Do you think that a Drill Sergeant who does not use "curse words" or "profanity" would be as effective as one that does?

2017-09-16T15:07:39-04:00

Response by SGT Jim Arnold made Sep 16 at 2017 3:10 PM

2017-09-16T15:10:26-04:00

yes Absolutely. Tone and inflection carries weight also

Response by SGT Matthew S. made Sep 16 at 2017 7:32 PM

2017-09-16T19:32:13-04:00

Yes. I remember mine swearing on occasion, but for the most part it was more for shock effect to get someone's attention. Most were good enough at their job & knew what they were doing well enough to get points across by other means.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2017 9:16 PM

2017-09-17T21:16:59-04:00

You don't need to curse and yell to be an effective leader. There's going to be those points were you are so frustrated you might slip out a few words here and there, but I honestly don't believe it matters. The focus of being a drill is to train those who might be in your shoes. Minus the recruiter you'll be the first impression that these young privates take from the 'big' Army.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Sep 18 at 2017 11:42 AM

2017-09-18T11:42:38-04:00

I had one Drill Sergeant, I sh!t you not (see what I did there? ;-) ), who had a minor religious epiphany mid-cycle, and stopped swearing entirely.

We still fully paid heed to him, because the consequences of not doing so were no less painful as they would have been before.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2017 11:52 AM

2017-09-18T11:52:52-04:00

Yes, I had two drill sergeants, one from Puerto Rico who never used curse words and one black female who told us up front she cusses like a sailor, both were equally effective at what they did. The one who cussed really never got personal with it, she just cussed.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2017 11:52 AM

2017-09-18T11:52:55-04:00

Absolutely. My DI's never cussed and I was adequately terrified of them for 12 weeks.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 18 at 2017 5:38 PM

2017-09-18T17:38:13-04:00

Absolutely. In fact, now that I think back, I don't think I ever heard my DIs swear. They might call us every single name in the book and then make up a few new ones, but I can't recall them ever cussing both publicly or privately.

There are a number of factors which make a DI effective. He's at the top of his game both physically and mentally. He has a lot of energy. It takes a lot of effort to run around screaming back and forth without looking tired in front of your troops. He's got to look crisp and clean with a good attention to detail. How can someone judge me on my uniforms if his doesn't scream perfection. He also needs a willingness to turn gross, nasty civilians into fine upstanding military machines.

I may have hated every minute I was in my DIs "care", but when you look back, you can see how every little thing they did made you a little bit better, a little bit faster, a little bit stronger.

You don't need to cuss to polish a turd. You just need to want to do the polishing.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Sep 18 at 2017 8:02 PM

2017-09-18T20:02:11-04:00

I actually was more impressed by the "cursing without cursing" types who were so clever with words, you didn't want to be a target. They didn't need to use a curse crutch. Their corrective behavior tended to have us more responsible for our own selves. Good method.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 18 at 2017 8:03 PM

2017-09-18T20:03:31-04:00

Yes
The inverse is also possible, one that does need not be ineffective.

The leader or person in position of authority that yells all the time or curses all the time is likely less effective then the one that uses either of those to a specific effect at an appropriate time in front of a specific audience.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Sep 18 at 2017 9:21 PM

2017-09-18T21:21:30-04:00

Sure why not, I swear not because I like it, it is just habit. But I have known soldiers who would not say Shit if they stepped in it. I respected that you don't have swear to get someone's attention. Confidence is what gets things done.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 18 at 2017 9:27 PM

2017-09-18T21:27:16-04:00

Had a well-respected SNCO who never cursed. One day he dropped the F-Bomb. There were multiple sonic booms, as Marines decided somewhere else was a better place to be.

Had a well-respected SNCO whose every 2nd AND 3rd word was a curse word. When he was really pissed, the curse words stopped, the volume got real low, and the distance between nose tips was measured in millimeters. The Marine who earned his attention dared not move because rumor had it that the SNCO's eyes fired laser beams that could vaporize a man in a fraction of a second.

If you have earned the respect of those around you, it is all just a matter of style.

Response by CSM William Payne made Sep 18 at 2017 10:37 PM

2017-09-18T22:37:58-04:00

My drill sergeant in 3rd platoon, Delta Company, 13th Battalion, 4th Training Brigade, Fort Knox Kentucky, October - December 1973, SFC Eugene McDaniels, not only didn't curse, he rarely even raised his voice.

In fact he spoke at a level that I think it was his intention to have you lean in and pay close attention to what he was saying.

But he led from the front, could perform almost every training or physical objective better than most of us and he demanded respect.

He let NO ONE mess with his trainees, if someone had an issue with us, they had resolve it through him.

He set the standard of a Drill Instructor, that years later, I tried to emulate when I was in the same position.

Then if there was a need to raise your voice or call on the use of more colorful language, it had a MUCH greater impact.

