Do you think "Putting someone on their face" should be considered hazing in the Air Force?

2015-05-04T22:59:03-04:00

When I pinned on SSgt I tried to make an Airman do push-ups for disrespecting me and disobeying an order. Instead of presenting him with an administrative action (Paperwork), I was going to make him do "X" amount of push-ups every hour.

As I was briefing this out to the Airman I was pulled aside by our NCOIC and told that having him do push-ups was considered "hazing" and instead I should give him paperwork.

Everyone makes mistakes and I believe in trying to get my point across in different ways than just handing someone some paperwork and giving them an earful. The only way I could make an Airman push is if I was also doing push-ups as a "team Building" exercise.

Am I crazy for thinking this was rediculous? This is just something that happens in the Air Force, correct? Please forgive me if I was mislead, but I also corraberated what my NCOIC told me with my 1st Sgt.

Sound off!

Response by LTC Stephen F. made May 4 at 2015 11:03 PM

2015-05-04T23:03:12-04:00

If pushups are considered as punishment versus physical training then it may be considered hazing if ordered arbitrarily.
I spent a career in the Army, in the 1970s arbitrary punishment included cut-aways – front leaning rest to parade rest – that was punishment.
However we did hundreds of pushups over the day. That was just physical training.

Response by SSgt Michael Orcutt made May 4 at 2015 11:16 PM

2015-05-04T23:16:38-04:00

I agree, it might not be anyone's favorite thing to do but it is no way degrading or out of line.

Response by TSgt David Holman made May 4 at 2015 11:25 PM

2015-05-04T23:25:53-04:00

The problem is that we as NCOs don't "punish". Also, it wouldn't have really gained you any respect points. Paperwork would have been a good first step, but not just the paperwork, take the time to do the counseling right.

It sounds "touchy feelly" but communications is the key to any relationship, including supervisor/subordinate.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made May 4 at 2015 11:45 PM

2015-05-04T23:45:56-04:00

SSgt Michael Orcutt, Push-ups? CPT Nxxxxx once suggested that my image would be damaged by doing push-ups w/ the troops in a training situation. WRONG! My image held up very well. Now, my shoulders are paying the price for matching all of those, "drop", commands

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 5 at 2015 12:50 AM

2015-05-05T00:50:26-04:00

No I do not, but I know more and more this has been added to list of hazing activities in many places. In the Army, I would say it depends on your environment. If not in the training base, it would depend on the culture of your unit; does you unit use push-ups for discipline and motivation? In the Air Force, I would say I could this being much more frowned upon then in the Army. Two very different cultures as well. But, not... I don't consider push-ups hazing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 1:04 AM

2015-05-05T01:04:22-04:00

Your NCOIC needs to re evaluate their position as an NCO. As NCOs, we have more than one option for corrective training. Physical training should never be considered hazing unless there was no justification for correction. Many SMs would rather take a counseling statement than do a few push-ups. Push-ups are a good disciplinary tool that not only condition the mind, but also help maintain the physical readiness of the service member. Sometimes administrative action will do more harm than good. An NCO should be more concerned about maintaining discipline and enforcing standards and less about political corrective ness. We need to keep in mind that we are the U.S. Armed Forces and not a civilian corporation. If paperwork is their only answer, they need to work on their skills as an NCO.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made May 5 at 2015 1:21 AM

2015-05-05T01:21:31-04:00

I think the problem boils down to the lack of discipline instilled in the younger generation. These kids come up through basic and tech school thinking they're untouchable and aren't subject to pushing pavement once they arrive at their duty location. Maybe this is a result in a change of the training curriculum; I don't know. I've heard the stories about how Airmen won't do pushups anymore as a former of discipline citing it's against regs. That's rich (btw, if anyone happens to know where this particular regulation is located, please let me know). I've always believed in following the orders of those above me and if I had to assume the front lean rest position, so be it. I did it as an NCO myself. I will say this, pushups would and should not be considered a former of hazing. In my opinion, it cheapens how the older generation grew within the ranks. If we made it through without any problems, these kids can too.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 2:16 AM

2015-05-05T02:16:37-04:00

You have to understand its a different Air Force with all the current issues, and political views on things in today's force! Now 10 years ago you might of got a pat on the back and told that is how you do it. But today stuff like that is seen as be littling or singling someone out. Don't get me wrong being Security Forces I rather do PT to prove a point but at the end of the day someone might question your ablity to lead from the front and set the example meaning using supervisory skills to correct such infractions. Do I see why you did what you did yes, but unfortunately it's a different era in today's force. Leaders what the make sure the climate is sending the right message. For example if you smoked that airman and then gave another one paperwork for the same infraction you run into the battle of favoritism and all that other stuff that comes with that. Just my take on your post.

Response by SrA Johnathan Kropke made May 5 at 2015 8:26 AM

2015-05-05T08:26:47-04:00

I have only been in for about a year and a half but I don't think of getting put on my face is hazing, it's a punishment that can straighten a situation out that doesn't necessarily have to put an Airmen's career in jeopardy just because they made one little mistake and received an LOC or any form of paperwork that will follow them for the rest of their career.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made May 5 at 2015 1:17 PM

2015-05-05T13:17:06-04:00

We used to (willingly) participate in activities that are now categorized as hazing: NCO promotion "ceremonies," Shell-backing, gear locker "clean ups," and "wingings" (for NA's/NFO's/jumpers). Usually these events involved physical pain and, occasionally, some bruises. However, we marked 'em up as "tradition." Nobody said a word. I'm hopeful that these ceremonies have merely been pushed underground and out of the watchful eye of the commanders. Why? They served a purpose in unifying those who passed through the gauntlets. Plus, the survivors now had a great sea-story.

Conversely, real hazing served little/no purpose. Youngsters didn't learn a thing from anyone flexing their rank. Hazing resulted in a loss of respect for leadership and created fearful & non-responsive subordinates --Totally counterproductive to good order & discipline.

The punishment has to fit the crime: A young Marine could not pass barrack's inspection. We took away his room for 29 days. So he could have shelter (and avoid a Congressional Investigation), we secured his personal belongs in a conex box and gave him two shelter halves from supply. He slept in front of the command duty hut for the entire time. When he got his room back, he was a born-again Marine. He was the first to man a swab and passed every ensuing barracks inspections with flying colors. He, actually, went on to be a very successful leader --and a great Marine.

We always consulted the SgtMaj and 1stSgt when we handled things like this... not only for a courtesy "heads up" but, sometimes the salty dogs had even more creative ways to redirect a youngster. We didn't burn 'em with a write up. We didn't ruin his career. What we did was found a way to 1.) let the kid know of his unacceptable behavior, 2.) showed 'em a consequence, and 3.) executed a plan to correct the kid's trajectory.

If a kid failed the PFT, I might suggest he drop and crank out 50 every time he sees a SSgt or above. If a kid fails to demonstrate respect for an NCO, have 'em stand by the chow hall door every morning before formation --and salute all NCO's as they enter to get breakfast. Maybe give him a copy of the UCMJ --have 'em repeat its contents on demand. Whatever... just make sure the corrective action addresses the issue... and, ultimately, corrects it. And that is just one facet of leadership.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 1:19 PM

2015-05-05T13:19:28-04:00

The problems arose when young NCOs pushed it too far.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 5 at 2015 3:32 PM

2015-05-05T15:32:10-04:00

And I say again, you Air Force guys wonder why you get made fun of... :-)

There's is nothing wrong nor has their ever been with a good old fashioned "face beating" of 10-20 reps as corrective action when someone does something overtly stupid. Even as officers we would get dropped on occasion for showing up late to staff call, being out of uniform, etc. Most times if I administered a "face beating" I would have the group and/or myself join in after the first few for camaraderie.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 5 at 2015 3:34 PM

2015-05-05T15:34:24-04:00

I thought the correct form of an Air Force pushup had you lying on your pack and pushing up to the sky with both hands in unison?

Tee-hee-hee-hee-hee!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 9:15 PM

2015-05-05T21:15:31-04:00

I don't think it's hazing. I also think in most cases it's a better solution than paperwork. We've adopted such a "zero defects" mentality as a force that we lose good people over one lapse in judgment. I had a brand new Private say something extremely stupid right in front of me a few months back. To give you some background information, as a Company Commander I have a basic level of judicial authority. This is very different than the Air Force, where that authority is typically held at the O4 level and above.

I have no doubt I could have given this wayward troop the ARNG equivalent of a summarized article 15. At my level I also have authority over whether he gets promoted or not. However, instead of filing paperwork this Soldier spent the better part of 10 minutes at the position of attention getting chewed on and educated on why what he said was utterly inappropriate. After being released to his Squad Leader I'm relatively certain he was brought out behind the armory for an additional reminder as to why he can't behave that way. Am I assuming risk in handling it this way? Probably. But I'm also giving this young troop a second chance, something that immediately filing paperwork does not. I prefer to save the paperwork for the repeat offenders.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 9:19 PM

2015-05-05T21:19:03-04:00

I think we need a brown shoes president who will make the Secretaries of the Services high impact calisthenics and bunk with the TI from Full Metal Jacket.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made May 5 at 2015 11:39 PM

2015-05-05T23:39:35-04:00

As long as the punishment fit the crime I say what is the big deal
But the military has become paperwork heavy. Most will ignore problems than do paperwork, so this make the problem worse.

Response by SSgt Joe V. made May 7 at 2015 11:10 AM

2015-05-07T11:10:08-04:00

I don't even understand the words coming forth from your fingers...I realize TACP is a slightly different world (not talking myself up by any means), in which physical training was as paramount as not calling in an airstrike on your own head, but my world when I was in without pushups would have been disastrous and quite frankly...odd. I once was given 1,000 pushups to be completed in front of an instructor before end of day by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member - for moving his coffee mug in one of our classes...that was the most severe, but awesome at the same time because the whole flight would knock them out with you. It was team building at its best, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I think we need some more SSgt Old Schools running the show to get things back the way they should be.

As a caveat, the bad ones should go, and paperwork vs corrective PT should be a known choice by the NCO. We had a couple of them too...

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 11:45 AM

2015-05-07T11:45:06-04:00

That's been one major issue about my beloved AF that I can't stand. I don't want to throw paper at a dirtbag Amn! "Aww Amn Johnny, you made a mistake, Let me write you a letter of counseling and you'll magically get better!"

Bullcrap.

Let NCOs smoke em out on certain offenses. We don't need to start a paper trail that gets people kicked out for some stuff. But the AF considers this a punishment, and NCOs aren't allowed to punish.

I call it a teaching tool.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made May 7 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-05-07T11:58:16-04:00

As a culture for the AF, that is hazing and has been considered hazing since I came in. The key point here is "NCO's do not punish," only a Commissioned Officer can punish. NCO's can train and do corrective actions. Does dropping the Airmen actually retrain or correct the behavior? Nope, not in the least unless his issue is not being able to do pushups.

Response by SSG Christopher Buck made May 7 at 2015 12:23 PM

2015-05-07T12:23:24-04:00

I had a 1SG explain to me, when I was a wet-behind-the-ears PFC that I could either be the strongest soldier in the U.S. Army or I could be the smartest. I decided to be strong for quite some time before I wised up. Push-ups are one of the best teaching tools at an NCOs disposal. It is important to understand that poor decisions and actions can result in pain, i.e. Push-ups, because those same actions in a hostile environment can result in more pain or even death. Keep up the good fight there SSG.

Response by SMSgt Michael Carl made May 7 at 2015 12:32 PM

2015-05-07T12:32:23-04:00

In ordering an Airman to do push-ups as a means to modify behavior is not hazing. However, it can be construed as a punishment if not universally incorporated into your progressive discipline plan. To get around this, set the tone with your Airmen and explain the progressive discipline plan you will use to modify behavior and document transgression. Incorporate your push-ups into the plan as the first step and maybe even a second step before an LOC. I think most Airman would gladly do push-ups as a way to atone for a transgression. It is a quick and easy way to get an Airman back on track without the stigma of having been issued paperwork. In today's AF, a simple LOC can hurt a member's opportunity for a decoration, STEP promotion, Special Duty Assignment, or a training opportunity. And doing push-ups is not only an effective means to modify behavior, it also has the added health benefit of preparing the member for the PT test. You are an NCO in charge of Airman. Do not let politics get in your way. Just be fair and ensure all your Airman know your plan. They will learn you have their back and are concerned about their career and soon you will see less and less transgression if any at all.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 12:37 PM

2015-05-07T12:37:31-04:00

I don't know what to say to this...in one breathe I want to say get tough, and yet in another, push-ups were used at almost every formation. You could smoke me all day long. They did absolutely nothing for me as a re-train in tool or discipline...because us Marines were bat sh*t crazy about thrashing anyone out of line, and as a form of PT.

Response by SGT John Rauch made May 7 at 2015 12:58 PM

2015-05-07T12:58:12-04:00

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? over?

Response by Capt Vickie Adams made May 7 at 2015 12:59 PM

2015-05-07T12:59:50-04:00

This is considered mal-training as the "punishment" does not fit the "crime."

Response by MSgt Bruce Cooper made May 7 at 2015 1:08 PM

2015-05-07T13:08:10-04:00

We fight the way we train. We train pansies, we have pansies who don't know how to fight. It was my army training that got me through 3 tours in the middle east. Do you think the Tban or ISIS are going to allow our members to pull out a time out card? We are doing our SM's a disservice by babying them.

Response by MSgt Leon Harper made May 7 at 2015 1:13 PM

2015-05-07T13:13:24-04:00

Sadly the military I joined no longer exists. I would "verbally council" said airman & since "putting him on his face" is so wrong lol!, start a PT group & let the one who is in the dog house at the time be the PT leader till their "replacement" shows up. Never know something like "esprit de corps" might show up while leadership qualities are learned all while staying within the new softie "don't want to hurt your feelings & be nice rules we're forced to live bylol!

Response by SrA Anthony Mladek made May 7 at 2015 1:28 PM

2015-05-07T13:28:56-04:00

i see nothing wrong with your thought process, I was given the same kind of "realignment" when i got out of line and was better than having that black mark and lowered self esteem of paperwork as a young airmen

Response by SSgt Kevin Hopkins made May 7 at 2015 1:36 PM

2015-05-07T13:36:41-04:00

This certainly isnt good for morale. I dealt with guys that made ssgt before i did and it went right to their head. the main concern here as an nco is keep the team morale up thats how you gain respect and get the most production which in turn makes you look good. if you continually pull rank morale drops and no one will want to work for or with you. think back when you were an airman and an nco did that to you. the whole concept in the military is team work. of course there will be times as an nco when you will have to discipline someone but in my opinion it should be administratively and only after you already tried to counsel or reason with them. your kind of treatment is totally negative. remember just because you wear those stripes doesnt make you better than they are nor does it mean you deserve respect. if i were that airman id do what i could to report you and if that didnt work id make every effort to make you look bad. is that what you want to accomplish?

Response by A1C J Hansen made May 7 at 2015 1:42 PM

2015-05-07T13:42:26-04:00

This is team building at the core. From the military to civilian law enforcement and SWAT Tactical units the more you engage your troops and the quicker you establish decorum the better the overall functioning of the unit. Even more importantly If you can't trust your troops to work as designed and follow minor instructions how can they be expected to protect you, your teammates or themselves when it counts!?

Response by Sgt Scott McGuire made May 7 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-05-07T13:59:26-04:00

As I see it, the Air Force should have PT requirements like the Marines. Too many are lazy and overweight because of the lack of weekly PT. Unfortunately I never really met many SSGT's that deserved much respect. NO OFFENSE TO YOU!!!! What I saw was guys that put SSGT on that it gave them a right to do less. Not to mention boss around guys that they were not even a supervisor too. We did have a few good ones.

Although I don't think it's up to you to make them do push ups, I don't believe a LOR makes much of a difference either. We had supervisors that let the whiners go early and those of us left worked 15 hours or more fixing broken jets. We need to put some discipline and respect back in the ranks. Soon!!!!

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-05-07T13:59:17-04:00

I don't think that is hazing. The military in general is getting too soft. I say if they jack up, put them on their face. There are plenty of airman that should be pushing ALL DAY!

Response by SSgt Robert Iannuzzi made May 7 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-05-07T14:44:12-04:00

Hazing would be telling someone to do something publicly humiliating without giving them a choice. What i used to do was offer the airman or trainee a choice. I can either write you an LOC and put it indoor pif or your can push dirt. Then your not publicly humiliating them, they are choosing their own punishment. No airman worth a shit wants to build a paper trial on themselves and would rather put the work in. If he wants the paperwork, good builds your case to get him outta there.

