Do you think NCO leadership is the same as it was 10-15 years ago?

2016-06-29T08:32:37-04:00

I think that a lot of issues that we deal with today could of been resolved if our leadership skills were better.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 8:37 AM

2016-06-29T08:37:28-04:00

I am glad I served when I did. I think the folks today have a more difficult group to work with.

Biggest problem I encountered were those who joined the Air Force to avoid being drafted into the Army. Today you have to deal with those who think you owe them the world from day one.

Of course my time was even longer ago. Been 41 years since discharge from active duty.

Response by SGT Edward Wilcox made Jun 29 at 2016 8:41 AM

2016-06-29T08:41:59-04:00

No, Not even close. Then, all NCO's were treated with a little respect, even Corporals. Now, after 10 years of promoting anyone with a packet, Junior NCO's are treated as little more than Privates with a lot of time in. Hopefully, this will turn around in the near future. Of course, this is only an Army perspective.

Response by MAJ Mark Wilson made Jun 29 at 2016 8:48 AM

2016-06-29T08:48:53-04:00

These young NCOs need to be allowed to lead, and part of that is making mistakes. Checking rooms in the barracks before PT, leading PT, trusted with vehicle maintenance, etc. Too many leaders take the "my way or the highway" route which undermines initiative and creativity. I realized I didn't need a bunch of me(s) walking around and that the 90% solution was great. Soon I would ask about something only to be told it was already done. Leaders up the chain have to be able to underwrite their juniors mistakes. That being said don't confuse mistakes with conspiracies.

Response by Sgt Tom Cunnally made Jun 29 at 2016 9:12 AM

2016-06-29T09:12:44-04:00

How about 60 years ago (1950s)...??

NCOs back in the day you were given responsibility for a Squad, Section or Platoon when you were only a teenager & a few months out of high school. But there were excellent NCO Leadership Schools and on the job training with feedback from those who were both above and below your rank level.
I always thought the best NCO rank was an E-4 but was not too happy with the pay. To be an E-4 was a great start to go higher in the enlisted ranks or OCS if one worked hard at honing their leadership skills, communication skills, and MOS expertise. Hard work is often seen by superiors who will then begin to take notice for meritorious promotions or more challenges that help one to grow in their military fields
Anyhow I thought some here may be interested about being an NCO in the '50s..& earning @$1450.00 base pay per year.. But only a few of us cared about our pay scale in those days but I did because I had a used car that kept me broke most of the time.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2016 9:13 AM

2016-06-29T09:13:01-04:00

It is a lot harder to be a good leader these days. The touchy-feely, PC indoctrination has come to the Army. Starting in AIT, new Soldiers are handled with kid gloves, as they are told that if they get their feelings hurt, they can report their instructors and leaders to the Brigade Commander. While at ALC, one of my instructors said that the new Soldiers (IET) have ALL the power in AIT. We NCOs were told to leave the AIT kids alone, don't even make on the spot corrections unless they are making a spectacle of themselves, and even then be mindful of their feelings. With the deck stacked against us like that, instilling and maintaining discipline gets tougher and tougher.

So these kids have no discipline and a sense of entitlement when they get to their first units. Just this morning, I saw two young Soldiers fall out of a formation run, and their NCO told them to get back in formation. They stood around and did nothing. The NCO told them to start pushing. They stood around and did nothing. Finally, the NCO told them to get in the front leaning rest until the formation looped back around to collect them. Only one of the two did it. No discipline.

The only thing we can do is put it on paper (4856). But they know the system too. They know that as long as they don't do the same offense three times, they are good. After 30 days, you do the follow-up counseling and if they kept their noses clean with regard to THAT offense, they are good unless they do the same thing again later. They know all this. So counseling doesn't always work.

The "Old School" Senior NCOs tell you to crush them, but we can't do that anymore, as feelings get hurt and the next thing you know you are standing in front of your BN or BDE commander explaining why you hurt PVT Snuffy's delicate feelings. There is no more "crushing in place." At least not in any unit I have been in in the last 9+ years. The only people who talk tough are the ones who do not have to directly deal with undisciplined Soldiers.

Response by SGT David T. made Jun 29 at 2016 9:40 AM

2016-06-29T09:40:04-04:00

I think the rapid promotions combined with the zero fail mentality and the stripping of NCO authority by the officers exerting direct control of things have eroded the quality of the NCO corps. I literally could take no action unless the officers gave me permission to do so. It was very frustrating. By the time I got out, I had pretty much given up. This was a major factor in my decision to ETS.

Response by SSG Roderick Smith made Jun 29 at 2016 10:04 AM

2016-06-29T10:04:58-04:00

It's much harder now to effect the kind of change you could just 15 years ago. Leaders handcuffing NCOs, combined with the mindset of newer generations, has made it difficult to be the kind of leader so many want to be, based on their own military upbringings.

But as NCOs, we should spend less time lamenting over past times, and more time finding ways to adapt to these changes. That's the bottom line. If we don't adapt, we will fail. I think that you are absolutely correct when you say that our leadership skills need to be better.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Jun 29 at 2016 10:44 AM

2016-06-29T10:44:07-04:00

NO !

Response by SSG Michael Hale made Jun 29 at 2016 4:18 PM

2016-06-29T16:18:08-04:00

Not at all, back in the days a Corporal had respect. These new soldiers have no respect for E-7/ SFC

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jun 29 at 2016 11:31 PM

2016-06-29T23:31:28-04:00

I was told by my son that the NCO'S of day are very relaxed and they are scared to make a person do something because to busy being there friend.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2016 12:28 AM

2016-06-30T00:28:16-04:00

Absolutely not! Has everyone not heard that it is a kinder more gentle Army now days. The Chain of Command expects the NCO's to handle their Soldier's but gives them nothing but a piece of paper and a threat of extra duty or discharge if the behavior continues to happen. In my last unit I had to call my Soldier every morning to make sure he was awake before formation because he had difficulty being to formation on time. I counseled him multiple times on the issue and asked if he needed to see a doctor...he just stayed up to late and didn't wake up in time. Lazy...CSM told me it was MY responsibility to ensure he made it on time from now on and if I had to go to his room every morning and wake him up that was fine with him...what the heck is that? My NCO's smoked the crap out of me for me being late one time and I have to say it didn't happen again...they each took turns. Was it embarrassing, yes! Did it suck? Yes! Did I learn from it? Yes!!!

