Do you think a SFC should come out of WOCS as a CW2 instead of a WO1?

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 19:39:01 -0400

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 21 at 2014 7:49 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 19:49:02 -0400

Works for the Navy!

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Apr 21 at 2014 9:55 PM

LTC Jason Bartlett — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:55:52 -0400

I should of came out of OCS at least a CPT....

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 10:07 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 22:07:35 -0400

I know it has been done in the past and I believe that it is being brought back in the next fiscal year. But don't quote me on that

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2014 9:58 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:58:16 -0400

I don't think so Battle! We are all on the same sheet of music graduating from WOCS. Now, if we have a Masters, maybe. I just think that we're all even once we graduate.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Apr 22 at 2014 10:09 AM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:09:47 -0400

I know that if an Officer "reverts" they go back to a W01 unless they are a CPT with two years time in grade. I think the reason behind that is a CW2 is considered a "commissioned" position and therefore you must first be a W01 and then commissioned.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2014 10:18 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:18:20 -0400

The policy in the Guard is a little different. So far I haven't seen it adversely affect units in my state - IAW NRB-ARH Policy Memo# 07-026, SFC (E7) may be promoted to CW2
if they meet the following criteria:
-- SFC must have served a minimum of two consecuative years as
     an E7
-- If the SFC is certified by DA MOS proponent prior to initial
     appointment (WOBC is NOT required), they may be appointed in
     the grade of CW2 upon completion of WOCS.
-- If the SFC is NOT certified by DA MOS proponent prior to
     initial appointment (WOBC IS required), they may be appointed
     in the grade of CW2 upon completion of WOCS and WOBC.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Apr 22 at 2014 7:48 PM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:48:37 -0400

SFC Cassatt: Absolutely not, and from experience, I was enlisted as an SSG for twenty-two years and became a WO1. I didn't realize it then, but it is vital to development that the WO1 has the proper transition time. The transition was a challenging one, I had to change lanes, change roles, and mindsets and in time I learned to pull back and become a quiet professional. When I was a CW2, and transitioned to Chaplain Candidate, I went from CW2 to 2LT. I didn't realize it at that time, it would have been detrimental to my career if I would have transitioned into Captain. I thank God, that I had the transition time. I had to gain understanding of what is acceptable in the NCO branch, and what is acceptable in the Warrant Officer Branch. I am now a Chaplain and the rank of Captain, and I am thankful for the learning curve from 2LT, 1LT, to CPT. When you are a 2LT, and you drop the ball it automatically comes back to you. When you are a 1LT, and you drop the ball you have grace to pick it back up. When you are a CPT, the last thing you want is to obtain a referred OER, or possible a GOMAR for having the perception by your Superiors that you are not competent. Development time is crucial; it is not enough to have the academics; it is imperative that you know your lane, and are able to mentor and develop others. V/R CH (CPT) Davis

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Sep 25 at 2014 5:54 PM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:54:22 -0400

SFC Jason Cassatt,

Lets push this a little further. What about direct appointment of a Warrant Officer (no WOCS required)? How many ways are there to become a Commissioned Officer? OCS, Direct Appointment for certain specialties, Service Academies, ROTC, Others? I remember Green to Gold also, but don't remember details.

How many ways to appoint a Warrant Officer? One: WOCS. For technical specialties, CID, MI, Cooks, Maintenance, Supply, etc could this be a way to attract qualified Senior NCOs who may not otherwise apply?

One of my first Commanders was a Direct Appointed Warrant Officer from when that was authorized and he was the best of the best as far as leaders and technical experts.

Just a thought. Hope I don't get beat up too bad.

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 2 at 2014 11:18 PM

SGT Richard H. — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 23:18:19 -0400

Let me answer your question with a question: Do you think a college student with an MBA should enter the Army as an O-2?