Response by TSgt John Dias made May 7 at 2015 2:46 PM

2015-05-07T14:46:44-04:00

We used to call it wall-to-wall counseling; and it was pretty effective.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 2:51 PM

2015-05-07T14:51:58-04:00

Army side I have not heard this, however it is a new military with stress cards and shit like that. I will hand them my rank if they told me that crap. It has turned into a different military than the one I joined. Are we supposed to pamper these kids so they don't get their feelings hurt while we train them to kill the enemy? I just don't get it anymore. May just be me and you though. Lol

Response by SrA Diego Alvarez made May 7 at 2015 2:54 PM

2015-05-07T14:54:45-04:00

Going from Army to AF I think that airmen need to be pushing the ground more often.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 3:22 PM

2015-05-07T15:22:20-04:00

Corporal punishment is not the way to correct bad behavior. That is why the don't teach it in PME. I assume you attended ALS if you are an E5. Counseling with documentation is the correct way to fix problems. There may be underlying problems this airman is having. Council and document.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 3:35 PM

2015-05-07T15:35:52-04:00

I am an airman in the air guard, and I know a few nco's that make me do push ups when I make a mistake. Whether it be being disrespectful or screwing up in general. Rather do a push up than get paperwork. It's a shame that this world is filled with entitled children that get their feelings hurt for any reason.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-05-07T15:48:44-04:00

I don't see the problem. they should be able to complete pushups regardless along with the fact that I'd rather do that than be in front of a commander receiving paperwork. easy option to me.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 3:52 PM

2015-05-07T15:52:07-04:00

I feel that's a much better option than paperwork. The lesson stays longer and won't damage a potential career. I have often had received training in this fashion, and delivered it as well. If the location isn't ideal or its something any onlookers can't learn from, take some personal time. Very effective. I'm short in the new touchy Feely service. Thank goodness

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 4:41 PM

2015-05-07T16:41:38-04:00

Yeah SoapBox time boys and girls:

This is where the Army has it figured out better than us. They realize that “paperwork” is not always the best, or only, form of punishment. They also understand that paperwork stays with you forever….sore legs or arms are gone in a few days but the lesson remains.
When I was in the dessert a friend of mine found a young SrA with, a line number for SSgt, asleep at his post (armed guard duty.) Now the flight had been country for 6 months already and had not had a day off in over two months. My friend had two choices (well three if count ignoring it but let’s not go there) one the Air Force way and give him paperwork which probably would have resulted in loss of the line-number and probably destroyed the Airman's career and made him leave the service. Or handle it “Army Style”…….he went with Army Style……for the next three days when they got off duty after 12 hours the dessert sun in full battle rattle…..this Airmen then got to go do low crawls, push-ups, sprints, burpees, or anything else the NCO felt they needed improvement on…..in other words they “Smoked” him for about 2-3 hours each day or until they ran out of inventive things for the Airman to do.

Would I have done the same, I don’t know.

Would I recommend you do the same, I don’t know.

What I do know is that my friend saw something special in this SrA and wanted him to have a chance to recover. But also wanted to imprint an unforgettable lesson concerning the "pooch screwing." I will tell you I’ve know this individual for many year and they have never fallen asleep on duty again….no matter how long the shift or number of days in a row.

And this brings us back to my main point….The Army has is figured out better than us………they reserve paperwork for those that truly need to have failure documented ……..and use “rehabilitative training” or “remedial training” for those that learn without documentation ………the big difference between the AF and the Army on this subject is not the NCOs….it’s the junior enlisted……in the Army they, the junior enlisted, know they “screwed the pooch” and they are willing to do anything to prove they deserve a second chance……in the Air Force we have taught our “children” that they are special and no-one has the right to yell at them and that everything has to proven to the nth degree and documented or it never happened…blah blah blah….

Now don’t misunderstand me i'm not saying this is the best way...but I will say in order for “smoking” to work everyone has to be on the same page…..and senior leadership has to be willing to allow the junior NCOs it has entrusted with the development of junior enlisted to exercise their duties as they see fit……and well let’s be honest The Air Force is not a culture that is readily available to support this type of training.…..not saying that is good or bad…..it’s just not ready or willing to support it(for the most part).

So what was the point of my story……well the Air Force got to retain kick-ass Airman that eventually ended up in the SNCO Tier and took his turn raising our “children” instead of yet another dejected former member who made one mistake.

Bottom-line: Sometimes people screw up....if they good people it does not have to end them (murder, drug-use, wife beating etc aside that is) .....all it takes is one leader to turn someone around and make them a good "soldier' rather than a drain on the system by doing endless reams of paperwork.

Soap box away: Thanks for your time…..peace, love, and democracy to all.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 4:50 PM

2015-05-07T16:50:08-04:00

Reason number 592 I'm so glad to be back home in combat arms. I deployed with a support unit that had a similar policy.

Response by SSgt Raymond Sirois made May 7 at 2015 4:49 PM

2015-05-07T16:49:48-04:00

You were wrong. There are approved administrative punishment, and your choice of physical punishment is not among them.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 4:52 PM

2015-05-07T16:52:35-04:00

My answer to your question is no. Unfortunately, the Air Force answer to your question is yes, it is considered hazing. We were specifically told while teaching at Lackland that unless it is a motivational tool written into your lesson plan with specifics, that we were not to use any type of PT as a correctional tool. It is considered hazing and you will be counseled/reprimanded for it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 5:04 PM

2015-05-07T17:04:14-04:00

Exercise, IE, push-ups, help to make a soldier out of you, and it helps make your brain work and helps with strength. If you're involved in actual combat, the discipline you learned from doing push-ups, KP, or other measures, will make you a good responsible soldier. Be it Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marines, you have to be counted on when it is deemed necessary. If, when you're thinking about joining a branch of the military, and you can't take harassment, extra duty, or exercise because you screwed up, you don't need to be in the military. Doing paperwork as punishment for screwing up, ain't gonna cut it when you're in the boonies fighting for you and your brothers life. I was once turned into my CO by a guy who said I was prejudice against his skin color and I used physical force on him. My CO talked with me about it and I was shocked someone said that. The CO knew me and my standards, and let it drop.

Response by SGT John Wesley made May 7 at 2015 5:09 PM

2015-05-07T17:09:21-04:00

When I was in, it was called "Corrective Action" not hazing.

Response by SSgt Rose Ferguson made May 7 at 2015 5:11 PM

2015-05-07T17:11:17-04:00

I think from now on you have to ask the airmen first if they rather do push ups or get paperwork. I do not see push ups as hazing. Forced to drink, physical assaults, or unlawful orders are hazing. But there has to be a clear cut definition of hazing. What about basic, is that training, harassment, or hazing? If you are a first shirt, you understand "going out back" instead of getting written up. Teaching someone that action was bad is better taught by physical labor then paperwork. Paperwork makes it easier to get kicked out. Plus it's on paper, on document, and can be found forever even after time expires. Paperwork enspires hatred and payback/vengeance. Physical labor gets the point across and in most times earns respect.

Response by SrA David Jensen made May 7 at 2015 5:12 PM

2015-05-07T17:12:20-04:00

This isn't anything new in the USAF. It wasn't allowed back when I joined in 1992.

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made May 7 at 2015 5:13 PM

2015-05-07T17:13:36-04:00

If an airman can't do 10 pushups they don't need to be in the Air Force. You need to be fit to fight so that's just a constant requirement. No reason to wait for AFT. "Drop and give me 10" shouldn't break the bank I would think from "hazing" which I see as sending the new guy out for a bucket of prop wash or camouflage paint or a PAP smear - none of which is like "hazing" where you beat a guy to death on a Band Bus. Your approach comes under "on the spot correction" and the Airman should become better for that correction. Now, if the airman failed to show you the proper respect you can make it a learning moment. Your obligation as an NCO is to explain how the Airman violated "customs of service" and demonstrate the desired behavior. In the 70s mid-level NCOs were supposed to handle everything and nothing went to the Chief, let alone the commander. Then while in garrison, during the Cold War, we all started getting cautious and after Desert Storm we really went into garrison mode and the culture was set. Take back your role and don't bother the old folks with petty stuff. What kind of NCO are you?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 5:19 PM

2015-05-07T17:19:27-04:00

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Seriously? First, You underminded your own authority by doing that. Respect has to be earned and sometimes it has to be the hard way. If you put someone in the front leaning rest what are you willing to do in return?

Look, as an NCO you must carry yourself just a little bit better than you did as an Airman. Furthermore give that young Air Fella a choice. You wanna do 20 push ups or do you want a paper trail? Remember, the punishment has to fit the crime.

Also, do not admonish one of your subordinates before you tell them your expectations of them and learn their expectations of you.

Now, the @sshole in me is going to come out. Your NCOIC should have allowed you to finish the task you started with the Airman. Pulling you aside underminded your authority. I never did that to my subordinates, but I would chew their ass in private afterwards.

Pave your own road as an NCO and drag your Airmen along as well.

Response by MSgt Stephanie McCalister made May 7 at 2015 5:31 PM

2015-05-07T17:31:27-04:00

I'm personally having a bigger problem with the NCOIC preempting you publicly like that, and undermining you with the airman ...

And no, I don't believe the pushups idea was hazing either.

However ...

If your goal was to not put a paperwork blot on the airman's record by utilizing a 'tried & true' method such as pushups, but you were publicly counseling the airman where anyone could hear you (such as the NCOIC?), vs off to the side where it at least afforded some privacy .. sounds like maybe that idea self destructed. So now the airman's publicly humiliated, and going to have the administrative paperwork blot too as this has now escalated up the chain?

Taking a troop behind closed doors anymore seems to be fraught with it's own hazards of 'I said, they said', so it's a good idea to either leave a door open or go off to the side or have another NCO present as a witness, but my point remains, a punishment is only as good, or as bad, as the fallout from it .. sounds like you had good intentions, but the approach failed and derailed for both you & the airman being counseled.

I wished you had a different 'poll' response, but I picked the one that seemed to indicate I had no issues with your intentions, but the execution may have had some hiccups.

Response by SFC Ron Chelsy made May 7 at 2015 5:42 PM

2015-05-07T17:42:29-04:00

Nothing bad ever came from making a soldier do push ups hell, I did more than my share coming up through the ranks.
Besides I know it makes them think twice for what they did.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 5:48 PM

2015-05-07T17:48:07-04:00

I'm in the Civil Air Patrol, where it's considered hazing to use physical exercise as a punishment (the Cadet Protection Policy, which is our regulation that defines hazing, specifically says that). I believe this is a necessary protection because there are far too many kids in this program (you can join as young as 12 and become an Cadet NCO before you turn 13) that would make you do 30 pushups for the tiniest screw-up - the power just goes to their heads. However, Active Duty/Reserve/Guard NCOs are adults, (usually) mature, and are trained fairly well in leadership - enough to know the difference between hazing and sufficient discipline. I also believe that pushups get the point across better than an administrative action for small things like this, and they prevent Airman Snuffy from getting a bad mark on his record. However, if you doled out "X pushups" for a first-time offense, and X was 200, I could see where your NCOIC is coming from. I think it's a matter of moderation. That being said - now you've learned what your NCOIC is and isn't comfortable with. Just hit theme with paperwork next time.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 5:57 PM

2015-05-07T17:57:18-04:00

I spent 17 years between the Air Force and the Air National Guard. I finally had enough of the political bull that I got out. My biggest gripe was the lack of discipline among the lower ranks and not having the support to correct them! Push ups would have been a welcomed tool by many NCO's but God forbid we do that! I signed up for the armed forces NOT the girl scouts!!! Hope they change it soon because if not then God help our military!

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 6:02 PM

2015-05-07T18:02:41-04:00

This is a problem with modern day military, especially the Air Force and Its modeling itself after corporate structure. The authority of an effective NCO has been systematically diminished over time. 1. I'm an advocate of corrective action versus paperwork. The kids these days are very self entitled and have much less respect for authority than my generation ( been doing this since 1986). Paperwork doesn't hurt them they care not, They are more scared of losing a gaming system or doing something they don't want to do. Hence the disobeying of a direct order. No reason though to put career damaging paper in a file over a mistake like that. 2. Corrective action when done properly is much more beneficial to building and correcting an Airman or Soldier than paper work. You can accomplish this through exercise, productive labor, or matching the punishment specifically with the infraction if possible. However don't do it out of anger or Ego. Remember This is not your Mission it's the Air Force's Mission. Do not be humiliating, insulting, or peacocking ( I'm a new SSgt I'm more colorful than you are respect my auth-it-TIE!!!!!!) It is not personal it is corrective. Being corrective do just that , after explain there are no grudges held, discuss the infraction and how it can be corrected moving forward. Do not at this point re hash any beef you might have you just punished the kid let it go. if its repeated then issue paperwork. 3. I've been doing this for a long time I'm one of those old school, pre politically correct, you could still get hit in basic legally, guys. I did two years of joint task force work with the Army on a drug interdiction mission and truly learned from those guys what it is to be an effective, respected NCO with authority. You must be a leader, father, brother, mentor, and friend all while being a supervisor. Its a difficult balancing act to say the least. Those stripes do not give you respect, nor can you demand it without earning it. You said you just pinned on SSgt when this happened. Jumping to give someone paperwork that quickly isn't bold its arrogant. Having just pinned you haven't even learned what it is to be an NCO. A Staff has two jobs one is to learn how to be an NCO, the second is to prepare SRA's to be Staff's. You just did more damage to your effectiveness as an NCO by trying to flex your new muscle with this Airman . Way to go Peacock you are now officially " that guy!!!).

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 6:09 PM

2015-05-07T18:09:22-04:00

I'm an A1C and I honestly believe push ups or body builders with someone yelling in your face is a better punishment because paperwork don't really teach airmen anything. They're just laughing with their buddies after work saying they got an LoR like its a joke. I'm sick and tired of these little bitch airmen in my Air Force!

Response by SrA Ray Hamilton made May 7 at 2015 6:24 PM

2015-05-07T18:24:45-04:00

I assume you are a JTAC. You don't say so I have to guess. There's no real context, but I'll keep going. You are not crazy. You can't spell but you're not crazy. You should be able to yell all you want and give as many push-ups as the situation calls for. A ROMAD recruit expects to be pushed to the next level, and the next. He's preparing for combat, is he not? We were expected to do lots of PT. Even during downtime PT was involved. I remember playing darts, and our PT instructor wanted to get in. So I had just won and he challenged me. He destroyed me. Then I had to do 100 push-ups. This was during our free time! Those were the days.
Ridiculous, Corroborate.
Thanks,
Ray Hamilton
Falcon 1

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-05-07T18:25:21-04:00

I'm not sure how things go in the Air Force, but I can tell you from personal experience the Army is getting an incredible amount of undiciplined soldiers coming into the big army. I in-processed new soldiers into their units, and have been disappointed in the quality of joes coming in. If you can't handle doing some push ups, how are you going to handle combat??

Response by SSG Ronald Williams made May 7 at 2015 6:36 PM

2015-05-07T18:36:38-04:00

I'm kidding...lighten up.

Response by SGT Edwin Claudio made May 7 at 2015 7:02 PM

2015-05-07T19:02:41-04:00

You know, when the Army said you couldn't make Joes do push ups for corrective training my my gears started going. What to do and how. Then it hit. I started using things like 3-5 second rushed, had the Soldier do an APFT event that they were struggling with. But I found the best thing was one on one verbal counseling. Seems a lot of NCOs get big headed and forget that they were once young and dumb. Yes, it's the military, yes it's easy to punish but it's harder to remember where you were in the beginning. Is it hazing? Hell no. Are there other ways? Hell yes.

Response by Sgt Kris Newcomb made May 7 at 2015 7:18 PM

2015-05-07T19:18:32-04:00

I am so glad I got out of the Air Force when I did. I would be in so much trouble now. What a joke it has become now. They need to stop being so PC and grow a set.

Response by Capt Scott Gerardy made May 7 at 2015 7:23 PM

2015-05-07T19:23:31-04:00

I like your idea of behavioral modification instead of tainting his file for a "mistake". I have to wonder what this airman thought would happen by disobeying a direct order. If I remember correctly, the formal consequences are pretty clear in the UCMJ. Although I think hazing is a real thing and can be problematic, this doesn't sound like hazing to me unless it was extreme (like greater than 100 pushups per hour for more than a few hours). Not sure what my opinion is worth as a former officer who never had to be an Airman Basic.

Scott Gerardy

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 7:25 PM

2015-05-07T19:25:45-04:00

Bunch of wussie babies in the Air Force. We started going down hill when Gen McPxxx was CSAF. Has only continued down that hill ever since. Tis not the Air Force I was once so proud to be a part of. I dont see it as hazing. Unfortunately corporate AF ...

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 7:32 PM

2015-05-07T19:32:24-04:00

I don't think that word means what the NCOIC think it means. There is a difference between being disciplined and hazing. The main point is that we use various tools to correct behavior. If the push-up is the most effective tool to correct a certain behavior...then use it. It paperwork fits the mold, then use it. It's called discipline...not hazing.