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jun 30 at 2016 6:00 PM

2016-06-30T18:00:50-04:00

No, but the military culture shifts every 10 or 15 years. I saw many changes during my 30+. Remember we take an oath to uphold the laws of those appointed over us-when we cannot we retire or ETS.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Jul 5 at 2016 6:28 AM

2016-07-05T06:28:38-04:00

I have been out for 20 years now, so to answer this question is impossible and be accurate. I will go on record that any problems in the military can be fixed if E-6- E-9 will do there job to the best of their ability and forgo the politics. E-9 and E-8 keep the officers from messing up policy and enforce E-6 and E-7 to keep the mission rolling. E-6 and E-7 make things happen or not. If the Senior NCO's are doing their job, officers will gain respect and put trust and authority in them in most cases.

Response by SFC Gary Brown made Jul 5 at 2016 8:13 AM

2016-07-05T08:13:49-04:00

SSG P I agree with you and things will not get any better as long as the current SMA is in the seat. Until we have leaders who understand the true meaning of leadership our forces will continue to suffer. Soldiers will maintain the mind set of entitlement. Reducing an experienced force by changing the RCP and not promoting those who truly deserve to be promoted in my opinion is a dishonor to the NCO creed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 8:14 AM

2016-07-05T08:14:21-04:00

I feel that because of Iraq and Afghanistan the soldiers and leaders of today are not the same as 10 or 15 years ago. I joined during Desert Storm and it was the same thing. Alot of people make in NCO positions because of us being at War, over time they slow down the promotion process and started to evaluate NCOs and leadership. We will soon get back to that with us going away from being at War. Currently I feel they promote too soon and too early soldiers who've never held a leadership role or position once this is seen they will reevaluate. We have seen this even with our NCO leadership courses in the past year.

Response by CSM Steve Slocum made Jul 5 at 2016 8:47 AM

2016-07-05T08:47:31-04:00

No, the NCO Corps has lost its way along with our senior GOs. The GOs have crawled under the Obama tent and allowed our Army to continue its downward slide. Case in point, Bergdahl CM should have been completed over a year ago but due to GEN Milley and other like him they have allowed this CM to be deferred now for over two years and it looks as though they will delay until Obama leaves office.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 9:10 AM

2016-07-05T09:10:07-04:00

Leaders of today are not prepared to lead. We have spent so much time concentrating on our wartime mission that everything else fell by the wayside. Being a leader is all encompassing, it's not just the ability to lead on the battlefield. Soldiers are more than just dummies that follow orders. Leaders take care of family issues, know the regulations to assist a soldier, know the office or program that will offer assistance. Correctly counsel soldiers on LIFE as well as work. Trains the Soldiers. A leader is someone that the soldiers know they can trust, not because they are friends, but because the leader knows what they are doing. Nowadays it's easier to pass the responsibility off to someone else, and make excuses. When I first got promoted we had a saying, NCOs stick together. What that meant was that we help each other, we teach each other and when a soldier complained that another NCO told them to do something we asked if they did it, not said don't worry about it, he can get one of his soldiers to do it. Leaders today are promoted to fast and aren't ready for the responsibility of being a leader, because they are not trained by leaders. When new training comes around and it's train the trainer course why do we send privates and specialists instead of NCOs? As a PSG I want to know everything about that subject before I allow the soldiers to give a class so I can make sure it's right. How can I do that if I don't know anything about the subject matter? Where do you think the term subject matter expert came from? Leaders have become too complacent and happy with the status quo, so long as they get paid they are happy. No one cares about actually taking care of Soldiers, they care about themselves.

Response by SSG Michael Keohane made Jul 5 at 2016 9:19 AM

2016-07-05T09:19:06-04:00

I was a NCO in the 1960's - S/Sgt and was in a Plt Sgt position. The Viet-Nam War made many changes in the Army. One very bad change was in the "institutional knowledge" of the NCO corps. It took years after Viet-Nam for the NCO Corps, as a whole, to regain or re-develop that knowledge and, in some instances, that prior "institutional knowledge" has been forever lost. I am still in touch with current AD NCOs and notice what has been lost.

Response by CSM Kevin Nolan made Jul 5 at 2016 9:47 AM

2016-07-05T09:47:39-04:00

No I do not! I just retired after 31 years and believe me 15 years ago before all the Combat tours the NCO Corps was definitely not the same. Today's young NCOs ore smart, agile and well read. They must adapt to a constantly changing Army that uses and relies upon technology to be more agile and lethal then ever, the NCOs of today must adapt to this and still provide that leadership to their young Soldiers. We expect them to balance Family life, Personal goals (education and promotion), spiritual goals and Social Goals equally well; all while leading America's most prized possessions....Our Sons and Daughters. All this is quite daunting and moves at 100 mph. Of course we fail sometimes, but do not blame what you see as "wrong" in the Army on the NCOs, we simply execute.

abn
v/r
Kevin P. Nolan
CSM(ret), USA

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 9:50 AM

2016-07-05T09:50:18-04:00

NCO leadership no has been too pussified. My initial enlistment was August of 1990. I have seen a lot of changes. Some good. Some not so much. The NCOs hands have been essentially tied by political correctness

Response by GySgt William C. White made Jul 5 at 2016 9:56 AM

2016-07-05T09:56:52-04:00

I do not think leadership is the same today as it was 10 to 15 years ago. There is to many restrictions of what we can and can not do today. There is many traditions that help developed us to be the NCO's that we needed to be that are being called hazing today. I believe that the military is not for the soft feely and the civilians should stay out of the militaries business.

