Do you think having a degree makes you a better soldier in regards to being an Officer?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:15:15 -0500

In my 10 years in uniform I seen a number of soldiers come and go. One thing I noticed is that some of the BEST I came across did t have a degree or so much as an associates. To me, the best leadership comes from the School of Hard Knocks and not a school such as UNC, UVA, UK etc....

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 9:34 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:34:31 -0500

SGT <br><br>The school of hard knocks provides great instruction at the user level. Officers, even brand new Platoon Leaders, have to think more strategically, in terms of the big picture. I think the overall experience and education you receive while pursuing a degree does make you a better person, not in the sense of better than others, but better than you were before you started the path to your degree.<br><br>At the end of the day we need both types of leaders, and more importantly we need leaders with both types of educations. <br>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 11:41 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:41:46 -0500

There are a lot of ways to gain experience and develop character.  It comes down to the individual, not their resume'.  I will, however, always encourage a soldier to always seek out more education.  A background in Hard Knocks with a degree from UNC sounds like a dangerous combination to me.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made Nov 21 at 2013 2:10 PM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:10:37 -0500

It's a good question. Having a degree makes you more flexible and prepared. It gives you the understanding and awareness to consider more factors than might be immediately obvious. This may translate to a perception you are a better leader, and that may be the case. <br><br>Is having a degree a prerequisite for being a good leader? Absolutely not. This is especially true if your degree is in say...music and you want to be in the Engineer Corps. You've met the prerequisite of having the degree, but you may not have full awareness of all that leading entails.<br><br>Fortunately, Tuition at The School of Hard Knox is free. Having the undergraduate degree can shorten your stay. They do work together.<br><br><br>

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Nov 21 at 2013 2:12 PM

LTC Jason Bartlett — Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:12:52 -0500

What about someone with a resume from "The school of hard knocks" and a "Degree"? Are they even better leaders?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 2:10 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 02:10:22 -0500

SPC Kumar,  Follow the link I posted.  Click on the first link google brings up.  It will tell you everything you need to know.  Bottom line: Always self educate when possible.  Your O's and NCO's will appreciate the initiative. 

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 3:48 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 03:48:43 -0500

It does in most cases, but I think most will agree that a degree is not the only factor in predicting a person’s aptitude for being a good Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine – Officer or Enlisted.

It does, however, demonstrate a person’s commitment to a non-required rite of passage, in that no one makes you go to a university. It’s a choice, and certainly a proactive one. It also demonstrates that a person has met above average academic standards in a specific field of study, which matter when you are trying to change and/or create policy, plan missions, and develop new technology for the war-fighter.

This, and it is also a basic standard that is recognized by most world-powers, which also matters when everyone sits down at the table to discuss international matters. It can be quite difficult to explain to a Russian Admiral or Chinese General that he/she should respect a person because while they DIDN’T attend/complete college, they DID learn from their mistakes growing up and came from the school of “Hard Knocks.”

Now, these things said, I managed to complete a BS in psychology a few years ago as an E-6, and as you might expect I did NOT receive additional pay, responsibility, or ranks as a result. Eventually, along with other actions taken, mission completed, experience gained, and an occasional career risk, Big Navy decided to select me for 0-1.

Will I be a better Officer because I have a degree, or would my experience alone have been enough? Much of leadership is personality driven, and no piece of paper or collar device we possess will truly make or break how effective we are as leaders. But education can help, and often does as it expands what we already know, which is to say that anyone who has graduated from the school of “Hard Knocks” can really only enhance what they already know, and therefore be a better Soldier, and God willing, a better Officer as well.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 9:12 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:12:48 -0500

Absolutely. Being an Officer requires that you are well rounded. I think a Liberal Arts education in the traditional sense makes you a much better person and leader. You can gain Graduate degrees to show more technical competence.

