Do you think not having a combat patch means you are a less effective leader compared to someone who does?

2017-09-18T20:14:54-04:00

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 18 at 2017 8:19 PM

2017-09-18T20:19:12-04:00

It may have an impact on your credibility as a leader. It doesn't have one bit of impact on your authority. If challenged, nip it in the bud.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Sep 18 at 2017 9:10 PM

2017-09-18T21:10:39-04:00

What you wear doesn't make you good or bad, your actions will speak volumes about who you really are no matter what bling you sport. In my own personal opinion the only way someone would be a POS for not having a FWTS-SSI would be if they actively avoided deployments multiple times with every fiber of their being. I would equate them to the other side of the coin the Patch hunters.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Sep 18 at 2017 9:11 PM

2017-09-18T21:11:35-04:00

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Sep 18 at 2017 9:45 PM

2017-09-18T21:45:55-04:00

No. It'll be luck of the draw for young NCOs and Officers. Learn your job. Train your soldiers. That will be your credentials.

When I came on AD in 1994, it was about 50/50 for combat patches. I did not feel as high speed as others who had combat patches from Desert Storm, Somalia, and Panama. It was purely luck of the draw based on when you came on AD. Some had good stuff to pass on. Others were not so high speed, they were just there.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2017 9:47 PM

2017-09-18T21:47:11-04:00

Think of it this way. The army is transitioning away from the coin fight and training for decisive action against a near peer enemy. In that sense, our combat patches from Iraq and Afghanistan are from a previous type of fight and we're all on a level playing field with decisive action. At least that's my opinion on the matter.

Response by SSG James Behnke made Sep 18 at 2017 10:02 PM

2017-09-18T22:02:13-04:00

Context matters. There are some things that only experience can teach. If a BN is getting ready to go downrange, then the leaders who have been there before are going to be relied on heavily for their experience. However, the essential qualities of being a good leader are not taught specifically by going on a combat deployment, they are only heavily tested during a deployment.

Dig into ADRP 6-22, model yourself after leaders you have had that inspired and motivated you and learn from the ones that didn't. Character, presence, and intellect are the three leader attributes, and ADRP 6-22 breaks that down even further. Understand what they mean and strive to work on all three at all times. Continue to do that and you'll be able to lead, develop, and achieve more effectively, regardless of what's on your right shoulder.

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Sep 18 at 2017 10:19 PM

2017-09-18T22:19:00-04:00

Having a combat patch doesn't make you anything.. your actions do... the experience helps mold a person some .. that's it.. best way to look at it is this.. a shitbag leader downrange isn't any better when he comes back.. still a shitbag leader

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2017 10:47 PM

2017-09-18T22:47:49-04:00

I lead everyday for the past 20 years with or without patch. Leadership is a very diverse word. Some politicians consider themselves leaders, but truly are pandering followers. Some people step up and do something special and deserve title, if only for a few minutes. So I'd you find a cause and get one person to follow you, you can be a leader. If you mentor, coach or develop another you could be a leader. The patch is only an Army thing, so I think, and does not represent leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2017 9:02 AM

2017-09-19T09:02:31-04:00

Given the many variables to leadership, there is no simple yes or no answer. That said, I'll be that guy, as plenty of others have already said no to varying degrees.

Yes, yes it does. There is no teacher like experience and having a patch means you've done the job the Army has trained you to do under adverse and dangerous conditions. Or at least ideally that is what it means.

And because that is what it means, if you have a patch you should be a better leader than someone who lacks that experience.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Sep 19 at 2017 10:04 AM

2017-09-19T10:04:12-04:00

NO, the opportunity to serve in combat is dictated by circumstances that are generally out of the control of individual Soldiers.
Now if you've been serving for the last 16 or so years and don't have a combat patch I may ask WTF have you been doing that you never got the call.
But leadership effectiveness isn't dependent on a patch, there are guys with combat patches that rarely if ever left the FOB so having a patch doesn't automatically make them masters of the warriors arts.

Response by SGT Matthew S. made Sep 19 at 2017 10:18 AM

2017-09-19T10:18:55-04:00

No, it just means you don't have the same experience as someone else - which can also often be true between two service members that have deployed. Effective leadership comes from the person in question, not whether or not they have deployed.

In my second unit, there was a SSG Squad Leader in my Platoon that had been in for over ten years and never deployed anywhere (this was in 2005). He had even volunteered for deployments in the past, only to have orders come down and send him elsewhere. Infuriated him to no end, but he was still an exceptional leader and NCO without ever having deployed.

