Do you think the Military basic training will ever stop getting softer?

2014-10-23T00:20:56-04:00

I cant say that i had a rough basic training experience, i went in 2004, back when BDU's were still around, back when they were still able to smoke you, we didnt get cell phones, or TV, or Internet, hell we werent even allowed milk, just Water...Water.....and more Water. But now days i see new recruits posting pictures of themselves DURING basic training, when are we going to see any of that stop? let basic training go back to what its meant to do, to turn civilians into soldiers, ( im excluding the marines on this one because we all know they stay true), we need soldiers, not boyscouts!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 12:22 AM

2014-10-23T00:22:48-04:00

No. I do not understand why they can't succeed without whining and simple 9 weeks with no gadgets.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 4:19 AM

2014-10-23T04:19:32-04:00

I agree with you. It was 8 weeks long when I went and then they changed it to 9 weeks and I think now, it's 10 weeks long. So they have an extra week for training and are still producing soldiers who cannot meet the standards. I got one phone call a week, if I was lucky and my platoon wasn't stripped of privilieges. Mail Call was the biggest event of every day. I undertand the push with technology and wanting to remain at the forefront of technology, but 2 months without your technology won't kill you. Posting pictures of yourself during Basic Training? Ummmm, is anyone reviewing any of these for OPSEC violations? I'm an older solider, when I enlisted there was no war, I grew up in the garrison type of Army. I understand that we tranistioned to an Army at war. But aren't we still trying to produce Soldiers, not just teens in a uniform? We are a profession, not a Facebook status.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 9:05 AM

2014-10-23T09:05:54-04:00

Why are "stress cards" still brought up? They're not in use now, and I've not been able to meet one person who can claim this policy was in effect when they went through

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 12:20 PM

2014-10-23T12:20:31-04:00

Until you stop having outside influences, social media ect in BCT and OUST it will continue down the path it is.
This should be hard physical and demanding. Currently it's not

Response by SGT Scott Curtice made Oct 23 at 2014 12:30 PM

2014-10-23T12:30:32-04:00

I would think it has to at some point, but I doubt it, I know I had it easy at Fort Benning back in 1987/88, and the infrantryman coming out of their even three years later had it even easier, can't imagine what basic is like nowadays, I remember stories from privates about stress cards they can pull out to get DS off their back at a certain moment, discipline was out the window with a lot of new privates in my units toward the end of my 12 years in the Army. What I noticed most was how little soldiers seemed to be broken down in basic, and braking us down and building us back up was always an important cornerstone of basic wasn't it?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 12:42 PM

2014-10-23T12:42:18-04:00

There's no denying that basic training sucked. It sucked every day, from the second I woke up to the second I racked out. The last thing I want to say is I had an "easier" basic training than those in the past, but there were times where it just seemed like it was a step by step process and we only did things to do it, no actual motivation to get it 100% right. I've never heard of stress cards until about a week ago, but just ridiculous... Also I hear stories about people having their phones for the whole basic training.... UNREAL. I felt I changed the most when I was separated from the civilian world and that's just not happening anymore (Ft. Benning is the exception).

Response by CPO Jon Campbell made Oct 24 at 2014 2:42 PM

2014-10-24T14:42:16-04:00

I was watching a video of Coast Guard basic training recently and it actually looked a lot more physically challenging than when I went through.
I met an old WWII Coast Guard veteran in Harbor Beach, MI once and he told me that he went to basic training there during the war. His basic training consisted of 6 weeks that were mostly spent rowing a row boat back and forth from the lighthouse to the pier. Once his orders came through he was sent to convoy duty in the Atlantic. He said he had never been on a ship and didn't have any idea what to do.
Today, basic training seems to be much more focused and set on developing sucessful recruits rather than just knocking them into physical shape and weeding out the cry babies.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Oct 24 at 2014 5:08 PM

2014-10-24T17:08:49-04:00

It started going soft when a marines "mommy" complained to her congressman in the late 70s or early 80s that the marine DIs were too rough on her baby boy.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 6:35 PM

