Do you think a General or Admiral is still considered a servicemember in the eyes of their subordinates?

2019-11-21T15:01:58-05:00

I don't think they are. Any officer with stars on their chest or shoulders is a politician period. If you need Congress to confirm a promotion, you're no longer a servicemember...you're a politician and you loose the majority of respect of your subordinates. Minus a very few generals and admirals. What do you think? PFC Private RallyPoint Member SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SSG(P) James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" LTC Stephen F. CPL Dave Hoover SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SSG Private RallyPoint Member Capt Dwayne Conyers CPT Jack Durish

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Nov 21 at 2019 3:27 PM

2019-11-21T15:27:17-05:00

Yes - absolutely yes - in answer to the first question. No real thoughts yet on your commentary - some things require more than a hip-shot answer.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Nov 21 at 2019 4:50 PM

2019-11-21T16:50:46-05:00

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member, I think you fail to understand the jobs assigned to General and Flag Officers (GO/FO). I worked at the unified command and major command levels for over 20 years (military, contractor, and DAC) and had the opportunity to see what GO/FO actually do. You might think they are politicians, but the facts show they are military officers who have to deal with politicians on a regular basis. I spent time working with Air Force, Navy, and Army GO/FO and all of them felt the burden of working with appointed members of the Administration (Deputy Assistant Under Secretary of Something), Members of Congress and Senators, and the legions of staffers working for Congress-persons. In many cases the GO/FO spent a lot of time preparing for these Distinguished Visitors from DC. They were briefed on critical operational and budget issues and how the DV supported or failed to support the organization. They often had to digest a 4-inch binder of position papers on these issues and other issues their subordinates wanted to get in front of the Washington luminaries. (This is probably all done electronically now, so the GO/FO is reading on his laptop or phone.) Because of this part of their mission, you might think they are politicians. (Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas.) Actually the GO/FO-politician meetings I was in showed me that the GO/FO represented his or her command and mission very well. The politicians liked to ask what they thought were "Gotcha" questions, but almost all of the time the GO/FO were way ahead of them.

The other half of the GO/FO's time was spent actually trying to run the organization they were in charge of. They dealt with the really sticky problems. Budgetary issues, personnel cuts, UCMJ violations, and a seemingly never-ending stream of Presidential Directives, Operations Orders, Planning Directives and lots of other stuff all requiring their approval or decision to keep the place functioning. One of my favorite quotes from H.T. Johnson, Gen, USAF, and US Commander in Chief Transportation, "Any staff work that takes longer than four to six weeks probably isn't worth doing." He was right, but it didn't stop the folks in the Pentagon from generating questions requiring at least that much time to answer.

I never determined the political affiliation of any of the GO/FO I worked around. Many were men and women of strong moral conviction and readily admitted their faith in God. They were often humbled by the power and responsibility they had been given. I'm reasonably confident they voted in elections, but never said whom they voted for. Overall, they are military professionals working at a much different level than you or me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2019 4:58 PM

2019-11-21T16:58:39-05:00

I think you and I should sit down sometime and you can tell me everything you know about military service and then after that 5 minutes is up I’ll correct all of your misconceptions

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2019 5:40 PM

2019-11-21T17:40:44-05:00

Yes. And I think Lt Col Jim Coe gave a very informative and eloquent response. You would do well to read what he wrote

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2019 7:34 PM

2019-11-21T19:34:17-05:00

I disagree. All Generals and Admirals deserve the respect earned by their rank and servicemembers recognize this. I would have like to see the reaction if someone had called Lt. Gen. Lewis "Chesty" Puller a politician.

https://www.military.com/marine-corps/5-reasons-why-chesty-puller-marine-corps-legend.html

5 Reasons Why Chesty Puller is a Marine Corps Legend

Lt. Gen. Lewis "Chesty" Puller was a Marine’s Marine. A bonafide badass leatherneck, with the scars to prove it. Here are 5 reasons why this Marine is a legend.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2019 8:52 PM

2019-11-21T20:52:17-05:00

I believe that your oath states you will obey the orders of the officers appointed over you. And unless something has changed drastically in the last minute, a General is still and officer.