Response by SSG Chad Carruth made Jul 5 at 2016 9:59 AM

2016-07-05T09:59:06-04:00

Leadership courses have been on the decline for years. PLDC or WLC or whatever they call it now is a joke. PLDC was a great leadership course 10 years ago! I don't even agree with basic training anymore. They are just turning out piss poor privates!!

Response by MSgt Msgtroy Foster made Jul 5 at 2016 9:59 AM

2016-07-05T09:59:18-04:00

No it isn't the same. One big reason is the moral decay in our society has infiltrated our military establishment. I could not in good conscience serve in an immoral military force.

Response by SGT Gary Sokol made Jul 5 at 2016 10:00 AM

2016-07-05T10:00:53-04:00

I was in the PX one day, and heard a SGT complaining. He was obviously overweight, and he said, "I'm tired of being an E-5. E-5 is the new E-4." I don't know what kind of soldier or NCO he was, but just looking at him, and hearing what he said really summed up the problem that I have seen with NCO development.

Response by SGT Paul von Nahme made Jul 5 at 2016 10:05 AM

2016-07-05T10:05:14-04:00

As an NCO that returned to service in 2004 after a 15 year break in service, I think I have a unique perspective here.
While I can't Speak for the other services, as their leadership dynamics are vastly different, I believe my beloved Army is Leadership Paralyzed and Defunct because of administrative, meaningless minutia. Being a leader was better before computers and the internet. And it's created a worthless sector and budgetary black-hole for the people contracted to create the nonsense the NCO Corps is now overburdened by.
Combine this with Officers' now only means of making a name for themselves is strict adherence to this crap, not rocking their OER boat, and CSMs more concerned with being their BC's friend than his Senior NCO. Also the DoD, Congress and senior leadership, continue to make budget cuts with the path of least resistance...SMs and their families. Because soldiers aren't built in 26 different congressional districts. We used to fix good soldiers that made mistakes. Because what 18-21 yo doesn't screw up? Now, screwing up is the easiest way to get rid of the next "budget cut". Think of the resource(the training, the potential, THE EXPERIENCE) you are losing, simply because they want an easy metric for force reduction. It was a common joke you had to have at least two DWIs to make CSM. How do you think their peers view you after that? Impotent, that's how. Even if you truly care about them, it's meaningless if you aren't seen as someone that can fight for them.
That's my two cents.

Response by PO2 Gerry Tandberg made Jul 5 at 2016 10:10 AM

2016-07-05T10:10:57-04:00

I can't answer that because I've been separaed more than 15 years. However, I'd like to believe not much has changed in the long run. One of the reasons I like RallyPoint is I get a military perspective, and the responses I read are well thoughtout and the majority are better informed than my shipmates of the past. However, I've matured considerably over this time, and I'm far more engaged in the political process than when I served. I'm now a student of history and my responses reflect my current understanding. The one overwhelming difference I see in today's military is a broader ethnic mix and more women serving. I also believe it is vital to give an NCO responsibilities to so they can develope better leadership skills. I also believe you earn the privlege to be given responsiblities and all promotions should be based soley on your abilities and not your ethnicity or gender. To do otherwise would be counter productive, and this is one of my primary concerns.

Response by SGT Joseph Shakespeare made Jul 5 at 2016 10:11 AM

2016-07-05T10:11:39-04:00

Today's NCO'S do have power we had 15 years . They always have look over there back if the make a,decision. And sometimes the chain of command make it worst by not standing behind them.

Response by SCPO Lonny Randolph made Jul 5 at 2016 10:16 AM

2016-07-05T10:16:36-04:00

I cannot speak for the Army/Air Force/Marine Corp/USCG, being retired Navy, but I can speak concerning the Navy. Over the years I have definitely seen a loss in leadership skills and in what it is perceived the Chief Petty Officer can, can't and won't do. The Officer community in my view spends entirely too much time trying to do the Chief's job - without the traditional Chief's skills - and the Chiefs these days seem a little too concerned with career and not quite concerned with their traditional role.
When I retired there was a tacit agreement between the Wardroom and the Goat Locker, the Wardroom promulgates targets and the Goat Locker gets it done - however it needs to get done. Things got complicated when one had to deal with a difficult young personality within the framework of EMI guidelines and such but a Chief with imagination could find ways to make the EMI both educational and - ahem - motivating. A Chief couldn't take away a challenged sailor's liberty, but he could discover that a task needed to be done that very evening and only the challenged sailor's skill set would do... In my day the Skipper understood this and let his Argus eye rest on other things, while his ears failed to hear the wailing of the trainee in the lazarette.
When the Wardroom sticks to doing it's job and the Goat Locker takes care of the deck plates the Navy wins, when the two try to swap and intermingle jobs everyone looses. I suspect the other services have the same issues... I have often thought that the Navy ought to offer us old retired duffers a chance to come back for two weeks every year and take a short cruise in the Goat Locker as a sort of refresher course on "Old Navy" Leadership skills...

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Jul 5 at 2016 10:17 AM

2016-07-05T10:17:33-04:00

I don't believe the issue is Leadership, today's NCO's and Officers are sharper than ever. The problem is rules and regulations always changing even when something is still working and not broke. Think about all of the things now in place that wouldn't have happened 15 or more years ago, politics is the major problems why our military Leadership is what it is today.