2014-10-24T18:35:45-04:00

While I don't agree with everything you said, some of your points are very accurate. I will broadly agree that Basic Training has gotten much softer in terms of learned discipline and expectations of recruits both in the beginning and end. I will caveat that by saying that much of this is the fault of a weakened NCO corps, and until we take responsibility for that not much else should be addressed. That said, civilians and politicians have had quite a hand in the pot the last ten years and have sadly been responsible for many of the actual changes you have noticed. The Army has the unfortunately large footprint that makes it perfect for cultural experimentation and "test" studies that lead to some non-traditional changes within our ranks. Sheer size and obscurity is essentially what protects the USMC from these same issues. I absolutely hate the profound civilian presence that continually meddles in what I still consider a professional Military force, despite their undying attempts at turning the Army into a corporate franchise. But the one thing I hate more is the declining professionalism within our NCO corps that not only facilitates the meddling but seems to exacerbate it as well. There are unlimited tools at the Drill Sergeant's disposal to use in training a better prepared and more capable Soldier than we have ever seen. Many of those NCO's just are not the caliber necessary to what is required. For this I blame both the Army and the individual NCO. The truth is that the Army should better support IMT by not only assigning more and better qualified Drill Sergeants, but also better qualified recruits. I don't believe that the softest guy or girl should be able to meet low quals and then be automatically transformed by some burnt out DS who has been running a PLT singlehandedly, into a super warfighter. That is complete bullshit. I still view Basic Training as part job interview, and many people just don't belong in the Armed Forces in any capacity. To say that this is a generational problem that we (as Drill Sergeants) have to overcome is ridiculous. Do you think Russia, China and Iran are recruiting lifelong couch potato lazy asses into their warfighting forces? Absolutely not. Having made that point as well do I think many Drill Sergeants could be doing far more with those that do oath into our Army? Absolutely. I hope I succeeded at engaging that fairly and impartially.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 9:31 PM

2014-10-24T21:31:55-04:00

Let the Basic horror stories commence.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 9:58 PM

2014-10-24T21:58:39-04:00

Nope.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Oct 24 at 2014 11:51 PM

2014-10-24T23:51:43-04:00

I went through Basic in 2009, D co. 2/47 Ft Benning Ga.

- We didn't have females
- we never once wore gloves or fleeces
- There was no sleep requirement
- No such thing as a stress card
- No phone calls until the very end
- If you sucked at being a soldier, you were kicked out, not pushed through so some other command had to deal with you.
- Our Drill sgt's cursed at us...

I heard nowdays, they give out these stress card's and sleeping quotas and what not. It wasnt that hard when I went through, now its exponentially easier... Pretty much anyone can get in now.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2014 2:39 AM

2014-10-25T02:39:29-04:00

I have noticed that a lot depends on where you attend Basic/AIT or OSUT and to a point, what your MOS is. For example, I went to OSUT at Leonard Wood in 2012 as a combat engineer and we had nothing. No cell phones, no internet, no passes until the end of AIT phase, phone calls only the end of each phase. I can count the number of times I spoke to my wife and kids on one hand during the 15 weeks I was at Leonard Wood. Our Drill Sergeants smoked up, often for a very long time, cursed at us, and I had one Drill that had the habit of jamming his campaign hat into the forehead of those troublesome privates. I have spoken with other soldiers that attended Basic/AIT in other locations, and they have different stories to tell. I have noticed that often the "combat MOSes" (infantry, combat engineer, etc.) still retain their harsh environments for Basic/AIT. I attribute this to the fact that all of my Drills were combat engineers, with multiple deployments.

I really like what WO1 Palmer had to say, "As leaders and especially our Drills, we have a set of rules that we operate in. How you choose to do it is up to you. Good Drills can be very creative and know their stuff. Trust me the Trainees know which ones they are." This holds very true, I know which of the Drills in my company were creative and good leaders. Honestly, their job has gotten to be very hard as the caliber of people joining the military has drastically changed. I respect everyone of my Drill Sergeants, and even keep in contact with a few of them to this day. These are the Drills that inspire me to do my best and keep striving forward, with the hopes that one day I can inspire a new recruit as I was inspired.

SSG Allen also made a very good point in his post about the decline in professionalism throughout the NCO corps. I may not be a NCO, but I am not blind or deaf and can see when someone lacks the qualities it takes to be an effective NCO. I do believe that the issues with basic training cannot fully be addressed, until the other issues that are at the core are addressed.

Response by PFC Stephens Clark made Oct 25 at 2014 8:43 AM

2014-10-25T08:43:09-04:00

Rough tough Training is what these Soldiers need. just like it was in the 70-80's

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2014 2:19 PM

2014-10-25T14:19:11-04:00

Downvoted because you think stress cards are still a thing. This has been an urban myth since I came in over 16 years ago. They didn't do it then and they don't do it now, especially in today's setting when everyone knows it's a myth.
As for Air Force BMT, it's been in a wierd place for a couple of reasons. First the abuse scandal, but I've also heard the head of the BMT program didn't feel that the yelling was effective leadership or a teaching tool. That person has since retired so we may see a change come down. In retrospect, I think the yelling was there simply to rattle us. As for cell phones, I've talked to my troops, none of them were allowed cell phones. I have heard however that some intructors would allow them during the reward breaks the trainees would recieve if they did well enough, but this was solely at the instructor's discretion.;

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2014 10:14 PM

2014-10-25T22:14:38-04:00

The AF Basic has become the exact same way; kids get smoke breaks, cell phones, hell, they even get base liberty on weekends... without having to earn it!