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Nov 21 at 2019 11:25 PM

2019-11-21T23:25:53-05:00

What? Of course they are service members. It's not a matter of opinion. They put in more time and work than 99% of the other military service members.
It almost seems like you have a chip on your shoulder. Did something happen? Do you have a negative attitude? Am I just misinterpreting things?

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Nov 22 at 2019 12:08 AM

2019-11-22T00:08:19-05:00

I have various opinions. While on Active Duty, the high ranking Officers I encountered were tow Generals and they were MOT politicians. The CH in Germany was ‘Psychotic’ based upon his orders caused the death of six Soldiers in 1986-87! That being said; working as a Civilian (post Active Duty), the CH and several other Generals I worked with and socialized with were NOT politicians! They demonstrated genuine concern and care for the Marines under their Command. However; after hearing testimony’ at the so-called’ impeachment hearings, Those Officers struck me as ignorant and disrespectful political pawns! Just MY two cents!

Response by SFC Scott Higgins made Nov 22 at 2019 7:54 AM

2019-11-22T07:54:58-05:00

SPC(P) Voye, It saddens me to see a post like this from a soldier, any soldier, much less one who is looking for a promotion. Not one general or admiral made their rank as a "politician" as you call them. They, just like enlisted folks, did their time, punched their tickets along the way to get to the rank they earned. Yes earned. Sure, there are some "bad apples" out there, just like in the NCO corps but to call anyone a politician who serves our country as you do is disrespectful of the time and effort they put in to get there. I also read Lt. Col Jim Coe's very well written and informative response. You should take a moment and read it. Yes, they are still service members, subject to UCMJ - Just Like You!

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Nov 22 at 2019 8:35 AM

2019-11-22T08:35:49-05:00

The best way to answer this Is they wear A Military uniform and a Military rank that out ranks you, if I was you I would treat them as such. If all they were is politicians then why wear the uniform when they can just a take a Congressional or Senate seat and get out of your way.

Bias much?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2019 9:50 AM

2019-11-22T09:50:52-05:00

If they're wearing the uniform, then they are a Service Member. My promotion orders have the Secretary of the Army (a civilian) basically appointing me as a SFC. Does that make me any less a Service Member?

Response by SSgt Paul Millard made Nov 22 at 2019 10:27 AM

2019-11-22T10:27:29-05:00

They are first and foremost Service members- although they now have expanded areas of responsibility( see LT. Col Coe's response). As a young AF SSGT I had the pleasure to spend a good deal of time with LT. Gen Gordon E. Fornell, much of this time was off duty. His dedication to all things AF, and combat record leave no doubt he was a service member.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2019 11:23 AM

2019-11-22T11:23:36-05:00

Of course they are.

Response by SPC Steven Depuy made Nov 22 at 2019 1:55 PM

2019-11-22T13:55:08-05:00

They are all service members. Some you hold in higher regard than others. General Mattis someone I would follow anywhere. General Wesley Clark, not so much. You can usually tell when they pass away, and the things those who served with them say.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Nov 22 at 2019 2:29 PM

2019-11-22T14:29:01-05:00

I think you are really, really mistaken and have zero idea of how things work higher up in the chain of command.

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Nov 22 at 2019 3:50 PM

2019-11-22T15:50:48-05:00

Given that every commission, from 2LT upward, requires Congressional approval, I guess you think all officers are politicians and not worthy of your respect. While it's true that there have been some "political generals" in US military history, and there may be, in some states, a political Adjutant General with no military experience, appointed by the Governor, it is not the norm. All of the Generals and Admirals had their time on the line. Whether you like them or not, you should respect that. They have a whole lot more experience and knowledge than you have, apparently, acquired to this point.