Response by SGT Thomas Sullivan made Nov 22 at 2013 9:23 AM

SGT Thomas Sullivan — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:23:27 -0500

Formal Bachelor/Graduate level eduction means very little as far as the context of a leader's capability. For those with the means and typically the means and times, it is a fast track on broadening your education thus facilitating the ability to become a leader slightly easier. But no, degrees do not mean a damn thing. I will reiterate what I have stated before in other posts of this nature on Rally Point. Bachelor's degrees and the requirements for officers to hold them is a throw back antiquated system going back to land owning lords from times past. Look it up sometime, you will laugh at the absurdity of some of our military's requirements to become Brass. The US did not fall so far from the tree when we declared our independence from Britain, nor when we made our proclamation of emancipation (mostly hogwash and hot air).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 9:36 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:36:12 -0500

I have Battle (E6) with a Master's Degree in Education and she refuses to go to the "darkside", as she calls it. She is an EXCELLENT NCO, always ready to teach, train and mentor! My Commander walks to my door daily to ask, "are you ready to submit your packet?" The degree for the Officer portion is part of the prereq, it doesn't make the degree holder better and it definitely doesn't make the non degree holder worse, IMO. Leadership is engrained, some of us have it some don't-and that's with and without degrees.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 9:55 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:55:46 -0500

SGT Jones,

I would ask the question of "Do you have a degree?"

I only ask that because one thing I've learned in over 21 years of service
is that you really don't know the benefits until you have walked that road. An
education is great, be it life experience or college. College is supposed to
help you develop critical reasoning and thinking skills as well as share
lessons learned and best practices in your chosen field.

Now I will be the first one to admit that not everyone who gains and education
(life of academic) applies it. I have seen great Soldiers who have been afforded
every opportunity and had the benefit of great mentors just to waste it. We
have all seen it, wasted talent and intelligence.

My point is, don't dismiss it until you have either experienced it, or
studied it for a good while. Remember, education is the foundation of
everything you do. You said it yourself the "SCHOOL" of hard knocks.
Everything is a learning experience; it just depends on how we apply it.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 10:14 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:14:01 -0500

Historically, people, both Soldiers and civilians, on the aggregate are more informed and better prepared for critical thinking when they have earned an education. An officer's time spent with troops and thinking at the "common-sense" level is quite small. By senior CPT, an officer is in a staff position which will require more than just synthesis; it will require analysis and application of that analysis. These are skills that are inherent in some, but must be learned by most. Hence, the college requirement for officers.

I don't think it has much bearing on leadership, per se however.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 10:16 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:16:38 -0500

Short answer is a resounding yes. You see, we have a unique opportunity in the military where we have access to certain tools to better ourselves through education, e.g., TA, GI Bill, LTHET, etc. Please consider the following abstract taken from, http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/press/cost04/EducationPays2004.pdf, which reads; “The broader societal benefits of investment in higher education receive less attention, but are fundamental to the well-being of our nation.” The real challenge is to balance unit/mission requirements, school options, and cost effectiveness of such investment not only for our enlisted personnel but also for officers.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 10:58 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:58:30 -0500

The school of hard knocks needs to be rounded with a formal education. You can't beat street knowledge for being current and relevant but sometimes you need to be shown the correct way to do things and, more importantly, why. Often formal education is outdated and non-functional in the real world but it still helps to round you out as an individual.

bottom line - It is not required to be an outstanding NCO but it definitely doesn't hurt.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 3:16 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:16:03 -0500