Response by SSG James Behnke made Sep 18 at 2017 11:18 PM

2017-09-18T23:18:35-04:00

If using profanity is what gets soldiers to pay attention to you, there is a serious problem. Not to say there isn't a time and a place for the occasional F-bomb, but as a whole, "The Army Profession" should be taught as such. Drill Sergeants can instill the fear of God into you without using profanity, I guarantee it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2017 11:57 PM

2017-09-18T23:57:46-04:00

There is a time and place for everything. I lack the ability to "raise my voice" due to physical reasons. So I cannot yell. In fact the best I can do "aggressively suggest", which actually struck the fear of God in people more so than my more verbal counterparts. The extra effort it takes for me to speak loudly makes me conscious of what I need to say. If I curse at you, that is an extra added and very deliberate act I have to take. That extra verbiage was instantly recognized and had meaning. Appropriate use of curse words does have value, but only if it is not part of your regular vocabulary.

Response by PFC Jonathan Albano made Sep 19 at 2017 5:39 AM

2017-09-19T05:39:52-04:00

One of the Drill Sergeants in my Basic Training company was silent 90% of the time. When he spoke, everybody listened because we knew he wasn't going to say anything again on the subject. He always had a stern look on his face and seemed like the type to stare down a lion and win. He didn't swear, and yet, we were scared to death of him. If that's not effective, I have no idea what is.

Meanwhile, one of the Drill Sergeants in charge of my platoon did things 100% differently. Cussed like morning would never come, cracked jokes left and right, told comical stories, ect. On top of that, he would express disappointment rather than intimidate or yell. Essentially, he got us to listen to him by making us not want to disappoint him rather than through fear. The only exception I recall was when a particular recruit threw the N word his direction. (Completely understandable. I'm impressed he kept as much control as he did in that situation.) Again, his style was effective. Different things work for different people.

Response by SGT Mark Halmrast made Sep 19 at 2017 5:52 AM

2017-09-19T05:52:58-04:00

Everyone remembers "that one time" when you had gut-dread from your drill that went beyond all other moments.

My moment: after chow and before mail call, our drill stood in front of the platoon, stared us down fir a good few minutes, then said in a tone barely above a whisper, "Fourth platoon...you done pissed me off."

Curse? Not needed for a drill to make his point or to be effective. At least not in my experience.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Sep 19 at 2017 6:53 AM

2017-09-19T06:53:56-04:00

I ended up with 4 different drill instructors on Parris Island. I think our original instructor had a medical issue and he disappeared (we never heard why). We then had two others for the remainder of our time on Parris Island. All but one of them swore profusely. They were all effective and communicating their intent and instruction. I think it is a style thing more than anything else.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Sep 19 at 2017 6:54 AM

2017-09-19T06:54:25-04:00

IMHO yes, especially the ones I had, all were Vietnam vets.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Sep 19 at 2017 8:29 AM

2017-09-19T08:29:48-04:00

During OSUT, I had one of each kind. My Senior Drill seldom cursed and if he did, hell fire and brimstone were about to descent. The other drill could not complete a sentence without using the F word. Different styles for different personalities.
When I went through OCS, the Commandant at the time would not allow the TAC's or Students to curse in public. I never saw it to be a detriment to him being able to chew off large portions of an offending candidates posterior. There were a number of times that I was frankly in awe of his ability to loudly and so thoroughly go over a candidates shortcomings as a soldier, potential officer and sometimes even as a human being without ever using a curse word.

Response by SGT Anna Kleinschmidt made Sep 19 at 2017 9:46 AM

2017-09-19T09:46:19-04:00

Cursing is not the intimidating part, tone the way a person carries themselves, the knowledge that they will follow through will be the factor. The best are the ones that are strict but fair, can be trusted to lead and build morale and teamwork while applying strict adherence to the military standard that must be learned and ingrained in a young recruit.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Sep 19 at 2017 4:32 PM

2017-09-19T16:32:18-04:00

He can be more effective in my opinion.

Response by MSG Andrew White made Sep 19 at 2017 4:54 PM

2017-09-19T16:54:00-04:00

I KNEW DRILLS WHO DIDN'T CUSS!!! I COULDN'T SAY THE SAME ABOUT ME!!! LOL

Response by MSG Andrew White made Sep 19 at 2017 5:00 PM

2017-09-19T17:00:20-04:00

I THINK I WAS MOST EFFECTIVE WHEN I CAME IN WITH A WHITE WALL HAIR CUT AND BABY OIL SHINING THE SIDE OF MY HEAD!!! THERE WAS GOING TO BE TROUBLE ON THAT DAY!! AND NO SMILING!!!!! LOL

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 19 at 2017 5:12 PM

2017-09-19T17:12:38-04:00

SPC Darin Taylor My "CC" CTRC Zetterholm Never Cursed Once, He was a Very Orthodox Catholic Man but He Could Verbally Field Strip You without the Cursing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2017 6:58 PM

2017-09-19T18:58:56-04:00

Very much so

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 20 at 2017 4:46 PM

2017-09-20T16:46:53-04:00

UCMJ Article 134 - Indecent Language

If a service member communicates indecent language either orally or in writing to another person, then he is violating the provisions of Article 134. Indecent language is covered under paragraph 89 (Article 134) of the Manual for Court Martial.