Response by SSgt Mark McCoy made May 7 at 2015 7:32 PM

2015-05-07T19:32:19-04:00

In my day,a long time ago, we just gave them a crap duty. Something to make them think about what they did. If that didn't work then there was pier pressure. Paperwork was a last action unless the airman was a total lost cause and then it was paperwork as the first action. Your NCOIC was wrong to have brought the 1st Shirt into the mix. Your NCOIC was wrong. You never involve the head shed unless absolute necessary and this wasn't necessary.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 7:47 PM

2015-05-07T19:47:44-04:00

In the Air Force, my opinion is that airmen now days forget that we serve in the military and we are held to different standards. I think even politicians have forgotten this too. Military members are not apart of the civilian workforce, we are special (lack of better term) individuals that wear a uniform that represents the United States. Military members have to follow a different set of rules and laws, UCMJ, holding us to higher standards. I think now days NCOs are intimidated by airmen because they are afraid or not sure what they can do inside of there duties as an NCO to rehabilitate airmen. I don not think making an airmen do push ups is a form of punishment or hazing. If I was told to do push ups by a senior member, I would do so.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made May 7 at 2015 7:52 PM

2015-05-07T19:52:15-04:00

In line with some of what the other folks have mentioned, paperwork isn't always effective. The one thing I have found that works on just about everyone is take away the one thing they value most. Their time. I'm not talking extra duty since that is punishment, but boooooy do we have a lot of things we can train on. One Saturday doing all their required CBT's with no youtube, no radio, and that guy trying to sell you his mix tape...rarely have I had a repeat offender.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 8:14 PM

2015-05-07T20:14:55-04:00

Fuck no you're not crazy. He's lucky he didn't get an article 15 for violation of article 92. Freaking today's AF smh

Response by Capt Jason S. made May 7 at 2015 8:44 PM

2015-05-07T20:44:28-04:00

I see it as an exceptable form of punishment for minor infractions. This accomplishes several things 1st it lets junior ranks know who is in charge, 2nd it eliminates paperwork and saves time to do more important things, 3rd it improves physical fitness for Physical Fitness Tests. I never saw it as a hazing later we all joked about the different form of physical corrections the NCOs came up with for us. It was a bonding moment.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 8:51 PM

2015-05-07T20:51:20-04:00

According to Air Force regs, that is technically not allowed... That being said, I think if other services are allowed to discipline troops as an avenue to avoid NJP and paper trails, then I am all for it. I only hope I could have a supervisor like that

Response by CPT Bruce Rodgers made May 7 at 2015 9:24 PM

2015-05-07T21:24:07-04:00

Wait, the Air Force does push ups? I thought hot yoga was what they use for pt

Response by Spc 1 J W. made May 7 at 2015 9:42 PM

2015-05-07T21:42:51-04:00

I went over 33 years total service the end of March. I haven't seen push-ups meted out as a corrective action/punishment since boot camp in 1982. I did make a young airman weep when I gave him the "dad speech" though. No yelling or screaming. No eyes popping or veins bulging. We went for a walk on the running trail on base and I just calmly laid out how he wasn't meeting the standard and how we expected a lot more out of him. He momentarily leveled off but in the end he wasn't reachable with any corrective method and was deemed incompatible with military service.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 9:51 PM

2015-05-07T21:51:29-04:00

Push ups is not hazing. HOWEVER, Since it is tied to punishment, I could be considered corporal punishment and only a commander or court marshal can order it. BUT, you can "train" your Airman. For example: I was the superintendent and had an junior officer come to me about one of the Airman. The Airman did not salute them and gave an attitude when he was confronted about it. I informed the junior officer that we could do paperwork or we could "train" them in proper customs and courtesies. The junior officer agreed to the "training". I had the Airman and supervisor report to my office with the Airman in full service dress. I chewed out the Airman and then informed him that his supervisor was going to "train" him in proper customs and courtesies. The Airman was shown by the supervisor how to show proper customs and courtesies. Then the Airman had to demonstrate it. He was standing outside the main entrance to the building in full service dress. Anytime an officer came in or out, he was to open the door, come to attention, and salute. It just so happened that we were conducting training briefings that day to a class full of junior officers. I stepped in and informed the class that every break they got, they needed to go outside and get fresh air. Needless to say, after 3 hours of training, the Airman got the point. Sincerely, Air Force SNCO, Retired.

Response by MSgt Daniel Harrison made May 7 at 2015 9:51 PM

2015-05-07T21:51:46-04:00

As a retired Msgt. with 22 years, I think this SSgt went beyond what is taught in NCO Leadership School. Nowhere and never were we taught to discipline our subordinate with any form of physical exercise. Doing the "paper work" is a way of maintaining a written record of an individuals good and bad behavior. Having him do pushups (even if you got down and did them with him) is not a form of positive punishment because you have no written record of his misdoings. You're a SSgt in a supervisory position. So you must always act and represent yourself as a person of authority.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 9:53 PM

2015-05-07T21:53:15-04:00

I retired after 21 years. Push ups is not hazing. HOWEVER, Since it is tied to punishment, I could be considered corporal punishment. BUT, you can "train" your Airman. For example: I was the superintendent and had an junior officer come to me about one of the Airman. The Airman did not salute them and gave an attitude when he was confronted about it. I informed the junior officer that we could do paperwork or we could "train" them in proper customs and courtesies. The junior officer agreed to the "training". I had the Airman and supervisor report to my office with the Airman in full service dress. I chewed out the Airman and then informed him that his supervisor was going to "train" him in proper customs and courtesies. The Airman was shown by the supervisor how to show proper customs and courtesies. Then the Airman had to demonstrate it. He was standing outside the main entrance to the building in full service dress. Anytime an officer came in or out, he was to open the door, come to attention, and salute. It just so happened that we were conducting training briefings that day to a class full of junior officers. I stepped in and informed the class that every break they got, they needed to go outside and get fresh air. Needless to say, after 3 hours of training, the Airman got the point.

Response by TSgt Jonathan Nettles made May 7 at 2015 10:09 PM

2015-05-07T22:09:51-04:00

Those days are over bro. Back in my day (25 years ago) that would have got you climbing the hangar ladder. It brought team work,

Response by SSgt Rodney Groshans made May 7 at 2015 10:23 PM

2015-05-07T22:23:57-04:00

I find it funny that in the Air Force this would be considered hazing, yet in the Army and Marines it is standard practice discipline. No wonder the other branches look at us as nothing but pampered desk jockeys. We need to get over all of this touchy, feely BS. If you are in the military, man/woman up and stop being little punk assed bitches.

Response by SSgt Michael Orcutt made May 7 at 2015 11:21 PM

2015-05-07T23:21:59-04:00

Why do I keep hearing from some that this is considered Corpral Punishment? The definition of Corpral Punishment is:

"Corporal punishment is a form of physical punishment that involves the deliberate infliction of pain in order to punish a person convicted of a crime or as retribution for a perceived offence, including physical chastisement such as spanking, paddling, or caning of minors by parents, guardians, or school or other officials."

Since when do push ups inflict pain? Sure I guess if you send someone to muscle failure you could consider it CP. It's not like I would be taking a paddle to anyone. Why not verbally council them at the front leaning rest position?

Response by 1stSgt Jon Senior made May 7 at 2015 11:46 PM

2015-05-07T23:46:34-04:00

Used to call that an "Article 7 1/2" (1/2 Article 15). As an AF 1st Sgt serving in Korea my next door neighbor, a SGM in 8th Army, & I were discussing disciplinary actions. He asked why th AF did so many 15's with suspended punishment. I replied that it was a way to give good troops a chance to recover. He said that in the Army when they do a 15 it is a max punishment. He said if it was a good troop that just made a bad mistake he gave Article 7 1/2's, where the soldier was his "boy" (details, etc) for a short period of time to demonstrate they had learned their lesson. In lesser cases some "extra" PT or training was used. In the few cases we (commander was in agreement) applied this they all turned out to the better. Unfortunately now it seems the JAG seems to be the ones that set the rules.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 12:04 AM

2015-05-08T00:04:03-04:00

that's the biggest BS I've ever heard. The way the Air Force in pushing "fitness", it IS a job requirement. I'm an airmen that has been in for 5 years and I have yet to have paperwork. I have had wonderful supervisors and have done A LOT of push ups for my mistakes. i don't like this new Air Force mentality. That's why a lot of the newer airmen have lost their damn minds!

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 12:05 AM

2015-05-08T00:05:46-04:00

I feel you should be able to make them at least push until muscle failure, I'd rather look weak doing push-ups than getting paperwork that stays with me

Response by SGT Michael Touchet made May 8 at 2015 12:07 AM

2015-05-08T00:07:16-04:00

Come on this is the military, not day care.

Response by MSgt Hal Weeden, MBA made May 8 at 2015 12:32 AM

2015-05-08T00:32:31-04:00

In the Air Force, doling out pushups as punishment is considered hazing and as such is specifically prohibited by AFI 1-1, Para. 2.2.8. http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af/publication/afi1-1/afi1-1.pdf Our newly minted NCO has committed a violation that could incur much more serious "paperwork" than his disrespectful subordinate. NCOs do not have any authority under the UCMJ to mete out punishment. Instill discipline, yes, impose punishment, no.

I served in the Air Force for over 30 years, and never once witnessed an Airman being placed in the forward leaning rest position except as part of an organized PT program. Not even in basic training. This is simply not part of the Air Force culture. This is not a new trend. I'd invite anyone to read a very informative essay written back in 1981 by a chief master sergeant for the Air University Review found at http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1981/may-jun/mcbride.htm. I'd point out that when this article was written 34 years ago, the Air Force was just 34 years old.

Now, I'm not sure that pushups as punishment is a bad thing. They seemed pretty effective to me in the police academy! I understand our service brethren who think we wing nuts are "soft." However, from what I have observed, I do have concerns that corrective PT situations could get out of hand. Because it is impossible to articulate guidelines that would clarify when such situations are appropriate, I understand the official Air Force position.

There is a third alternative that our young NCO should consider for his wayward Airman. A good verbal counseling session can serve the same purpose. Effective counseling is a learned skill, and one that will translate well into the civilian world when it is time to transition. Verbal counseling can take place sitting in an office, over a beverage in a break area, walking down the road, or in any other private or semi-private setting. Yelling and/or salty language may be appropriate, but most probably is not. Knowing how to craft effective counseling requires knowing your people, along with a certain amount of maturity and experience.

Respect is earned, not forced. I'd be curious to know what the "disrespectful" action was in this situation and what order was disobeyed.

Response by SSgt Barry LaMont made May 8 at 2015 12:37 AM

2015-05-08T00:37:13-04:00

What did the Airman do that required "paperwork" first off and if you're not talking a LOR at least, I would have taken the paperwork. By the way, the choices that were listed should have given another recommendation, as in "Let him pick."

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 12:41 AM

2015-05-08T00:41:14-04:00

Your NCOIC needs to learn the difference between hazing and issuing Extra Military Instruction to correct behavioral deficiencies. Young troops are stupid and need guidance, writing paper on someone for a minor infraction when it can be remediated by EMI or counseling gives them an opportunity to correct their deficiencies without jamming up their careers years down the road. That 30 yo NCO who can't pick up a SNCO slot because of derogatory entries in his SRB probably isn't the same dumb ass 18 yo junior troop who got written up. Be a leader and correct them then provide them with a learning experience and the opportunity of a second chance.

Response by Cpl Patrick Reade made May 8 at 2015 12:45 AM

2015-05-08T00:45:25-04:00

Builds character and teaches the lesson. Anyone who calls "hazing" should check their freakin pants and see what's missing. Kill

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 8 at 2015 1:25 AM

2015-05-08T01:25:20-04:00

This is what is wrong with not just the Air Force, but the military in general! We're so worried about hurting people's feelings and them filing an EO complaint that we'd rather do paperwork and possibly ruining their career rather than a little physical punishment which is kept in the shop (in the flight in Air Force terms).

Make them do pushups, have them learn their lesson, and everyone goes on about their business, or file paperwork and possibly cause them to get an NJP which can hurt their career for however long it may be? Which would you rather do?

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 1:32 AM

2015-05-08T01:32:21-04:00

I think the Air Force has gotten too soft. I can't even do my job for fear of hurting people's feelings. My opinion is that people need to get their feelings off the end of their nose. As long as you don't go overboard, there is nothing wrong with making someone push.

Response by SGT Robert Hawks made May 8 at 2015 2:30 AM

2015-05-08T02:30:16-04:00

Punitive push-ups have there place. There is no hazing involved.

Response by Maj Joseph Osborne made May 8 at 2015 2:43 AM

2015-05-08T02:43:49-04:00

I put who cares, but it's a bit more complicated. I've been guilty of doing the same and would rather make someone's life temporarily painful (if they're an otherwise good troop) than put paper on them that'll ruin their future. HOWEVER, your scenario is played out every single promotion cycle in the AF (and I'm sure other services) when someone goes from being a peer to a supervisor. Without knowing the players and specifics of the case, I'll just say you're an NCO now. That doesn't make you better than Airmen, in makes you higher ranking, which puts you in a position to either mentor and lead or be a boss. My suggestion is to find a good, well respected SNCO, and seek guidance on how best to handle things like this in the future, BEFORE it gets to a point of needing disciplinary action.

Response by A1C Brian Sprick made May 8 at 2015 2:52 AM

2015-05-08T02:52:47-04:00

Being an Airman in today's Air Force during my enlistment, I believe that you have done a great service in getting your point across by physical exercise. I ALSO believe that an airman should receive a LOC for conduct unbecoming of an Airman for the disrespect to the rank in which you currently hold. Was it right to say that you should be on your face as well? Absolutely. The only way you will receive respect for gaining your rank IS by doing push-ups With the airman to prove to the airman that YOU as a fellow airman are in support of his corrective actions by pushing as a team as well as any task given to anyone in your squadron to show that you are not too good for team building actions. This would help immensely durring a deployment.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 5:24 AM

2015-05-08T05:24:00-04:00

I don't think your crazy I feel he have in written rules and someone needs to write them on that we can and can't do. And just put it out there. That would clear up all this BS opinion about the diff between hazing and being a good NCO

Response by SSgt Jay Reece made May 8 at 2015 5:42 AM

2015-05-08T05:42:48-04:00

I personally would never physically punish an airman regardless of whether it maybe pushups or anything along those lines. When I was active I had the opportunity of supervising many troops as well as civilians. I had one airmen in particular who was what I call a minimalist. He did the minimal to get by, he wore two rings, just enough bracelets, just barely had his hair cut according to regs, had a "shaving" waiver, yet for some reason would show up to work with just a goatee. I didnt put up with any of it, he tested me to the fullest. He even took up smoking. Would you know it? He started smoking cigars and attempted to take "cigarette" breaks. He tried to stay out smoking his cigar after I gave him 20 minutes, I had him put out his cigar. He was always late and one time even didn't show up for duty. I had another airman drive over to his dorm because he wasn't answering his phone. He actually had the excuse that he was sick and was not coming into work. Funny thing was it was a Monday and I think we all know why he was really "sick". I ended up taking him to the hospital for sick call (they just did away with sick call after this airmen was booted). I ended up having a personnel file that was two volumes of paperwork, one from his previous supervisor and one from me. I really believe that his first supervisor did not care about this airman and he was really just doing all of this because he wanted some attention. If I had the opportunity to supervise this airman from when he was first assigned I believe I could have salvaged his AF career. He was trying to make changes but it was too little too late and he had one SNAFU that broke the proverbial camel's back and I couldn't stop the avalanche of paperwork that he already had piled up from falling. He ended up being booted out, before he left he stopped by the section actually thanked me for what he said "being cool even though I was on always his ass and kept on him to get the mission done". I think it would best if you picked up Og Mandino's "How to win friends and influence people". It is a very insightful book and not only will you learn how to handle a disrespectful airman you will learn win over those young airmen, deal with others, and influence your way into a great AF career.

Response by MSgt Peter Ross made May 8 at 2015 6:38 AM

2015-05-08T06:38:19-04:00

The AF has considered it hazing for nearly two decades now. Regardless how you feel about it, it is prohibited. As your NCOIC stated, you can do the push-ups with them as a team building exercise. Consider this: your intent is to exercise alternative corrective actions; however, what is to stop someone from abusing their authority and give out push-ups arbitrarily? It is for such past abuses that the AF has determined it hazing.

Response by Cpl Clinton Britt made May 8 at 2015 7:13 AM

2015-05-08T07:13:15-04:00

When I was in, in 92, you had to push with them. The whole politically correct thing, in my opinion is making us a much weaker force. paper work paper work, the only punishment that accomplishes is good people having to get out career shot.

I know, the Old School Way, like the Dinosaur, is extinct. like the Gov taking a parents right to punish their child the way the see fit away

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 7:48 AM

2015-05-08T07:48:14-04:00

Push-ups considered hazing? My dad (a former Marine) used push-ups as a very effective discipline tool when my four brothers and I needed discipline. Today, as a single mother of four children, I line my kids up and use sit-ups, push-ups, and jumping jacks as an effective means of discipline also. I don't have to yell or get angry, I simply line them up, explain what was unacceptable behavior, and they count them out with me. They are extremely well behaved, and we have a ton of fun together. Not only are push-ups a form of discipline, but they also encourage fitness and family fun.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 9:09 AM

2015-05-08T09:09:37-04:00

Unfortunately, this is probably happening across all service branches as we (the military) are supposed to care about others "feelings" now. In the Army, smoking sessions are pretty much prohibited and a DA4856 (counseling form) is the expected standard. Disappointing as it is, NCOs are not able to conduct corrective training as we see fit. Our discretion has been taken away to best carry out punitive punishment. Now we threaten to take pay instead.

