Do you think Officers get paid too much? (If so, why?) Do you think NCOs should get paid more? What are your thoughts?

2014-03-12T05:40:04-04:00

I also think that officers should have a degree that coincides with there MOS... 

Response by SSG Oliver Mathews made Mar 12 at 2014 6:08 AM

2014-03-12T06:08:17-04:00

Yes i think Officers get paid to much ONLY because of how the annual increase for the cost of living has favored the higher ranks and pays due to simple math.

This is only my opinion and observations that i have made looking at the pay charts.

Example:
Jan 1990 a SFC with 20 years made : 2122. Today he makes : 4371.
Jan 1990 a LTC with 20 years Made : 3983. Today he makes : 8422.

24 years and a 2000 dollar difference has turned into a 4000 dollar difference.

Maybe O1 vs E2?

O1 Less than 2 years
1990: 1387
2014: 3065

E2 Less than 2 years
1990: 811
2014: 1716

500 dollar difference became a 1300 dollar difference.

Imagine a LT and a Private came into the service the same day 24 years ago...

One was making
1387 while the other was making we will say 724. Fast forward 24 years
One is now making a minimum of 8675 with a maximum of 14552, while the other is making a maximum of 6129 (unless you are the SMA or Senior Enlisted Adviser to the JCS then you make 7816).

Again this is only my opinion.

Response by SSG Roderick Smith made Mar 12 at 2014 7:46 AM

2014-03-12T07:46:16-04:00

I don't think officers get paid too much. I do, however, think enlisted personnel as a whole worry too much about what they aren't getting and not enough about what they can accomplish. Of course I want more money. I also know that if I want it bad enough, I can get it... by becoming an officer.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 12 at 2014 9:11 AM

2014-03-12T09:11:04-04:00

There are a couple things to factor into this. First is that officers must have a college degree, therefore the general thought process is that they will be paid higher. The reason they are paid higher is related to the degree of responsibility they assume (and I am NOT saying an NCO does not have responsibility, however, in the end, an officer owns the program, the NCO runs it).

Am I being paid more than my civilian counterpart? Yes (in my case, but not in all case for officers). Especially when you consider the healthcare insurance, dental, education, etc. However, there are not too many nurses (or doctors, lawers, chaplains, etc) that have signed a blank check to the government and the people of the USA up to and including sacrificing my life. Combat, TDY, deployments, and other military hardships play a significant role in offsetting that pay difference.

Enlisted, while you get paid less, remember, they get the same benefits of Health insurance, life insurance, BAS, BAH, Education, etc as officers. Those benefits add up. You may be paid the same (maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less) then your civilian counterparts, but remember, while they are making the same $$, YOU don't have rent, your food is offset, you don't pay for your insurance....they have to do all that out of the same money. (officers are the same way).

Pay is always a touchy subject. I am only trying to look at it from all angles. I am not on the Pay Commitee, so I can only collect it....not direct how much it is for whom....

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 12 at 2014 9:12 AM

2014-03-12T09:12:52-04:00

I think many enlisted members worry too much about what officers get paid...instead of worrying, apply for a commissioning program.<br><br>Public service was never intended for people to get rich...if someone complains about their pay (or others' pay), attend your mandatory transition services, when the time is right, and go get rich OUTSIDE of public service.<br><br>Since you added 'Fair Pay' as a Tag...do you think that officers and enlisted should receive similar pay?  Officers have MUCH more responsibilities than NCOs any day, and should be compensated accordingly.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 9:42 AM

2014-03-12T09:42:46-04:00

I don't feel that Officers get paid to much, however, I do feel that the gap in pay between Senior NCOs and their Officer counterparts needs to change. I understand that Officiers get paid more because they have a College Degree, but isn't it true that a good portion of E-8 or E-9s have a college degree as well? And as for the responisiblity they assume?? If things go wrong in a unit the Commander is not the only one held accountable. The burden of Command has changed in my opinion.

