Do you think that this art defiles the memory of those who have fallen

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:10:05 -0400

(This failed to post from Mobile device yesterday)

I found this art on Facebook, and there was a rather heated argument as to whether it was appropriate or just plain disrespectful. I decided I wanted to get the opinion from the perspective of those who serve, or have served. The only thing I ask is please don't disrespect anyone else if you disagree with them.

(Edited because forgot to attach image on initial post.)

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made May 26 at 2015 9:10 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:10:04 -0400

There is no picture to comment on. I will cast my vote when I am able t o view the picture.

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made May 26 at 2015 9:16 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:16:46 -0400

Why would you put the bad guy and not the good guy in the picture? I wonder what the artist was trying to portray?

Response by MSG Brad Sand made May 26 at 2015 9:16 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:16:22 -0400

It is probably in poor taste, but it does nothing to defile those who have served. If we started getting rid of everything in poor taste, we would really be busy.

Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made May 26 at 2015 9:23 AM

Sgt Spencer Sikder — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:23:54 -0400

A bit perplexed in how I feel about this. From one perspective I suppose it helps a younger generation (not sure how young since I was in when the first Star Wars film originally came out) to see the nexus of what the wall means to veterans.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made May 26 at 2015 9:27 AM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:27:45 -0400

I am personally torn on this one. As an individual who thinks that Vietnam Veteran's have been ignored until recently, it is just piling on. As a Veteran, I dislike the idea of turning any war memorial into fantasy art. As a Star Wars fan, I see what the artist is trying to accomplish, and as a person who thinks that the current generation has no understanding of sacrifice I think it may at least inspire a couple of young folk to look into the art which may lead to looking into Vietnam. Anything that gets people thinking about service is a good thing.

As to the timing, I definitely do not think that it is an art piece that should have been shared on a day set aside for remembering those who died in defense of our great nation.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 26 at 2015 9:32 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:32:44 -0400

I know some may call it butt hurt but we live in a country of late that seems to make a blood sport out of taking things important to one segment of society and using them callously or in poor form.

This is not art, it is a childish attempt to use something very important to millions of Americans to bestow something (I have no idea what) on to fictional characters that have nothing to do with a war in which 58,000 Americans lost their lives.

Does Darth Vader leaning against the wall indicate the "artist" thinks Vietnam Veterans are as evil and murderous as Vader was(the character) and that the dead, whose names appear on the wall are like storm troopers for the empire?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 9:36 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:36:11 -0400

It is art, Art has offended many many people through the course of time. We all have the right to be offended but not the right to take away the right of the artist (atleast in America). I think it is kind of a cool take on the subject and could relate the loss and sadness we feel regarding those we have lost over the course of time. I think anything that can relate our feelings to a larger group and they gain a bit of understanding is great. It atleast gets the attention of those who have not thought to consider what it really means others and those who have served.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 9:41 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:41:14 -0400

I think that it's a little insensitive, but clever. As a Star Wars fan and SM, I have both positive and negative reactions to it simultaneously. I don't think it defiles the memory of Vietnam vets, I think it's just borrowing an artistic concept. Our real life loss of a war, and the fictional Empire's loss of a war.

Response by SGT David T. made May 26 at 2015 9:47 AM

SGT David T. — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:47:52 -0400

The Star Wars dork in me loves this. I think the symbolism the artist uses is powerful because although we associate the Galactic Empire as evil, and probably the Stormtroopers that served it did not. They served their state as many of us have. So I think it is more of a reflection on the fallen Soldiers regardless of the state they served. How many people in the world, including our own people view our government as evil? At the end of the day a Soldier is something special regardless of the government they serve. We experience things that only other Soldiers can understand. We see bonds form even among former enemies. Just look at a lot of the gatherings at Pearl Harbor. I firmly believe that nothing can defile the sacrifices made by so many. No work of art will ever take away the importance of what they did. Although, I do think that the artist probably could have use a bit different symbolism to get the desired effect.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 26 at 2015 9:47 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 26 May 2015 09:47:37 -0400

This is an interesting variance on the original.

The original is powerful, in ways that cannot describe words, but it is an experience that is extremely limited.

Star Wars however is a "cultural experience." How many of us don't know Star Wars?