No, the PC military is only going to get MORE PC until someone realizes what its doing. I can no longer yell and scream when someone messes up, it may hurt their feelings, and in turn I'll get an ass chewing.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 4:46 PM

2014-10-26T16:46:08-04:00

Our influx of personnel is a direct reflection of the country's culture (and its decay), so this is something we will always see going on, sadly. I share the OP's sentiment, Basic Training should remain rigid, demanding, and non accommodating, this is the only way to ensure that we allow in only the best.

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made Oct 26 at 2014 4:49 PM

2014-10-26T16:49:21-04:00

Until we get rid of so many trying to be politically correct and trying so hard for their "sweet little child" to keep from growing up, no

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Oct 27 at 2014 2:32 PM

2014-10-27T14:32:55-04:00

I went to Navy boot camp in 75 in San Diego. The Marines had just killed a Down's Syndrome kid in boot camp. The new rules included no "touching the recruits". So my Company Commander, who was a Senior Chief Signalman injured in Viet Nam and given the choice of medical retirement with 28 years in or pushing boots, would give us a choice .... do a billion pushups or get slapped in the the head. As you can imagine, most of us took the slap up side the head.

Of course if you can handle the physical part of boot camp, the rest is just a mind game. Lay low. Do what you're told and you will do fine.

Response by SGT William B. made Oct 28 at 2014 6:33 PM

2014-10-28T18:33:51-04:00

Well, everyone else is commenting on your post, but I want to comment on the picture. One look, and even I could tell that one of these things is not like the other! Where is that private's gloves???

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 7:42 PM

2014-10-28T19:42:36-04:00

Well as with all branches I am assuming... there is always someone somewhere who wants to change policies, to which we all see as "softening up" of boot camp. We all just adapt to new changes as we all do and eventually it becomes the new norm. Most of the changes are safety concerns someone had. We all know that we have different strengths and weaknesses, so there must have been some safety issue that had happened to prompt some of these changes. After all we don't want to put anyone's life in danger just to pass boot camp or do we?

oh and I do not agree with the cell phone thing. I heard about the cell phones in boot camp and I call BS...

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 3:13 AM

2015-01-31T03:13:26-05:00

The way basic training in the Army is being conducted now is a joke. Soldiers can have cell phones all the time and aren't allowed to be smoked or get too stressed out. I don't see it stopping anytime soon because the Army is allowing this new generation of Soldiers to be catered to. If the Army thinks the suicide rate is high now, wait until all these Soldiers that were never subjected to stress and allowed to always be on the phone have to fight in a country with no internet, no hot chow, and no bathrooms/showers. They won't be able to handle it.

Response by SSG Gene Carroll SR. made Sep 27 at 2015 11:22 PM

2015-09-27T23:22:09-04:00

Well now I was in basic training in 1963 and I believe it is in no way like it was then to many cay's mom pops and they would call their congress men or senator frends to change things for you not being the best for you in combat situation and there is no mom and pops to do things for you. I spent 12 years in the army and 2 years national guard. I believe you where called to be a man in any branch of service for your country.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Sep 30 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-09-30T16:59:51-04:00

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member - absolutely spot-on, SPC. You'd make a good DS. Think on it

Response by PFC Joseph Anthony made Sep 30 at 2015 5:51 PM

2015-09-30T17:51:55-04:00

I think it will get softer but the good news is Islamic Radicals have promised to use sharper knives

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 6:51 PM

2015-09-30T18:51:30-04:00

PC, individuality, this power point, that power point.....It takes away from what Basic Training is actually meant for; Tearing down the civilian mindset and instilling the Soldier mindset. Why do they even bother teaching these kids to shoot a rifle, throw a grenade, react to contact, or conduct land navigation if the system is just going to let them do what they want when they want. Soldiers spend more time figuring out how to get around the regulation via IG loopholes than actually learning the regulations in which they are supposed to follow. DS's take FB selfies with new Soldiers, treat them like the buddies, hand out hugs and high fives and little pats on the bottoms when they do what they are supposed to do. I see nothing to come out of Basic Training but entitlement, individuality, extreme PC and the downfall of one of the greatest fighting forces. What happened to turning a boy into a man, teaching trust, honor, integrity, loyalty, combat readiness, motivation to be the best Soldier you can be and to take care of your leadership and battle buddies.........I hope it turns around but I do not see it happening when the RA side has all the same issues....