I want to qualify this as saying, I'm a prior active duty enlisted Army solider. I'm now an officer in the Coast Guard Reserve.<div><br></div><div>Having a degree doesn't make you a leader but it may make you a better one. Having a degree wont make you a solider but it can make you a better solider. Four years of professional education is significant. Imagine not going to high school at all and stopping at the 8th grade. How effective at things would you be? Sure you'll know some things but there is so much you're missing out on.</div><div><br></div><div>I have a friend who was 8 years active duty Army in the 82nd Airborne. He was so against college mainly because he felt adversarial towards officers. No real conflicts, he felt that they thought they were better than him. No where did anyone say this, he just felt THEY felt that way. Thus he thinks college is worthless. As he's come out of the military and into the civilian market he's in a management role. He's somewhat limited by his lack of degree in regards to promotions. As he's attended training sessions for his job, some very high level, I ask him why he goes. He always responds with it's good training and he's learning a lot.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm quick to remind him that college is a lot like a class. Except you have papers. Have tests and time requirements. I've been in plenty of training classes where that wasn't true and few where it was. Most of college is about time management. </div><div><br></div><div>Bottom line is, having a college degree makes me no more better than the next guy. It does mean I suffered through (and it my case while working full time) and got my degree. It does mean I have extra training that a non-degree person has in the same field. And it can, potentially, make me better at what I do.</div><div><br></div><div>But you said "<span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">To me, the best leadership comes from the School of Hard Knocks and not a school such as UNC, UVA, UK etc...."  Certainly plenty of great leaders don't have college like </span><font color="#4d4d4d"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Alvin C. York, one of our most famous decorated military veterans. </span></font><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">But there are many who do like </span><span style="background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 17.265625px;">George Smith Patton, Jr. who attended VMI and West Point. Or </span><font color="#000000" face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 17.265625px;">Dwight D. Eisenhower another West Point graduate. </span></font><font color="#4d4d4d"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Don't confuse education with leadership. The old PLDC didn't make leaders, it helped give a toolbox to its students. You either are a leader or are not. Many officers are in leadership positions but can only manage their people NOT lead. This is true for NCO's as well. Don't base your judgement on a college education, base your judgement on the person. </span></font></div><div><br></div><div>I work with many upon many USCG enlisted members who have undergrad and graduate degrees. Many of whom are much smarter than me. For whatever reason they chose to be enlisted. Is this bad? Certainly not! We need smart people at every level. Their job is more field and user based, mine is more administrative and management based. No one is more important or more valuable per say, we're a team! I need them like they need me. Without them I most certainly will fail and without me, they'll probably struggle (pay, equipment, etc).</div><div><br></div><div>At some point many people get it....and by IT. I mean IT. That IT isn't about you but about the team. The mission. The organization. The officer/enlisted contention by some will always be out there, are you going to let it define you or are you going to define it? Get a degree for you. For you to set an example to your family, your children, your co-workers. Having a degree doesn't set you back, it puts you in the equation. Nowadays to be competitive you need a Masters degree. Never stop learning. That's where you'll certainly fail.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Nov 22 at 2013 6:05 PM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:05:09 -0500

A degree doesn't necessarily make a person a great leader, or a better person. It does however give a person a wider range of knowledge. The last General we've had that did not have a college degree was Chuck Yeager. I know many enlisted men who have a degree, but why does a person necessarily have to become an officer if they have a degree, Those enlisted mostly SNCOs chose to stay enlisted and provide guidance to their enlisted while remaining enlisted themselves. A degree is a great tool, but it isn't the end all be all to being a competent soldier or leader. With learned knowledge you need the experience to know how and when to apply that knowledge which we see as wisdom. SGT Victor J points out that his view is that the best leadership comes from Hard Knocks not out of the university system of this country. I think a combination of the two is what gives people not always the leadership that they want but the type that is needed.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 1:41 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 01:41:20 -0500

I think I've angered the E4 Mafia. To any persons who were offended by my above posts, I offer this advice. If you want to experience success in today's Army or any professional setting, you must self educate. As a professional, you are expected to grow beyond the point of being spoon fed information. As a junior enlisted soldier, E-4 especially, your goal should be to develop yourself into a leader so that you can advance in your career. A leader should have the ability to research and find the answers to their questions. My job as a leader is to train young soldiers to be self sufficient leaders, thus ensuring the betterment of our profession. If you, the offended soldier who voted down my posts, can get past your bruised ego, you will see the value in what I have told you. I'd rather teach you how to fish than feed you one meal.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 12:17 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 00:17:30 -0400

Helps you be prepared to deal with Power Points for months in class at OBC (now BOLC) and prepares you to write papers for the rest of the PME you will have to go through. I should rephrase and say if you are a good student and did well in writing then it will help you prepare and write papers for these classes better and be able to adapt to the long classes that you have to take notes in. In addition if you are a good writer it helps you with awards and evaluations when you have to write them. Otherwise it is all about how you use your college experience to see how you can react, cram, prioritize, and prepare yourself for what you expect and do not expect. If you got good practice in college you can take that and hopefully use it in your officer or enlisted career.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2014 1:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 13:00:12 -0400

No it does not. I have my degree and I worked with Company commanders who were smart and knew how to get the job done, but they were horrible officers, albeit they were getting out and they just didn't care because they already had a job lined up. Or because they were an officer and they thought were God's gift to the Army. Moreover, the ones that were horrible officers came from the military academies and not the JROTC programs

Response by MAJ Steve Sheridan made Apr 28 at 2014 1:17 PM

MAJ Steve Sheridan — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 13:17:40 -0400

A degree is just another tool in your Leadership tool bag. If you're a poor leader, then having a degree doesn't help.