Response by CSM Joe Callahan made Jul 5 at 2016 10:31 AM

2016-07-05T10:31:10-04:00

Ok, from a 30 year veteran, 26 years in the 7th Special Forces Group (ABN). My opinion on this is absolutely NO!!! I still have very close ties with the SF community and airborne units. Recently a soldier explained to me his senior NCO leader is a transgender and he does not feel the individual has the mental capacity to resolve his issue.
My opinion on this: How can an individual that can not even decide WTF they are have the moral conviction to number 1: administer "Good Order and Discipline", number 2: provide sound advice on moral conduct befitting the armed services. This also applies to officers. Just this one soldiers problems are now going un-solved based on the immoral conduct of his immediate supervisor. Given the fact the US Military is founded on moral conduct established by American Christian Faith. It is our "moral compass" an inner voice telling us practicing homosexuality, transgender etc, in the ranks is NOT conducive to "Good Order and Discipline" the very fabric of our military hinges on DoD personnel respecting their senior leadership. This is more amplified in war time. The morale of our fighting force is already beginning to show cracks.
Joseph J. Callahan
CSM USA SF (ret)

Response by SGM Nathan Thomas made Jul 5 at 2016 10:37 AM

2016-07-05T10:37:58-04:00

Mind you my 25 years of service ended in 1997, so I have been out a while, but I knew what was going on while my daughter was in for 20, my youngest son now with 14 years in, and my granddaughter now in AIT. I have listened and observed. I watch the officers, NCOs, and soldiers in and around the military basis here in Texas. I know the generation before me when looking at the time when I was in said "Lord help us" when talking about my generation in the military. I caught myself saying it too now and then. Here is what I know and that is our military is a product of our society. Our military changes as the people we bring in start putting in their ways as they were raised. We have military traditions in every branch of the service that are to be passed down and observed, but they are only as good as those who carry the torch.

No, leadership is not the same as it was 10, 15 years ago and nor should it be as it should always be improving and evolving to keep pace with our changing world. Where it should not change is in Accountability, Appearance, Maintenance, and Training. These areas if taken care of will get any NCO through any trials they may face. I have been challenged many times with those areas and I always challenge people to pick and area and tell me what would not fit. One said their 201 file. I said that fits into maintenance, keeping it up to date, accurate, and current. It is also a matter of training that the individual soldier knows what to look for and the junior leaders to also know what to look for, so they can take care of their soldiers is just one example.

What I have learned is that leaders need to look at the service as a way of life, not merely a job. When a soldier comes to an NCO at 18:30 hours and ask can I talk to you sergeant and the NCO says come see me tomorrow, without asking what is the matter, we have lost. That soldier may have come with an issue which may save or change someone life.

To me the NCO is and will always be the backbone of the military and our fighting forces either succeed or fail based upon the kind of leadership they have. There are so many areas that I can go into, but officers and NCOs need to understand their lanes. There are two kinds of leaders you can learn form good and bad leaders. The good leaders show you what to do, and the bad leaders show you what not to do!

Response by SFC Malcolm Haugen made Jul 5 at 2016 10:56 AM

2016-07-05T10:56:54-04:00

Absolutely not. I have heard how much leadership has changed. I recently spoke to a few NCOs recently returned from Afghanistan. I spoke with them about the leadership schools and their teachings. To me, it sounded as if they were being groomed to lead a corporation and not combat leaders. What happened to the old core values? I went to local unit and looked at the new manuals and ARs. Wow, what a difference. 22-100 and 22-101 are not really existent anymore. As NCOs, are we combat leaders or business men? What we train for and train out soldiers for is combat. Be, Know, Do. I guess what I see in my point of view, we are weak, very weak. NCOs are the back bone, get one.

Response by SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder made Jul 5 at 2016 11:05 AM

2016-07-05T11:05:22-04:00

Young NCOs should be left to lead without everybody dogging them all the time because they are young bucks. There is a problem that new officer candidates getting drilled into their brains that they are the end all be all of the military across all branches. Nowadays officers tend to be involved in what is none of their business; it's enlisted business, sir. If the machine is running efficiently than leave it alone and let it run before you create problems that didn't exist before. Just like with the PSG. Hey Gunny, Chief, SFC, Tech Sgt mediate and manage. That's your job. If your new buck is sandbagging than and you probably should not have promoted said SM in the first place. You knew it but you got him promoted anyway. Hold his feet to the fire, and if you need to. There is always the Admin Redux board that isn't utilized nearly as much as it SHOULD be. Most bad leaders were bad soldiers but held out long enough to get promoted and small unit leaders allowed it to happen. New NCOs should be encouraged to lead and their subordinates should be encouraged to follow them. Another problem that new NCOs and POs deal today is that seniors allow junior personnel to bypass their first lines and go straight up the chain of command without consequences. It is good that young service members have and utilize the open door policy that most units have in place, however a great number of service members use this and abuse it to their advantage without consulting their first line before hand. This was a problem that I ran into a number of times on my most recent period of active duty with the 82nd Airborne Division. However, newly promoted leaders tend to still have troop habits that need to be rooted out. They should always approach their subordinates and seniors in a mature and professional manner. They should segregate their selves from the junior soldiers. Junior NCOs need to keep their first line supervisor informed of all mission or task status, stoppages, and completions. They need to be perceived as approachable by seniors and subordinates alike. Initial counseling plays an important role in the lives of young, brand new to the unit personnel. They will not know your intentions, requirements, and expectations if you put off sitting down with them and get it on paper or just don't do it at all.

Response by SSG Patrick Thomas made Jul 5 at 2016 11:10 AM

2016-07-05T11:10:19-04:00

It has become more and more difficult for NCO's to lead as time went on. During my last deployment it came to light in spectacular fashion. As a result all the senior NCO's of my team left the service as quickly as possible. (trying to be vague because there are some leaders still in the organization) The team leaders constant micro-management techniques interfered with the teams running all the time. When it was brought up thru the NCO support channel and then thru the Chain of Command, it was blown off by our senior leadership. The toxic Officer is no longer my old unit, but the effects are being felt into their new deployment.