Response by SN Mike Duffy made Nov 22 at 2019 7:17 PM

2019-11-22T19:17:18-05:00

If you have known one since he was a LT you wouldn't have posted this.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2019 7:46 PM

2019-11-22T19:46:54-05:00

This is pretty much exactly what the 2LT just said. Why are you using the words of a pardoned war criminal?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2019 7:56 PM

2019-11-22T19:56:23-05:00

What do you think a service member is? Leading up to that promotion to BG there is about 25-30 years of service to our country and a good number of promotions.
Those stars look the same walking back and forth to a chow hall in Afghanistan.
Just because they serve in a different capacity doesn’t diminish their service or the respect they deserve.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Nov 22 at 2019 10:41 PM

2019-11-22T22:41:08-05:00

From what I have seen - I mostly agree. Along with a host of CSM's.

Response by SGT Shaun Zilinski made Nov 23 at 2019 12:42 AM

2019-11-23T00:42:17-05:00

I think most MOS’s have to have dual hats to navigate the rigors of military service and civilian cooperation. Generals/Admirals are no different

Response by SFC Bill Kurtz made Nov 23 at 2019 2:33 AM

2019-11-23T02:33:26-05:00

Wow, just wow. If you can’t respect those appointed over you, you need to leave the service. You crack on them having to be appointed through Congress. What are you smoking? If you can’t respect the person, at least respect the uniform. Sheesh!

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Nov 23 at 2019 7:43 AM

2019-11-23T07:43:07-05:00

Ah, the bliss of the ignorantly uniformed.

Response by PO1 Eric Booker made Nov 23 at 2019 12:41 PM

2019-11-23T12:41:08-05:00

ANOTHER no time wonder who thinks they "know" something after a few hours on duty. Go figure!lol! "yes, please SN...tell me about how life at sea REALLY works after your two weeks of arduous sea duty"!lol!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2019 1:08 PM

2019-11-23T13:08:46-05:00

I think you’re way off base with that comment. There’s a difference between being a politician and having to be political. I have never met one General Officer who did not have the well being of his soldiers in mind. You listen to any of them speak from Gen(R) Powell to Gen(R) Mattis and they always had the well being of their Soldiers and Marines first! I think as someone who may be an NCO soon you may want to reconsider your view and open your mind further.

Response by SFC Eric Hedberg made Nov 23 at 2019 10:55 PM

2019-11-23T22:55:06-05:00

Well, the last 5 star was General of the Army Omar Bradley... He died in 1981... Last one... and Chester Nimitz was the last Fleet Admiral of the Navy. I think he died in the mid 60's.

Response by SFC Eric Hedberg made Nov 23 at 2019 11:03 PM

2019-11-23T23:03:22-05:00

SPC Voye, you need to brush up on your military history. Regardless of country General officers set the pace for every engagement and was directly responsible for the success and failure of evry one. Erwin Rommel, George Patton, Douglas MaCarthur, General Montgomery...Yamamoto... All of these men, enemy or not have seen just as much death than any SPC in the US Army now. Clearly, you are not that stupid.

Response by COL Joel Weeks made Nov 24 at 2019 5:30 PM

2019-11-24T17:30:21-05:00

All due respect SPC Voye, but any officer to be promoted to the rank of Major (or Lt Commander for USN and USCG) must be confirmed by the Senate. It’s US Law. And most General and Flag officers strive extremely hard to maintain an apolitical public posture. We swear to support and defend the constitution of these United States, NOT a political party.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Nov 25 at 2019 6:44 PM

2019-11-25T18:44:38-05:00

I can make this simple, Flag Officers are political because they have to answer questions to the politicians that appointed them. On the military side, generals and admiral only approve or disapprove recommendations from their staff. Most deals with administrative recommendations as well as approve operational plans and brief backs. The majority of generals I knew on a personal basis were prior commanders; I'd follow them to hell & back.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2020 5:45 PM

2020-01-04T17:45:06-05:00

Your basic premise is flawed. All officers (Maj and above) have to be confirmed by the Senate. Are you saying majors aren’t service members?

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made Jan 4 at 2020 10:15 PM

2020-01-04T22:15:07-05:00

Only if they came up in the ranks like everyone else by being promoted commissioned. Appointments no, like the Surgeon General, Doctors and other positions that are not commissioned officers I believe but could be wrong. Only commissioned officers can command a unit, company, battalion, regiment or other innities

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2020 3:55 PM

2020-01-05T15:55:35-05:00

News flash there high speed.. every Regular officer, O4 and above, is appointed with the "advice and consent" of the Senate.