Response by SPC David S. made May 8 at 2015 9:45 AM

2015-05-08T09:45:32-04:00

That's what the military is coming to. Saw a little of it when I was in. Personally, I would much rather take the "smoking" over the paperwork. Paperwork adds up and goes on your record for a period but a "smoking" session only makes you stronger.

Response by A1C Daniel Drake made May 8 at 2015 9:50 AM

2015-05-08T09:50:45-04:00

You're in the clear. The NCOIC is wrong. Now why don't you get on your face and push texas into the center of the earth. NY-SIR. TRAINEE. WHERE IS YOUR REPORTING STATEMENT TRAINEE?!?!?! PUUUSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHH.

Response by CPT Pedro Rivera made May 8 at 2015 10:17 AM

2015-05-08T10:17:27-04:00

I think that immediate corrective action, i.e. push-ups, is much more effective against minor infractions. Sometimes you need to embarrass someone in public to get them to fall in line. Part of being in the military is following orders and respecting rank. I see no problem with making anyone push for being disrespectful or disobeying an order. Then again I also disagree with being forced to do the push-ups with the individual being corrected. I think it leads to less immediate corrective action especially since a lot of people do not like the hassle of doing the paperwork either.

Response by SrA Matthew Matheson made May 8 at 2015 10:29 AM

2015-05-08T10:29:36-04:00

As being former AF I was continually let down by their concern in being politically correct over a branch of the military sworn to protect our nation. The AF is by far the weakest of all branches when it comes to respect, honor and tradition. If they are so concerned of political correctness then maybe the AF should consider not being a military branch any longer and become a private contractor.

Response by PFC Alex Rivers made May 8 at 2015 10:33 AM

2015-05-08T10:33:39-04:00

I thought that individual corrective training was was a core part of being in the military.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 11:09 AM

2015-05-08T11:09:21-04:00

Push ups and any other exercise that an NCO can think of is an amazing form of corrective action. Pain has a way of making you never want to do "that" again. I have found that paperwork in the army is a joke. Unless it is coming from a CDR, it wont stick. The pain from exercise not only reaffirms that what you did was wrong but it also helps you out on the PT test!

Having worked with the AF for a while though, I would say that push ups and paperwork need to be done. Push ups because a good majority of the AF are weak and paperwork because when it comes time to do your OPR/EPR's your basically required to give them a 5/5 unless you have paperwork and hard evidence of them committing crimes against humanity.

For those not familiar with the the 5/5 comment, that would be a 1/1 on an NCOER.

Response by Sgt Cody Dumont made May 8 at 2015 11:57 AM

2015-05-08T11:57:52-04:00

Discipline is not hazing.

Response by SSgt Nathan Ollis made May 8 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-05-08T11:58:06-04:00

I had this same conversation once upon a time. I was in your exact position, until I had an NCOIC that was constantly trying to punish everyone with push-ups. The commander ended up getting involved and told us that his job was punishment. Our NCOIC didnt stop, IG got involved and it got really messy...guy actually had MSgt red lined. So it can get very serious.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 11:57 AM

2015-05-08T11:57:54-04:00

The grammar in this post is atrocious and I would put you on your face for posting something that reflects so poorly on the USAF grammatically.

Response by 1LT Richard C. made May 8 at 2015 12:43 PM

2015-05-08T12:43:29-04:00

Push-ups are always step two.. in the Corrective Action Process.

Step one.. the explanation about the deficiency.
Step two.. reinforcement activity to provide a reminder of what may happen if the deficiency continues.
Step three.. bring a buddy (everybody push, because this troop doesn't get it yet).

If they get tired.. we alternate the reinforcement activity...rollover flutter kicks. Rest up..for those push ups.

One of my favorites was as a platoon leader when I noticed deficiencies in a troop, I would drop the squad/team leader. He started pushing right away and the rest of the squad just looked on dumbfounded for a moment. I had to ask them, 'Why are you letting him take the punishment alone when you are the ones who messed up?' They learned really fast to check their buddies, and work as a team. I only remember one or two occasions in which I dropped the platoon sergeant, and without skipping a beat, the entire platoon dropped with me and we all pushed.

The key takeaway is that I don't remember having to ever write anyone up for any infraction of the UCMJ and I only ever had to give one negative verbal counselling statement (off post infraction - speeding).

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 12:57 PM

2015-05-08T12:57:37-04:00

I hate doing paperwork on people as I have found that for most it does nothing to correct the problem. Physical activity or extra duty as a "remedial tool" definitely seems to work better. I to have run into this where I was being told that it was hazing, but did it anyway. A lot of times I will give them the option of paperwork, explaining the possible impacts it could have on their career and informing them that they would have to explain what happened to leadership. After this, more often than not they choose to do the remedial training instead.

Paperwork has its purpose and I will not deny that there is a time and place for it. When you have a troop that will bust their butt for you day in and day out and rarely screws up, paperwork is going to hurt them more than help them. I prefer to reserve this for when the remedial training has been ineffective and the troop continues to screw up.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 1:32 PM

2015-05-08T13:32:20-04:00

This is why the af is getting soft kids who have huge ego and attitude problems and no respect for anyone now. Bc apparently yelling and getting in their face along with putting them on their face in BASIC TRAININGS is considered hazing lol I haven't been in long but when I first joined between but tech school and my first duty station I don't think I have ever done more push-ups in my life lol but yes anything physical like push-ups flutter kicks etc is better than a paper trail

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 3:12 PM

2015-05-08T15:12:22-04:00

I would rather do push ups and get yelled at for my mistake rather than have paperwork filed. Obviously different infractions call for different measures, but in the situation you mentioned, putting him on his face should have been acceptable.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made May 8 at 2015 3:20 PM

2015-05-08T15:20:00-04:00

SSgt Michael Orcutt, I don't think it can be stated any better than did SFC Private RallyPoint Member.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 3:38 PM

2015-05-08T15:38:56-04:00

If the kid has a chance of staying in for a long time, PT him until he gets the message. If he's there because he needed a job, do the paperwork.

Response by SPC Jeffrey Bly made May 8 at 2015 3:43 PM

2015-05-08T15:43:42-04:00

If I complained for every time I got dropped, I could write a book.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 8 at 2015 3:52 PM

2015-05-08T15:52:12-04:00

By Army standards you were administering punishment, and NCO's administer corrective action. As for me I would have been far more creative, depending on the offense. A 500 word manually typed report on the meaning of disrespect is far more insidious and takes from there time. Can't show to formation on time, no problem, pass privileges are suspended, move back in the barracks, can't wear the right uniform? No problem, I will see you at 1700 in the Army Class A summer Uniform, 1730 in Winter PT, 1800 BDU's, DCU, ACU, 1830 summer PT uniform.. I think you get the point, this is corrective action. No need to beat some ones face in the dirt.

Response by SrA Daniel Moore made May 8 at 2015 4:13 PM

2015-05-08T16:13:20-04:00

Wow I wish someone would have told MSgt Raper that, I wore a dirty uniform in to finish a nasty job on an hydraulic mule, and this MAN had me drop and give him 25... I don't see da damn thing wrong with a little physical discipline. This is why the Army and Marines think we are coddled. Thank you MSgt Raper wherever you are today, you help make me the Man I am today. McClellan Air Force Base California/ 1985-87 used to known as "SrA" Moore, Dan "OO"

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 8 at 2015 4:16 PM

2015-05-08T16:16:16-04:00

I was never a big proponent of using paperwork to enforce standards. Mostly because the young troops we had in INTEL jobs could care less about a LOC or even an LOR. A few were not even fazed by Article 15's. Most of them were to busy completing their college classes so they could ETS and get jobs as contractors earning triple what they got paid as an E-3/E-4 often times sitting at the very desk they just left.

I did follow the old adage of "Praise in Public, Punish in Private". I would always call a wayward soul into my office and close the door (with another NCO present) to vent my displeasure regarding their actions.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made May 8 at 2015 5:43 PM

2015-05-08T17:43:04-04:00

I feel your pain!

When I went to boot camp there had just been the rule change that DIs, CCs, whatevers could not physically touch the boots. This was due to a few very visible cases of recruits dying from physical abuse.

But my CC would get right in our face and scream "DO YOU WANT ME TO SMACK YOU UPSIDE THE HEAD OR WOULD YOU RATHER DO PUSHUPS UNTIL YOU PUKE YOUR TOES OUT YOUR EYE SOCKETS???"

Was that hazing? Heck no. Oh yeh. We all took the smack in the head.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made May 8 at 2015 5:56 PM

2015-05-08T17:56:26-04:00

When I was in the Navy there was Extra Military Instruction (EMI). This was given out when the infraction did not really warrant being put on report.

Of course there were ways to get out of it too. I missed a surprise muster on a duty day because I was taking a shower and nobody came into the head and informed us of the muster. I wasn't the only one. So we were given EMI. The E-5 that was in charge of it wanted us to mop and buff the floors in the office area. I immediately volunteered to swab the deck. The E-5 thinking he was smarter than me told me to buff instead. I told him I had never used a buffer before (riiiiight) and would rather use a mop. Still thinking he was clever he said I would have to learn or be there all night.

I was surprised that the buffer had a manual on/off switch, not the hand grip activated type. This gave me evil thoughts. I turned the switch on, let the buffer drag me around out of control until the plug pulled out (E-5 laughing his butt off), then, without turning the switch off, went and plugged it back in. Before anybody could react the buffer wound itself up in the cord to the point it was going to have to be disassembled to get the cord free.

That is when the Master Chief came by. Started yelling at me and I told him I had never operated one before and showed him the switch. Then he commenced screaming at the E-5 for allowing me to touch a buffer without proper training. THEN he called the building maintenance people and proceeded to scream about the buffer.

I got off 2 hours early. :D

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 6:03 PM

2015-05-08T18:03:50-04:00

As a Commander, I've heard of a previous Commander that made guys do push-ups if they came into the office for "I need a quick signature for my form xxx-xx". His idea was that they should have planned better. Walking paper from office to office is not the way to do a job. The real catch was that the CC would jump down and push them out as well. Physically good for both parties.

Response by Sgt David G Duchesneau made May 8 at 2015 6:07 PM

2015-05-08T18:07:35-04:00

Hell, everything is hazing in the Air Force! lol SEMPER FI!

Response by Cpl Kristoffer Mischel made May 8 at 2015 7:15 PM

2015-05-08T19:15:38-04:00

As an NCO I was very much for keeping things in house and staying away from paperwork. I had other methods than just making a boot beat face. My personal favorite was having them throw on a gas mask (myself as well) and run Recon Ridge at Camp Horno. It was something that I knew they struggled with, but for me it was pretty easy. After a couple of miles, we would come back down, sweat rolling down our faces and I would ask them what they learned. Boom, case closed and we would go on our merry way. They learned pretty quick how they could talk to me and what they were allowed to do.

Response by Amn Michael King made May 8 at 2015 7:23 PM

2015-05-08T19:23:41-04:00

Overhead squats (with a PVC pipe) are good exercise too. IMHO, it's only hazing if there's nothing the Airman had to be disciplined for. If he was in line for correction, it's correction, not hazing. Besides, as others pointed out, it's good conditioning. We should do it more, not less.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 9:05 PM

2015-05-08T21:05:13-04:00

(laughs hysterically) "ooh look at me, the mighty E-5! heed my power and do pushups because I test well!"

Why hasn't Terminal Lance made this into a comic yet? GREEN WEENIE!

On a servious note, your NCOIC wasn't advising you against hazing. He/she was trying to save you from yourself.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 9:06 PM

2015-05-08T21:06:43-04:00

This is why the other branches make fun of us.

Response by Sgt Michael Bartlett made May 8 at 2015 10:42 PM

2015-05-08T22:42:29-04:00

REALLY

Response by SGT Marcus Chavis made May 8 at 2015 10:52 PM

2015-05-08T22:52:02-04:00

Man, that's insane!!!! HAZING!!!!???? Am I reading this right. I have worked for three government agencies since getting out. Trust me, I have worked with a number of people that needed to be dropped! Lack of dusting when need be, begets weak minds and bodies.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 4:50 AM

2015-05-09T04:50:01-04:00

I love new SSgt's. Always ready to take on the world. Here's something to consider: We're not the Army. We don't train like them because we don't fight like them. You can call it being sissies all you want, but it doesn't change how we do things. If you try to drop an airman after sewing on, you're going to give them 2 impressions that will do no favors: 1) You're a brand new NCO, trying to look hard and flex a stripe. 2) Your method of discipline is petty.
Seriously man, you can be a respected and effective NCO without raising your voice, resorting to physicality, or having to do paperwork.

Response by SSG Adam Wyatt made May 9 at 2015 9:31 AM

2015-05-09T09:31:20-04:00

Beating a stupid private with a bag of oranges builds character.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 10:15 AM

2015-05-09T10:15:11-04:00

Nope...not hazing. Interestingly, I've worked with the Air Force. I think it's just an Air Force mentality. I think building a strong "professional" relationship with you Airmen and leading from the front and not your desk will mean a lot.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 10:30 AM

2015-05-09T10:30:37-04:00

I don't think it's hazing at all. My old first shirt used to do that to us when he would ask us a question and if we had gotten it wrong, we would do up to 30. I didn't mind it, and besides it helps staying active. In some people's case, get them in shape. For a disciplinary action, I think that is better then giving out paperwork. How else are they going to learn?

Response by SSgt Mark Boggan made May 9 at 2015 11:29 AM

2015-05-09T11:29:15-04:00

These "recruits" today are in no way a soldier! HAZING? My drill Sgt would slap the taste out of my mouth for disrespect. Now we have a bunch of wimps in our forces. You were correct in making him do push ups. Be lucky he didnt get a waterhose to the face as he did them! SMH

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 12:07 PM

2015-05-09T12:07:04-04:00

What I was told is that you do the push-ups with them if you are of equal rank (A1C correcting an A1C) but otherwise it is a lawful order and should be obeyed.

Of course it's this stuff that fuels the fires of laughter the other branches direct in our general direction.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 12:42 PM

2015-05-09T12:42:41-04:00

I think we should just fight all future conflicts and the next major war with paperwork and limited effort. If we just reprimand the enemy a whole bunch on paper we avoid the risk of offending others and hurting feelings by violent hazing. Then, to keep people from getting too stressed, we will limit the amount of actual effort is exerted in fighting and instead supplement it with counseling and resilience training for both us and the enemy. Ultimately, the bad guys will have to take a GAT survey so we will know how effective all this is. We also need to make sure that we only engage in future conflict with those who have a fully integrated EO program, to include gender equality for social justice. We dont want to run into a scenario where both male and female soldiers are shooting (or counseling) only one or the other. It wouldn't be fair to either side if we singled bad guys (or gals) out.

Response by A1C Charles D Wilson made May 9 at 2015 2:06 PM

2015-05-09T14:06:19-04:00

I say..."Give me 20!" I would rather have muscle shape and strength than paper work follow me around. I had so much respect for the military as a whole (U.S.A.F.-Army-Marines-Navy-Coast Guard) That I would have broke my arms doing push ups to show my respect. Paper work can kill a persons career down the road and if one incident of disrespect to an N.C.O. is all the person had: not multiple: then the first incident with push ups may have woke them up.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-05-09T18:16:53-04:00

WTHeck! Please do not come to A Co 777 ASB (ASLT)! Corrective training and soldiering is what we do best! Disrespect isn't even a word! It is a figment of our imagination! We control with a "Can Do" attitude! Look at the definition of Leadership! It has three words that win battles! Purpose, Direction and Motivation!!!!! Wow!!!

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made May 9 at 2015 6:21 PM

2015-05-09T18:21:34-04:00

It really depends on the environment. I worked for some time in a space & missile development program office with a lot of govt civilians around. Not really the place for physical discipline. I feel there needs to be more of an 'old school' attitude when it comes to stuff like this though. In many military job functions, this works great as long as it's not intended to be publicly humiliating. Tact, with stuff like this, is everything. I remember CPT Aaron Kletzing always talking about smoking troops or being smoked for things he did wrong. After the punishment, life goes on and you get a nice burn out of it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 7:51 PM

2015-05-09T19:51:47-04:00

There is a psychological link between corrective training and memory. I don't know why we're being told we can't use it anymore. It's asinine.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 7:56 PM

2015-05-09T19:56:17-04:00

Would we prefer to ruin their careers by making a paper trail, or to deal with a problem quickly and helping them achieve the "I don't want to make that mistake again" mentality? Counseling a soldier/sailor/airman/marine doesn't have the effect that higher ups think it does. You read it to them, they sign it, they never look at it again. What good does it do? By the time they realize they've really messed up, they have too many negative counselings, and they're getting kicked out of their respective branch.

Response by SrA Ashley Hughes made May 9 at 2015 11:50 PM

2015-05-09T23:50:26-04:00

The Air Force gets enough jokes. This just makes it worse.

Response by SSG Justin McCarrell made May 10 at 2015 12:02 AM

2015-05-10T00:02:05-04:00

Really? The United States Military is not some college fraternity. Hazing has nothing to do with making your troops do push ups regardless of the reasons why. Doing push ups males yourself and your troops have better upper body strength than the ones not doing any push ups. I feel sorry for any branch of service that decides to call push ups a form of hazing . Break out the stress cards...lol!