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made Mar 12 at 2014 2:04 PM

2014-03-12T14:04:57-04:00

It is not that officers get paid too much, it is that NCOs do not get paid enough. If you look at the private sector, the technical expert makes similar pay as management(excluding the CEOs and what not). It has creates a problem with retention when the economy is good. Skilled NCOs are poached by tech firms and the only NCOs remaining are the ones who really love serving their country and those who were not able to get work elsewhere. Now not all MOS's have civilian counterpart jobs but the point still stands an expert in infantry tactics should be paid equivalently to an expert at communications.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 12:26 AM

2014-03-14T00:26:40-04:00

I would say in the past in general officers held degrees and to help them remain competitive with their civilian peers they were compensated as such. However, times have changed and I do believe the pay system could see a revision. Im a SSG that currently holds a bachelors degree and currently working on my masters. I love being an NCO mainly because I get to develop, mentor, and get involved "hands on" with soldiers. With that being said I shouldnt have to commission to receive better pay. My Commander and I often have this conversation and his viewpoint is that pay is also tied to level of responsibility and he makes valid points that I can accept. With that being said I dont see why an officer whose base pay is higher than mine is entitled to a higher BAH rate if we have the same sized family and live in the same area. The difference in base pay Im willing to accept but not the difference in BAH.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2014 12:56 PM

2014-06-13T12:56:34-04:00

I think officer pay is fine where it's at. NCOs should receive more pay than we currently receive due to the increased amount of higher education we have (many are on par with their officer counter parts or even above). That being said, I also believe Commanders/1SGs/CSMs should receive a "leadership" stipend for having to contend with all the added responsibilities. And I'm talking about from the Company-level on up. It shouldn't be restricted to just GO-level commanders.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2014 1:12 PM

2014-06-13T13:12:01-04:00

I spent 12 years in college to earn a BA and a PhD. I'm not going to work for $50k/year. My salary is on par with my education and what I'd be earning as a professor. If you want people with Dr. in front of their name, you're going to have to pay.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2014 2:57 PM

2014-06-13T14:57:52-04:00

Did you not hear? We ALL get paid too much and need to cut our pay increases and benefits.

On a serious note I know that I earn my pay. Others? Well I will be the first to admit there are some that yes are making too much for their performance. However, that is where their leaders should ensure that they do not get promoted and are mentored or pushed out. Same as enlisted. There are some SSG's that make too much for their performance. Do we start going to performance based pay? Police and fireman also make lower wages or they strictly volunteer. Life is not fair in general. If you are in it for the money go get a job that pays insanely for doing nothing or go marry a rich person. I personally looked into the marrying a rich person and well....Elizabeth Taylor and Oprah turned me down and Ellen is not interested..

It is very hard to ensure that all officers have degrees in their field. Where do you find a degree for infantry or armor? MP, well the law on civilian side is different than military law. In addition as an Army Engineer we can be put into so many different positions such as construction and route clearance where as in the civilian world you have a concentration on civil, nuclear, electrical, etc. You are just going to run out of officers before you can fill in positions by doing that. And what college offers how to do route clearance?

Response by MSG Martin C. made Jun 13 at 2014 3:04 PM

2014-06-13T15:04:05-04:00

The pay diference is based on levels of responsibility not education specially now days when enlisted members are as qualified as any junior officer. The problem I see it's at the Senior ranks E7 and up there is a clear gap that in my opinion should be close a little. There are senior NCOs taking extraordinary loads that are equal or higher in responsibility specially in staff and technical positions. There is also a reason most warrants feed from the NCOs ranks. The bottom line is that enlisted need to take advantage of all opportunities within their reach like the free tuition that officers don't receive. Certifications and benefits like the uniform clothing allowance and cool certificates. Must NCOs fail to take as much from the Army as the Army takes from them if you apply your self you could become more educated than an officer it's a matter of choice and sacrifice. I always tell my Soldiers to prepare themselves for what's after the Army so if you want to close the gap go OCS or warrant or simply finish you MBA while in the service and get out to chase that dough.....

