Do you think it is OK to degrade or fellow service members for lesser accomplishments?

SGT Mitch McKinley — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 12:16:45 -0500

We have all heard it or said it. When a service member is in a unit and has not done/accomplished what most of the unit has, there is a derogatory phrase associated with them.

We can say it is time-honored tradition or good-natured ribbing, but at the end of the day it is done for no other reason than to belittle and make the SM feel he/she is a lesser soldier.

Prime example: when I arrived at Fort Bragg in 1998, I had not completed Airborne training. Therefore, I was a "leg". My 1SG would drop me everytime he saw me, because I hadn't yet gone to Airborne school. "Drop Leg."

When I went to PLDC in '99, I was leading PT one morning, and we were on a run. I started clling a cadence and asked where all the legs were at. My SGL jumped all over me. I was informed that we were no longer allowed to refer to them as Legs. They were now to be referred to as non-airborne personnel.

I spent 2 1/2 years in that unit, and was consistently belittled by other members of the company because I didn't have my wings. 1SG actually walked away from a conversation he and I were having because "he couldn't hear me with no wings on my chest." And this was in a training meeting. I was the training NCO.

In another thread on RP, a soldier with a deployment referred to an NCO who hadn't as a "slick-sleeved" SGT. There was no respect in the statement or the story.

So, all that was said to say: How is Esprit De Corps built when we have "time-honored" traditions of belittling SM's who don't have the same tabs, patches or wings?

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 9:57 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 09:57:45 -0500

It isn't.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 10:18 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 10:18:13 -0500

I've seen this multiple times in my short time in. I currently serve in ADA where I've seen people walked over and disrespected because they did not have Airborne, Air Assault or other tabs and patches. I currently have none of them but I do not believe that makes me or anyone else any less competent than those that have them. I'm a firm believer in the old saying "One Team, One Fight".

Response by SGT Mitch McKinley made Feb 21 at 2014 10:47 AM

SGT Mitch McKinley — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 10:47:16 -0500

Great responses.

And me personally, I was tired of being called a "Chairborne Ranger".

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 10:52 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 10:52:30 -0500

It never ok degrade a fellow service member or anyone for that matter for lesser accomplishments. It is unacceptable and shouldn't be tolerated anywhere.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 10:53 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 10:53:59 -0500

Never okay to degrade!<div><br></div><div>Im not getting all soft now on you, but where's the gain in doing so?</div><div><br></div><div>Most men have not been able to accomplish things in their career because they were in a unit and did not have those oppertunities.  Rarely do we see people avoiding deployments, saying no to PME, or training. </div>

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Feb 21 at 2014 12:06 PM

1SG Eric Rice — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 12:06:50 -0500

First and foremost it is not conducive for anyone to belittle or degrade SM's for what they have or have not accomplished. The opportunities may not have been there based on the unit or MOS the SM was in. That being said, there are things that are carried on through traditions that should remain and some that should not. In most cases it should be done out of good fun and not intentional belittlement. As far as being called a "Leg" in an Airborne unit because the SM has not completed Airborne School yet is ok in my opinion as long as it is not belittling the SM. The military as a whole is filled with titles for many things. As an NCO you should never turn your back on a SM just because they have not accomplished something as of yet. That is just bad leadership. If anything they should be encouraging the SM to achieve the desired accomplishment. Most of this is falling into the realm of "Political Correctness" which more often than not is a burden and people are afraid to speak. I am not implying that derogatory remarks should be commonplace by any means and should be avoided. In order to accomplish this all SM's regardless of rank must broaden their vocabulary so that they can communicate with each other without belittlement or degredation.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 1:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 13:55:54 -0500

It is never okay to degrade or demean another service-member, whether senior, equal or junior. Good-natured ribbing is okay as long as it's meant to motivate. If phrases are used to intentionally malign or degrade then it needs to stop.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 9:24 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 21:24:34 -0500

Ragging on Soldiers for doing or not doing something outside of their control isn't in the best of interest of the Command. A Soldier could have a legitimate reason as to why they were/aren't able to receive such awards/deployments/schools. In my honest opinion, someone who rags a Soldier for these types of things should grow up and mature a little. I say leave those training to folks who think they need them because they are insecure about themselves and they need something on their chest to fill important and worthwhile.

I for one have never received any training that you sew onto your uniform, however I made E-7 in 7 1/2 years by building a reputation that I can get anything done that is given to me.

As the Army and DoD begins to become more aware of things like this expect a message to be published address this. Similar to Soldiers not being allowed to smoke in the office now unlike in the past.

If I find out one of my Soldiers/NCOs is ragging on another Soldier for something outside of the Soldiers control then I deal with the offender and not the defender. It's not tolerated in my office and my Soldiers know this.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 10:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 22:58:29 -0500

Is it ok to degrade a soldier for lesser accomplishments? I think the answer to that is subjective based around organizational context and interpretation of the word "degrade."

In my opinion, there is a difference between malicious ridicule/hazing/belittlement and providing motivation to accomplish a task. This is where context comes into it. If you're in an airborne unit, and have not completed airborne school, then you have failed to live up to a unit expectation. Same for being in a ranger battalion and not being a graduate of ranger school. Same for a soldier in the 101st Airborne who has yet to graduate from air assault school. These are accomplishments expected of a soldier in their organization.

To me, I see nothing wrong with a NCO ranger in a ranger battalion who has earned their ranger tab to walk into a room of subordinate soldiers and say "if you're not ranger qualified then drop." Granted, it seems like I'm in the minority on this site in my beliefs, but I don't see this as degrading. I see this as providing motivation to live up to an organizations standards.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 12:37 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 12:37:58 -0500

I have deployed more than once... And I get degrade in this unit I'm in because I didn't deploy specifically with them, I'm just some new guy in this unit. It's super annoying and makes me seek better 'Esprit De Corp'

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2018 9:35 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:35:58 -0400

Yes, but only if they are from another service! Maybe not degrade but poke at someone you are buddies with or work with. We are all brother and sisters at arms. My daughter called my son a leg almost all summer last year. if your doing it to be hurtful then that doesn’t help esprit de corps it creates resentment. Calling a guy a leg you know will be going to school and are confident will pass is all in good fun.

Response by SFC James Welch made Sep 10 at 2018 12:09 PM

SFC James Welch — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 12:09:56 -0400

As time passes so do things that “used to be” especially in the Military. This is both good and bad. Some things show the Honor of the Unit which should be carried on. However, some things should cease to for example: One of my Uncles Joind the Army in 1939, just in time for WWII. In those days men worked much harder for a living than we do. Respect had to be earned the hard way. The way a unit selected their First Sergeant was to go behind the messhall and have a bare nuckle fist fight. The last man standing assumed the position. These men respected only force. Some were uneducated or with Little education. That method of selection was long past by the time I was drafted in 1966. However, my First Sergeant in Basic was a lean mean guy from the Kentucky Hills. He could have whipped every one in the Company( and his front teeth had been knocked out, fight?).