Do you think Officers have lost faith in the NCO Corps?

2016-05-06T15:49:02-04:00

We have been at war for over 15 years, on and off the battlefield NCOs make the military function. Former Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel was quoted in an article from Foreign Policy in 2013 saying the exact opposite, he believed that he could rely on the Senior Enlisted more than his Field grades and General Staff.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 3:50 PM

2016-05-06T15:50:29-04:00

That is bullshit. The officers that I served with trusted me as though I was one of their own.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made May 6 at 2016 3:53 PM

2016-05-06T15:53:03-04:00

I would mistrust Hagel for not formulating a strategy for winning wars. If he blames the officers then what is he? He doesn't know crap.

Response by MAJ Rene De La Rosa made May 6 at 2016 3:53 PM

2016-05-06T15:53:42-04:00

Inherently trust the NCO Corps. Trust me, they are through and through professionals who care about the Army. They take orders, execute them well, and get the mission done. Always give the intent; they figure it out with ethical, legal, and moral standards. A truly hard-working group who are truly valued in this officer's eyes!!!!!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 3:54 PM

2016-05-06T15:54:16-04:00

It depends. I lost faith in the 3ID SGM corps when I deployed with them in Afghanistan this past year. They were more focused on beautification projects and lanyards on M-9's than the mission but that is a specific situation with a specific unit. As a whole, the SNCO corps that I have worked within my command have been amazing. The officer corps on the other hand was simply young and still learning.

Response by SSG Karl Fowler made May 6 at 2016 4:13 PM

2016-05-06T16:13:05-04:00

Let Former Sec.of Defence Hagel walk point with a squad in Afghanistan and see if that will change his opinion

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 4:19 PM

2016-05-06T16:19:19-04:00

Just one lowly former O-4's opinion...but I regarded my NCOs as nothing less than my "betters" in almost every regard. First of all, they had served at least twice as long as I to achieve the "lateral" command at Division and Departmental level...in most cases, three times as long. Second, they had done all that on at least half of the pay and "privileges". Finally, after having endured all of the above, they took time out of their professional lives to train a wet-behind-the-ears officer so that one day...maybe...if the fates allowed, someone with stars would have some clue and those decisions would save lives and win wars. Why do we even have officers? Because it would cost us too much in experience and leadership to take our NCOs away from their people.

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made May 6 at 2016 4:22 PM

2016-05-06T16:22:00-04:00

There has been a gap growing between Officer and Enlisted longer than the military has been scrutinized. Frankly I think the entire system is a little dated and the Officer scale should be extended promotions for excellent soldiers. I believe every person in the military should start out and E-1 and be promoted based on appearance, professionalism, performance, and effectiveness in their MOS. If you knew that your LTC and LG started where you are and got where they are by being the best soldier available the disrespect amongst military classes would nearly disappear. As I said before that is my opinion.

Response by MAJ L. Nicholas Smith made May 6 at 2016 4:25 PM

2016-05-06T16:25:27-04:00

No. I trusted my good Non-Coms the same way I trusted the good officers. On deployment, there is little doubt about who is and is not in that group and you learn this quickly. I think there have been a good number of senior officers who were....retired early...for being honest instead of doing the easy thing.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 4:32 PM

2016-05-06T16:32:50-04:00

Maybe it's because I'm still quite junior as an officer, but when an NCO tells me something, I take it as gospel until proven otherwise. They know what they're doing, they're the experts. I fly the plane; they maintain it and its systems, and they know everything there is to know about all of that stuff. I'd have to be an idiot not to trust them, not only because they have so much more experience than I do, but also because I can't imagine the level of workload it would require for me to do my job and theirs, which is really the only option if you don't trust the NCOs, unless you're a dirtbag.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-05-06T17:01:13-04:00

So, does that mean that the GO's and the Senior Enlisted will get into the trenches again so we lowly little peons can occupy the Pentagon?