That said, are we offended because we have conflicting cultural experiences? The Wall is Personal, which makes it important to us. Much like the Flag is Personal, which is why get offended when people treat it badly.

But art isn't sacred. It's not immune from criticism, or satire, or mocking, or tributes, or whatever you want to call this variation.

This is an interesting take on the original, much like Band of Ballers was an interesting take on Iwo Jima. Whether we like it or not is Subjective however, like all art.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 26 at 2015 10:04 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Tue, 26 May 2015 10:04:25 -0400

Does this art defile the memory? No, I don't think so. It may not be entirely appropriate but I don't think it defiles or denigrates the original artwork. I'm a big Star Wars fan though so my views might be slightly skewed from the masses. I can appreciate the symbolism the artist was most likely trying to convey. Vader may have given in to the Dark Side but he wasn't inherently evil. I think we could say the same for many of our leaders today as well. Most of them are good people at heart but have been corrupted by politics and self-interests.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 10:12 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 10:12:34 -0400

This is art, art has been controversial from the beginning. Its not real, obviously meant as a joke. People need to quit being offended over everything that they disagree with. We all dont think alike...therefore realistically we can never 100% be on the same page and get along. Reminds me of the "Feelings Hurt Document". If you dont have thick skin the Military might not be the best place for you...after all we fight everyday for the right of the people to have freedom. Once we start limiting freedom because someone is offended of feelings are hurt then we no longer stand for what is right and or our citizens freedom. Toughen up. Why would we want to linit a right we die for?

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 26 at 2015 10:14 AM

SrA Edward Vong — Tue, 26 May 2015 10:14:05 -0400

I like it.

Response by SGT Kevin Brown made May 26 at 2015 10:15 AM

SGT Kevin Brown — Tue, 26 May 2015 10:15:24 -0400

At first glance I couldn't help but think how this picture is an insult to the thousands of lives lost in the Vietnam War. After taking a minute to step back, look at it again and separating my immediate emotional response from this, I see it differently.

This is merely an imitation of art imitating life. Though the original is in memorial of our fallen during Vietnam, all countries (or galactic empires in this case) morn their heroes and honor them (usually utilizing statues such as the wall). Since everything in this picture is geared towards the empire, aside from the imitation itself, I see a general missing his troops (even if they are the bad side of the force).

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 10:43 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 10:43:59 -0400

No. It's a lighter way of portraying the artists message.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 26 at 2015 11:11 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 26 May 2015 11:11:11 -0400

I don't think it's in bad taste. If we look at Darth Vader, in the end he over came evil and was good. To me this is the new Darth Vader who is now sorry for the loss of men under his command when he was over powered by the dark side. He is now truly sorry for the loss.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made May 26 at 2015 1:08 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Tue, 26 May 2015 13:08:26 -0400

So, the artist was probably trying to be funny about Star Wars, not fully appreciating what it might mean to the subjects of the original image (above).

However, this does bear a segue into a VERY good article about lack of realism, tactical and emotional, in Science Fiction movies warfare here: http://taskandpurpose.com/onscreen-science-fiction-military-justice/

It's like they're stuck militarily in some weird combination of pre WWI infantry and armor and early WWII aircraft tactics. Their understanding of the moral cost of war is stuck in a mythological knights and dragons era that never really existed. By failing to apply any real rigor to the depiction of the science, art, reality, tactics, operations, strategy morals and ethics of warfare in our "action" or scifi movies we perpetuate the divide between the military and civilians.

Onscreen Science Fiction Is Not Doing The Military Justice

Onscreen science fiction series ignore military innovation, real warfare strategy, and the grim reality of loss of life in battle.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made May 26 at 2015 1:10 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Tue, 26 May 2015 13:10:03 -0400

I think its in poor taste, maybe not defile, but in poor taste, I know a lot of people will say "big deal" but in a way it kind of is. I would rather art like this not happen, but at the same time I'm not going to condemn the artist.