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 4:18 AM

2015-05-10T04:18:32-04:00

No, it's not hazing, but who cares? If you can't come up with another, better alternative, you're not trying hard enough to be creative. You can make someone miserable in more constructive ways than pushing dirt, and there isn't any paper required.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made May 10 at 2015 4:36 AM

2015-05-10T04:36:13-04:00

People in need of correction shall either become smarter, or stronger, and either way is all good for Uncle Sam.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 12:24 PM

2015-05-10T12:24:22-04:00

there is a place for both administrative action and corrective training. some joes dont learn without a little extra pt, and in some cases you may have a someone who continually is out of line and you need the counselings to show a pattern of misconduct. but in my eyes there is no reason to leave a paperwork trail that will follow a soldier their entire carrie just because people are afraid to give a little "smoking".

Response by SPC Americo Garcia made May 10 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-05-10T12:26:30-04:00

Never it helps build character and make one think of that before committing the same mistake twice. If that was the case then we are just a bunch of civilians in uniform wanting our rights and pt when we want, work when we want, making them just as lazy as the world. Then Nothing would get done and we would have a broken military.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 12:32 PM

2015-05-10T12:32:38-04:00

These discussions weaken our military. Now there should be limits to these things, but typically common sense is strong enough in most NCOs to know that you don't push a recruit to death (just suffering). I honestly believe that doing the IT made me mentally and physically stronger and without it, I would not have been as effective in the service.
If anything I think we need more IT and simply evaluate which methods are truly effective for building character and which just leave bad dreams.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 4:51 PM

2015-05-10T16:51:50-04:00

The notion that providing a little additional training could be considered hazing seems absurd to me, however if that's the way things are in your command the easy solution would be to get down with them. It's win/win, you both get additional training together and the perception of hazing should be neutralized.

I used to do it all the time, I always felt more comfortable doing push-ups with someone than standing over them while they did push-ups.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 6:11 PM

2015-05-10T18:11:24-04:00

Im young in the military but, I think if more people were dropped instead of a stern talking to maybe there would be less disrespect and more work getting done. jmo

Response by PV2 Abbott Shaull made May 10 at 2015 8:43 PM

2015-05-10T20:43:21-04:00

Quit being so Politically correct, damn what's on. That is bullshit back in 1988 the said Airman would be build upper body endurance corrective action. Few years before then you could of took said Airman to undisclosed room and done some good "Wall-to-Wall" counseling. Just saying

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 11:41 PM

2015-05-10T23:41:22-04:00

None of the above.... Unfortunately, people abused this type of corrective punishment and now everyone whines when they have to kick out a push up when they screw up. It's now called "corporal punishment" and a LOT of the new Amn want to have paperwork as opposed to the traditional "wall-to-wall" counseling that was the norm in the 80's and 90s (and I'm sure well before that).

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made May 11 at 2015 4:38 PM

2015-05-11T16:38:06-04:00

I fail to see how this could be hazing. Corrective action to fix an error on the junior soldiers part is always needed and when you constantly do the "paperwork" it gets old and loses meaning.
I know that one of my first punishments as a junior sailor, I was a cook, on the ship for showing up late to quarters was to spend the day scrubbing pots and pans. As a cook it teaches some valuable lessons, one is not to be late or your going to get punished and two, it teaches you to appreciate the work of your food service attendants and third is not to be late again, because I was warned that if I was late again I would be doing pots and pans the entire shift, get a formal counseling and on top of that I would spend 2 hours after shift performing extra military instruction to help me focus on how to be a good sailor.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 6:23 AM

2015-05-12T06:23:14-04:00

Give me push ups any day I will do any amount of push ups if it means not getting paperwork that stuff suckes

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 10:32 AM

2015-05-12T10:32:16-04:00

It is ridiculous to me to consider it "demeaning" to engage in a training that builds up someone physically, giving them a real reason to raise their self esteem.

PT is one of the single best ways for me to get to know and interact with my troops. It build teamwork, respect and self respect.

IoTS, in my opinion, was lesser for not having access to these tools.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 11:22 AM

2015-05-12T11:22:17-04:00

Why do so many see a requirement to push with your men as a reason not to do it? Go ahead and do the push-ups! Push-ups are good for you, why deny yourself improvement that you want for your subordinate(s)? Personally a leader who has let a situation get to a matter of punishment has some failure of their own to work on.

Response by SGT Curtis Earl made May 12 at 2015 12:05 PM

2015-05-12T12:05:03-04:00

Come on Air Force, we're in the military! I once saw saw a CSM drop 10 1SGs because they brought hundreds of soldiers outside (In June at Fort Jackson (100+ degrees!)) without water or hydration units. The 1SGs told us to leave our water behind because they didn't want the banging and sloshing during the ceremony. 10 minutes into the formation, soldiers started dropping like flies.

After the formation, the CSM called all the 1SGs up front and dusted them off behind the bleachers. 10 years later, even in winter, I *always* make sure my soldiers have water. Consider that a lesson learned.

Response by LCpl Chris Shriver made May 12 at 2015 12:33 PM

2015-05-12T12:33:13-04:00

Being on the quarter deck is not a bad thing. Its a means of motivation that's worked for millions of troops.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 12 at 2015 4:50 PM

2015-05-12T16:50:37-04:00

Soldiers do push-ups ! That's beyond believable the poor fragile things....perhaps you should just have asked him nicely.......

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 12 at 2015 5:18 PM

2015-05-12T17:18:24-04:00

If you can't make the troops do push ups, then the military has become soft.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 12:42 PM

2015-05-13T12:42:57-04:00

Just make sure your leading them in push-ups and not watching from behind your desk. If you get what I mean. I do this all the time.

Response by MSgt Paul Anderson made May 13 at 2015 1:45 PM

2015-05-13T13:45:41-04:00

The AF as a whole is lacking in instilling physical discpline , such as, "drop and give me 20", from dai one in basic trainingand in teaching NCO leaderahip skills. Unfortunately, our leadership starting with First Sgts and the entire chain of command. They will not or are scared to back up NCO's in situations like this. There is a "Chair Force " mentality that destroys any real military chain of command. I have been in a position, during a joint service op in Korea some years ago where I had several Marines under me. When they screwed up, I did drop them for 20. A W-4 tried to help me, but all he got from me for his trouble was an invitation to joins us. Yes, I did them too. The mor operations outside the wire, the more there is a need for instant discline and back talk and disrespect has no place. Your NCOIC was weak for not backing you up, and you were wrong for wanting the Aiman to do these every hour. If the corrective action does not take, on the first try, then you lay the paperwork on them. You cannot keep punishing them for the same offense. But, then I am old school. Remember, punishment is forma real offense, not something a new junior NCO just decided to whine about. You reputation will precede you in these matters.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 1:52 PM

2015-05-13T13:52:24-04:00

One of our guys was late to a return flight from an off-station to our deployed location. After he eventually got picked up a few days later, his punishment was to carry around a 20lbs (-ish) kettlebell for a week...everywhere he went. Everywhere, all the time. It was hilarious for all parties, and he probably won't be late to the plane again. Not exactly physical training, but definitely in the same ball park, and way less asinine than paperwork.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-05-13T14:47:56-04:00

I would rather do flutter kicks or sit in the push up position than to get paperwork.

Gosh darn it we are becoming a weak military if things like this are bothering people and it's not "Politically Correct". Such Bullshit.

I would've made him do more because an NCOIC got involved.

I mean, DO NOT ABUSE your authority, but I would have definitely chose your path.

Response by MSgt Mark Morello made May 13 at 2015 2:48 PM

2015-05-13T14:48:16-04:00

Being "put on your face" is a big thing in the Army and Marines. It's never been a "normal" thing for the Air Force. The Air Force way has always been to write someone up. As an Air Force NCO the only time I ever made any of my people do push ups was in Haiti. As we passed a small group of Army guys, a couple of the younger folks were being made to do push ups for some offense or other which we didn't witness. Two of my guys laughed about it. I put them on the ground to match the Army guys one-for-one. That was the last time they laughed at anyone for being made to do push ups as a disciplinary measure. But it's very much out of the ordinary for the Air Force to be made to do push ups.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 2:52 PM

2015-05-13T14:52:04-04:00

I say make them push until muscle failure. They are soft now days. Smh

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 2:53 PM

2015-05-13T14:53:12-04:00

Do I think it is hazing definitely not but with that said if you are using it as a smoke session instead of a wake up so they will think then yes it could be. There is nothing wrong with haveing a Soldier do a few push-ups to get thier attention but don't go overboard or you may find yourself in trouble.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 3:41 PM

2015-05-13T15:41:55-04:00

I'm a firm believer in corrective training over paperwork (counseling) for soldiers. Minor to medium issues get corrected by doing some push ups and what not here and there. More serious matters get put in writing and in the SMs counseling packet. I personally don't think smokin somebody is "hazing" unless you are continuously doing it to the same person for no legitimate reason. (I.e they are new, the only PVT in the squad etc.) Push ups and stuff are A tool for on the spot corrective action but not the ONLY tool.

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made May 13 at 2015 4:03 PM

2015-05-13T16:03:07-04:00

I couldn't agree with SFC Michael Fischet more!

I don't feel that pushing are or should be considered hazing at all. I've done my fair share.

And, any "milk drinker" that can't handle doing push-ups because they screwed up in any manner shouldn't be allowed to wear the uniform of the United States Armed Forces.... Because they are obviously weak in mind and body.

Forget all the political correctness. I'm not worried about hurting anyone's poor little feelings.

Do you think our enemies are? NO!

And, bluntly, it's not below or beyond me to get down and dirty and push down the ground just to prove a point.

I think the American society, the one WE here protect, needs to ditch their desire for immediate gratification, political correctness, whiny-don't-hurt-anyone's-feelings, sense of entitlement attitude and face the facts. They need to realize and understand that when a young man or woman enlists in any branch of the military they are entering the profession of arms. That means all things potentially violent.... Direct and indirect fires, maneuver, hand to hand combat, stick in and stabb'in, cussing, spitting, blood, guts, cold death and blowing stuff up.

It's also means, in the right time and place, a certain bearing and comportment of manners with chivalrous demeanor. It means empathy and compassion. It means intellectual agility and capacity above many common levels. Living by an ethos and creed. Dedication. Commitment. Integrity and trustworthiness. And, more "warm and gentle" traits.

In my opinion, in the profession of arms, there is a balance needed between blade and beauty.

And... In order to keep that blade razor sharp there is a need for push-ups!

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 4:08 PM

2015-05-13T16:08:09-04:00

Noooooo way. I remember being dropped hundreds of times by myself with everyone watching.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 5:19 PM

2015-05-13T17:19:17-04:00

Physical conditioning will better that individual's personal fitness and keep paperwork out of his file. Pushing till he pukes or collapses would be hazing but it is obvious that was not your intent.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 6:01 PM

2015-05-14T18:01:54-04:00

I am Airman and I have seen firsthand what a couple of pieces of paperwork can do to your career. You may not necessarily be kicked out, but after Airman be come NCO's and start looking towards special duties or other jobs such as Instructors, MOC positions and Supers. They will pick the "clean" Airman every time. I would much rather be put on my face than start a paper trail.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 5:29 AM

2015-05-15T05:29:51-04:00

as long as you give them the option between the two it isn't hazing, at the point its more of a choice, I rather do push ups all day, not only will they more likely do well on their next PT test They don't have a paper trail and you can keep it on the lowest level. That is a good thing.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-05-15T08:53:31-04:00

Respect is not demanded, it is earned. As far as it being hazing, its not. If you are really not into handing out paperwork (which is the knee jerk response by most new NCOs), may I suggest that instead of one person doing pushups, have everyone do pushups (even you). This way, no one can really consider it hazing. It will build moral. The airman that disrespected you would feel bad that he is the reason everyone has to do pushups and hopefully your airman will begin to respect you. There is always a better way to doing things. This is how I would handle it. Everyone is different.

Response by SGT Richard H. made May 18 at 2015 7:14 PM

2015-05-18T19:14:02-04:00

I think that if you're someone who considers "corrective" pushups to be hazing, maybe the Military isn't for you.

Hopefully, there's a policy writer or two reading this.

Response by MSgt Brian Welch made May 18 at 2015 7:23 PM

2015-05-18T19:23:01-04:00

IMHO it's only hazing if done for no purpose but to haze. If it's done as some form of punishment then it's just that a punishment and the merits of that could be argued separately. Quite frankly, with a PT program and all, doing a few pushups shouldn't be a very successful form of hazing or punishment.

Response by SPC Daniel Bowen made May 18 at 2015 7:52 PM

2015-05-18T19:52:24-04:00

I am former Army Infantry so of course I will say "heck no its not wrong". Lets be honest, we as humans tend to learn more effectively when we are physically challenged rather than "speed reading a form and signing it". Hard work builds character and respect well earned. As you said we all make mistakes, so let us reprimand in ways that we do not forget yet we come to respect.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made May 26 at 2015 4:37 AM

2015-05-26T04:37:03-04:00

As long as we're in the Army, and not the cub scouts push-ups are a way of life!

Response by Cpl Alan LaMar made Jun 6 at 2015 4:21 AM

2015-06-06T04:21:12-04:00

Intensive training is a valid form of dicipline and physical training.
no matter what branch. If a senior NCO or officer says push.. no questions. Just push.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 11:15 AM

2016-01-04T11:15:50-05:00

Same thing happens in the Navy. Then the paperwork gets lost. Then people wonder why things are the way they are in the military now.

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Jan 4 at 2016 11:17 AM

2016-01-04T11:17:22-05:00

Any NCO that believes corrective action is hazing is what is wrong with the military today. A unit without discipline or NCO's unwilling to bring discipline, is a unit that demonstrates that it is incapable of completing its mission.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 11:32 AM

2016-01-04T11:32:12-05:00

It builds character. It builds fitness. Weather you like it or not, it builds cohesion. Spend some time in the suck with a group of people and you tend to bond. I was light on a ruck once. You can bet your last nickel that will never happen again.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-01-04T11:47:42-05:00

Ok, wait a minute is this a article that is comedic in nature? Tell me this NCOIC did NOT pull you aside and tell you to give them 'paperwork'..Please respond back that this isn't farcical....because if it is NOT, and you are serious, this NCOIC needs to 'beat his/her face' as well...come on now. EVERYONE PUSH TIL I GET TIRED....

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 12:05 PM

2016-01-04T12:05:11-05:00

I don't consider push ups hazing. I know when I first joined the army on a few occasions there were times we got "smoked". So and so in the your squad was late or forgot something or left some unsecured in the motorpool etc... makes you think twice to check each other because it came with a lesser fun detail! Pledge a frat or sorority in college and I can almost promise your going to push ups:)

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jan 4 at 2016 12:16 PM

2016-01-04T12:16:24-05:00

Absolutely not hazing in my mind if it is warranted. If they are doing pushups because they searched for a reason to make him do pushups then yes it is hazing. All this young airman will get from paperwork is that he will take the paperwork, wad it up and work it till it is soft and take it to the Cadillac for other lower body uses. However, he will remember that when he screws up again he will associate the pain of pushups with the action and won't do it again. Things have gotten too soft with this paperwork stuff. I have to admit I had to administer a lot of paperwork when I was a commander because the lawyers wouldn't allow the other. When I was an E-4, I had a Chief (E-9) light up my world because I was 10 seconds late to his roll call...guess what...I was never late again to anything in my career if it was within my control. In my mind, not as effective as having a SNCO in the chain of command discipline...they will sometimes blow off a commander (not publicly) but they see and work for the SNCO everyday and will respect the authority of the position.

Response by SrA Will Reed made Jan 4 at 2016 12:31 PM

2016-01-04T12:31:43-05:00

Catering to these soft ass kids....so glad I was in during a time when it was their JOBto make a man out of you and fuck your feelings! If they can't handle it on a controlled environment, how in the hell are they going to make it at all!?!

Response by CPL David Martin made Jan 4 at 2016 12:59 PM

2016-01-04T12:59:05-05:00

We started getting pansies about 1993-94 when they changed Basic to a more friendly, less stressful environment. They were disrespectful turds.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 1:08 PM

2016-01-04T13:08:43-05:00

That's bull. However I know that in the army if I make a mistake I pay with push ups. I think that's a great way of reinforcing something you're trying to get across. It's not hazing.