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 5:02 PM

2016-05-06T17:02:45-04:00

Response by SFC Andrew Miller made May 6 at 2016 5:13 PM

2016-05-06T17:13:16-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member I'm curious about your wording. Are you saying he relies on the senior enlisted or on his commissioned officer more?

Being a former infantry team leader in Vietnam, I doubt that he would bad mouth the NCO Corps.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 6 at 2016 5:51 PM

2016-05-06T17:51:43-04:00

Simple, No Way!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 6:39 PM

2016-05-06T18:39:15-04:00

No, but I've seen many officers try to do the job of NCOs as well as their own. A zero-defect environment promotes assessment over development. Many officers have the attitude of "if you want it done right, do it yourself", then removing the NCOs duties/responsibilities. People want to succeed, but do we allow them the opportunity and inherently accept the risk of "failure"? It should always be an Officer-lead and NCO-run Army. Somewhere many have been pulled away from this philosophy.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made May 6 at 2016 7:39 PM

2016-05-06T19:39:19-04:00

There are Soldiers who are primarily serving due to the financial coercion of the cliff retirement system. This impacts a percentage of mid to senior nco's and officers. Once they have 12+ years they are in too deep and it very rare for them to leave prior to 20, but some of them need to go. This grouping creates some lazy and sorry ass Soldiers that I wouldn't trust. Trust is earned regardless of rank and the NCO Corps is our backbone.

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made May 6 at 2016 8:15 PM

2016-05-06T20:15:51-04:00

No issues from my foxhole...

Response by SFC Everett Oliver made May 6 at 2016 9:06 PM

2016-05-06T21:06:51-04:00

At the end of Vietnam it seemed as though Officers ran the Army. NCO's did what they were told. It took years before the NCO Corps regained their reputation as the Backbone of the Army. I hope they have kept it....

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 9:50 PM

2016-05-06T21:50:42-04:00

Good officers ...
1. have faith in the good NCOs;
2. Give the benefit of the doubt to new, untested or unknown NCOs and
3. Do what they can to correct bad NCOs.

The good officer will then try his best to allow that bad NCO, another chance to excel as a junior enlisted once again or perhaps seek opportunities as a civilian.

The good officers know the difference between being liked and popular and being a good leader. Bad officer (leaders in general) do not.

Bad officers don't trust any NCOs. But that's ok because they usually don't last. Those who do are of the consummate ass kissing ilk who eventually get found out and are treated as the pariahs they are.

Good Senior NCOs, take newbie Butter Bars under their wings mentor and guide them. They do not belittle them (though ... yes I know it's fun) but do it after they've gained some real confidence not that bullshit they confidence they teach in ROTC, OCS or West Point. And never do it in front of your troops.

Response by CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols made May 6 at 2016 9:52 PM

2016-05-06T21:52:35-04:00

I find myself questioning the leaders of NCO's who themselves are not the example. When you lower standards of officer selection, the result will be a lower standard of NCO. My work with Suicide Ideation reflecks this very observation in the last few years.

Response by COL John McClellan made May 6 at 2016 10:26 PM

2016-05-06T22:26:01-04:00

Absolutley not!! Why?

Response by SSG Vik Polivka made May 7 at 2016 8:50 AM

2016-05-07T08:50:16-04:00

I don't think it matters. Be competent, complete your mission, and take care of your Soldiers. Everything else will sort itself out.

Response by LTC David B. made May 7 at 2016 9:14 AM

2016-05-07T09:14:28-04:00

Good Lord!!!. If he truly believes this then he needs to fire his staff and re-staff it accordingly! Then again it could be like one of "those" bullets on evaluations....I was told at a very young (officer) age; don't believe your own press! IF YOU DO, it's the beginning of the end of your career. Stay humble!