(answer it for yourself, but my answer is NO)

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 6:43 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 06:43:10 -0400

NO! An SFC has no more experience as a Warrant Officer than a Sergeant or Staff Sergeant coming out WOCS.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 9:49 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 09:49:46 -0400

I am conflicted on this.

A lot of the WO MOSs require a feeder MOS from the enlisted ranks. I would say that if an E7 who has completed his/her NCOES and has been in that feeder MOS for a certain length of time (not sure what that would be) might already be an "expert" in their field and should be considered for CW2 upon completion of WOBC.

That being said, there is something about coming up through the ranks like everyone else.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 10:40 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:40:12 -0400

I think it depends on their MOS, as a Flight Warrant? No. Technical? Maybe... but no I think they should come up through the ranks same as anyone accepted. What about a MSG?

Response by SGT Christopher Chavez made Oct 3 at 2014 3:47 PM

SGT Christopher Chavez — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 15:47:56 -0400

Honestly no they shouldn't, seeing as Warrent Officers are supposed to be Subject Matter Experts at whatever field they became a Warrent in, it wouldn't be conducive for them. As much experience as a Senior Enlisted Service Member has he/she may not have the technical knowhow expected from CW2 and higher. Just like everyone else they need to go through all the ranks from the bottom up.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 4:12 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 16:12:19 -0400

I was almost able to do this when I was appointed a warrant officer. The SFC-to-CW2 policy was in effect. I was a promotable SSG when I was appointed a WO1, and exactly two months later I received orders promoting me to SFC (by mistake). A lot of folks did go from SFC to CW2.

I tend to agree with SFC Private RallyPoint Member and SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS. We had those policies (direct appointment and E7 to W2) in effect back in the early 80s and I think they worked okay. In fact, there was no WOCS before 1983 or 1984.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 8 at 2014 12:30 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 00:30:02 -0400

I would say no because it is like setting up a new CWO for failure. Just like a day 1 Private...a day 1 SGT...and a day one 2LT....there has to be an expected period of learning . In aviation, when you see the WOJGie Bears being stuck with duties like "fridge fund OIC" you know not to ask them to run up your acft looking for technical expertise. CW2's and expected to hit the ground running and that is why I say MORE money maybe,....but not CW2.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Oct 8 at 2014 2:04 PM

1SG Harold Piet — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 14:04:07 -0400

Response by CW2 Nicholas Doben made Oct 8 at 2014 3:52 PM

CW2 Nicholas Doben — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 15:52:17 -0400

I did. That was 1985, though. I would have to have taken a cut in pay from E-7 to WO1. At the time, there were rules against that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2014 8:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 08:48:25 -0400

This is a very good question. I am not sure what answer would be appropriate. All I know is that the Army has a WO1 rank for a reason, my guess is that because basically all paygrades in the Army can apply for WOCS. In the Navy, you MUST be a CPO(E-7) at a mininum in order to apply, nothing lower. And this is for "walking" warrants, not pilots. As of 2013, the Navy has permanently cancelled their Warrant Pilot program. And they do not have a WO1 rank/paygrade, their's starts at CW2 only. So even a Navy "walking" warrant starts out at CW2, why can't the Army if you are E-7 or higher? So, knowing this, I would say that it would only be fair to promote an Army E-7 or higher to CW2 right out of WOCS or WOBC. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but, an Army "walking" warrant isn't going operational until after WOBC anyway, and you have all that enlisted MOS experience that works in your favor as long as you are going into a feeder warrant MOS......... Maybe the Navy is wrong, I have no idea. Million dollar question.