When we did deploy later the next year, he was certainly up to snuff even compared to other NCO's with one or more deployments under their belt already.

Response by SPC Don Dean made Sep 19 at 2017 11:17 AM

2017-09-19T11:17:02-04:00

Any soldier who has been through combat has my ears, there is alot to learn there, and much respect.

Response by PO1 Dennis Herdina made Sep 19 at 2017 11:25 AM

2017-09-19T11:25:49-04:00

Not hardly. A effective leader is ALWAYS effective wether or not he has combat patch. A combat patch is merely a sign that he/she served in combat; THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU EFFECTIVE. It is not a magic totem. An effective leader is developed over time and with varied skill sets and knowledge. I have served with individuals I would not trust tolead a horse to water. Similiarly I have served with others who I would storm hell with a bucket of water if asked because they would be in front of me with an eyedropper. An effective leader is one who can give an order because he has taken orders and he can lead because he has proved himself many times over and learned to use his strengths and improve his weaknesses

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Sep 19 at 2017 1:47 PM

2017-09-19T13:47:14-04:00

No, but you are an unknown quantity. That means that until shit pops off, your superiors and subordinates aren't sure if you are any good. The fact that you haven't been yet doesn't mean that you'll be less effective, but it does make those depending on you a little more uneasy until they see you in action. Fortunately I doubt that you would find a squad without any experienced leadership in the last 15 years. This means that there will be at least someone who can pick up the slack.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 19 at 2017 3:20 PM

2017-09-19T15:20:15-04:00

No. A combat patch is just another trinket that says you did something somewhere. A combat patch has no bearing on your MOS credibility... unless your MOS is specifically combat related.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2017 6:07 PM

2017-09-19T18:07:40-04:00

Are you going to be looked down on or as less of an NCO for not having deployed yet....No. But will the NCOs who have deployed be looked at differently...Yes. They have done something that you havent. Its the same as if you went to Ranger school, or any school for that matter, vs a soldier who didnt attend that school. Its something you did that they havent.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2017 6:31 PM

2017-09-19T18:31:38-04:00

Not really. When I originally joined the Army in 99 they were a rarity and I never thought twice about it, but once ladi dadi everybody started deploying in the early 2000s I definitely looked at senior NCOs and Officers with some side eye if they didn't have one. In retrospect I know that everyone's situation is different. I've known folks who pretty much bragged about finding ways out of deployment. Those are the type of people I definitely look down on, especially when you have other folks who end up having to deploy multiple times to pick up the slack. Since deployments started winding down over the past few years they seem to be getting slightly more rare again. By the time I finally retire I may end up being one of the dinosaurs who still has one.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2017 7:05 PM

2017-09-19T19:05:50-04:00

In the Marine Corps, we don't have d*** measuring contests using something as trivial as a patch. If you want effective leadership, find someone with 1+ more stripes than you on their collar who is willing (key word here) to teach you how to do your job. A deployment doesn't necessarily mean MOS proficiency or leadership potential/experience anyway, as many get tasked with augmenting other sections outside of their own.

Response by SMSgt James Williams made Sep 19 at 2017 9:19 PM

2017-09-19T21:19:00-04:00

Air force guy....Yeah...What I want to say about us and our leaders, no patches, combat etc...Just sounds dumb when I say it out loud. So, I'll sit hit quietly and read on. Lol.

Response by SPC Walter Currier made Sep 20 at 2017 11:46 AM

2017-09-20T11:46:15-04:00

leadership is more about the character and integrity of the leader than what they wear.

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Sep 20 at 2017 1:24 PM

2017-09-20T13:24:11-04:00

Not in the least bit, what makes an effective leader is training (yes those silly schools they send us to do help) and experience; accomplishing the mission, but ensuring that you take care of your troops along the way. Obviously you have to have intelligence but also common sense. Now there's always a caveat. Considering we've had two ongoing operations for over 16 years in Iraq and Afghanistan (and all the surrounding countries which qualify for FWTS-SSI, commonly referred to as combat patch), seeing battalion and higher level CSMs as well as commanders (LTC and up) without a patch does pose a question, "how come you've never deployed this whole time?". As 1SG Dennis Hicks pointed out you may have folks who actively avoided mobilizations (aka s#!tbags), but on a flip side you have the "patch hunters". You also have Soldiers who were never in a position to deploy for a multitude of reasons but wanted to go, as well as the ones who deployed involuntarily 4 or 5 times and are burned out (I'm talking Army mobilizations that were 12 months or longer, not that short tour stuff Marines, Navy and Air Force do, not that anything is wrong with that, but a year is a long time). Believe me I've been around the block for 17 years and I've seen leaders who've never deployed who were outstanding, and the ones with 4 combat patches who were soup sandwich (to put it nicely). And just for fun I have to add this - don't judge a book by it's cover (or lack of a patch) - because Soldiers may elect not to wear their FWTS-SSI (for any number of reasons), you may think they never deploy when in fact they just don't like the unit/patch they deployed with or were assigned to (I've seen it many times).