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2014 12:18 AM

2014-06-15T00:18:42-04:00

So let me throw this twist into the mix. The President was just in VT the other day as the governor just raised the minimum wage to $10 an hour. So take this as an example you are a business owner and you had employees that had been with you for years and the started out at the old minimum wage $7.50 hr an over the years you have them a raise each year. Now they are at $10 hr, but you need to hire more help. They start at $10 hr, what do you think your other employees are going to do? So with that said if they raise the wages then I think everyone should get a raise right? Look at this in Dec of 13 you made more money then you did in Jan of 14. Yes we got a 1% pay raise but you paid 2.4% more in taxes. Check your LES. So I hope I get you to thinking when they say lets change the minimum wage as this is going to effect some 80,000 Soldiers coming off Active Duty. Talk to your Soldiers an explain what is not being talked about in the main stream media.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2014 7:50 PM

2014-09-09T19:50:18-04:00

I don't think the pay disparity should be where it currently is between officers and enlisted. I think that officers are paid about what they should be paid, but the entire enlisted pay scale could use a bump. Do I think an O-3 with 4 years in should take home a higher base pay than an E-8 with 20 years in? Hell no. The difference isn't a huge one, but it's the principle of the matter.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 8 at 2015 5:32 PM

2015-09-08T17:32:37-04:00

Folks, there is something called pay compression, when we increase the senior NCO ranks we actually stagnate lower Officer and Warrant Officer pay, tot he point that for some Warrants we end up on "save pay." That is not system, that we as a military, want to be using if it can be avoided. Keep in mind the recruiting process for Warrants and to lesser degree Officers comes from the enlisted ranks, shrink our pay and we will lose the best and brightest technical minds in the future.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2016 12:04 PM

2016-03-14T12:04:32-04:00

"I also think that officers should have a degree that coincides with there MOS..."

Thank the Army... I have a BS in Chemistry and an MS in Chemical Engineering. The Army made me an MP and then sent me to supply school. Apparently when I got commissioned, the Army needed MPs and Logies more than they needed Chemical Officers...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2018 12:22 PM

2018-01-11T12:22:40-05:00

I think that there is a significant disparity between Officer and Enlisted pay. I proposed a monetary incentive for NCOs that acquire a degree, see below.

Abstract
The idea of incorporating pay incentives for enlisted personnel, particularly Non-Commissioned Officers (NCOs) who earn an education degree (i.e. associates, bachelors, masters, and doctorate) is appropriate for today’s military because it addresses the concern that NCO’s need to become educated. Such incentive will improve the individual as well as the military profession by building a much smarter and capable force. Additionally, it will address the disparities in pay between officers and enlisted personnel; which has been a topic of interest in recent years. The purpose of this research is to explore different ways in which the military could improve the education of enlisted personnel, as well as the possibility of implementing incentives for their achievements. The research method of query used included articles, forums, and statistical data. The stakeholders for this research proposal included officers and enlisted personnel working in different leadership levels within Special Operations Command Central (SOCCENT). Due to time constraints, this research lacks data and input from other components in the Armed Forces. Through this research, I anticipate to further discover ways in which the military can improve the education of NCOs and reward them for their academic accomplishments.

Background
"Not a single one of us can afford to limp through our military life on the crutch of limited education.... Civilian education certainly enhances the individual’s personal and professional value and especially the NCO’s...We aren’t talking about an entry on a service record. We’re talking about an individual acquiring more tools, which will assist in daily living and certainly in the performance of military duties."
—SMA Leon L. Van Autreve, “Walking Tall—and Eager,” Soldiers, February 1974, p. 33

The above quote written in 1974 by former Sergeant Major of the Army (SMA), Leon L. Van Autreve, remains true today. It’s no secret that the requirements and qualifications of NCOs have evolved through the years. Advances in technology and the ever-changing environment of war have called for a change in the way we recruit, train, and equip our forces. In contrast to the past, the military has developed occupational specialties that require greater sets of skills and higher aptitude within the enlisted ranks, some requiring a certain level of education, expertise or background experience.
The matter or situation to be analyzed considers whether or not enlisted personnel should be compensated for acquiring an education degree. Specifically speaking in terms of receiving a monetary supplementation that will be determined based on the level of education achieved. The incentive will benefit both, the individual as well as the military profession. The incentive will also address the disparity of pay between officers and enlisted personnel, which has been a topic of interest in recent years. An article posted in The Army Times newspaper in 2011 addressed this issue, but the results remained that if you want to make more money, you need to become an officer. In order to illustrate an example of the current disparity, provided below is the 2016 pay-table. Currently a Captain (O-3) with six years of service makes more than a Sergeant Major with over 18 years of service. Clearly, in terms of experience most would agree that the Sergeant Major is more experienced and probably works at a higher level within the unit (i.e. Battalion or Brigade Command).