Response by CW4 Michael LaGrave made Oct 9 at 2014 2:51 PM

CW4 Michael LaGrave — Thu, 09 Oct 2014 14:51:42 -0400

From around 1985 until the ratification of the Warrant Officer Management Act (WOMA) in 1992, a SFC was pinned a CW2 upon completion of WOCS. That being said, I was a SFC with exactly one day in grade when I was pinned WO1 in 1993. I barely missed the cut. At the time, I was a little disappointed because it meant a much larger pay raise. That being said, as an Aviation Warrant Officer (AWO), I was lacking in the technical expertise that a CW2 was expected to have. One of the side effects of WOMA, after a few years, was that with extended flight school delays, AWO's were coming to the unit as a CW2. This degraded the professional expertise and credibility that a CW2 had, because an outside soldier saw a CW2 and expected him to have the same technical and tactical expertise that the CW2 Instructor Pilot had. When the young AWO spoke he really gave no credibility or technical and tactical expertise to the conversation. One did not earn their "credibility dot" until they were pinned CW3. That being said, I say that no, a WO1 needs to stay a WO1 for the full two years after the completion of the technical qualification course. A brand new, fresh out of flight school warrant officer does not need to be a CW2 regardless of the prior rank.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2014 10:16 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:16:20 -0400

While I do agree with it for Tech's, I don't for pilots. The biggest reason is it lets the pilots be treated as a WO1 when they need to be. Not in the fridge filling aspect of the job but more in the "new guy I am still learning this job" part of it. Back in the day when pilots had to wait until the end of flight school to pin WO1 it was more important. Now they don't stay WO1 long in the unit due to the length of flight school. For Techs, we are already expected to know our job to a greater extent so it really would make it easier for the SFC's transitioning.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2014 12:41 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Oct 2014 12:41:53 -0400

As a prior SFC, I would love to say I agree with this. I, however, do not necessarily think it's fair to those who were not a SFC prior to transitioning. Now this isn't a fair/no fair scenario. What I mean about the fair part is what about those SSGs or SGTs that have been in a while and may even have far more experience then the SFC? if it were something along those lines then it should be based on level of experience, not rank! On a different note, I do think that we Warrants should be given PAY along the same lines as the prior service Officers. Pay scale based on the 0-1E line and above. Maybe a new topic for discussion....

Response by CW3 Terry Tanner made Oct 11 at 2014 4:07 PM

CW3 Terry Tanner — Sat, 11 Oct 2014 16:07:41 -0400

I've read some very valid comments on this subject but I have to agree, regardless of your technical experience there is a learning curve to becoming an officer. Many Warrant Officers have a hard time transitioning from being the NCO. WO1 is a great time for learning your new lane.

I understand CW2 comes automatically in two years but "Chief" will have a lot more responsibilities and should be capable of answering those tough questions and even more so have earned the confidence and trust of the Commander.

Response by CW5 Kenneth Foster made Oct 12 at 2014 1:16 PM

CW5 Kenneth Foster — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 13:16:35 -0400

As a prodigy of the direct commission in 1983 I would state that today's Soldiers ranks in general do not get the skill sets nor training to either be direct commissioned
or promoted to CW2 upon completion of WOBC. There are too many challenges and expectations put upon the shoulders of a Warrant Officer. When I made WO1 I was one of a few to be assigned to the 11th ACR and made it with some challenges. I was a highly skilled truck technician and knew how to read electrical issues well.

I know the Guard is making SFC's into CW2's upon completion of WOBC but they did it because of a recruiting issue.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2016 3:11 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:11:23 -0500

Yes, A Captain with a few years of experience comes out a CW2. I was a senior E8 in Special Forces, I am currently in Flight School as a W01. I have 14 years of experience in Special Operations. I have done hundreds of Assault Operations, to include planning. I have proved myself in every selection the army has thrown at me. Yet, a Captain with less "experience" than me is entitled to CW2. Granted I don't have the stick time and flight experience but neither does that Captain turned CW2.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2016 3:19 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:19:39 -0500

A Captain with a few years of experience transitions to CW2. I was an E8 with 14 years in Special Operations. I did hundreds of air assault missions to include planning. I don't have the stick time but neither does that former Captain. Opening up immediate CW2 promotion to senior E7 and above in certain MOS may bring quality combat proven soldiers into the warrant officer ranks.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2016 8:32 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Dec 2016 08:32:54 -0500