Response by MAJ Bill Riddle made Sep 20 at 2017 1:48 PM

2017-09-20T13:48:31-04:00

I alternated I Field Force VN (first tour) and 1st Avn Bde (second tour) patches. When in the late '70s, I would see senior field grades with no combat patch or VN service medal I had to wonder "Where have you been hiding?"

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Sep 20 at 2017 2:08 PM

2017-09-20T14:08:20-04:00

My thought is that there are those who can say they trained for the Olympics all of their lives & never went & those who actually did make it to the Olympics. Guess who gets more respect?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2017 2:13 PM

2017-09-20T14:13:23-04:00

It is the man/woman wearing the uniform that makes the difference, not the patch.

I have read a few of these comments. Here are my two cents, no a patch has no affect on what I think of a leader. It should have no affect on what anyone else thinks either. this is why, I have deployed with leaders with and without patches and there is no correlation to effectiveness based on having or not having. Ones with patches are not always more prepared or have the knowledge of what it will take to have a good deployment. Ones with out are not always less prepared or have less knowledge of what it will take to have a good deployment.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2017 3:08 PM

2017-09-20T15:08:12-04:00

The one who does have a chip on their shoulder and thinking they know it all. Well dibshit, you with a combat patch on your shoulders, your shit stunk n u can't lead. I have and or had in t h e past, came across some of the best leader (NCO N OFFICERS) with a combat patch.

Response by SPC James Anderson made Sep 20 at 2017 6:52 PM

2017-09-20T18:52:49-04:00

So sick of combat patch this and combat patch that. Getting into combat does not make you special it means that the unit you were in was "ordered" there as opposed to someone else, everyone joins the military knowing its a possibility but not everyone makes it there. If anyone thinks that any patch or medal at all some how makes you a more effective leader then you are to stupid to be an effective leader.

Response by SSG Kenneth Boyer made Sep 20 at 2017 7:55 PM

2017-09-20T19:55:31-04:00

A little saying we have in the biker world is that the patch doesn't make the man, the man makes the patch. Being a leader shouldn't be defined by wether or not you have a combat patch. Your character does. Its really hit and miss. I know everyone has seen a few leaders with combat experience and you find yourself asking "how did this idiot get promoted or commissioned?" Then you got those leaders who have never deployed and act just like Rambo and again you are asking yourself, "how did this idiot even get promoted or commissioned?"

Response by 1SG Richard Epps made Sep 20 at 2017 9:52 PM

2017-09-20T21:52:28-04:00

No; effectiveness is about the individual's abilities and not about another person opinion of that person.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 20 at 2017 10:24 PM

2017-09-20T22:24:32-04:00

It depends... If the SM in question was serving the last 15 years and in an MOS commonly seen in theater and has no right side patch, its not a negative, but it is a reason to attract attention and scrutiny, if leadership is seen, not another thought.

My thought was,,,, no patch does not mean a dud, but what has that SM been doing the last 15 years while the rest of the Army has been deploying back to back?... There are reasonable reasons beyond a SM's control..they might not have deployed, 3 star said your staying in the COMMS section at the Pentagon till I get reassigned..., then they came down on DA select Recruiter duty, followed by PCS to a unit that just redeployed, and then a PCS to my unit in the middle of REGEN........ but many in that situation I had knowledge of, had to work at it, had to intentionally avoid deployment, and THAT is a leadership indicator

Response by Victoria Peery made Sep 20 at 2017 11:30 PM

2017-09-20T23:30:26-04:00

There are many types of AMAZING leaders. I don't feel you have to have combat patches to prove that. Yeah they may be decorative and well earned but behind that strength to lead in combat you must first learn to lead and follow.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2017 10:09 AM

2017-09-21T10:09:01-04:00

I've got 19 years in and no FWT-SSI. I feel I've been pretty effective in leading troops over the years.