More alarming is that you, as a soon to be/new NCO actually have this opinion and are trying to solicit others to agree. IMO this just shows your immaturity to your soon to be role as an NCO.

Response by CPT Endre Barath made Jan 6 at 2020 12:12 AM

2020-01-06T00:12:40-05:00

Love the thought provoking question.... when I was a cadet at USMA my fellow cadet's father was a Full Colonel and he would not get promoted to being a General because he did not play the politics.... yes General Staff sometimes sacrifice their morals, ethics and participles for a promotion....

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Jan 6 at 2020 2:48 PM

2020-01-06T14:48:14-05:00

Yes, they are. I see them as service members even if I don't agree with them.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Jan 6 at 2020 2:50 PM

2020-01-06T14:50:04-05:00

Generals and Admirals are considered servicemembers because they are. Even if I don't agree with them on TV they still served. Isn't politics frowned upon anyway from anybody wearing the uniform from the highest 4-star to the lowest buck private?

Response by CPT Philip Bailey made Jan 9 at 2020 9:29 PM

2020-01-09T21:29:47-05:00

Actually all officers are confirmed by congress (US Constitution Article 2, Section 2).

Response by CSM William Payne made Jan 12 at 2020 5:42 PM

2020-01-12T17:42:09-05:00

I was a Command Sergeant Major for seventeen years. Nine of those were at the nominative or general officer level, seven at the Division or Command Level under Major Generals. All of them had at least one deployment as a general officer to Iraq or Afghanistan. They were indeed Soldiers.

Response by CPL Joseph Elinger made Jan 14 at 2020 12:55 AM

2020-01-14T00:55:35-05:00

In US Army, NCOs above E7 are promoted vua Congress, no?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2020 6:09 AM

2020-01-14T06:09:12-05:00

I consider them servicemembers. You don't have to be a general officer to be a political beast. You should see the way many CPTs & MAJs behave below the zone and especially in the zone.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Jan 14 at 2020 9:51 AM

2020-01-14T09:51:43-05:00

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member FLASH BACK. in the early part of my Career I remember Warrant Officers could only be punish by a recommendation from and Command Officer To Congress. That did not make them politicians. That made them a power piece to get things in the TECH. feild done with out the red tape interferance. Those individuals (Warrents) were so far from politics That they would put themselves and Career in danger to get things done to save Soldiers.

IMO your SGT have a Large misconception on what it is to be a Flag Officer. How ever we have seen from time to time LT. Col and above Become Highly Political because that is where they set career goals to go, However making a Generalized grouping of Officer becoming Political as a certain rank is like saying that career Soldiers are LIFER'S (lazy ignorant F%&$*!@ expecting retirement). Your statement resembles a Lack of experience, and may just be something you heard somewhere else by someone else. MTC

Response by SP5 Ward Posey made Jan 14 at 2020 10:04 AM

2020-01-14T10:04:28-05:00

I knew briefly a couple of Generals . They always kept their political opinions silent around me and really did not comment on others except if it affected the Army or the Constitution. All have passed now but I doubt they would have stayed with this and the last couple of Administrations.

Response by LTC George Morgan made Jan 14 at 2020 6:23 PM

2020-01-14T18:23:07-05:00

In the Field, who is in Command: The man with the Stars on his Shoulder. So YES he/she is a Service Member, If you think he/she is not: Go tell him/her what to do and watch the effect on you career!

Response by SSgt Carroll Straus made Jan 19 at 2020 3:54 AM

2020-01-19T03:54:36-05:00

Please.