Response by SFC James Simpson made Jul 5 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-07-05T11:11:43-04:00

SGM and Master Sergeants don't seem to have the tools or power to train E-7 & E-6s in leadership the way it was when I was in. I retired at 20 years in 1994 and when we were given a mission (as an E-7), task or detail, we had no problem getting it done and the soldiers respected us. Yes they might have griped or complained but they did what they were told to do. That's just the way it was.
According to my cousin who is a Female Capt., there seems to a leadership problem from top to bottom. I don't really know, as I said I retired in 1994. What a shame.

Response by CPO George Bass made Jul 5 at 2016 11:35 AM

2016-07-05T11:35:35-04:00

No I do not. There are so many programs that allow younger people to advance in the ranks in a quicker time frame. These guys/gals don't learn leadership qualities that fast and it shows. I have nothing against advancement, but the senior leadership needs to recognize that before putting these people into major leadership roles so quick.

Response by MCPO Tom Miller made Jul 5 at 2016 11:43 AM

2016-07-05T11:43:42-04:00

Today's Militaries are incumbered by many stressors not even considered two decades ago. Social engineering has prompted new PC and political regulations never considered before and it has completely removed all signs of hard core leadership of strict chain of command leadership! With today's secular and mixed genders, one miss step and a once promising career could be ruined. It isn't a man's controlled with physical attributes that was the standards, but a mixture of men, women, gays, cultures, transvestism and personalities differences made possible by all this diverse fed instabilities. Back then, we were one, when you put on that uniform it didn't matter if you were rich, poor or from Oklahoma, you were in the military and no special recognition was given! You made the team or else with no quarters given! Leaders were competent and judged harshly by their peers and superiors. Today, you had better be careful how you render punishment or corrective actions. The days of foul language or aggressive leadership isn't in the books! No more for God and Country is carried so proudly as it once was!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 11:45 AM

2016-07-05T11:45:35-04:00

No. We have to deal with a bunch of wimps now. Political correctness has ruined leadership.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 11:53 AM

2016-07-05T11:53:47-04:00

Talking about the Army reserve, it is difficult to be the leader so many want to be, based on their own military upbringings. Leaders know days are like custodians "Head Start" etc, leaders have to analyze what are they going to say before engaging their mouth so that the subordinate don't get offended, so most leaders just look the other way forgetting that they are NCO's not sergeants leaders of men. Also in some occasions the chain of command don't help or back the NCO. So leadership was way better 15 years ago that today

Response by SMSgt Steve Neal made Jul 5 at 2016 11:59 AM

2016-07-05T11:59:13-04:00

Nope! The current political-correctness minefield out there limits and complicates today's NCO and SNCO roles to the point where even leading by example can reflect "conduct unbecoming..." in the eyes of the JAG... To project military discipline and combat experienced opinions then influence traditionally moral behavior on and off duty is now considered harassment; rather than effective leadership.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 12:04 PM

2016-07-05T12:04:35-04:00

It is tougher to be an NCO today. NCOs are not allowed to Supervise as they should. When we are more scared of hurting feelings than we are of failing our mission things are BAD.

Leaders need to focus on getting their people engaged. If the subordinates do not want to engage, show them the door ASAP! If military standards cannot be conformed to the standards do not need to be changed, the people need to be changed. IF you have leaders that do not want to lead, remove them. Promote on potential and performance and not on friendship and the buddy system.

Response by SFC Rob Frisk made Jul 5 at 2016 12:32 PM

2016-07-05T12:32:50-04:00

Hands have been so tied and the PC environment has so corroded the soldier of today it's pathetic. I can recall going to parade rest for specialists, now days you have privates disrespecting NCOs and aren't held to standard... It's a disgrace what "we've" devolved to! I miss what the military was compared to what it now is. Retirement came at a good time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 12:51 PM

2016-07-05T12:51:46-04:00

I think we have much more responsibility to and for our soldiers now. We have more resources and training available to us.

Response by PO1 John Runningwolf made Jul 5 at 2016 12:52 PM

2016-07-05T12:52:50-04:00

No I don't I feel that that the NCO traditional leadership has not only lost MANY of the great traditions over the past 2 decades! Not only that but training seems to be at a lower standard now. When I speak of traditions, one in specific I speak of is the Quiet Professionals code. That has always been a time honored tradition. But back during Desert Storm CNN had a news crew on the beach waiting at the insertion site of a SEAL TEAM causing a complete scrub of a mission and jeopardizing the lives of all of those men not to mention airing the event live on tv! Then we have men who served write books about what they did while in service and had movies made about actual ops. Now I am patriotic and I mourn the loss of a fallen brother and send prayers for his family. But back in the day, the number of NSW were classified as were the number of personnel. I am pretty sure it was the same with the other SpecOps branches as the government didn't like to give out information like that.
Now from what I read and heard from some frogs, you can go through a pre fitness program to prepare you for what you are going to go through to make it into the elite units. I know there was some talk about whether that was a good thing or not because the old ways actually (per frogs) "weeded out those who couldn't normally make it." "And only keep the best of the group." Now on the other side of the coin, I can see how additional conditioning could enhance one's chances to achieve their goal and their dreams. And if they are willing to put forth the work, then no harm no foul. They still completed the same training plus some extra conditioning to ensure they could cut the muster! Thus it is a win win. The military receives more SoecOp personnel and that. Individual is allowed to live out their dream. But what happened to the non disclosure agreements that the government had all military personnel sign? I know I had to sign a goatscrew of paper work about never discussing this or that, etc..... When I was finally discharged. You would have thought J Edgar Hoover himself was going to check in on you to make sure that you didn't say anything! Plus now they are even talking about hiring civilians as CPO's and CO's! I mean why not allow foreign nationals to join military intelligence while we are at it! ( sorry I still have to chuckle at that contradiction of words used together - military intelligence ) hopefully they got better than way back in the 60's!
Time, Honor and Tradition these 3 things can NEVER be replaced nor forgotten. 1st you have to do your time and work your way up the ranks, to be a good leader you must be an honorable man or woman and tradition - the traditions of each branch of the military is extremely important! It serves as a reminder of what that branch stands for, what makes that branch what it is, and why you chose that branch to fight and serve your for! These things must not be lost my brothers and sisters in arms lest the very values of who those who served before you are dishonored and the very flag which is raised and lowered every day, just be thrown to the ground cast away as a useless relic.
Stay strong! God Bless America and God Bless Our Troops!

