E-4 to E-5. E5 to E4. E4 to E-1. ) Then i wised up. Protocol is there for many reasons. Once i found that out, i was golden and went to E7 I went to the darkside. I never saw O1.

Now for extra credit, explain to me how my DOR for Captain is before my DOR for E7?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2018 8:06 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 May 2018 20:06:12 -0400

It depends on the situation. You run into one of your NCOs at a bar and y'all are both drinking no. If you are out and about and you run into an NCO use your best judgement. People act like going to parade rest for someone is the hardest shit in the world.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made May 21 at 2018 12:07 AM

PFC Elijah Rose — Mon, 21 May 2018 00:07:24 -0400

I gate to bring up the elephant in the room but no one cares about D&C. Even sticklers for D&C don't really care, we all do it because everyone else does.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2018 8:03 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Aug 2018 20:03:27 -0400

I'm reading the responses and I see a lot of do it "because". That is not what SGT Private RallyPoint Member asked. He merely asked if there was a regulation. He never once said he didn't want to or thought he shouldn't. Why not provide him guidance to find the correct answer. SGT Private RallyPoint Member made a magnificent post about AR 600-25 stating Officers are not required to be saluted when Senior or Subordinate is in civilian attire. Why the would an NCO expect to be given all the courtesies when not in uniform?

I also see lots of they are senior to you comments. So I will pose this question as well, how many NCOs in this discussion stand at the position of a mention when speaking to an Officer and I will tell you in my experience the answer is very few. Look in the same manual many of you are quoting for customs and courtesies and reread what the position if attention is. Is this how you stand when addressing an officer? If the answer is no, and for the majority of the enlisted members I have ran into in 22 years I would say the answer is no, why do you demand to be given respect but don't give it yourself. A junior NCO will stand at parade rest for a CSM but will not stand at attention for their new platoon leader. The responses here come off as a bit hypocritical. If your answer to my question is yes, I applaud you. If it is no think about how you behave in your day to day career before throwing out the easy answer. Provide guidance to a young NCO asking a valid question and don't just give them the because I said so or if you are professional you will. Just my humble opinion as a Warrant Officer and former NCO who has seen and dealt with Soldiers, NCOs, and Officers of all ranks.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2019 9:36 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Apr 2019 09:36:16 -0400

If you know who they are, and what rank they are, YES!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2019 1:46 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 01:46:46 -0400

Character.
The junior will show good character to give respect.
The senior will in return respect the junior by setting a comfortable tone, thus showing good character.

If the senior does not initiate a less formal engagement it should be in a private setting. Otherwise the senior will be showing the lack of character.

My opinion.

No regulations needed.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jan 23 at 2021 10:16 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 22:16:27 -0500

Regs apply 24/7