I TRULY believe that the NCO corps has a problem with mentoring their junior ranks. Of course EVERY group has a "bottom 5%" but what I was able to observe is the junior NCOs wanted the rank......quickly! But were not mature enough to fully understand what responsibilities came with the rank.....especially when deployed. Their senior NCOs were stretched so thin and most just found it easier to find someone else to do the job. I've seen so many PFC/SPC "assistants" running their tails off doing the SGT's work while the SGT sits on his butt! I'd ask my SNCO and was assured they'd handle it and counsel that young NCO.....only to find out when I reviewed the counseling packet that it was verbal.....which is OK IF it solves the problem. Usually not. Most of the time I would say it was fear....fear of what the junior NCO would do by way of complaints. I can say that almost every NEGATIVE counseling I gave or even developmental counseling was challenged thru the EO office, the chain of command, the IG, or a letter to their congressman. That didn't stop me....nor should it stop them, but I think it might be an issue.

Now, don't think for ONE second that the officer corps is ANY better!!! I DO think that the officers are developed better during precommissioning. It's one of the main differences: I used hear that SGT soandso has a BA/BS just like the LT.....aren't they equal? I'd say no because the LT was ALSO receiving military training almost every school year as well as at least a summer camp, or two! Then he was taught how to be an officer, then taught the officer piece of his speciality......then and only then is he/she put in charge of troops. THIS is where they have the biggest problem! The competition for top blocks, zero-defects thinking, and fear that any negative developmental counseling killed their career got SO BAD that big Army decided to hide their first few evaluations! It helped but there's still so many pencil-whipped counseling packets that it isn't even funny.

We all needed to do a better job of teach-coach-mentor! We liked to say we did, but fear or "it just got too hard" got in the way. I know this isn't a popular subject and I may have hit a nerve with many.....I'll close with this: I was just as guilty and could've/should've done a better job myself. I still carry the weight of failing them to this day.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made May 7 at 2016 9:58 AM

2016-05-07T09:58:36-04:00

Why should they lose faith in NCOs. Officers need NCOs to carry out the mission. NCOs get discouraged when leaders (officers) may not be applying the best logistics and or decisions. I have always found throughout my career that the best officers had enlisted experience. Some officers segregate themselves from the NCOs on a power trip.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-05-07T13:07:19-04:00

If you are smart you know you should trust the Army.
That's the number 1 reason or excuse blame the NCO. The blame starts with the US Army and the people serving in those positions that makes and changes rules and regulations.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 6:33 PM

2016-05-07T18:33:53-04:00

SECDEF Chuck Hagels quote: "I was not much impressed with our — our battalion leaders, our XOs. I don’t — I didn’t ever get a sense that they came down in, enough into the platoon company level to really do what I thought officers should do. And the lieutenants and the captains carried the bulk, as they do in any war, essentially. But it was the sergeants. It was the senior enlisted that carried the weight. I mean really carried the weight. And it was obvious to everybody. And they — the senior sergeants were the reassuring, calming guys. And in many cases, many cases, these were the guys that didn’t fall apart. And some of the officers did. And some of the officers couldn’t read maps very well. And I just — I never had much confidence in — in a lot of the officer corps. Now, there were exceptions to that. Some exceptional officers that I saw and I served with."

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 9:55 AM

2016-05-08T09:55:02-04:00

I think NCO'S have lost faith in themselves.

Response by SGT Kyle Johnson made May 8 at 2016 8:17 PM

2016-05-08T20:17:15-04:00

They better... Behind every great officer, is a better NCO! The best officers I ever served under trusted their NCOs, but also used their NCOs to know the answer to a question before they asked it. A COL we had would come around and visit and ask questions, you did not BS him.. he already knew. Plus, he could stop a PVT and ask about his new baby, by name. He received great admiration from the entire Field Station we worked at.

Response by MGySgt Rick Tyrrell made May 8 at 2016 10:43 PM

2016-05-08T22:43:27-04:00

No. The problem is actually simple as the solution. Since we have been at war so long we have forgotten the basic foundation functions that make the organization function. NCO's should grab the Raines and lead from the bottom up to prove my statement.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made May 9 at 2016 11:53 AM

2016-05-09T11:53:05-04:00

No. They have given up on individual crappy NCOs but not on the entire NCO Corps. Just like enlisted have given up on crappy Officers. We are all human beings.