Response by SSG Shawn McInturff made Jul 5 at 2016 12:54 PM

2016-07-05T12:54:13-04:00

No NCO's are now days are nothing but under pay baby sitters... With the PC Army you can't hurt someone feel's.... God help use all

Response by SSgt Joseph Thayer made Jul 5 at 2016 1:08 PM

2016-07-05T13:08:11-04:00

No.

Response by TSgt James Carson made Jul 5 at 2016 1:36 PM

2016-07-05T13:36:09-04:00

Political correctness is a deadly virous plassed there by Liberals now in power who hated the Military and it's rightful correctness and customs. The Military is to be a laughing stosk now and perform wasteful nation building duties. Concervative minded people should turn their backs on this new military as Liberals did during Viet Nam. Use their tactics to get our country back if you really want it back.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 1:55 PM

2016-07-05T13:55:33-04:00

I was an E5 stationed in Fort Bragg back in 1998. These Soldiers party hard and work hard. When they get caught doing drugs, the MP came get them put them in chain like convict. These joes will test the system. Keep building up the counseling packet. They might be looking to get kick out or medboards. Why not help them get out.

Response by SFC Mamerto Perez made Jul 5 at 2016 2:40 PM

2016-07-05T14:40:33-04:00

I feel that the newer NCO tend to be more strict in the lower enlisted

Response by MSG Mark Million made Jul 5 at 2016 2:47 PM

2016-07-05T14:47:22-04:00

One thing I dislike about todays leadership techniques is the required redundancy. I'm a bit "Old School" in feeling that after a soldier is told once to do something, or more importantly Not To Do Something, then it should not need to be reiterated multiple times except for clarification. I believe that taking responsibility off the soldiers and requiring leaders to "babysit" simple tasks is a diservice to the soldiers. This is not to say quick reminders, or progress checks and due diligence would not be in order. Some things should really never need to be said more than once.

Response by SGT Gary Sokol made Jul 5 at 2016 2:54 PM

2016-07-05T14:54:58-04:00

I was scolded by a lieutenant for correcting a soldier. I was told, "This isn't the old Army, anymore." My reply: "That's the problem."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 3:13 PM

2016-07-05T15:13:10-04:00

NCO leadership has had many hurdles to overcome throughout the centuries. Each NCO is developed through his or her professions, as necessary. The core of NCO leadership is to support the Commanding Officers METL. But as a soldier is expected to perform, so is an NCO is expected to lead. Non Commissioned Officers are in the business of MAKING LEADERS ! Everything else is just additional duties. The ability to make successful leaders is the real challenge. Overcoming the lack of confidence or over confidence of future leaders is the primary focus then to educate. So as someone who personally lived through the evolution of Infantry NCO leadership, I can attest that it has re focussed but ALWAYS had a very specific direction, to create leaders. This is my opinion based on 20 + years of my professional active duty. If you think that the NCO corps has faltered, then lead a new one from the top and fix it all, one challenge at a time.

Response by SGT Leroy Brown made Jul 5 at 2016 3:59 PM

2016-07-05T15:59:52-04:00

This may or may not have anything to do with this topic but, I've not once but, twice was not able to go on an extended leave period for the reasons I needed and both NCO'S, whom I won't name, told me if I paid them they can cover for me while I was gone. Lol. From what I've heard, service before self is no longer a key thing in the military with a lot of leaders. This is just my side of the story. I'm sure there is plenty more out there.

Response by SSG Gerald King made Jul 5 at 2016 4:01 PM

2016-07-05T16:01:10-04:00

This all started going downhill in the mid 70's with the introduction of the cub scouts ( I mean volunteer Army). I got out with 10 1/2 years service in late 1975 because respect for the NCO was being eroded. When I got out we had a large number of E-6's with 10 to 12 years service calling it quits. It got so bad that any E'6 or above who decided to get out had to explain why to the Regimental Commander and CSM. When I talked with the CSM, he understood and said if it were not for the fact he already had nearly 30 years in, that he may well do the same thing. Both the CSM and Commander stated that the Army needed good NCO's to stay in to bring about the change. I guess that change never came. At least not back to giving respect to the NCO.

Response by SFC Harold King made Jul 5 at 2016 5:03 PM

2016-07-05T17:03:31-04:00

No it's not but as times change people and values change

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 6:08 PM

2016-07-05T18:08:28-04:00

First for most SSG Mathew Unger has nailed it on the head. I don't know what's happened to discipline in the Army. Mostly because more Americans fear disciplining their children. Oh while I'm on discipline mosteoporosis people think punishment but that another side which is training; like a disciplined martial art student etc. We as Americans have coultered our to be but hurt about everything. So for some examples even 8 vs today 8 ago when I was in a private e-1 if e-2 or above told what I just did it no question asked. I just made e-5 the first out ten soldiers only one went to parade rest without me telling him to. So self discipline is what the problem is. Oh ps if NCO told you to do something than Roger move out. Now days soldiers can back talk an NCO and we can't do anything about it. Back then you got 4856 muscle memory. Now the memory foam beds

Response by 1SG Robert Rush made Jul 5 at 2016 6:36 PM

2016-07-05T18:36:43-04:00

I was in the military for over 40 years, 1969-2009. I have said this before in one or more of these forums, In the Army and reserve components, NCOs and Officers are being promoted at a too fast rate. They don't understand the positions they are being moved up to. The level of professional SR NCO in today's Army could not compare to those 20, 30 or even 40 years ago. They key on PT alone and not the knowledge the individual needs not only for their present position but for the next. I don't know if there is such a thing anymore as NCO development TNG. I personally worked with every soldier in my companies to ensure they know their jobs and prepared them for their next position. I did not recommend a soldier for advancement until they were ready. I found that out early when I first became a 1SG. I recommended any individual be promoted to E-5, only after a period, to find out he was not ready. He could not do the whole scope of the position, so I ask him to request an administrative reduction and he did. He knew that this position was over his head. Today's soldiers are having the same problems that their predecessors had. As an NCO you need to be able to talk with your soldiers and help them through their problems. You are the only one that can first help them. Your mission comes first, but you are responsible for the physical and mental conditioning of you soldiers.