The text of statute under Article 134 says that all neglects and disorders which are adverse to the discipline and good order in the armed forces, all conducts which can bring discredit to the armed forces and offenses and crimes not capital, can be punished by convening a general, summary or special court martial as the offense demands.

Elements of the offense
1.The accused has communicated with another individual in writing or orally.
2.The language the accused used was indecent.
3.In the circumstances, the behavior of the accused was adverse to the discipline and good order in the armed forces or the nature of the act brought discredit to the armed forces.

Explanation for the elements

'Indecent' language is defined as language which can offend a person's decency, modesty or propriety or is morally shocking because of its filthy, vulgar or disgusting nature or tendency to create lustful thoughts. Language is said to be 'indecent' if it can reasonably incite libidinous thoughts and corrupt morals. Such language should overstep community standards.

Example of how a service member may be convicted for this offense

It is not necessary that a service member communicates indecent language in words. In U.S Vs Green (CAAF 2010), the accused had made the victim come to him on the pretext of removing a bug from the victim's shirt, but instead he grabbed hold of victim's shirt and pulled it down, making an utterance (mmmm-mmmm-mmmm) in the process. The accused argued that the evidence (the use of mmmm-mmmm-mmmm) was factually and legally insufficient to support a charge of indecent language. The accused nevertheless, convicted for the offense of using indecent language along with several others offenses and punished. The lower court (U.S Navy-Marine Corps Court of Criminal Appeals) upheld the sentence and said that it was not necessary that indecent language constitute actual words.

If the armed forces strictly apply the rule book against indecent language, not a day would go by without violations of the provision or service members prosecuted for using explicit words.

Sometimes the service members are only being boisterous and no one seems to mind. Indeed, many 'indecent' words are common expressions and they are not uttered to incite any libidinous thoughts. In most cases, the language is either treated as provoking speech (no provision for bad conduct discharge) or a simple disorder, unless the accused used the words to incite libidinous thoughts in the other person.

It is very hard to punish a person for language that may not be deemed sexual, obscene, racial or even when it might cause a disturbance or fight. Usually the 1SG, SGM, JAG and commander will sit down and go over the practicalities of the case, before the service member is charged.

In U.S Vs Moore (CMA 1994) the court ruled that obscenity was not covered in the right to speech, under the 1 st amendment. What is 'obscene' is also 'indecent' and such language cannot be afforded protection under the constitution. The court noted that the personal relationship between the utterer and the victim could be used to determine whether the language used was indecent.

Response by 1SG Ken Rossi made Sep 26 at 2017 2:18 PM

2017-09-26T14:18:55-04:00

I went through basic and AIT in 1971 in B-3-3, Fort Ord, my drills were all Viet Nam vets and ran the gammut from quite and scary to loud, profane and scary. Their focus was to teach you how to survive, those were the most frequent words spoken by the senior drill, DS Johnson, he never cussed, called everybody 'Dick' and spoke low and firm, would walk up to you, place the brim of his hat on your chest (he was about 5'6'') and explain in his growling, gruff voice why your actions would get you killed - and scare the hell out of you. He would say, you listed to us, learn from us and you will go to Viet Nam and live; don't listen to us, don't learn and you will still go to Viet Nam and you will die. That made more of an impression than all the cussing and screaming (which also had an effect). 17 years later I was standing in the checkout line at the commissary at Fort Ord and I heard this gruff, growling voice behind me and he said, "Well Dick, I guess your survived!" He was effective!

Response by SFC Steve M. made Sep 27 at 2017 9:00 PM

2017-09-27T21:00:23-04:00

Of course, I however was never able to not use profanity. Despite my best efforts!!

Response by SFC Steve M. made Feb 19 at 2018 7:58 PM

2018-02-19T19:58:44-05:00

Haha... of course!!!

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Feb 19 at 2018 8:17 PM

2018-02-19T20:17:21-05:00

I knew several, their vocabularies were great

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2021 10:20 AM

2021-01-20T10:20:25-05:00

Well technically Under article 134 paragraph 89.. anyone and everyone in uniform is strictly prohibited from calling names and/or cursing. Been a regulation for years yet nobody except a few stellar soldiers follow such a regulation. I'd slap this regulation in my drills face any day bc it just is what it is. Whats the worst that can happen .. couple pushups