Do you think the Air Force should replace the waist measurement with pull ups?

SSgt Paul Esquibel — Sun, 01 Nov 2015 15:46:47 -0500

Many people disagree with the waist measurement within the AF pt test, I don't disagree with the measurement but more so it's value. I would suggest the waist measurement still be done just like height weight is and should you exceed the standard then it is noted in your official medical record. Add pull ups to the test as I think this would determine a well rounded fitness ability of cardio and strength. Should you at a later date develop a disease or condition that can be traced back to obesity then Tricare or VA wouldn't not cover your treatment. What's your opinion?

Response by PO1 John Miller made Nov 2 at 2015 12:47 AM

PO1 John Miller — Mon, 02 Nov 2015 00:47:39 -0500

I don't necessarily agree that a condition related to obesity should not be covered by Tricare/VA. It's health insurance and it should stay that way.

As to pull ups, I wouldn't necessarily agree either. True they're one of the best ways of determining upper body strength. But, there aren't a whole lot of jobs that require an above average amount of upper body strength. For those jobs that do, they should have unique PT standards.

As to the waist measurement, I think it could be fine tuned. For the most part, most people with large waistlines are overweight. However, some people who lift weights heavily and are body builders/power lifters have large lat muscles, and thus it increases the size of their waistline.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Nov 2 at 2015 10:29 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Mon, 02 Nov 2015 10:29:18 -0500

We're talking about a few different issues here.

The "ties to obesity" issue is really a non-starter. Here's why. Any chance that an "insurance provider" can use to not pay for treatment, they will. Get flagged overweight/bodycomp one time, and those knee injuries become your problem, not the governments, even though you jumped out of planes for a living. Obesity exacerbates joint problems. Or reverse the situation, torque a knee, and put on 10lb, and get flagged for weight while you are healing, and now the entire situation is your fault. See the issue?

AS for pull ups, they are a decent measure of upper body strength, but they are comparable to push-ups. I actually have a harder time with push-ups than pull-ups, just because I'm able to use different muscle groups. It's never really been a cardio exercise for me though, just because the event is so short.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Nov 2 at 2015 10:29 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Mon, 02 Nov 2015 10:29:44 -0500

It's a better judge of fitness

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2015 6:16 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Nov 2015 18:16:00 -0500

Every service has a body composition component...the waist is ours. We can't replace it but we could for sure make it better.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 6:45 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 06:45:19 -0500

I don't have a problem with the waist but I also don't think you should fail a pt test if you achieve a passing composition score. Adding another arm workout is retarded though.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 8:28 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 08:28:41 -0500

Study after study shows that having a 40" waist is detrimental to your long term health. The goal of fitness tests isn't to make sure you are perfectly fit, but rather living a healthy and fit lifestyle. As such, I think it meets all of its intended goals.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Nov 3 at 2015 10:14 AM

SrA Matthew Knight — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 10:14:53 -0500

First things first I don't think that there should be anything that bars someone from receiving their coverage. If you stayed in the service long enough to earn that right then it shouldn't be snatched from you under any basis other than maybe intentional self harm.

Now, for the waste measurement I think it should stay but as others have said I don't feel as though it should be a determining factor toward failure. So long as you can prove that it isn't hindering you as far as the other components go and you're not bursting out of your uniforms you should be good but it can still be a good thing to keep on your mind to stay healthy.

As for the pull ups, I don't really see the need unless you are talking drop the push ups too. No sense in making people do two strength tests on essentially the same areas of the body. I think push ups work fine right now anyway.

What I do think we should do (although I know it will never happen) is have career field based PT tests. This would be a better fit for the waste measurement as I still think every AFSC should look relatively fit and healthy in all uniform combinations. Where things would start to change is the actual strength and aerobic portions of the test. I don't think someone in Finance, Personnel or even Weather for that matter really needs to run a mile and a half. Realistically I can't think of any situation where someone is going to run a mile and a half straight without a stop at some point anyway, especially in a combat situation as you're just making yourself a slightly moving target for A MILE AND A HALF. You're going to stop to take cover and assess the situation at some point there. The only case where I will argue a career field should have to run the distance is Security Forces for their law enforcement functions.

The same goes for the strength portion of the test. Here in weather I think that's the component we should focus on because we have field weather equipment that isn't extremely heavy but can be tough to move by ones self depending on how strong the person is. We should all be required to be able to transport, set up and tear down said equipment as an individual without assistance for our physical test. Someone in Finance shouldn't though because they don't have any aspect of their job that requires that ability.

Basically we need to make our PT test more field oriented. Look at what we might have to do in an operational setting and find ways to tune the test to that. Some things should be standard, a body carry/drag could be implemented because any one of us could be in a situation where we need to get a wounded wingman to safety. Things like that are what we should focus on. Obviously the FAC would no longer be able to run PT tests because there would be so many different varieties but you could make administration of the Fitness Test a career field special duty. Said individuals would also be the unit PTLs who would be the leaders of individual unit PT to make sure people are keeping up with the standards.

