Do you think Drill Sgts going back to AIT will fix things or make them worse?

2018-04-13T20:10:35-04:00

Currently doing my 9th month at fort Lee, Fully graduated and waiting on orders at the moment , recently I have seen a surge of plt sgts becoming Drill sgts due t9 the new army tradoc standard . Do you think this will fix the lack of discipline ? Or open up a bunch of new problems

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2018 8:13 PM

2018-04-13T20:13:07-04:00

The only thing I have noticed about the AIT PSG gone DS is when they comeback from Jackson their chests are really puffed up. Only time will tell.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Apr 13 at 2018 8:16 PM

2018-04-13T20:16:21-04:00

I’d vote
Neither
It is a step in the right direction but it’s not a panacea for all that ails

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2018 8:30 PM

2018-04-13T20:30:54-04:00

No! Tradoc 350-6 states how should AIT soldier should be treated. So, campaign hat or not, it will not.

Additionally, a Sergeant that embodies the spirit NCO Corps will always instill discipline and standards. So, if you uave a shitty Sergeant as a Platoon Sergeant or Drill Sergeant he is still a shitty Sergeant. The AIT PSG or DS position will only amplify it.

Note: I Am AIT PSG volunteering to convert as a DS because I believe we need solid NCOs for these positions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2018 8:53 PM

2018-04-13T20:53:51-04:00

They can't make it worse. I think they should have kept drill sergeants in AIT and never got rid of them.

Response by LCpl Justin Farris made Apr 13 at 2018 9:08 PM

2018-04-13T21:08:56-04:00

At School of infantry, infantry training Bn. The Combat instructors were much more demanding and harder than our DI’s from recruit training aboard Marine recruit depot San Diego. Most DI’s were not infantry. The infantry combat instructors were much more old school and most were fresh off of deployment from Afghanistan. We got more freedom and respect but were challenged at a much higher level. And if you screwed up, the punishments were a lot worse. Even my DI’s in boot camp told me infantry school was gonna be tough. One told me “Those Mother f*ckers run EVERYWHERE!”

Response by 1SG Frank Boynton made Apr 13 at 2018 10:36 PM

2018-04-13T22:36:12-04:00

Nope won’t fix a thing. There are underlying issues that need to be addressed among the leadership of the Army. NCO’s need to stay out of politics and do their job. Officers do not direct NCO’s. How could they? They don’t have a clue what we do or at least that was my experience when I was in, but that was ok because they didn’t tell me how to run my squad, platoon or company. NCOs are responsible for enlisted behavior’s. Unfortunately there’s been too many NCOs who are getting the pay but not doing the job. It’s as simple as that.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2018 12:30 AM

2018-04-14T00:30:39-04:00

I Had Drill Sergeants during AIT. I went to the last 91B Field Medic Course before the transition to the 91W then 68W course. We had phases just like AIT a Red Phase and a Yellow Phase. It was actually conducted in a ceremony.

During Red Phase it was like Blue Phase in Basic Training. You were restricted, The Drill Sergeants had high expectations of you but you had some liberties to include daily phone time, on the Pay Phones access to the Day Room and return to bunks for lights out at 2100.

After 4 weeks of that, those of us who had passed our PT Test, had acceptable grades in class and no problems with basic soldiering abilities, (on time, right uniform, properly shaved) we had privileges to include cell phone use, weekend passes and access to Post Activities. while in civilian clothing.

Campaign Hat or Not, its up to the NCO's to lead the way for the Soldiers. If you have laxed leadership the Soldiers will follow suit. Just because the Platoon SGT decides to change his head gear doesn't make him personally any different.

What needs to happen is During AIT Leaders should be developing soldiers through a crawl walk run phase to meet the expectations of them when they reach their respective Duty Stations. You start soldiers off on the right foot, with how to start their Army Career. and the rest will fall in place.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2018 6:22 AM

2018-04-14T06:22:29-04:00

I can’t speak for everyone, since just yesterday I saw some 17C soldiers who are 25 weeks into their AIT training getting yelled at and smoked like it was Day 0 of basic, but so far the drill sergeant that came back to my company hasn’t really had to yell or drop us to make us behave better. Really, he just earned our respect by treating us like human beings instead of trainees and we all decided to do better because of it.

So to answer your question, I don’t think giving people campaign hats is going to change the attitude of the AIT students. I think the extra training our PLT SGTs are getting in how to lead their soldiers is what might make the difference.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2018 7:45 AM

2018-04-14T07:45:17-04:00

I agree with SFC Cedeno, the issue was never whether or not the AIT platoon sergeants needed to be Drill Sergeants, it was that there were so many substandard NCOs filling those positions who did not do their jobs.