In today’s military, the push for enlisted personnel to acquire a certain level of education is strongly recommended and it can affect promotion opportunities. In fact, the 2015 promotion board After Action Review (AAR) for senior enlisted personnel stated that NCO’s need to further their civilian education in order to remain competitive. Furthermore, studies have shown the progression of enlisted personnel who have earned a level of education degree. A paper conducted by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) stated, “The enlisted force is far more educated today than it was two decades ago. In 1985, 30 percent of all enlisted personnel had one or more years of college education. By 1999 (the most recent year for which reliable survey data are available), that share had more than doubled to 74 percent—53 percent with some college credits but no degree, 12 percent with associate’s degrees, 8 percent with bachelor’s degrees, and 1 percent with advanced degrees.” The data provided below shows the evolvement of enlisted personnel through the years and supports the argument that they are far more educated today.

According to an article posted by asktop.net, titled “Do NCOs deserve more pay?” another argument to be made is the fact that education does not replace military experience. New incoming officers cannot easily replicate the knowledge of enlisted personnel gained through years of experience. This often results in NCOs mentoring and guiding these officers so that they are set-up for success in their career. One thing is for certain, officers do have overall responsibility and therefore they should be paid a higher salary. The strategy behind the higher salary is to motivate enlisted personnel to become officers. However, many enlisted personnel enjoy their jobs and as stated before, serve in positions of great responsibility. This research will explore the extent of responsibility of enlisted personnel and determine if the current pay scale needs to be revised to reflect today’s military.

Local Context
Many of the enlisted personnel working in my organization often take on positions normally held by officers. Most of these senior enlisted members possess a bachelor’s or higher degree but are not compensated for taking on these positions. The relationship in terms of responsibility between officers and NCOs in my command is often shared. Both sides are held accountable for their actions. However in the enlisted realm, data gathered from interviews and past surveys showed that punishment for enlisted personnel is much severe than officers. If officers are overall in charge, shouldn’t they receive a harsher punishment? After all, this is why they receive that pension. The above question is not meant to be bias, but it serves to show contradictions within the ranks. This challenges the reasoning for the disparity between officers and enlisted personnel.

Personal Context
I am a 14-year veteran in the U.S. Army. I currently hold the rank of Master Sergeant (MSG) and work as the senior advisor for Civil Affairs Operations (CAO) in the Central Command (CENTCOM) area of responsibility. I advise the Civil Affairs Chief which holds the rank of Lieutenant Colonel or O-5 in the synchronization, coordination, integration, and de-confliction of Civil Affairs plans and programs at the direction of the Special Operations Command Central (SOCCENT) Commander. I stated my duties to provide an example of my position and responsibilities because it’s a billet normally held by an O-4 or Major. This issue directly affects me because I am a senior enlisted NCO that soon will attain a Bachelor’s degree and work in a position that is above my current pay grade. Looking at it from an income perspective, an O-4 with 12 years of service as myself makes $32,880 more (pay scale provided above). Keeping that scenario in mind, a monetary incentive of $1,000 a month for completing a Bachelor’s degree will close the gap by $12,000 placing the difference at $20,880, which is still very significant.

