Do you think it's necessary to have a Ranger Tab, if you truly want to be effective and make a lasting difference in our organization?

2018-10-27T21:59:45-04:00

Edited for BLUF:

- Not that having the tab itself makes any difference, but that having what it takes to get the tab makes a difference, as does taking the lessons learned from the process into the future.

- If one wants to be great and do great things, then shouldn’t one work towards the highest goals, like Ranger school?

- Does it matter to you? Do you prefer leaders that are Ranger qualified or at the least have made the attempt?

- This discussion isn't narrowed to me. As with any question about Army culture, I think it's just as much about me as it is about what we develop in others, if not more so.

This is coming from the perspective that Ranger school is not a leadership school, but a direct test of leadership and leaves a soldier better off having achieved the standard. Though small team infantry tactics are not directly relevant to every branch, being mentally and physically tough and adaptable in the most demanding of situations is.

Anything is helpful, I welcome the discussion. Please take a minute to scroll through everyone's comments.

(Currently in ROTC)

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I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts. RallyPoint is known for its crass comments, personally I embrace this. But, I often push for reflective statements and digging deeper too. The following is what I believe to be the best perspective to take when entering this discussion. It was not getting enough traffic down below in my opinion, so I posted it here:

"In short, both Soldiers and their families place a great deal of trust in the Army to provide their sons and daughters with the most highly skilled and well trained leaders possible. I take the responsibility very seriously and pursue every possible educational opportunity the military is willing to provide to gain knowledge and hopefully become a better leader in the process. Regardless if its EO, SHARP, MRT, Ranger School or Master Gunner I always aim to sharpen my skills as a combat Leader and hopefully increase the probability of bringing everyone home from whatever conflict In find myself in next. If the Army refers to Ranger school as its premier leadership course, I would take it as a personal responsibility to go, regardless of MOS. A war will come when even S1 will be forced to close their laptops, pick up a rifle and fight. If there is a .01% chance that any 62 day course will help keep my Joes alive, sign me up, its a small price to pay. Flag me down the next time we meet and I'll give you some insight to the real lessons you will learn in Ranger school, the brush up on tactics was just a bonus."

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Oct 27 at 2018 10:06 PM

2018-10-27T22:06:54-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member I do have a problem
imagining a 68W Healthcare Specialist, ‘leading the way’.

Doing a better job than your peers will you set you apart. Continuing to do so as you are noticed and given more challenging tasks will provide all of the opportunity you need to be successful.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2018 10:10 PM

2018-10-27T22:10:20-04:00

You are over analyzing the shit out of this. Will it help your career, yes. Will it hurt if you don't, no. It's up to you how far you want to excel in your career, so grab it by the horns or don't.
Fair warning though, if you achieve the standard and get the tab, you will be expected to maintain that standard at all times. Anyone can be tab wearer, the hard part is being a tab bearer.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2018 10:39 PM

2018-10-27T22:39:13-04:00

If you have the chance to go, then go. Once you have your tab you'll realize the doors it will open. Sure, you can absolutely be an effective leader without it and having it doesn't make you a leader.

Response by CPT Ray Gilmore made Oct 27 at 2018 11:05 PM

2018-10-27T23:05:03-04:00

(1) You sound like a Caditiot..... take no offense by it.... it simply means your rambling.......I stopped reading halfway through your 2nd paragraph.

(2) Learn how to be brief and direct, before pinning on that butter bar.....regardless of the branch you are assigned to.

(3) "The Tab" is a $0.49 piece of cloth. The lessons you learn about yourself in the process of Earning that Tab, are immeasurable....... but that piece of cloth only buys you 2-minutes of respect when you walk into the room..... that's it.

Once you open your mouth, tab or no tab, if you're a dub...... the room will know.

RLTW

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2018 12:37 AM

2018-10-28T00:37:51-04:00

To be honest I didn’t very far down the rambling. But having a tab means you have a tab. Don’t overthink it. It’s a leadership school. There are plenty of leaders without a tab. You don’t need a tab to be effective in our organization.