Response by MSG Don Burt made Jul 5 at 2016 7:40 PM

2016-07-05T19:40:10-04:00

O hell No! NCO's and to a greater extent, the Officers are being Micro-Managed to the nth degree! And the one responsible is mr. obama and his minions.....! I am ashamed and dishonored that the Military is now being trained as Members and not as A TEAM! The Army flag will probably turn pink with a rainbow high light. NCO's think they have problems now...O brother you ain't seen nuttin' yet! NCOs play a key role in educating, training and inspiring the troops under their command because being part of the Army, an organization that instills pride in its personnel because of its history, mission, capabilities, and the respect it has earned in the service of the Nation and around the world. Wow, doesn’t that sound good...eight years ago and also when Ronald Reagan was our President, that statement was true! Not so much today...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 8:44 PM

2016-07-05T20:44:03-04:00

I think like all things times are changing and so isn't leadership skills. Technology rules the world and we need to learn with it, but we can not forget the basics either. To me treat your soldiers as you would want be treated. Take care of them and they will take care of you. You need to continue to know your job and mentor soldiers to do your job. I think as leaders we don't hold ourselves accountable as much anymore. We blame the generation but we need to learn to step up ourselves first. There are many ways to get leadership skills between reading both military and business books help.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 9:46 PM

2016-07-05T21:46:35-04:00

well I did type a long post but, the website reset so I lost it all.
I have a very strong answer for this and more I think about it the madder I get.
I'm nd old Vietnam Jungle Fighter who also served in OND/OIF/OEF.
I will type my opinion and answer in notes them copy and paste at a later time
I have got to chill right now. This is a "HOT" and "Touchy" subject.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 9:50 PM

2016-07-05T21:50:56-04:00

In my 16 years the Army has went a whole different direction. Coming up if I messed up it was a smoke session and wall to wall counciling. In today's "Army" if you so much as speak a harsh word to a troop that has messed up you have the possibility of "catching paper" demotion, or worse. I had a troop loose thire Mil ID, lie to me about it when asked ( I knew when I asked to see it) failed to get a new one on the appointed day because " they did not know they had to do it on thire own time on a down day from training" . So we take a trip to the hill. I began my session and was stopped less then 2 minutes in and told if it was continued I would receive an article 15. So yeah a lot has changed, and leadership or lack there of has changed due to this.

Response by PO2 David Allender made Jul 5 at 2016 10:56 PM

2016-07-05T22:56:57-04:00

General Powell said it all above. Failure of leadership, either you stopped leading them, or you do not care about your people assigned to you. Have you ever watched "Tour of Duty? The sgt. takes care of his men, and they respect him for it. It is a two way street, you get what you put into it. If you do not care, then they will not caare about you.

Response by CSM Jim Hardin made Jul 6 at 2016 7:10 AM

2016-07-06T07:10:46-04:00

When I retired I had 4 pair of jump boot, 24 pair of uniforms, all ready ready for formation. My troops NEVER saw me a dirty uniform, They saw me OUT of uniform. The NCO'S of today are a MESS their DONOT care about troops image of them. The NCO.s are a mess they need to go back 25 years and tell, the commanders that they run the ARMY. Just tell ME WHAT DONE>>>>>

Response by MSgt Ken Flood made Jul 6 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-07-06T08:35:16-04:00

I entered the Air Force nearly 50 years ago, at that time NCO were like gods, when a senior NCO spoke you jumped to respond. That changed over the next 20 years. We didn't lead out of fear, their was a little more compassion for the Airman and his family, in the 60's family was secondary. To tell the truth I sometimes think in some situations is still needed. It's been nearly 30 years since I had to deal with any of it, but I will say that my leadership training translated into civilian life and I had a smooth transition into the business world because of it.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Jul 6 at 2016 9:22 AM

2016-07-06T09:22:57-04:00

IMHO, leadership is rapidly becoming a lost skill. Everyone is so preoccupied with political correctness that the ability to lead is radically diminished. We have to get our military back to where it runs like a well oiled machine. People doing their job because it's their job and quit coddling the little bastards just along for the ride. We have to stop being concerned with hurt feelings and needing time out. You want time out? GET OUT OF MY MILITARY! Some leaders are natural born leaders, most are not. Leadership is a skill that needs to be honed, sharpened and polished like a fine knife. A knife because as a leader you walk a very fine line between showing a subordinate the proper way and coming off as a dictator.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 9:40 AM

2016-07-06T09:40:21-04:00

The officer corp has stripped the power of the NCO away. For all the schools we attend now we should be much more advanced. However the focus of the schools has become more about supporting the officers and less emphasis on taking care of your soldiers.

Response by SFC John Raymond made Jul 6 at 2016 1:23 PM

2016-07-06T13:23:08-04:00

With the environment produced by the commander in chief on down I don't see how anyone can adequately lead anymore. Social politics decide every action in today's world. The military used to be a formidable force to be reckoned with, now it's a social experiment. God help us going forward....
So no, there's no way anything is better than it was 10 years ago.