Response by TSgt James Emanuel made May 3 at 2016 7:02 PM

2016-05-03T19:02:29-04:00

I've heard that bullying and harassing language is taboo. The military is different. It has different laws. If the military has to be careful not to hurt somebody's feelings, ok, fine. No more yelling or cursing. So here's the plan ...

The individuals will be addressed as recruits. During the first week, the recruit will wear civvies. PT gear will be their own. Instead of an oath of enlistment, the recruit will sign a consent form volunteering to undergo military preparation training without pay. This training will take place at suitable locations across the US. Similar to SEAL BUD/S training, this is period to find out if they are committed to the service. He/she will be taught how to make a bed and be squared away in the barracks. Then it is continuous PT and close order drill - in civvies. All this time, the DI/TI is constantly reminding and encouraging the recruits that they can quit at anytime. If the recruit can not/will not comply with directions, he/she will be washed out immediately by the DI/TI. This is not a subject of discussion or negotiation. He/she will be escorted to the orderly room or unit admin, out processed immediately and put on the next available flight to their home of record. The recruit will be housed in and confined to a transient billet, which could be several days, until flight time. At the end of this preparation training, the recruit will take the oath of enlistment, be issued uniforms and then continue basic training. The military spends huge sums to take these kids right off the street, swear 'em in and then hope for the best.

This is just a broad outline.

Response by SGT John Meredith made Sep 27 at 2017 11:12 PM

2017-09-27T23:12:57-04:00

Hell when I went through Basic Training they had soda machines in the chow hall.I ran everywhere, even in the chow line.We were called every name in the book.Pushed to our limits and then some.But we did get milk,sodas and coffee.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Jun 3 at 2018 12:54 AM

2018-06-03T00:54:18-04:00

I did Basic training back in 1965 and our training NCOs were always saying how easy it was compared to theirs, so I guess every cycle is the same.

Response by Cpl Kevin Henderson made Jan 5 at 2019 11:11 AM

2019-01-05T11:11:16-05:00

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0SihQghhTg4

Funny, but probably true.
*Warning:May contain language offensive to some*

BASIC Training (Week 1) 1966 VS 1996 VS 2016

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2019 1:52 AM

2019-01-06T01:52:57-05:00

Pardon me SPC Bergseid, what part of a recruit posting a picture makes it not seem like they are successful in their training?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2019 3:23 AM

2019-08-28T03:23:37-04:00

I went through in 2017 and as the son of a SGM that was a ranger I was really expecting basic to be alot harder and the army to not be so soft. Dissappointed in the fact that kids getting offended over the simplists things actually matter. I wish I couldve joined sooner. But I wouldnt have chosen to be an mp

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2020 6:09 PM

2020-04-03T18:09:48-04:00

I will only speak to one of your assertions, cellphones. It makes no sense to limit a company of Trainees to using a limited number of pay phones for two minutes with a calling card that takes up 1.5 of those minutes while state of the art smart phones sit locked up in a closet. Let’s not forget the hours spent waiting in line to use said pay phone. Furthermore I’d rather face time my family than make a call. Some Soldiers don’t like their family and just want to watch YouTube for 20 minutes. If I was able to do those things on occasion in Afghanistan, why not BCT? If you don’t want smart phones in BCT, then don’t do the traditional Sunday phone call either. Anything else is just dumb and reflects an inability to accept the world for what it is instead of what you want it to be. May as well go back to telegrams, or maybe stone tablets. Of all the things to complain about, you chose phones...

Response by SMSgt John Padfield made May 6 at 2020 11:04 AM

2020-05-06T11:04:57-04:00

BMT, should be tough, no cell phones, no TV, No cokes and no smoking. MTI's in the cold war were mean and let you know right away when you screwed up or failed to meet expectations. Getting cussed out once a day or asked if you were of alternate persuasion was a norm. When they did away with boot polishing and gave them an Airmen Bill of rights card I knew the USAF was in trouble. We did not have rights as they all claim know days. You signed up as GI and the USAF gave you what you needed not what you wanted. You could have one desert in BMT but if you went by the SNAKE PIT with it was KP or for clipper duty and the worst part 10 minutes for a whole flight to eat it started from when the first man set down if everyone in your flight in the chow line took their lazy time you sometimes had one maybe two minutes to eat. Twice alone I had set down at the table of four and had eaten two bites when an E-6 or E-7 MTI came up and said you had enough to eat clear this area my flight is ready to eat, this was always with much cussing. If you tried argue they pulled a 341 and then you were in big trouble. The whole DOD needs to return to the cold war era BMT and Boot Camp and troops in war fighters and not privileged nation builders. Civilians have no right to tell the military how to train the troops!