Response by SSgt M B made Jan 4 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-01-04T13:18:05-05:00

I always hated writing paperwork. With the exceptions of TACP, PJ's, and a few other specialized units, the Air Force is a bunch of pussies. I left after 13 years because the "kinder, gentler, in touch witb ypur feelings" bullshit got too out of hand. Pretty sure that it's the MILITARY, or at leaat it used to be. When an airman can fail 9 PT tests in a row and blame it on different new "medical problems" that just magically appeared, and then blame a supervisor for the lack of performance of the airman, thats a load of crap. Especially when the airman can be seen in the break room LITERALLY eating a dozen donuts in a single sitting followed by burger king for lunch and the supervisor cant hurt his little fat ass feelings because its a kinder, gentler Air Force. Like i said, the vast majority of the Air Force is nothing but pussies.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 4 at 2016 1:48 PM

2016-01-04T13:48:57-05:00

The Romans were much meaner than us. Sometimes if an Roman Army lost they killed every 10th man.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Jan 4 at 2016 2:17 PM

2016-01-04T14:17:17-05:00

I guess this is on par with the old days of assigning someone to the deep sink for the day because they showed up late for muster or failed uniform inspection before starting their shift.
I think in 1999 when I was stationed onboard TR I was told to document the deep sink assignment with paperwork to cover my actions. I know that the paperwork is good documentation but sometimes I think you still need to take swift and appropriate action to correct deficiencies, however in our PC correct world it seems we have to be kinder and more gentle.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 3:44 PM

2016-01-04T15:44:10-05:00

I think counseling is the best first step in any case of insubordination. Although the preferred second step is a work detail, I do not think that a moderate amount of physical punishment is hazing. I think that if its more than they can do, then yes it would be hazing. I think people have gone overboard in defining hazing. I think that that paperwork for other than chronic unsuitability is the worst consequence of all--one Art 15 can deep-six a career. (a counseling statement that is not a permanent record OK) Ironically the anit-haziing sentiment could be causing more potentially good soldiers to be kicked out. As always, the best prevention of any of these problem is good leadership all the time and making your soldiers feel that they are part of the team and have input and continual mentoring of them.

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Jan 4 at 2016 4:02 PM

2016-01-04T16:02:21-05:00

The fact that there are 12% (so far) responses to "You jerk! You're (grammatical correction to "your") diminishing their self-esteem!" Is whats wrong with today's military

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 4:57 PM

2016-01-04T16:57:29-05:00

This is what is worng with our military today NCO have no power anymore

Response by SPC David S. made Jan 4 at 2016 4:58 PM

2016-01-04T16:58:15-05:00

The ideal of this being hazing is nuts. What if you sent a SM to the range to police brass, help shake out chutes or help change out the fuel bladders in a C-130. I would bet the SM would rather do 500 push up than do any of the other details.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 5:13 PM

2016-01-04T17:13:21-05:00

Having not been in an AFI-defined position of leadership, and only having been an unofficial, situational leader, I can't comment on the effectiveness of both methods side-by-side from the view of using them on a subordinate. What I am very well versed in, is being on the receiving end of both types of punishment. There is absolutely no question in my mind that some good old motivational PT is the most effective method of getting messages across to young junior enlisted.
My reason for this is my current NCOIC, dare I say one of the best SNCOs, Airmen, and human beings I have ever worked for. Having a background that began in AFSOC, he has a very simple policy that he leaves up to anyone that fails in their duties. You have the choice of paperwork from him, or no paperwork, and instead get to meet at a time, location, and in uniform of his choosing, to PT with him until he is done with you. Believe you me, he is an extremely creative man at breaking down the human body, and I have yet to meet anyone that has kept up with his workouts. He will make you pay for any wrongdoings you have committed in blood, sweat, and tears, but you come out on the other side with far more respect for your leaders and wingmen than if you simply had to sign a piece of paper, and file it away never to be seen again, or thought about until far later, potentially after having received even more paperwork for the same issues.
A brief anecdote about his methods:
Long story short, he did not like the way we were handling business throughout the shop. He quietly made mental notes on how long certain tasks took to accomplish. The icing on the cake was when someone committed a grave mistake, potentially damaging equipment, through sheer negligence. He then gathered every E4 and above in the shop, and had us don full battle rattle in our ABUs. What followed was an hour long montage of TEAM Push ups, TEAM flutter kicks, a TEAM 3k up and over hills, long grass, and munitions storage igloos, and TEAM 4-square lifts. You notice I emphasize TEAM a few times, because if even one person lagged behind, or failed to participate, we started over from the beginning. And then, the most important part, was that after he smoked the dogshit out of us, while doing every single exercise alongside us, THEN he mentored us, earnestly and truthfully, because he knew we would listen, and take it to heart after some sacrifice. As a future leader, I have learned that there's no greater motivation to some people than seeing their superior sweating, and getting dirty right alongside them.
A Boss commands from the rear, a leader commands from the front.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 5:19 PM

2016-01-04T17:19:39-05:00

There is a time and a place for paperwork and then there is the quick fix. 2015 is the year everyone became so sensitive. Even the military. Hazing is one thing but having a subordinate doing push ups as a corrective action is another. I remember the days of being late and then having to report to CQ or Staff Duty every hour until X hour in the right uniform prescibed by the previous hours report. I never felt hazed, I made Damn sure not to be late. This new generation is about killing trees and making soldiers counseling packets a mile long. I feel and this is just my opinion if the offense warrants an AR-15 put it on paper, if the young troop needs a reality check and bounced back in his or her place then do it. No need for paperwork there.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Jan 4 at 2016 6:15 PM

2016-01-04T18:15:46-05:00

I don't know what goes on in AF basic because I never had to go, but after 10 years active as a flyboy, the only airmen I saw drop were Security Forces. Problem is that many of the NCOs are just as immature as the non-NCOs and would go overboard with this. They also offend easily, so if a Tech strolled by and saw a Staff effing off and said drop, he'd go whine to the MSgt about how HE felt disrespected as a NCO. If it's not ingrained into to collective psyche of the service, I can see where the potential for abuse arises. Now as a Jarhead, it was automatic for me. I'd bust out whatever over a charge sheet or digging a machine gun pit (per regulation) with a MRE spoon...you know, Extra Military Instruction. As a SSgt, you should know by now that people follow rules and regulations when it helps them out and people are fully aware of what they DON'T have to do. If it's not permitted by regulation (and the Air Force has tons of them, I've spent many a night reading them before checking YES on a paper) and everyone isn't doing it from top to bottom, then yes, they can call it hazing, especially if only non-NCOs are subject to pushing.

Response by SrA David Steyer made Jan 4 at 2016 6:24 PM

2016-01-04T18:24:21-05:00

I wish we were able to. I'd rather do some push ups instead of paperwork. I'm sure both paperwork is abused, and putting someone on their face could be abused, but found it funny that an MTI (like a DI or DS) was able to do it in basic training, but why not a regular NCO outside of Basic Training? Oh and I hate the term operational/permanent party/etc too while I am at it.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Jan 4 at 2016 6:56 PM

2016-01-04T18:56:36-05:00

Oh horsecrap. Pain is temporary, paperwork is forever. There seems to be a massive amount of wussification in the world these days. I had a young man tell me, not long before I retired last year that the human body was not designed to work more than 8 hours a day. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 7:04 PM

2016-01-04T19:04:18-05:00

I have come across the same thing in the Army - yet I can remember my team SGT doing the same as I was an E2 vividly. It should be tempered with no malice shown, though it really depends on the given situation. Disrespect=push-ups or front-back-go's in my book.

Response by PO3 William Weaver made Jan 4 at 2016 8:47 PM

2016-01-04T20:47:56-05:00

Push ups teach you a lesson...when you are too young and arrogant to understand "that paperwork" follows you through your career and can ruin you...just when you are finaly mature enough to understand. You will thank me in the future.

Response by TSgt Jennifer Disch made Jan 4 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-01-04T20:49:51-05:00

Nope.

Response by CW2 Louis Melendez made Jan 4 at 2016 8:52 PM

2016-01-04T20:52:43-05:00

No offense but this is why a lot of people don't look at the AF with good eyes. Political correctness should not be tied with Armed Forces. If you are butt hurt because something like this and you deserved it, YOU NEED TO GET THE HELL OUT TO DO SOMETHING ELSE FOR LIFE. I'm in shock with this discussion and the one about how the AF deals with marksmanship (basically none). SMH

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2016 10:07 PM

2016-01-04T22:07:37-05:00

Should be able to. Just my opinion I'm tired of pussys in the
Military

Response by PO3 David Davis made Jan 4 at 2016 10:35 PM

2016-01-04T22:35:00-05:00

This is Bullshit. I would rather do push ups than have Dumb shit in my record.

Response by PO3 David Davis made Jan 4 at 2016 10:36 PM

2016-01-04T22:36:28-05:00

Can we dig up the WW2 Generation and put them in charge.

Response by SFC D Riley made Jan 5 at 2016 12:45 AM

2016-01-05T00:45:24-05:00

Are you aware that this picture is of a push-up competition between a (now) MSGT and his troop (From 2010)?
Imagine his surprise when this came up in his media feed. As another Service Member in the USAF I would expect there would have been a bit more in the way of professional regard when it comes to images used for these types of articles by this author.
-Concerned SM

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2016 2:43 AM

2016-01-05T02:43:44-05:00

I give the option. Push-up, sit ups, iron maidens or they can get paperwork.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2016 4:22 AM

2016-01-05T04:22:15-05:00

No, I do not think this is appropriate. A desk drawer LOC or something might be the solution. Putting someone on their face is not going to make them a good future Airman. Corporal type punishments only do one thing and that is to exude a response for a specific type of behavior. It may change the behavior in the short term but it will not do anything in the long hall.

If the airman is indifferent he will be indifferent even if you give him push ups. If you have legitimate authority over him then a write up maybe the best thing for him. It will get him highlighted to higher authority like the SQ/CC. We had a girl in my former AD squadron who thought she was too cool for school. She copped an attitude all of the time. Eventually she got to meet the commander one on one. After that she pulled her head out. Now she is a SSgt just like you and looks to be going places. But there were a lot of us who wrote her off. I thoght she was on her way out, she managed to fix herself. On the same side there are going to be those that no one will mend, and that is when you show them the door.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2016 7:16 AM

2016-01-05T07:16:35-05:00

That NCOIC who undermined your authority is a part of the problem l with the Air Force.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-01-05T12:43:21-05:00

It's military wide. This is why so many shit bags are now leaders. If this doesn't change the military is doomed

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2016 4:33 PM

2016-01-05T16:33:58-05:00

That is absolutely ridiculous. Now, my vote is to continue to drop them. I have found (through multiple personal experiences) that the pain of having to do "Corrective training" ingrains a lesson much faster than a negative counseling statement. Because it is easier to remember the pain of a lesson than a random piece of paper floating around.

Response by PFC Michael Santoro made Jan 6 at 2016 9:23 AM

2016-01-06T09:23:06-05:00

I have been out of the Army for over 20 years and can still hear "front lean and rest position move!" I am thankful I was 'smoked' a ton with due to my big mouth

Response by SFC Stephen Pointer made Jan 6 at 2016 10:14 AM

2016-01-06T10:14:15-05:00

I always got down with any Soldier I dropped. Partly out of respect for the individual, partly because a little exercise never actually hurts, partly to acknowledge that if a Soldier is failing to maintain military bearing that as an NCO I share responsibility for that failure, and partly to forestall any complaints that might lead to someone filing a hurt feelings report.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 11:37 AM

2016-01-06T11:37:31-05:00

Make them do 5 push ups. Let them rest a couple minutes. Make them do 5 more push ups. Drag it out. Push ups are not hazing. Whoever joined the military and thought they would never do push ups for punishment is an IDIOT. I don't do paperwork for minor infractions, I have things to do!!! So I make them push. Or I come up with something else. Taking their free time is good to. As long as your within your regulation of corrective action your good to go!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 12:27 PM

2016-01-06T12:27:19-05:00

Making a Soldier or Airman do pushups for messing up is not hazing. It is called corrective training. I don't know when or why we got away from this as it seemed to work pretty well. Doing paperwork is more time consuming and if all you do is paperwork then eventually the subordinate grows numb to that. The only time physical activity can be considered hazing in my book is if you make someone do it for no reason and you make them do things you wouldn't do.

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Jan 6 at 2016 1:14 PM

2016-01-06T13:14:46-05:00

I have always felt that reinforcing standards that also improves physical stamina is an EXCELLENT way to assist people in remembering. I distinctly recall a DI walking across our stomachs while he explained the extreme care that our rifles required of us, in that one member of the platoon had dropped said M14 during an exercise. I gained immense respect for strong abdominal muscles, understanding of the necessity of keeping my rifle cleaner than myself and treasuring it's functions....this served me well in Vietnam and afterward.....Many methods of correction are required, those that involve more than one of the senses are demonstrably more effective than those that do not. Of course the Air Force did experiment with Stress Cards, so perhaps the gentle flowers of the junior service do require special treatment.

Response by SrA Paul Pfeil made Jan 6 at 2016 3:27 PM

2016-01-06T15:27:48-05:00

Try that with a gay or transsexual. You would get an article 15. Welcome to the new politically correct military.

Response by TSgt Richard Satterfield made Jan 6 at 2016 4:15 PM

2016-01-06T16:15:53-05:00

Part of the problem is the Air Force quit letting NCOs act like NCOs. When I first came into the service Airmen and Privates stood when an NCO or officer entered the room. Now only if a Senior or Chief or Officer enter. It isn't done just to mess with people but as a sign of respect that promotes order and discipline. NCOs were allowed to chew out an Airman for violating to rules. Officers depended on NCOs to train and manage Airmen. We need to get away from the Corporate Air Force mentality and get back to we are a branch of the armed forces!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 4:33 PM

2016-01-06T16:33:08-05:00

Is it corrective or is it just punishment? I'd explain the importance of showing respect and what happens when orders are not followed while he does push-ups. Thus, I have counselled the offender verbally and the event is significant enough for the lesson to be remembered a long time.

Response by SPC Donte Hill made Jan 6 at 2016 4:50 PM

2016-01-06T16:50:19-05:00

What's wrong with a lite coat of sweat?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 4:51 PM

2016-01-06T16:51:39-05:00

I do "blue and golds" with my juniors all the time. They never do them without me. And yes making them push with you is hazing across the board. We call it "Deckplate Leadership" leading from the front! Go Navy!

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 5:18 PM

2016-01-06T17:18:23-05:00

I sure make my soldiers push. This includes the other 2 E-5's that I have under me (I'm their Squad Leader). Most soldiers would rather have to push than have a counseling statement in their file.

Response by TSgt Todd Kuikka made Jan 6 at 2016 7:18 PM

2016-01-06T19:18:30-05:00

Its a bullshit complaint. If you want to work in a warrior ethos career...you better be able to train like a warrior. That means training via corrective measures. If they don't accept this means of motivation as a tried and true heritage marked honor...learn your place or move the heck on to some non-combative role outside of the armed forces...like a presidential aid for Obama! If given the option for physical training or clerical remedies, that paper work better be used to push the sorry, confused, and lazy subordinate out.

Response by SSG Telesia Sobol made Jan 6 at 2016 8:33 PM

2016-01-06T20:33:20-05:00

I guess I haze my kids bc the front leaning rest is their time out position. They can knock out some push ups, but then again I was Army...not Air Force.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-01-06T20:49:19-05:00

Pussification of America

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 8:59 PM

2016-01-06T20:59:23-05:00

Maybe giving the Airman the choice of paperwork or push-ups would have been a workable option

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 11:00 PM

2016-01-06T23:00:45-05:00

I can't remember an exact date but sometime around 2009, the Army considered making a soldier push hazing. The superior had to push with them. The entire military is turning into a bunch of whiny paper pushes that get their feelings hurt too easily. Everyone is all soft and sensitive.

There was even a rumor a while ago about a Army "stress card". Where new recruits could show it to their Drill Sergeant is they felt too stressed out or even exhausted. I have never seen one but I don't doubt that they existed.

Response by Sgt Michael Wales made Jan 6 at 2016 11:31 PM

2016-01-06T23:31:59-05:00

Hazing? Really? WTF is this country's military coming to? The "me" generation strikes again. Curtis E. Lemay just vomited in his grave.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 1:54 AM

2016-01-07T01:54:27-05:00

Ok, IMO, SSgt Orcutt, I have to agree it should not be considered hazing. I have nearly 10 years in, and I have watched the Army move the same direction. I am told "Put it on a 4856" for the slightest thing, when back when I was a PFC, and was offered the choice of Paper or PT, I went and changed into PTs cause I knew if I screwed up that bad, I was gonna get dirty. As CPT Mitch Goenner's picture below states, we do potentially screw over promising young leaders early in their careers if administrative punishments are given over relatively minor offenses that a little physical reminding would take care of.

Response by CPT Bobby Johnson made Jan 7 at 2016 2:20 AM

2016-01-07T02:20:34-05:00

A significant number of USAF personnel are sent to US Army training schools which physical fitness and corrective action go hand in hand regardless of rank or branch of service. Airborne School is just one example. Some USAF leaders need to break out of the corporate mindset and instill a sense of distinction being in the military. That includes corrective action.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 2:38 AM

2016-01-07T02:38:24-05:00

Having someone push is not hazing, its a form of corrective action.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 4:11 AM

2016-01-07T04:11:15-05:00

It's not just the airforce and it is complete shit. Everybody is weak now a days.

Response by PO1 Raymond Garcia made Jan 7 at 2016 6:39 AM

2016-01-07T06:39:54-05:00

After serving 10 yrs in the army I transferred to the AF for 12 yrs. I've told people for years if we have to depend on the AF to protect us with boots on the ground we are totally screwed.