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made May 26 at 2015 1:34 PM

SA Harold Hansmann — Tue, 26 May 2015 13:34:01 -0400

I think using Luke Skywalker or Princess Leah with rebels and Ewoks might have been a bit more appropriate rather than using Darth Vader and storm troopers

Response by SPC Mark Beard made May 26 at 2015 1:49 PM

SPC Mark Beard — Tue, 26 May 2015 13:49:34 -0400

not only do i think this is wrong im very shocked but I shouldn't be by what i see how our flag is being treated I wonder if the person who did this art has ever been to the wall this is in very bad taste indeed

Response by SPC Mark Beard made May 26 at 2015 1:49 PM

SPC Mark Beard — Tue, 26 May 2015 13:49:40 -0400

you could say our flag is just cloth nothing more it may be art but its in very poor taste im offended

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 1:50 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 13:50:58 -0400

I'm sure there's some deep meaning that gives this "art" significance, but I don't like it. It detracts, in my humble opinion, from the solemnity of the wall and what it stands for. I assume these are some sort of movie or sci-fi characters. I get that it's "just art," but I vote that it is in poor taste. (Remember that urinating on the Christian cross was also considered "art." Pitiful.)

Response by SPC Christian Ziegler made May 26 at 2015 2:37 PM

SPC Christian Ziegler — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:37:42 -0400

Everything is in the eye of the beholder. When I look at it at first there is anger at the artist for even thinking he could get away with something like this, but then I look at it again and notice his head is hung in loss, at that time I wonder do all the worlds soldiers morn and feel the loss of there brothers and sisters in arms like we. There is nothing like that bond, and for the longest time I thought It was just us that cared so much for each other.

This Image got me thinking. I wonder if that was the intent of the artist, I would really like to hope so. But then again what the hell do I know. Scouts Out

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 2:59 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 14:59:54 -0400

I think it is amusing. Should it have been posted as a Memorial day anyhting? No. But on the whole, it is a Lucas-inspired, amusing twist on the way that people view their Fallen. Do we really think the enemy doesnt mourn their losses? Should we deny them that right? We were somone's enemy too, after all. Was it appropriate? No. Should there have been a big deal made about it? No, probably not.

Response by Cpl Anthony Pearson made May 26 at 2015 3:00 PM

Cpl Anthony Pearson — Tue, 26 May 2015 15:00:57 -0400

I try not to get too worked up about artistic stuff like this. If it was disrespectful, such as extremist muslim groups being portrayed in the artwork, I would be pissed off. But Star Wars seems pretty mundane and not very disrespectful.

I guess perception is everything.

I'm not a Vietnam veteran, and it is very possible that they see this and feel EXTREME anger and outrage.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 4:55 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 16:55:08 -0400

This is art; albeit tacky, tasteless artwork, intended for an audience of mouth-breathing naval-gazers who are consigned to dwell in the basement's of their parents forever. Just my take on the typical fan of this type of artwork, but the the beauty of this, and all art in the U.S. is that those who are pictured in the original piece that inspired this parody died in defense of the freedom to produce pieces like this without fear of recrimination, persecution, or penalty.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made May 26 at 2015 6:10 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Tue, 26 May 2015 18:10:56 -0400

There is a cross culture approach that I think the artist used to soften the blow of what he really wanted to say.
Vietnam's greatest complaint about our venture into their civil war was that it deprived them of their self determination. It was, depending on your interpretation of the laws, an illegal military action as well. And our first post WW II foray into imperialism/colonialism.
Are American Service Members just stormtroopers for a political agenda? The big bully on the block? or is there more to us? Do we believe in what we do? Is there a greater good for which we fight? Is there a need to restore a balance to the world? Is that what we were doing? or were we misguided?

It is art, it is there to make you think and to question your reality.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 12:14 PM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 12:14:31 -0400

It's art but it is definitely poor taste. The monument represents all the American Vietnam War deaths, this art cheapens their respective contributions and of course their ultimate sacrifice whether they died in combat or not. How is Darth Vader who represents evil and selfishness, equal to a Vietnam War veteran who survived the war and grieves for the loss of comrades and deals with the survivor's guilt that sometimes comes with surviving combat or a traumatic event? He does not and therefore while the First Amendment protects this artist's right to modify the original painting they do so with poor taste and a total lack of understanding what the Vietnam veterans went through.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made May 27 at 2015 12:43 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Wed, 27 May 2015 12:43:13 -0400

PERSONALLY: I don't care for it. I am a Star Wars fan, but think that this went just a bit too far. With that being said, I am also not going to plan on any violent shock and awe retaliation to it. I will not support it by buying it and will choose to not observe it when offered that opportunity. It IS still a free country and while I don't care for it, I will not stop this or ridicule others if they should happen to like it.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made May 27 at 2015 4:59 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 27 May 2015 16:59:07 -0400

I'm a huge Star Wars nerd. But I would never post this anywhere. It takes away from it's intended use of respect forthe fallen. If this was originally posted by the Star Wars community, I would find it very clever.