Response by Nicci Eisenhauer made Oct 28 at 2018 1:54 AM

2018-10-28T01:54:08-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member I'm a civilian and always have been, however, as military and LEO family (of commanders in both spheres) and as a business owner, I can tell you this: especially in the military, there is little room for nonprformance and very few (if any) non-essential MOS's. Hence, this means that no matter your rank, YOU are NECESSARY. In fact, in the military and the LEO and other Civil service positions, you might have a little more wiggle room to be mediocre or actually lousy at your job before getting sacked (if at all, ever). The expectation is that you do your NECESSARY role to the utmost best of your ability, and then, as a leader -- wherever you land -- remember that your command's role is essential and you must convey that if you expect the excellence you strove for as a new recruit. In the civilian workplace, we will sack you -- you're essential even if you scrub toilets, and since that is a miserable job, those who do it and manage to make ends meet deserve everyone's respect. If you make it all the way to Chairman of the OCJCS, always keep in mind what being at the bottom of the totem pole was like. Remember what motivated and inspired you, study, study, STUDY the leadership style whom you most respect... and seek to be that person yourself. Devalue no one and you elevate your own value immensely.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Oct 28 at 2018 7:26 AM

2018-10-28T07:26:54-04:00

If your goal is be effective and make a lasting difference then no a Ranger tab is not needed. You don't need any number of tabs, skill badges etc to be effective and make a difference. You do that by being the best soldier that you can be, giving the best service you can and constantly seek to improve upon the service you give and the impression you leave.

The tab, ANY tab is just a physical representation, a reminder than you went through whatever to get it. It does not mean that soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen that do not have it are lesser for not having it.

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made Oct 28 at 2018 9:08 AM

2018-10-28T09:08:58-04:00

Once you get out it makes no difference so to me it was a simple decision!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2018 9:34 AM

2018-10-28T09:34:33-04:00

It really depends what you’re planning to. If you’re an infantry officer should you eventually get the Ranger tab? Probably. If you’re like me and are studying to be a doctor? Not really important.

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made Oct 28 at 2018 10:05 AM

2018-10-28T10:05:44-04:00

Just go

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Oct 28 at 2018 10:11 AM

2018-10-28T10:11:05-04:00

Use your senior NCOs as guide they have a wealth of knowledge from having been there and done that, pic the brains and learn from them an NCO that has been around for a long time and with alot of experience can really be your best mentor and help guide you to being a great officer, listen to your NCOs and keep an open mind to what they have to say and then make your decisions, remember you can lead a horse to water but the horse ultimately has to make the decision to drink. I'm an old school soldier and so the army old school slogan still applies all the time " Be all you can be " and it ultimately your responsibility to listen to your NCOs advice and counsel and use or not but it is you who makes your own destiny your decisions and actions.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 28 at 2018 10:24 AM

2018-10-28T10:24:24-04:00

1. It is possible the ultimate leadership test outside actual combat. You are rotated thru leadership positions with no notice while sleep deprived, hungry, worn out, etc. If you make to the tab ceremony, you have shown you can effective lead thru terrible conditions anywhere.

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Oct 28 at 2018 1:29 PM

2018-10-28T13:29:30-04:00

Ranger School is a good soldier school. As a leadership school or test of leadership, I find it poor. I've known far too many lousy leaders with the Tab.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2018 8:07 PM

2018-10-28T20:07:13-04:00

I am going with being the devil's advocate on this one, and hope it does offer some perspective.
Your premise statement can be considered rude and small minded. To make the statement that only someone with a ranger tab can make a lasting effect on the Army is obtuse. Just as an example here are two great Army Aviators who had immense influence on the world not just the Organization James Doolittle and Charles Lindbergh. Inter and Intra-Service biases set aside; it takes the organization as a whole to complete the mission. Whether it be Army and Marines, Grunt and POG, Infantry and Wing everyone makes a difference and anyone can have a lasting effect.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2018 9:02 PM

2018-10-28T21:02:46-04:00

What you learn about how you perform when you are tired, hungry and under the gun, and more importantly, what you learn about how others perform when they are tired, hungry and under the gun are the most important lessons you take away from that school that will help you throughout your career, regardless of branch or position.