Response by SSG Dale Wyatt made Jan 7 at 2016 6:56 AM

2016-01-07T06:56:28-05:00

Ssgt, it seems to me that you were conducting first aid. The airman appeared to have higher brain dysfunction. There have been numerous studies into the effects of hypoxia. As we all know, a developing brain has a higher susceptibility to hypoxia then a mature brain. Lower enlisted still have a developing military brain and one could conclude that it too would be more susceptible to hypoxia then a junior or senior enlisted would be. Symptoms of severe rapid onset hypoxia include behavior changes, disorientation, confusion, and even death.
To counter these effects, the arterial blood oxygen concentration needs to be increased to a normal concentration. So, getting the individual to an altitude with higher oxygen concentration is essential. Basic science has proven that oxygen is in higher concentration the closer to ground level you are. As such, the front leaning rest position and the supine position seem to be the best choices for immediate first aid efforts. Secondly, increasing blood flow to the brain is also advised to allow the rapid transport of this newly oxygenated blood to reach the effected brain. This enriched oxygen treatment should be administered until signs and symptoms improve towards normal baseline parameters.
So, as we can see rapid onset hypoxia induced military higher brain dysfunction is detrimental to the developing military brain, and as NCO's it is your duty to conduct first aid to the effected lower enlisted as soon as possible.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 7:20 AM

2016-01-07T07:20:32-05:00

It's not about what we "feel" is correct leadership ways to address a problem, it's about what is legal and right. Sorry to say, but NCO's do not have the right to administer punishment, only commanders can. REAL NCO's know the legal rights for them and their subordinates, and should know the administrative process well. This conversation should not be in play, if the NCO was educated in the administrative process. plus, any time you single out one individual, your opening the door for huge repocutions. However, smart NCO's know how to play their legal rights to their advantage, and in "punishment or making them drop".

In my opinion though, I do feel many things not just the militaries have become extremely sensitive to everything.

Response by SrA Curtis Rowe made Jan 7 at 2016 7:32 AM

2016-01-07T07:32:13-05:00

Only thing I see wrong in this situation is that it seems you were way too eager to try and assert your newly appointed authority over your subordinates without earning their respect. Power-tripping douche move if you ask me

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 8:15 AM

2016-01-07T08:15:45-05:00

So, I've never had to push outside BMT for correction, but my supervisors have been creative. I remember once, my supervisor made me write my own LOC, and said it had to be on his desk the next morning, with all corrections made and properly formatted. I had been accused of turning my back on an NCO while he was talking to me (which I deny, but that's not the point here). I wrote it, studied how to write an LOC, formatted it, had it checked by some other NCOs, and turned it in. I was an A1C at the time with no ALS or former training on paperwork, bullet-writing, etc. He did not do it to file it (it never went into my PRF), he did it so I could understand what I did wrong, and the result of the action. While to this day I still deny my original accused offense, I make it a point to make sure a conversation is ended before I turn away, and I learned how to turn out a good product well before ALS, which helped me in the long run. So while I don't think push-ups are hazing (not even close), I've always preferred the mental corrections over the physical ones.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made Jan 7 at 2016 8:51 AM

2016-01-07T08:51:13-05:00

No it has been a part of the Military Since I have heard the stories.. Do Stupid things Get time to think...

Response by CW4 Peek Smith made Jan 7 at 2016 10:30 AM

2016-01-07T10:30:12-05:00

Good. God. Only in the Air Force. If push ups are considered "hazing" IN ANY CONTEXT in ANY MILITARY BRANCH we are doomed.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Jan 7 at 2016 12:23 PM

2016-01-07T12:23:58-05:00

No. Disregarding the current (and well-intentioned but harmful) AF definition of hazing for a moment, push ups are good for you, and they represent a great alternative to paperwork. Some of the best forms of correction are innovative and personal. They are remembered for those reasons, yet don't unnecessarily harm your career. I'd much rather take push ups or car wash or latrine duty over paperwork.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 1:00 PM

2016-01-07T13:00:32-05:00

its in the army too...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 1:12 PM

2016-01-07T13:12:36-05:00

The best word to describe your NCOIC is soft. Hazing? They are in the MILITARY! Hello! I had my soldiers push quite a bit. When they acted like this was cruel and unusual punishment, I would drop and push with them. Lead by example if you will. It is far better for the soldier if you make a corrective action on the spot instead of a permanent mark on their records, situation dictating of course.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 1:54 PM

2016-01-07T13:54:58-05:00

Learn how to spell.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 2:34 PM

2016-01-07T14:34:03-05:00

I was taught as an NCO that the punishment needs to fit the crime. Push ups are PT, so you can drop them if they are sub standard on their PT test. Additionally, make sure you know how much power you have. I once had my LT give me additional duty due to a disagreement we had, but my NCOIC took that up to the SQ/CC and he told her she didn't have that authority. I'm sure one of our smart SNCOs knows where this is written (UCMJ maybe).

Response by Sgt John Heffley made Jan 7 at 2016 3:33 PM

2016-01-07T15:33:09-05:00

Push ups, Hah! Throw in some mountain climbers and make him really think. We will not maintain our place in the world by being sensitive to their self esteem.

Response by SPC Matthew Keough made Jan 7 at 2016 8:21 PM

2016-01-07T20:21:19-05:00

As a former SPC if I screwed up I welcomed corrective training. As did pretty much my entire Company. Arti 15's and paperwork was nothing but and is nothing but a crap ass way to discipline someone. Honestly what the heck is going to make you remember to not do something a signed sheet of paper in a file cabinet or your ass doing 50+ push-up or any kind of work out.

Response by SFC Jerry Jones made Jan 7 at 2016 9:32 PM

2016-01-07T21:32:07-05:00

I would make them do the push-ups. I did enough in my career to move the earth. I guess it would have been considered hazing that I PT'ed my platoon for an hour and a half when they acted stupid when they were given some "priviledges" prior to a deployment. No paper work needed and they got the message.

Response by SGT Matthew Ellis made Jan 7 at 2016 10:53 PM

2016-01-07T22:53:54-05:00

Pretty sure anything other than lounging with a latte in hand is hazing in yhe AF. But then, I grew up in the infantry at a time where you'd be taken out to the woodline for that crap.

Response by SSgt David Harris made Jan 7 at 2016 11:02 PM

2016-01-07T23:02:45-05:00

You did the ight thing

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2016 11:15 PM

2016-01-07T23:15:21-05:00

Front Lean and Rest Being Hazing?! Nneeevvvvveeeeeerrrrrr!!!!

Response by SSG Donald Burg made Jan 7 at 2016 11:42 PM

2016-01-07T23:42:06-05:00

Wow chairforce

Response by GySgt Mike W made Jan 8 at 2016 1:23 AM

2016-01-08T01:23:29-05:00

Whatever, Obama, Ray Mabus, and Ash Carter will ensure feelings are above combat effectiveness....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2016 1:56 AM

2016-01-08T01:56:36-05:00

Unfortunately we have weak NCOs too

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2016 2:24 AM

2016-01-08T02:24:06-05:00

They cant even do this in basic anymore

Response by SGT Todd Macsisak made Jan 8 at 2016 5:46 AM

2016-01-08T05:46:27-05:00

This is not the boy scouts maggots drop and do 20

Response by SrA Joshua Copenhaver made Jan 8 at 2016 5:50 AM

2016-01-08T05:50:45-05:00

As someone who has been in the air force and army, I have seen both worlds. When I was in the air force I was never told to do pushups outside of PT after leaving basic. And yes I made plenty of mistakes. But my world changed drasticly once I went into the army. I believe they need to bring back doing push up to the air force.

Response by LCpl George Boudreau Jr made Jan 8 at 2016 6:23 AM

2016-01-08T06:23:21-05:00

The more we sweat in Peace Time the less we bleed in War....and what good is a military without Discipline. Military and Civilian...see the difference.... There's supposed to be one.

Response by SPC Nathan Freeman made Jan 8 at 2016 10:26 AM

2016-01-08T10:26:38-05:00

Fort Bragg is 6" closer to sea level for all the push-ups done over the years. Builds character

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Jan 8 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-01-08T13:04:41-05:00

You're not crazy at all. The AirForce is also the military, but some leaders want to civilianize their part of the military. Happens in the Army too.

Response by SrA Collin Binkley made Jan 8 at 2016 1:27 PM

2016-01-08T13:27:09-05:00

When I was in I would always rather have an "in house" punishment such as push ups or coming in on the weekends to wash vehicles and clean the shop rather than have paper work filed.

Response by MSG Carl Clark made Jan 8 at 2016 4:53 PM

2016-01-08T16:53:48-05:00

You are OK, as some have said, our world / military is out of whack. Do the best you can as a leader. It may get worse before gets better but everything in time changes. Nations like ours that are in rapid decline go through what we are seeing now in our society and our military, especially where leadership is concerned.

Response by MSgt William Webb made Jan 8 at 2016 7:16 PM

2016-01-08T19:16:04-05:00

If you aren't Air Force you don't get it. That's not an insult, but we do things different in every tier and for good reason. Push-ups aren't hazing but they are Mal-training in the AF. The corrective action should be relevant to the issue. If he was disrespectful, make him practice being respectful, if he fails to salute, help him practice to salute. You can and should still get creative as an NCO. For instance, I had an airman who had issues being late. After the first time we began to practice timeliness, meaning this individual had a place to be at a certain time all day, for a week. If on a job, he might have to meet me at the fire hydrant at 0815, then so on. Corrective actions should correct the issue, we measure strength in the AF during PT tests, that's where push-ups come in. Just my philosophy! Cheers all!

Response by PFC Skyler Trask made Jan 8 at 2016 7:23 PM

2016-01-08T19:23:45-05:00

If I hadn't pushed as much as I had I would never have been the soldier I was

Response by SGT Anthony Johnson made Jan 8 at 2016 8:37 PM

2016-01-08T20:37:45-05:00

No pushing is discipline..been there done that....anyone who thinks its hazing is an idiot and must have never served in the REAL military

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2016 9:33 PM

2016-01-08T21:33:25-05:00

Not at all!

Response by A1C Vinay Roopchan made Jan 8 at 2016 11:08 PM

2016-01-08T23:08:34-05:00

This hurts in so many ways ... Wtf !! Ur in the military especially the Air Force should be able to ask ur stupid self unfortunately why am I doing push ups alone is it because I made airman of the quarter, I think not. now shut ur face and push America !!! It only makes u stronger in the end and ur supposed to be punished and rewarded accordingly its what makes NCO's or who ever gain the trust and respect of troops ( sun tzu ) Art of war. Now this just makes the Air Force look bad everyone thinks that if ur in the Air Force ur a freaking pencil pusher . This just proves them right. I mean were supposed to be smarter, yeah we train just as hard as the Army and Combat controllers harder than some Marines! Now forgive me for saying this but all in all its weird if not sad how stupid and sensitive some of my brothers and sisters are. If we ever goto to war and I get called back into service the last man I want by my side is that NCO and the Airman who taught doing push ups as punishment is hazing y'all some pussies ! I rembered having to go to RMT and I tell you it was like hell week in a day. Did I complain ??? NO !! Y'all who see it that way should get out of the military let real warriors take yall's place bunch of pansies I'm done here !

Response by CPO Michael Broekhof made Jan 8 at 2016 11:46 PM

2016-01-08T23:46:17-05:00

Ask the airman if he would rather have paperwork or pt.

Response by Sgt Nathaniel Goodfellow made Jan 8 at 2016 11:51 PM

2016-01-08T23:51:19-05:00

My NCIS found a way around this. One of them would do an exercise with us Jr enlisted. When he started getting tired a different NCO would do exercises with us. We got exhausted, they got a nice warm up. It takes a team but it can still be done old fashioned, just have to read the rules carefully

Response by SSG Casey Willis made Jan 9 at 2016 12:19 AM

2016-01-09T00:19:42-05:00

I'm a 85 basic trainee . Couldn't remember a time when we wasn't pushing. We got stronger more disciplined, tougher.made me a better man.

Response by SSG Casey Willis made Jan 9 at 2016 12:22 AM

2016-01-09T00:22:54-05:00

If that's hazing for our military then we don't have a military.

Response by Zavier Hood made Jan 9 at 2016 12:31 AM

2016-01-09T00:31:13-05:00

I go to basic training on Tuesday & if I'm out of line I believe sometime during my experience I should have to push it's apart of the experience & is character building. I believe there's nothing wrong with this. We are the military not a local police department.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2016 11:01 AM

2016-01-09T11:01:40-05:00

Paperwork is useless, unless you are trying to building a case for dismissal from the military. If a soldier screws up enough to merit punishment, punish them accordingly. Physical training in the form of punishment should have never been considered hazing, the fact that it is now concerns me that we are no longer a strong capable military, but a more like summer camp. 10 years ago, if you disrespected an NCO, five other NCOs jumped in and took turns PTing the disrespectful soldier, needless to say that soldier did not repeat the incident.

Response by MSgt Charles Johnson made Jan 9 at 2016 11:24 AM

2016-01-09T11:24:18-05:00

The punishment must fit the crime. What makes you think your able to do that? Your emotionally involved. Take to your OIC in a private conversation. Let him decide. Or your senior NCO. Multiple hours of pushing sky sounds like hazzing and is. Give him extra duty. Or PT like a gun run. But don't make this shit up, figure out ahead of time what your units non-offical punishments are. Leadership means leading....being ahead.

Response by SGT Thomas LaRochelle made Jan 9 at 2016 11:28 AM

2016-01-09T11:28:07-05:00

What's the difference between making him do push-ups and giving him paper as far as "diminishing his self-esteem? Paper will be in his records for who knows how many to see forever. Making him do push-ups is a time-honored tradition in the military as a way to " rehabilitate" a soldier's actions while keeping it out of his permanent record. Also, since PT is a big part of the military regimine, it can only help a soldier stay fit. How many soldiers would sware that all the push-ups they did as a result of corrective training heloed them pass a PT test? I agree, this policy of categorizing push-ups for immediate punishment as hazing is just bringing up a generation of pansies!

Response by SPC Matthew Davidson made Jan 9 at 2016 11:59 AM

2016-01-09T11:59:19-05:00

Drop with him and "team build". Show him the standards expected of a U.S. soldier. Allons

Response by TSgt Gerald Wilson made Jan 9 at 2016 12:01 PM

2016-01-09T12:01:10-05:00

This highlights the new vs. old school USAF. It used to be that we tried to minimize personnel administrative stuff in favor of handling it right there. Moreover, the operationally focused Airman was NOT penalized (thrown out ) as they are today for not evolving into a manager. You're seeing the rise of the HR Air Force my friend. And the irony is that it's become this way in time of war. So, if you are young and physically up to it, I recommend the JSOC community where they have enough autonomy for the mission to actually come first. Otherwise, it's community involvement, reflective belts and e-sss building brother... Best wishes

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Jan 9 at 2016 12:20 PM

2016-01-09T12:20:43-05:00

I realize this could be a cultural issue, but having done more than a couple of years in a Joint posting I'm going to throw a couple of opinions out.
A) It is the Air Force, they do tend towards the Corporate option, which means a paper trail and learning or being refused re-enlistment may follow even if learning occurred. I don't really like that path in every case, but it seems like culturally that was the preferred option.
B) As a Marine, I got a couple of chances, given to me thru some incentive PT vice paperwork. I learned and the paper trail never existed.
C) I used both tools, if someone was absolutely defiant and obstinate, paper was appropriate to me and I'd build them as big a file as they wanted. If they knew they'd screwed up and knew they needed to change, we "reinforced" the lesson at various levels w/o paperwork.

Personally, I think this is one of the things about being a good leader, knowing when to use which tool. When the head shed starts micromanaging that, well, they no longer have leaders, just managers. IMHO.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-01-09T13:07:33-05:00

It's not just the Air Force. Marines as well

Response by TSgt John Ter Bush made Jan 9 at 2016 2:10 PM

2016-01-09T14:10:33-05:00

Years ago I had a First Sergeant tell me that since PT was now on the EPR making someone push will help them get a better EPR.

Response by 1stSgt Jg L made Jan 9 at 2016 4:33 PM

2016-01-09T16:33:44-05:00

The AF stopped allowing their NCOs to be NCOs years ago. They are now managers with chevrons.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2016 8:28 PM

2016-01-09T20:28:05-05:00

I might be in this new generation Army but I'm all for being smoked. My dad is 27 years in. So know what old army was like and that I expected going to basic three years ago. Horrible disappointed, we got smoked a lot in BCT. I loved it and I got in great shape but it also seared into are heads the lessons we needed to learn. This isn't hazing nor should it be considered. If I saw a NCO smoke a battle or lower rank than i. Then hooah that's what should happen.

Response by SGT Terry Hardin Sr. made Jan 10 at 2016 12:00 AM

2016-01-10T00:00:01-05:00

I served in an Artillery Battery in Germany in the early 80s. I dropped troops for push ups more than I care to count. I put one soldier on guard duty in the motor pool for constantly wandering around hindering the work of other soldiers. There are more ways to correct the behavior of soldiers than administrative punishment. Drill and Ceremony worked well for me.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2016 2:20 AM

2016-01-10T02:20:55-05:00

This response reflects the 80% NONER majority in the Air Force, when Amn do dumb shit this is an appropriate rehabilitation tool, this ain't the coast guard!