Response by SSG Timothy McCoy made Jul 6 at 2016 4:09 PM

2016-07-06T16:09:08-04:00

No, I really don't know about today, I wonder the same question a long time ago.. As I retired 10 years ago in 2006, and I wonder how the Army leadership was going to go.
Leaders are forged by mentors that have high standards and unwaiverable expectations. As an example the Packers coach Vince Lombardi said, "Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile."
We have all heard Sun Tzu quote, "The More You Sweat in Peace, the Less You Bleed in War." I am sure that this might hurt someone's feelings. And isn't P.C. It used to be the NCOs' job was to do the training and it was the Os' job to be a Training Distractor shield, and to be leading from the front aptitude.
As I was leaving the Army, I was told that I needed to watch how I taught my classes as I might hurt the LTs' feelings and I might scare them. For Crying Out Loud I was a SERE instructor, and my classes were on what to do AFTER they got shot down in a Combat Zone.
When the Kit glove caressed LT get on into their careers their attitudes are no different in the P.C. correctness being expected of the leaders and the airs of entitlement of the Led.
During a firefight Please and Thank you just doesn't make senses

HtH
Tim

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Jul 6 at 2016 6:59 PM

2016-07-06T18:59:13-04:00

Not even close the new PC Military makes it hard for NCOs to do their job which is lead and train troops. Even in the leadership schools they are being trained to be PC and not hurt the Soldiers feelings. Hard to gain good leadership skills in that setting. Back in my day the NCO was God not so much anymore.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 7:06 PM

2016-07-06T19:06:11-04:00

active yes reserves no, ncoes dont do what needs to be done because they dont get paid for it, and take away family time

Response by 1SG Henry McDonald made Jul 6 at 2016 10:03 PM

2016-07-06T22:03:47-04:00

Anybody who has been in the military over the last ten years would be hard pressed to not agree that NCO leadership has seriously deteriorated over that time. Standards have been ignored blatantly. Everyone here has pointed out the lack of commitment to the military with their delicate feelings. As the First Sergeant of a Regimental Academy it made me sick to see NCOs and soldiers show up unable to meet 600-9 or APFT standards. There were periods of time during which we were unable to drop these soldiers. We were required to pass them with a marginally achieved. I would then see these very same soldiers on promotion lists just a month or two later. This is absolutely unacceptable.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2016 4:16 PM

2016-07-08T16:16:52-04:00

I am a AIT instructor right now and it is sad, but true. There are some of the Platoon SGTs that are rangers, infantry and so forth and are told that they are going to lose their careers if they continue to be the way they are. Now that the PLT SGTs can no longer do what NCOs are supposed to, we are getting them in the classrooms even more undisciplined. Some of don't care and take the risk of getting in trouble ourselves and correct them and do our parts as NCOs anyway. I tell the Soldiers all the time to have fun while in training, but its a different ball game when they get to their units.

Response by SGM Harvey Boone made Jul 8 at 2016 9:36 PM

2016-07-08T21:36:08-04:00

NO To much particality and politically correctness. Nd too much power tripping

Response by TSgt Robert Danley made Jul 9 at 2016 9:24 PM

2016-07-09T21:24:09-04:00

Nothing is the same as it was then. Nothing.

Response by CMSgt William Staggs made Jul 18 at 2016 12:37 PM

2016-07-18T12:37:19-04:00

Can anyone describe what it was 10-15 years ago?

Response by MSgt Jeff Greene made Jul 21 at 2016 12:51 PM

2016-07-21T12:51:23-04:00

I enlisted in 1966. You ALWAYS respected NCOs. They had earned respect by their rank and it didn't matter if they were good or bad (I worked with and for both). When I became an NCO I told myself to take what I had learned from both type of NCOs and use it to become the leader I wanted my leader to be - firm but fair, understanding and compasionate, but above all the leader they needed. Today, after being retired for 25 years I see many NCOs more concerned with where they are going then who will help them get there. A good supervisor is only as good as the people they lead and if you are not preparing your subordinates to take our place one day, they you are a failure as a leader.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Jul 21 at 2016 1:13 PM

2016-07-21T13:13:04-04:00

Nothing wrong with NCO Leadership its the people society produces. Mostly, an unwillingness to do what is necessary for the overall good, and that was learned from a community planner and a bunch of lawyers.

Response by MAJ David Brand made Jul 21 at 2016 2:32 PM

2016-07-21T14:32:58-04:00

I think that you are correct! Leadership can be learned on the job - with a little more pain - or you can take courses to help you learn how to lead, manage and supervise. I came across this facebook post from FTCC that might help all of us learn a little more and get college credit for it. You are probably only one course away from a Certificate in Leadership and Management! With the new requirements for promotion that include additional military education, the Leadership and Management Certificate helps you earn promotion points for civilian education while rewarding you for your required military training. This certificate will work for all military services!
Courses
BUS 135 – Principles in Supervision
BUS 137 – Principles in Management
HUM 230 – Leadership Development
COM 120 – Introduction to Interpersonal Communication, or COM 231 – Public Speaking
Total Credits Required = 12
Credit for Military Training
The Leadership & Management Certificate includes courses for which most military NCOs will receive credit for military training and experience. At least 3 credit hours must be completed at FTCC to apply your earned credits.
Outcome
In addition to earning promotion points, the credits earned in the Leadership & Management Certificate will also apply to a business degree or to an Associate in General Education.
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Response by 1SG Jimmie Riegel made Aug 13 at 2016 1:46 PM

2016-08-13T13:46:06-04:00

My answer; NO! The NCO chain has their hands tied 99.9% of the time. Therefore there is no discipline.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2016 12:20 PM

2016-08-19T12:20:58-04:00

To much micromanagement /meetings while in garrison. Change how we lead by changing your perspective about what matters.
Over the years I’ve been asked by leaders how to delegate better. People in leadership positions want to manage their people and delegate out tasks, except the difficult ones, letting their teams / people work independently, unless they need help, all while they continue to maintain their personal workload.