If you're a good leader, having a degree will give you more knowledge that you can use to be even a better leader.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Apr 28 at 2014 1:22 PM

CW2 Jonathan Kantor — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 13:22:20 -0400

No. I have a degree. It means nothing to my military career. It's in history. I can discuss it with the Troops and bore them to death, but that's about all I get out of it. That, and I know how to use a semicolon.

We aren't made better because of a piece of paper. We are made better by our actions. A college degree is an education and that's not a bad thing to have... but it doesn't make a person a better Soldier.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 28 at 2014 1:23 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 13:23:37 -0400

To me, this kinda goes along the same lines as the now infamous discussion about how not scoring a 300 on your PT test means you are a bad leader. While having a degree can have it's benefits, much like maxing out your PT test, it doesn't mean you are any better than the NCO next to you without his/her. I didn't have my degree while serving in the Army and I successfully lead Soldiers through 4 deployments. Again, having the degree is nice and may add some tools to your leadership tool bag but it doesn't mean you'll be a great leader. It all comes down to how you do your duty as an NCO. The proof is in the pudding.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Apr 28 at 2014 2:11 PM

LTC Joseph Gross — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 14:11:10 -0400

Having a degree is just like having a high school diploma. It demonstrates that a person had the will to follow through on a large scale commitment. So it isn't that the degree makes you a better Soldier but rather that your better Soldiers are likely to put time into college work rather than X-Box and beer.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 11:22 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 11:22:00 -0500

A degree is just a hurdle required for commissioning. It doesn't make you a better leader. It shows you can push through 3 or 4 years and succeed. You can get some good classes on understanding human interaction, management processes an other tools, but that doesn't make you a leader. I would rather have a guy with a year in a BCT or a deployment, than a year in college any day. But..... the army doesn't completely agree with me.

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Aug 14 at 2015 6:29 PM

Maj Mike Sciales — Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:29:30 -0400

I don't think you can lead until you've been led. I came up through the ranks and I always thought I knew as much as any of them. Well my experience proved me wrong. A formal education and a degree show you've spent extensive time learning about your academic area of study. It shows discipline. Did taking a course in inferential and differential statistics make a difference in my career? No, not really, but it showed I had the capability to learn about such things which shows flexibility. Being a good officer is about using all of your life experiences to craft the best way forward. Every member of the DoD is supposed to already be a good soldier/airman/sailor/marine or they wouldn't remain in service so it is about winnowing, finding those people with that particular level of resolve. We look for the stellar performers who can overcome adversity to get to their goal. Just the way it is.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made May 1 at 2017 8:24 PM

SGT Suraj Dave — Mon, 01 May 2017 20:24:26 -0400

If you aren't a professional officer (Doctor, Lawyer, Nurse, Engineer, etc...), your job really doesn't require a degree. I wasn't ever an officer (obviously) but I did observe them a lot. I don't think doing layouts, writing memo's, making power points, and guest starring on patrol every once in a whole requires a degree. I think its just a way to keep the lower echelons of society from leading troops. Its a matter of feudalism. That was the reasoning the Romans, than medieval Europe (Both predecessors to all modern military formations on this earth) had. The peasants were the enlisted, the nobles were the officers. Its really not that different from today. Our enlisted go fight outside the wire, our officers sit in the TOC. Kind of like how the medieval/roman enlisted fought on the ground, but the medieval/roman officers sat in their castles.... Occasionally "Guest Starring" on patrol. Also, like back in the feudalistic days, the nobles/officers always had the best equipment. They had the shiniest swords and best armor available, while the peasants/enlisted who actually fight have little to no armor and usually poorly made weapons. I remember in my platoon, we had guys leaving the wire with no optics... but you see the S Shop OICs and other TOC officers all with ACOGs and every other attachment you could dream of on their M4.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 7 at 2019 8:17 AM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 08:17:52 -0400

Yes I do

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2020 12:56 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Jul 2020 12:56:25 -0400

Now, there's a loaded question!!!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2022 11:05 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 23:05:21 -0500

College is a scam. I have seen exceptional leaders with and without degrees.