That would be my idea of perfect Air Force PT. It would be one hell of a pain in the ass to implement but I think it would work better than the one we have now.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 4:25 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 16:25:23 -0500

I feel that the run times should be a little bit more for men than what they are. As for pull ups most people would be good if they could do 5. I don't think it should be added to the air force fit test. Most people can't manage any ot test or prep for it or do it weekly due to the ever growing hours and work load plus programs and additional duty. The pushow ups and sit ups is plenty enough.

Response by TSgt Ronald Reed made Nov 3 at 2015 5:40 PM

TSgt Ronald Reed — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 17:40:37 -0500

YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE WEIGHT REQUIREMENTS. I SEE SO MANY OFFICERS AND TOP NCO'S THAT ARE OBVIOUSLY OVERWEIGHT. ONE PLACE TO LOOK IS IN THE BASE HOSPITAL. AND THESE ARE THE MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS THAT ARE HANDING OUT WEIGHT LOSS REQUIREMENTS AND HOW TO LOSE WEIGHT. POOR SYSTEM THAT ONLY
HURTS THE MIDDLE GRADE NCO'S, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY GET CLOSE TO RETIREMENT, WHERE THEY ARE DISCHARGED FOR BEING OVERWEIGHT. SOME WITH OVER 18+ YEARS OF SERVICE. THIS IS ALL WRONG AND NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED
BY A GROUP OF NON-INTERESTED CIVILIANS. THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME REGARDS FOR ALL THOSE HEARS OF SERVICE. NUFF SAID.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 8:37 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 20:37:59 -0500

I wish pull ups were added for the heck of it! I also wish that we made being fit a bigger part of our culture. At that point I think adding pull ups would help, but at this point fitness is low on the AF's priority list even though we use Fit to Fight as a punch line. Maybe one day!

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Nov 4 at 2015 10:02 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 10:02:40 -0500

I agree with the waist management portion of the test but not as a pass/fail criteria. It doesn't have any indication of actual combat/fitness performance. Let me expand on these thoughts. As a commander, I had the two extremes. I had one individual that was tall and had a 29 inch waist, could run like the wind but struggled on the push ups and situps...just had no upper body strength, no matter how much he trained and ate (junk by the way). On the other hand I had a top of the line fit guy with a body fat of less that 5% who was a gym rat and could run, push up, and sit up but his waist was a 40. Based on his bone structure, his build, etc, if he had a waist less than 38, he would have looked anorexic and probably couldn't perform. He watched his food intake and what went into his body. Now take the two in combat, which one would you prefer...I would take the second one all day because I know he has the strength and endurance to cover me and others when we were outside the wire. Another example is that a Wing Commander that stepped aside several years back. He passed the test all the way around on the fitness part and did extremely well. However, his waist was over a 40 so he failed the entire test. Tall and very fit man and didn't look fat because his build carried it. However, because of the waist portion he failed the test and could never get below 40 inches. Therefore, we lost a very experienced and talented leader. This happens all the time in both officer and enlisted ranks.
I am not an exercise physiologist and I don't know the answer but I do feel that the waist measurement should not be an automatic disqualifier. I don't know if the pullups are the answer either. Maybe the answer is to go to a combat fitness exam since more and more Air Force personnel are in the fight. Or look at what the Navy is doing...going to a fitness test based on your AFSC.
I don't agree with Tricare or VA not covering the costs...that is a slippery slope...if that happens, what else will they not cover. When you retire, that is a system that is supposed to take care of you ...period. You served your time and gave everything for those years and now it is the governments time to take care of you. Don't give the Tricare or VA bean counters any wiggle room because an inch will turn into a mile.

Response by Sgt Jimmy White made Nov 4 at 2015 10:16 PM

Sgt Jimmy White — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 22:16:03 -0500

The only problem I have is many disease's that are caused by obesity can cause obesity as well. Double edged sword, Heart Disease can cause obesity due to the stress it places on a body for example.

Response by TSgt Craig Shoun made Nov 9 at 2015 10:10 AM

TSgt Craig Shoun — Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:10:11 -0500

I myself was personally effected by this. Generally an average healthy male should have more than 3 inches of fat to even live (if I'm not mistaken). So if you have wide hips or have a heavy frame, like a co-worker/troop of mine did, the waist measurement is going to screw you every time. My troop was big boned, and had a natural bone structure measurement of around 38-39 inches, which as anyone in the AF knows 39 is the max. Any more and you auto fail the test from the start. So, since you have to have some type of body fat to live, he fails the waist measurement every time. Recently, I learned they are not renewing his oath to serve his country, because of a flawed test measurement taking system. Thus they lost one of the best engine mechanics, I have ever seen in my entire career. Now though he is working for a plane manufacturing company making 6 figures.

My own problem ended with a mix result. I was lucky in the aspect, I was on a medical board and hit retirement. I ended up barely passing my last fitness test 6 months before I retired, but was on a waiver for the majority of the test due to a venous problem the military couldn't diagnosis probably, until I went to the VA. But I had to have the waist measurement. Needless to say I barely passed it, with some difficulty.

Response by SrA John Noll made Sep 3 at 2018 5:53 AM

SrA John Noll — Mon, 03 Sep 2018 05:53:18 -0400

What about the airman who can bench 600lbs and squats 1200lbs and can crunch abs with 800lbs but has a waist at 42inches with 12 percent bodyfat? Should he get reprimanded because of his waist?