Response by Sgt Brian Fountaine made Jan 10 at 2016 5:06 AM

2016-01-10T05:06:51-05:00

Your a loser. Even a Marine veteran from the 80s n 90s know u cant do this shyt. U should be a man n act like one. Respect is earned, not given by your achieving another free rank in the airse force

Response by SGT Paul Gentner made Jan 10 at 2016 5:50 AM

2016-01-10T05:50:44-05:00

As a 15 year Army man and combat veteran i say dam straight to corrective action. Push ups im liew of formally reprimanding a good soldier, is the way to go. If said soldier is generally a well disciplined person, why ruin his record with a bad NCOER or negative counseling statement? Good for you SSG. I always said if you don't want to be in my Army ill help you get out, if you do want to be in my Army, then suck it up and drive on hooah

Response by SMSgt Kenneth Monroe made Jan 10 at 2016 8:26 AM

2016-01-10T08:26:04-05:00

Your NCOIC and 1st Sgt are correct about using physical punishment for misbehavior being considered "hazing" and they did you a favor by telling you to give the airman paperwork. The airman could've come back on you, your NCOIC and the 1st Shirt if he/she had carried out the push-ups. This isn't new (hazing). I retired in 2008 and was a shirt for five different units and am currently a JROTC Instructor. So, I feel your pain when troops disrespect you and don't follow orders. Do yourself a favor and do the paperwork from verbal to LOCs. Then turn it over to your NCOIC for LOAs and LORs. All takes time I know. When it comes time for the decision about Article 15s (up to the CC), suggest another administrative action called Control Roster. Unless things have changed, all the LOCs, LOAs, LORs are filed in the CR. While on CR the member is ineligible to PCS or reenlist until they proven they've changed their behavior. Tough job being a supervisor but the AF needs good leaders and I believe you are because you cared enough to do something. Too many supervisors want to be buddies with their subordinates. That doesn't always work out when stuff hits the fan. May God bless you and thank you for your Service!

Response by MSG David Smoak made Jan 10 at 2016 9:28 AM

2016-01-10T09:28:58-05:00

Disobeying a lawful order from an NCO is a much more serious offense than just requiring pushups. What was the nature of this disrespect & disobeying? It sounds to me like it was an old "buddy" who had not adjusted to your new rank and authority and you wanted to rub it in their face--literally. There is a proper time for pushups--during fitness training. For a work environment if you want to get someone's attention put them at "Parade Rest"---simple, you talk, they listen without talking until you give them permission. An Airman that refuses to obey simple, legal commands like that is deserving of paperwork and possibly future separation. Now if you think this is all too much trouble then I agree with others that you are being lazy and just trying to abuse your authority and not really correct the situation.

Response by CW3 Jeff Slater made Jan 10 at 2016 9:39 AM

2016-01-10T09:39:55-05:00

You were trying to train by one of the most effective means available!!!! I retired for this same reason.... War is not nice and the enemy will not send paperwork to us before they beat the shit out of our wimp ass forces !!! Wake up america!

Response by SrA Ben Smith made Jan 10 at 2016 10:46 AM

2016-01-10T10:46:03-05:00

You got to be kidding me. This is what the Air Force is about. If can't handle you TI getting in your face and do some push ups. How can you handle real pressure?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jan 10 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-01-10T11:11:00-05:00

Response by SPC Charles Rowin made Jan 10 at 2016 12:47 PM

2016-01-10T12:47:17-05:00

In the army, when I was told to do push-ups, the NCO would most often do them as well. The SOP was don't make anyone do something that you would not do yourself. So my suggestion is that if you want to put someone on their face, get down and give me 20.

Response by MSgt Michael Ballenger made Jan 10 at 2016 9:43 PM

2016-01-10T21:43:14-05:00

Here's what I was told, back in the day. Offer the Airman the choice--paperwork or pushups. That way it's their choice as to whether or not to take the push ups over the NJP

Response by SPC Dee Bartlett made Jan 10 at 2016 10:12 PM

2016-01-10T22:12:50-05:00

Uhhhhhhhh..........I thought that was physical training. Crap! I wasn't supposed to be doing pushups?!?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2016 11:35 PM

2016-01-10T23:35:05-05:00

This is exactly what is wrong with our military today. I hear all the time that kids are smarter and that we should treat them better. BS! My Soldiers tell me all the time that basic was lame and how they thought it was gonna be tough. You turn off the power and most of these people couldn't find their ass with both hands. I was humping the mountains of Korea at 18 with nothing but a map, compass, and what would fit in my ruck. Running around changing the name of everything to warrior this or warrior that doesn't make them fighters. This isn't one of those things where you go around saying it long enough that it is true. If they cannot hack it being yelled at and having to beat their face when needed then they are not strong willed enough to defend the country. We have uniforms that are garbage made for people too lazy to maintain them, we have an electronic something for those to stupid to read a map, and a vehicle for every occasion to make sure we don't have to walk any further than the motor pool gate to the vehicle. These young Soldiers want and are capable of doing anything if given the proper opportunity but we have set the bar so dang low that it is usually anticlimactic and not worth the time to do it!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2016 1:39 AM

2016-01-11T01:39:07-05:00

It's not hazing if you break yourself off with them. There are other methods to getting a "joe" to acquiesce to your will, though.

Response by SPC Joshua Murphy made Jan 11 at 2016 2:08 AM

2016-01-11T02:08:11-05:00

Nothing wrong with dropping a subordinate for 20 whenever their behavior is not befitting the uniform. When I went through, we could get dropped for breathing the wrong way. We survived with our feelings intact (lol) and were physically and mentally the better for it. If these Airmen, or any servicemen for that matter, can't handle being dropped for a few push ups, I shudder to think what would happen when the stuff hits the fan in the thick of close quarters combat!

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Jan 11 at 2016 6:16 AM

2016-01-11T06:16:48-05:00

I thought being forced to get up in the morning was considered hazing in the Air Force?!

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2016 7:33 AM

2016-01-11T07:33:08-05:00

When in PME I did something similar, when someone cussed in class I would have them do 10 push ups. I was told that it was discipline, not corrective action and push ups could only be used for training. So when someone cussed in class the whole class, including me, did 10 push ups with up/down commands. Amazingly the cussing usually curbed in the first week of class. I found that little things like that helped build a team, the students started holding each other accountable and self discipline increased. I also got some street cred for doing the push ups with them. All in all it was win.
Physical correction in the AF is considered hazing or disciplining neither of which the enlisted force can do. Hence why TI's can't make anyone do more than 10 push ups at a time. If it's not ok in basic then of course it's not ok in your work center. While we like to shy away from paperwork, by not doing it you are not accurately documenting their performance and can't give effective feedback at the appropriate time and that is the real reason for the documentation. It's already been identified that we do a terrible job giving feedback and rating accurately in the AF, writing things down allows you to give better feedback even if the documentation is just an MFR to help you remember.

Response by SGT Mike Morris made Jan 11 at 2016 12:53 PM

2016-01-11T12:53:59-05:00

You put enough paperwork in someone's life its likely that same NCOIC will be bucking for UCMJ eventually. Push ups and other similar physical calestetics are great ways of correcting and punishing minor violations. This corrects the problem usually and you don't developed a paper trail for someone else to come along and try and use against that troop.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2016 7:47 PM

2016-01-11T19:47:19-05:00

As a Behavioral Health Officer, I strongly believe in the phrase "Accountability with Compassion". My first NCO told me you can break anyone but it takes a leader to build them up. Sounds like the push-ups would be a good way to teach the soldier versus taking admin action that could ruin their careers. I also have no problem dropping if/as needed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2016 10:04 PM

2016-01-11T22:04:29-05:00

This is complete nd udder bullshit bc in the army as an spc/E4 I can make lower enlisted drop nd do push ups it is not hazing in any way shape or form is called corrective action

Response by PO3 David Fries made Jan 12 at 2016 4:54 AM

2016-01-12T04:54:53-05:00

The fact that this discussion is being had saddens me.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2016 10:36 PM

2016-01-12T22:36:55-05:00

Unfortunately this is not the first I have heard of this. I guess being able to be told to do push ups ended in Basic Training. Honestly I think this would be more productive than paperwork. In tech school we had a SFC that put a friend of mine on his face and after our (AF) Leaders found out they lost their minds and the SFC had a talking to because it is not the way the Air Force "treats" their people. I disagree, I think putting people on their face is a good way to avoid paperwork and giving them a chance while making sure they can pass their push ups on their PT test.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2016 10:36 AM

2016-01-13T10:36:13-05:00

Well you could have used AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-106. I think it would explain it...

Response by LCpl Waliq Knolle made Jan 13 at 2016 11:07 AM

2016-01-13T11:07:36-05:00

If that's the case there's a lot of hazing going on in my neck of the woods. It's completely ridiculous your ncoic would even consider that to be hazing. I've been in the Marine Corps for 3 years and with an infantry battalion for about 2 and a half and the way we run things is avoiding paperwork as much as possible. At the same time generally if one person is being punished the rest of the team,zsquad,ect ends up getting punished but the person who caused it is less likely to do it again either from learning from the punishment itself or learning from their peers. Personally I've never been an NCO however I was placed in multiple NCO billets while I was still a Lance Corporal and whenever my snco wanted to do paperwork on someone I either talked him out of it or distracted him from it so things could be dealt with in a less harmful manner because my company 1st Sgt was a hard charger and he'd push anything and everything he could and review past incidences of any sort of paperwork done.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 11:24 AM

2016-01-19T11:24:07-05:00

As enlisted personnel we can't punish, but we can train. Disrespect is not a physical training issue, so in this incident you were out of line.

Response by SPC James Dollins made Jan 22 at 2016 4:39 PM

2016-01-22T16:39:50-05:00

While I do agree w/ SFC Fischer.. I also know that the AF is also Kindler, & Gentler than the Army! Been there done that. So while I do agree w/ the physical correction, that's a big No No in the land of the blue, & has been for years!! Being an E-5 you should know that. The AF is more paper/book/rule oriented.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Jan 26 at 2016 4:47 PM

2016-01-26T16:47:36-05:00

When I was in the REAL Army 1973-1979 any DI could have you drop and "Give him 50" for whatever reason he wanted. This was before the PC Army. I was never so disappointed as when we visited our son at BCT in Greenville, SC. The barracks were a mess, boots were scuffed, trashcans were overflowing,,,, Not in my time. It hurt my heart Drop 'em! Anytime you want. Your NCOIC is a PC wuss!
Rick

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Jan 26 at 2016 6:38 PM

2016-01-26T18:38:52-05:00

I responded earlier to this thread but wanted to clarify AND question a point or two. Is this occurring only in the AF? Lord, please tell me the ARMY NCO's can still drop you for 20 or 50 pushups. Why is it hazing if the airman had screwed up? It's punishment. No question the NCO could do the push ups at the same time but what if he/she drops 10 Airmen a day for mistakes? The NCO has to do 500 push ups so it's not hazing? See? This is all wrong.
Thanks,
Rick

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2016 7:37 PM

2016-03-03T19:37:45-05:00

Let's all take our rank off so that lower enlisted won't feel bad

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2016 4:22 PM

2016-06-24T16:22:32-04:00

I weep for the military.

Response by SMSgt William Hassiepen made Jun 24 at 2016 9:13 PM

2016-06-24T21:13:50-04:00

I used to lend people out like that for every shit detail that came down the pike. They would never get promoted, and they were always at the bottom of the list when it came to leave requests and they were NEVER granted a day off

Response by MSgt Devon Saunders made Jun 25 at 2016 12:46 AM

2016-06-25T00:46:10-04:00

Nah you aren't crazy at all!! When I was stationed at Luke AFB our Chief would make Airman, NCOs and SNCOs do push-ups if he found errors in the aircraft forms during Doc reviews. I gave my guys a choice. Paperwork or push-ups. Push-ups became the popular choice as it also contributed to helping some improve their PT scores.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 8:15 AM

2016-06-25T08:15:57-04:00

Let tell you by example why you are wrong. I used to work with a Soldier. We were both specialist. This soldier spent her time leaving early often and coming in late. When I mean coming in late, I mean often, 15-20 miss late and she lived 10 mins away. Her NCO smoked her every time. 2 months later she came up on a automatic promotion list. My NCOIC went to the commander to stop. He asked for counseling packet. There was negative paperwork to be found and she made SGT.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2016 2:37 PM

2016-06-30T14:37:01-04:00

In my opinion, had you done the push-ups worth the airman it wouldn't be hazing and it would show the airman you aren't just flexing your newly found authority over them. I think you shouldn't ask anyone to do something you wouldn't or couldn't do yourself. I do believe in second chances and that there are different ways to deal with different people, but not documenting their failures does not do anyone any favors. When I was in Guam, a TSgt would tally up discrepancies he found on our AGE equipment that was 7 lvl ready then at the ebbs of the day we would all as a crew do push-ups after discussing what, who and how we could improve. It should always be seen as constructive and a training tool not punishment.

Response by SPC Daniel Bowen made Feb 23 at 2017 12:13 PM

2017-02-23T12:13:37-05:00

I am a firm believer in corrective action that actually physically and mentally benefits my team. Having any military subordinate conduct push-ups, sit-ups, flutter-kicks, etc. as a corrective action is a very effective way to not only remind the member of their mistake, but it also brings to light that making poor decisions in life will only make it harder for you down the road. If you can survive being "put on your face", then it will help you down the road when other challenges arise. Physical fitness mixed with corrective action has proven for generations that it builds camaraderie between the soldiers who failed, and puts them viewing the world from a different perspective. It teaches young soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines a respect for the powers that be, and more respect for the power of making poor or awarding decisions.

If your feelings are hurt simply because you have to conduct PT outside of your scheduled due time, then you need to re-evaluate your choice in serving. But, this is not just a subordinate responsibility. We as leaders do not always have to use the "smoke-fest" option to discipline a subordinate. There are times we as leaders fail to see the signs or meet our soldiers with the right form of leadership, and in turn they act inappropriately which leads us to physical fitness corrective action. This like any other issue, is a two-way street. I am former 11B, so fitness and smoking's came with the job. And I learned very valuable lessons in life from it. But, the best leaders should not have to always turn to putting their soldier on their faces to fix every problem. We as leaders should remind ourselves that there are other ways to take corrective action. But, though with other options available, I am firm believer in the use of physical fitness corrective action.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Mar 2 at 2017 2:27 PM

2017-03-02T14:27:59-05:00

I think you have a bunch of pussies in the military these days and all that PC crap to back them up. When I was in in you'd do your push-ups and not commit whatever infraction caused you to have to them in the first place. No Sgt that outranked you would have chastised you for it. This is the kind of action that was the cause of the Air Force to be looked down on by Army personnel back then. No disrespect intended SSGT but that was the general outlook in my day.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Mar 4 at 2017 2:19 PM

2017-03-04T14:19:20-05:00

If you do your job as an NCO, then dropping a soldier for push ups would be a rare event. I spent a lot of time around NCO's that believed that dropping a soldier for push-ups was fun. Yes, it should be a tool in your arsenal but it should not be your go-to tool. As a leader, your soldiers should respect you not fear you. Everyone that ever served in the Army knows that prick NCO that liked dropping soldiers. They would find a reason to do it. I always believed in trying to catch a soldier doing something right instead of doing something wrong. If you saved that particular form of corrective training for when it is truly warranted then it is a lot more effective.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 8 at 2017 10:55 AM

2017-05-08T10:55:07-04:00

Having to sleep in any place but a 5 star hotel in the Air Force is hazing. Having to eat in anyplace by a first class diner is hazing in the Air Force.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 18 at 2017 8:16 PM

2017-05-18T20:16:05-04:00

Hell no, that's just PT! Hazing would consist of despicably more heinous acts of torture like sleeping in a tent, eating in an Army mess hall, drinking real Navy coffee or, dare I say getting dirty. LMAO!! Just some friendly inter-service humor!!

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made May 19 at 2017 7:25 PM

2017-05-19T19:25:41-04:00

Putting someone on their face is Hollywood horseshit. Service school is one thing, it should never be done in a day to day environment. If you're resorting to this you're a poor leader.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2017 9:48 PM

2017-10-01T21:48:31-04:00

Lmao Air Force is softer than baby shit.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2019 6:44 AM

2019-10-15T06:44:23-04:00

Punishment needs to fit the infraction, on the spot correction is fine, but push-ups every hour maybe not a good idea. A quick smoke check and through something on paper outlining the infraction and a course of action on how to move forward so you cover your ass and the airmen understand might work.

Response by FN Randy Bohlke made Jan 16 at 2020 4:14 PM

2020-01-16T16:14:12-05:00

No disrespect intended because I have the utmost respect for all the branches of Service but the Airforce has always been a little soft and in these days of political correctness and worrying about hurting everyone's feelings all the branches have become a little soft.

I went to Navy boot camp in Great Lakes Illinois January 1st 1987 and they had just made it where the CCs couldn't put hands on the recruits but they sure as hell could physically punish us.

Boot camp is supposed to be a mental conditioning to prepare you for war and make you into someone who will follow orders no questions asked. The way they train these kids nowadays I don't see much difference in them after boot like there used to be.

Someone please contact me if I'm wrong but I believe the old ways was better for preparing our kids for war and teaching them respect and discipline.