Soldiers are a direct reflection of their leadership so when we get an undisciplined PVT in our unit, the first person I will look at is that AIT platoon sergeant because that NCO did not do his/her job by maintaining standards and discipline throughout AIT.

In my opinion, DS should have never been pulled from AIT in the first place.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 14 at 2018 10:35 AM

2018-04-14T10:35:35-04:00

By duty PSG's are not Drill SGT's and never meant to be- PSG's lead and mentor with the basis that you are already trained to certain standards and they are knocking off/ refining the rough edges. Drill SGT;s are suppose to train you to the set standard and drill you on it until you meet that standard. Discipline is somewhat different as well- PSG's don't treat folks as recruits because you aren't when we got you. Drill SGT's enforce discipline as Drill SGT's teaching the discipline.

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Apr 15 at 2018 11:26 AM

2018-04-15T11:26:51-04:00

The hidden elephant in the room isn’t really about Drill Sergeants vs Platoon Sergeants. Upper echelons of command like to point the fingers at the lower levels as the problem, but they seldom look in the mirror and asked what they could do better. Having been a Drill Sergeant from 1989-1991 and most of that in an AIT environment, the chain of command sets the climate for acceptable soldiering and behavioral issues. Some company commanders were tough as nails and set very high achievable standards. Drill Sergeants had very few disciplinary issues to deal with because the soldiers knew the COC wouldn’t tolerate undisciplined behaviors. Another company commander and 1SG took over and they set an entirely different climate. One of being overly caring towards the IET soldiers and very little trust of the Drill Sergeants. We had no idea why that was as we’d always had top company awards, very high graduation rates, and few, if any, Field Grade AR 15’s and Chapter’s. Unfortunately, the incoming COC lasted about 4 months before the CO and 1SG were relieved. During those 4 months, it was hell. Soldierization was basically nonexistent. PT was more or less optional as nothing happened to repeat offenders (and they knew it). Sure, we could yell and do other Drill Sgt things to try and get them back in order and under control, but the CO and 1SG didn’t have our backs. We, as a group, went to the BN CSM. Once he and the BN CDR got involved, the CO and 1SG were history.

Here’s the point, contrary to the notion that Drill Sergeants can walk on water and shit ice cream (which I’m not saying is impossible), but the entire chain of command needs a closer look if NCO’s as a whole aren’t achieving or appearing to achieve expected results.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2018 10:05 PM

2018-04-15T22:05:31-04:00

Honestly the issues with the AIT PSG program is it was never fully manned. Regulation states there is supposed to be a 1-40 ratio most of my two years as an AIT PSG we were at 1-75 ratio.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Feb 7 at 2019 2:10 PM

2019-02-07T14:10:23-05:00

I never understood the logic for removing DS from AIT. Standards were already relaxed, it simply provides an opportunity to more deeply acculturate newly assigned Soldiers. Discipline and standards have been more lax ever since we pulled the DS. Thank you for your service.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2019 5:10 PM

2019-02-07T17:10:41-05:00

TRADOC has gone back and forth on this a number of times. I don't see how it can create a new set of problems.
I firmly don't believe that it takes a drill sergeant to install and maintain discipline. Attending drill sergeant school or any other qualification to wear a drill sergeant hat doesn't magically make you an NCO who will enforce discipline. I have seen undisciplined soldiers in a basic training and one station unit training that had drill sergeants. It is the individual NCO that makes the difference not a hat.
Similarly, in regular units you have varying degrees of military discipline, and it is based on the squad leader platoon sergeant and or first sergeant.
If you were to hold individual soldiers accountable for their lack of discipline, and also hold NCOs accountable for their inability to, or lack of willingness to enforce disciplinary standards, then there would be no need to have drill sergeants in AIT. Of course this implies support from the COC when Soldiers are referred for UCMJ.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Feb 7 at 2019 9:23 PM

2019-02-07T21:23:19-05:00

If you ask me from my long ago experience being a private in the Army the lack of discipline is related to the first unit of assignment and how it deals with discipline issues. BCT and AIT I think are still fairly strict or strict enough. However, I had two units I served in during my brief 3 years on Active Duty......18 months each as part of my Regular Army tour. My first unit over did it a little with discipline issues and potential issues and busted both NCO's and SPC like there was an endless supply. Second unit the pendulum swung the other way and it was a little too lienient with the discipline. In my view that is where the Army needs to focus and I believe General Mattis mentioned it before he retired that not enough Article 15's or Court Martials were happening across the force. What I found during my period of service, disclipinary standards of behavior varied from unit to unit. I still remember my first unit, you could not walk down the street with a coke in your hand without a least one NCO correcting you. Second unit........nobody cared. Just an example.