Completing the course will also make you more competitive for those positions where you can make a greater impact on Soldiers.
And yes, regardless of where you go, you will deal with people that give people with Ranger tabs the benefit of the doubt that they do not give others.

Response by TSgt Carl Johnson made Oct 29 at 2018 3:38 AM

2018-10-29T03:38:28-04:00

Other than being assigned to a Ranger battalion, I thought the purpose of sending a soldier to Ranger school was to have someone who could teach those skills to others in his unit, not just so they could be identified as "special." That is what I was told when I was a TACP assigned to the 1st CAV Div., back in the '80s. That is how we used our personnel when we sent them to special schools, such as JOTC, Ranger school, HALO, etc.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Oct 29 at 2018 4:44 PM

2018-10-29T16:44:13-04:00

When I went to Ranger School I learned more about myself than about the Army.

Response by SSG Timothy Stevenson made Oct 30 at 2018 6:41 AM

2018-10-30T06:41:37-04:00

I always looked at soldiers who had a tab as one who would not quit. Whith that being said it does not make a leader.
I had my tab as a service Soldier and did my best to lead as I was taught. do what’s right for you.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Oct 30 at 2018 9:33 PM

2018-10-30T21:33:43-04:00

I served during and after Vietnam as an NCO. Turned down direct appointment to West Point and going to OCS because the officers who had combat experience were riffed unless they were the Boys from Hudson High, as my XO referred to them. (He was one). The newer officers were arrogant to the point of telling us they would have won the war in Vietnam because they knew how to fight. Nuff said. A lot of them had Ranger tabs. I did not trust them to lead a ring around the bathtub. Incompetent in the field with failures in the annual tests, dysfunctional by holding Article 15 contests and destroying morale for no good reason, and my CO's police report was sent to me by the Brigade Legal Clerk where he got drunk, went to his girlfriend's place, knocked down her door and roughed her up. Class act. Not all of them were bad by any stretch - there were a number of good officers I would follow without question. The point is this - each person you run into has heir own reasons for doing what they do. Yes, there are excellent reasons to go through Ranger training. But that does not a leader make. That is incumbent on you. Are you willing to listen to your NCO's and mentoring officers? Can you tell the difference? Can you stow your ego and learn how to become a good leader? Those skills are different. Not everyone needs to have a Ranger tab. And just because you have one does not mean anything more than you completed the course. What you do with it is up to you.

Response by CPL Brian Prosser made Nov 1 at 2018 11:23 AM

2018-11-01T11:23:57-04:00

My opinion is somewhat different than the others. If you are going to an Infantry unit then Ranger school is one of the things you need. As a butter bar, it shows the soldiers that you can accomplish difficult task under pressure. As for being a leader, Ranger school allows you to be in the PSG and PL positions (at least it did in the early 90s). Learning to push yourself to the end and beyond is all about who you are. It is something that an new LT should know. The commraderie that you will build with the guys you're there with is outstanding. I was light Infantry and 95% of our officers and NCOs were Ranger qualified, if they didnt have one they were POGs

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 3:25 PM

2018-11-14T15:25:44-05:00

Recently, I got the best insight yet and I felt that it needs to be shared:

"In short, both Soldiers and their families place a great deal of trust in the Army to provide their sons and daughters with the most highly skilled and well trained leaders possible. I take the responsibility very seriously and pursue every possible educational opportunity the military is willing to provide to gain knowledge and hopefully become a better leader in the process. Regardless if its EO, SHARP, MRT, Ranger School or Master Gunner I always aim to sharpen my skills as a combat Leader and hopefully increase the probability of bringing everyone home from whatever conflict In find myself in next. If the Army refers to Ranger school as its premier leadership course, I would take it as a personal responsibility to go, regardless of MOS. A war will come when even S1 will be forced to close their laptops, pick up a rifle and fight. If there is a .01% chance that any 62 day course will help keep my Joes alive, sign me up, its a small price to pay. Flag me down the next time we meet and I'll give you some insight to the real lessons you will learn in Ranger school, the brush up on tactics was just a bonus."