Response by CAPT James McClure made Jan 21 at 2020 1:13 AM

2020-01-21T01:13:07-05:00

When I was a junior officer in the 1960s, I had staff jobs (before and after my Vietnam tour) that brought me into contact with many senior officers. A bunch of stuffy old guys, I thought... often difficult to work with. Then I looked up their bios. An Air Force colonel who made my life miserable was an ace bomber pilot in WWII. The admiral had been a legendary destroyer skipper. I wasn't impressed with an elderly captain until I noticed his MOH ribbon. Yes, general and flag officers have to be politicians, especially these days, because it's part of the job. Their ability to navigate the shark-infested waters of Washington assures that the rest of us have the resources we need. It's easy to forget that these guys did not always wear stars: They started out as warriors, and got promoted because they were good at it. Most of the ones I met never forgot where they came from.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Feb 2 at 2020 7:56 PM

2020-02-02T19:56:24-05:00

For those who are not familiar with what almost all General and Flag Officers do, this might seem a valid question. For those of us who have seen the way things work at Division and above, this is not a valid question. The GO's with whom I've worked are the hardest-working people I know. They routinely work 12 or more hours a day, they must read and analyze enormous amounts of information, and they must normally multi-task several very important assignments at once. And as LTC Coe notes below, they must also regularly provide important testimony to Congress and senior national leaders. How do you become a GO? You perform extremely well for 20-25 years in very hard jobs. Most of the Army's GO's are Airborne, Ranger and/or Special Forces, and they have successfully commanded at Company, Bn, Bde and Division levels. Poliiticians? Not even close.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2020 5:05 PM

2020-02-03T17:05:36-05:00

EVERY officer above O-3 requires congress's confirmation for promotion. If that's your dividing point, then I'm afraid you have a rather jaundiced view of field-grade officers.

Not sure of O-2 and O-3 required approval. All I know is that the message came out and I got promotized.

Response by PO2 Kevin Cullen made Feb 3 at 2020 10:08 PM

2020-02-03T22:08:02-05:00

wow. I Never Thought about the subject until Now.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2020 9:02 PM

2020-02-09T21:02:27-05:00

I agree with you 100%.

Response by TSgt Ken Vandevoort made Feb 12 at 2020 11:57 PM

2020-02-12T23:57:28-05:00

I spent 75 days temporary duty as a Protocol NCO in a command headquarters. We were treated well and considered team members. We had a lot of respect for the two generals in the command. This command also encouraged all members worldwide to submit ideas to make the mission better. If your idea was approved, your squadron commander received a stargram to present to you. I had four. That was 34 years ago and I still have the team photos and plaque I was given on the wall.

Response by Lt Col Robert Farnette made Feb 16 at 2020 1:14 AM

2020-02-16T01:14:21-05:00

As usual, depends on the individual. I've seen one or two ass-kissers make flag rank, but most have been the right guy for the job. One BG in my unit flew 175 combat missions over Nam when he was a captain. I don't think the experience left him when he got confirmed to O-7. Oh, and I had to get confirmed when I made O-5. It was just administrative.
R.L. Farnette LTC (R)

Response by CPL Mark Kirkpatrick made Feb 29 at 2020 5:04 PM

2020-02-29T17:04:25-05:00

Bullshit. I would suggest that you do not share any more of your wisdom with your chain. That would be a good way to be a 40 year old E-5.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Mar 9 at 2020 11:22 AM

2020-03-09T11:22:40-04:00

This just seems to be a short sighted question that is most likely coming from a jaded perspective. Clearly they are service members. They weren't commissioned as Flag Officers. They earned that rank while climbing the ladder. I agree that the higher you go up the chain the more administrative the position becomes and more political the stakes but that doesn't reduce their status as a service member.

Response by Maj Rob Drury made Mar 12 at 2020 5:50 AM

2020-03-12T05:50:23-04:00

First of all, I'm not quite sure how your classification of "politician" diminishes their status as servicemembers. Also, ALL officer promotions to O-4 and higher require senate confirmation, so I guess there are a whole lot of "politicians" who are no longer servicemembers.

Response by MAJ Ray Esparza made Mar 26 at 2020 12:43 AM

2020-03-26T00:43:34-04:00

I’m a maverick, 6 years enlisted up to Spec-6,E-6, then on to OCS and retired at 20 years as a Major, O-4. Every facet of military life is political, you know you must get “walks on water” efficiency reports or bye bye.