Problem Statement
Today's NCOs are much different than in the past, they are educated, highly trained, and required to maintain constant progress in their military career as well as academically. It was not until recently that NCOs were given the opportunity to take time off from their current duties to finish their graduate level education. However, this opportunity is not offered to all NCOs. In fact, a prerequisite in order to attend is that the individual possesses a bachelor’s degree and even then applications go through a selection process that determines if you are a good candidate. In recent years, the topic of establishing incentives for NCOs for academic accomplishment has been of interest to many of our armed forces enlisted personnel. Sure Officers are overall in charge and should be paid a higher salary because they are the decision makers. But they are also paid that higher salary because they are educated. Many of today’s NCOs have earned their degree and serve in advisory roles and command positions that heavily influence the decisions of officers.

This research will focus on exploring data, ideas, and concepts that will serve to justify the need for educational growth within the NCO corps, as well as the need to incorporate a monetary incentive for their efforts. The importance of such initiative is that the individual will not only get rewarded for meeting educational goals, but that it will also prepare the individual for a career after the military. Furthermore, this incentive will benefit the armed forces because it will motivate NCOs to seek education, ultimately increasing institutional knowledge and becoming a smarter force.
Purpose Statement

This Action Research will examine the development of NCOs through the years, taking into consideration experience, responsibilities, and education. The purpose for this research is to propose a pay increase for NCOs who attain a level of education degree that in turn will enhance the capabilities of the individual and the organization.

Research Questions
1. Should enlisted personnel get additional pay for acquiring a degree?
2. Should the pay be in accordance to the level of degree attained (i.e. associates, bachelor’s, master’s, doctorate)?
3. Should enlisted personnel be allowed the same opportunities to advance in their education, similarly to the officers’ career development model (i.e. Intermediate Level Education)?
5. Are the current incentives for enlisted personnel who have acquired degrees fair?
6. How will such incentive affect enlisted personnel in the National Guard and Reserve units?

Research Design
This project will utilize a participative style research that will involve collaboration from military members who are directly and indirectly affected by the proposed change. Participatory Action Research (PAR), “can be regarded as a methodology that argues in favor of the possibility, the significance, and the usefulness of involving research partners in the knowledge-production process” (BERGOLD, 2007). Using PAR will allow a diverse collection of ideas and concepts to be brought forth for exploration. This method is most beneficial because it gives participants the opportunity to also research and find solutions that otherwise a single researcher could not have found.

Discovery
Much needs to be learned about the execution of such incentive. This will include the gathering of information on organizations that have successfully implemented similar programs. Organizations such as the police and fire department will be a good starting point. This will allows us to get a better understanding on the process to properly carry out the proposed project. We also need to reach all service components to determine the desire for such incentive through the conduct of surveys and interviews. This will help in gauging whether or not we should move forward with the project.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jan 11 at 2018 1:24 PM

2018-01-11T13:24:34-05:00

Just what degree corresponds to being a Grunt? Of a Tanker or Artillery officer for that matter? Even Engineering in the Army is a different world from the civilian side of things. I will have to point out that a Platoon Sergeant with 10 TIS makes more than the 2LT Platoon leader over 2 and he isn't required to have a 4 year degree. You don't get huge pay differences for officers and NCO's at comparable levels until you get above O3.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jan 11 at 2018 2:11 PM

2018-01-11T14:11:53-05:00

I am going to bite on this, Currently a 4 star makes how much a year. They normally would oversee how many people 50-100,000 easily. Now compare that to the CEO of Apple, Tim Cook, who gets a total annual compensation package of close to 40 million dollars. He oversees most likely less than half the people. Now take a Specialist with 4 years of service who is getting a total compensation package of what realistically between Pay, BAH, COLA, Meals, health care for both themselves and their family, life insurance to a police or firefighter with 4 years of experience. The Specialist comes out ahead in most circumstances. My brother in law is a firefighter in large Metropolitan City. His daughter is an E-6. Care to see who makes more? If you said the E-6 you would be correct. Too many enlisted people worry about pay instead of what their civilian counterparts make.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jan 14 at 2018 12:48 AM

2018-01-14T00:48:45-05:00

I don't think we get paid enough, and I think NCOs should get paid much more. SFC Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2020 12:24 PM

2020-07-22T12:24:28-04:00

Why we just go to hourly pay instead salary?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2020 12:26 PM

2020-07-22T12:26:24-04:00

Why don't we just go to hourly pay instead of salary pay?*