Let me know what you think.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2018 8:46 AM

2018-11-16T08:46:11-05:00

One does not need a tab to be an effective leader. That is akin to saying a beret makes one a better Soldier. Witnessed countless fantastic leaders both NCO and Officer who never went thru the Ranger course throughout my career. Sure, like any school it looks good come promotion time, but as an officer if you can't via your own abilities inspire your troops to excel and feel that by not doing so they will let the whole unit down than a school or tab won't solve it. Think about it: Did Eisenhower, Marshall, Patton, Bradley, MacArthur, McAuliff and countless other nameless officers during WWII have Ranger tabs? And look what they did.

Response by SGT Walter Lester made Nov 25 at 2018 7:29 PM

2018-11-25T19:29:24-05:00

That Ranger tab and $1.50 or more will get you a cup of coffee unless you wear it to the mess hall. The tab doesn't and never did impress me especially in Vietnam. No matter what you wear doesn't matter when it comes to what you know and how to use that knowledge. It is hard to get and a lot of work goes into it.I know first hand.I went through an NCO school for 26 weeks for 51H40 construction supervisor. I earned my SGT stripes and the Drill SGT pin for it,but it didn't go to my head,it just gave me a one way ticket to Vietnam. I did use what I learned to do my job,and lead 9 men in my SQD to a safe passage back home. If you earn the Ranger tab be sure and use what you learn from it.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Nov 25 at 2018 8:08 PM

2018-11-25T20:08:09-05:00

My recruiter wanted me to go to Officer Candidate School. I was 17 and a half. I had not graduated from high school. This was 1966. My AFB score was GT score was 111. My foreign aptitude score was 25. I declined. I took the GED in Weisbaden Germany and passed. My battalion commander at Fort Ord California was LTC Ronald V. Hite. Ranger, Captain in Vietnam. ROTC East Tennessee state. He retired as a three star. Listen to CPT Ray Giilmore. I Retired as a CW4. Craig Urban US Army Retired.

Response by LTC Patrick Turner made Nov 25 at 2018 8:23 PM

2018-11-25T20:23:36-05:00

Everyone responds positively to leadership and example. From time immemorial, armed forces of every culture and nation, that are successful in the force of arms, has great leaders. Many icons in our military are visual and attainment of a Ranger tab is one of them. Having earned it over 45 years ago, it instilled an ethos in me that remains to this day. More importantly, my subordinates in the past have told me on many occasions how example and leadership impacted them and THAT impacted me. Flags motivated Civil War soldiers greatly because war is really about small unit actions at the end of the day. Yes, we are a modern force with fantastic technology at our fingertips but NOTHING is accomplished unless a qualified leader directs it and Soldiers understand that.

Response by SFC Ron Gitzendanner made Nov 27 at 2018 1:47 AM

2018-11-27T01:47:21-05:00

Not sure I understand the question....but if I went thru Ranger School and graduated, Hell Yes, I would have the tab, and wear it proudly. Why Not?? You earned and accomplished something damned few people in this country can!! Now sure, you will learn a whole lot of other stuff, especially about yourself, that is not represented by a piece of cloth or a medal. But, they made the cloth (tab), you get authorized to wear it, be proud and just sew it on!!!! Maybe I am missing something here.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2018 12:42 PM

2018-12-03T12:42:32-05:00

This is a very controversial topic.

There are some that will want to see a tab on your shoulder). Other (typically those that don't have one) won't care.