Response by SN Earl Robinson made May 27 at 2015 5:15 PM

SN Earl Robinson — Wed, 27 May 2015 17:15:15 -0400

It's just Dumb

Response by SGT Rick Ash made May 27 at 2015 5:48 PM

SGT Rick Ash — Wed, 27 May 2015 17:48:15 -0400

"The Wall" is very special to me. The names of my fallen brothers are inscribed there. And though I am a huge fan of Star Wars I don't think there is anywhere the two can meet.

I know the genealogy of Darth and several of the Storm Troopers. And who is the character depicted to Darth's right hand side? It looks like a German Uniform.

But Star Wars is fictional. The Wall is as real as it gets. Besides, no Storm Trooper ever covered my six or kept me from stepping on a Bouncing Betty. Just sayin'....

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 6:00 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 18:00:40 -0400

If everyone felt the same way about art, it wouldn't be art.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 27 at 2015 9:41 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 27 May 2015 21:41:29 -0400

They are clones. Silly clones can die. I am not serious. Even clones are important and worth trying to save. Each are individuals who think and operate as an individual and as a team when called upon. Even though its a fictional, clones are Soldiers too but in a fictional sense. Maybe this is their wall and they are morning the lost of their battle buddies. I don't see this art work as disrespectful. If I was an artist or maybe just fooling around, I would leave military memorials out of reach for entertainment.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 3:20 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2015 03:20:42 -0400

It's fine. People need to stop being so frigging sensitive. If that were painted on the actual wall, then it would me reasonable to assume that many would find it offensive.

Response by COL Gregory Berry made May 28 at 2015 2:00 PM

COL Gregory Berry — Thu, 28 May 2015 14:00:25 -0400

In my opinion yes. Clearly in very poor taste.

Response by SPC Thomas Strachan made May 30 at 2015 11:44 AM

SPC Thomas Strachan — Sat, 30 May 2015 11:44:10 -0400

Nothing can defile them. The honored dead are permanent, set in stone. There is no art that can diminish what they did or sully their memories.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2015 11:49 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 May 2015 11:49:40 -0400

It's a little nerdy. I can see how some could be offended, there's actual names on that wall, not storm troopers...and we all know what it's like to feel the names of loved ones gone.
But it's art, first amendment and all, people will draw things others won't like. I'm not going to shoot a reporter over it.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Jun 10 at 2015 4:02 PM

PO1 Donald Hammond — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:02:44 -0400

I look at it as showing that no matter which side you are on in a conflict we need to mourn our fallen, especially those who may not have had a choice in serving.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Jun 10 at 2015 4:06 PM

PO1 Donald Hammond — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:06:28 -0400

I am perplexed in that this is like showing Custer and all his fallen men. Custer died too. Darth Vader died. So how is it he is on one side of the wall and his "men" are on the wall?

And I doubt Darth Vader would have mourned the lowly fallen storm trooper anyway.

Not well thought out by this nerdy type.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Jun 17 at 2015 2:05 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 14:05:12 -0400

I don't see it as art per se, but with the increase in technology available to do things such as Photoshop and other graphics art programs, your going to see a lot more stuff that some will call art.
It doesn't bother me because I don't look at it as anything more than something someone with a vivid imagination has done and they are obviously a Star Wars fan, what if it had been Star Trek? No matter its someone's rendering and they wanted to share it, maybe its in tribute to a friend who was a service member and a Star Wars fan.

Response by SPC P. John Zimmer made Jul 21 at 2017 5:16 PM

SPC P. John Zimmer — Fri, 21 Jul 2017 17:16:52 -0400

I see both sides of the argument and I am torn. I am honor bound to the military but I truly appreciate Star Wars. I think if something as small as one picture bothers you, you need to move on.