The value of Ranger school is not what you learn, but what that piece of clothing says about your mental fortitude. Caveat: once you have one YOU will always be held to a higher, standard, if you don't you're just a shitbag with a tab.

That said:
Do not, not go, make every attempt to get one. It will set you apart during boards, etc. It's only 60 days...

Response by CPT Vance Walden made Dec 3 at 2018 3:38 PM

2018-12-03T15:38:30-05:00

When I graduated out of West Point in 77 and entered Infantry Officer Basic, I considered Ranger School afterwards an essential part of my training to help me be a more effective small unit leader, team player and enhance my self confidence. My question to anyone serious about being the best at our profession, why would you not want to include this in your training? The manner in which you raised the question leads me to believe you are looking for any reason to NOT attend Ranger school. Stop rationalizing and get serious about being the absolute best you can be as an effective leader. Keeping it real.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Dec 4 at 2018 8:28 AM

2018-12-04T08:28:38-05:00

NO. You don't need a ranger tab. I new an officer in my first unit who did have a Ranger Tab, and was later forced out the Army for damaging government property(OH-58).

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2018 9:01 PM

2018-12-13T21:01:39-05:00

To each it’s own with this. You want the training go to the school if not don’t worry about it good grief..

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Jan 8 at 2019 11:22 AM

2019-01-08T11:22:25-05:00

I don't think having a ranger tab is pertinent, being a Marine is enough...…… :)

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Jan 10 at 2019 1:48 PM

2019-01-10T13:48:00-05:00

No. Not necessary at all. What is necessary and to be an effective leader that makes a lasting difference in my time was limiting your alcohol consumption and maintaining a clean profile. In Artillery, very few Rangers. I only met maybe two who had the Ranger patch, a few jumpers from previous posts, and no Special Forces tabs whatsoever in the one unit I served in. One of my drill sergeants, however, was ex-SF/Green Beret).

The best leaders were the ones who showed up, made sure the stuff his or her troops did not particularly want to do got done, and then go home to their families when the day is over, instead of drinking with his or her troops after hours, getting plastered, and then taking it out on his or her own troops. I have had that leadership too.

If you want to leave a lasting impression, learn to be reliable and make a good presence.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2019 8:09 PM

2019-01-13T20:09:23-05:00

No.

Will it help? Yes.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Feb 17 at 2019 5:15 PM

2019-02-17T17:15:36-05:00

To be honest you have to go back to 1943 and WW2. The Army had trouble keeping infantry soldiers and they wanted to make them feel special. This is how they got their blue cords, disks and the CIB. All Army Schools are important. I wanted people who have an advance knowledge of food and field sanitation so my soldiers didn’t get sick and or die. No Tab for this school. The Ranger Tab is just a price of cloth that says you completed a school. It just happens that it’s primarily an Infantry based school. 2+2=4

Response by SPC Kurtis Bower made Feb 20 at 2019 2:59 PM

2019-02-20T14:59:08-05:00

Leadership is subjective and definitely not always objective. Ethics and morals are meant to be objective. Some of the best leaders I had were not Rangers, but highly organized individuals who cared deeply for their people. A lot of my experiences led me to believe that your first line leader was often your guidance counselor since when you're deployed or in the field a lot. You do not have a lot of time at home. You need to have someone you can vent your troubles to and there's nothing that says it has be a Ranger.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2019 3:47 PM

2019-02-20T15:47:22-05:00

There are plenty of other schools and jobs that "test ones metal". Does ranger matter for Finance McGee? Not at all. Most jobs have a "premier" school. RSLC, SOCM, Sapper, Ranger they are meant for specific jobs. Ranger is important for CMF 11, maybe if less other jobs went wed have more G qualified infantrymen, rather than having a gun bunny with his precious tab. Go to the courses that make your specific job better. Its a team fight, mind your part of the team and let others mind theirs.
As a 19D and a 38B. Ranger doesnt really matter, but Sapper and RSLC do, so those are on my list.