Do you think the military should let an E-7 commission as an officer without a college degree?

1SG David Niles — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 17:00:07 -0500

So I put to you, Should and E-7 be allowed to transfer to the officer corp as an 0-1 if he gets command sponsorship without a college degree? There is some army's that allow this when they get to that level of senior NCO, what do you think?

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Dec 27 at 2014 12:43 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Sat, 27 Dec 2014 12:43:33 -0500

Based on my experiences in the military as a former enlisted officer, I've always felt that a soldier should first be a SNCO before becoming an officer.

If the only hurdle is post-secondary education, then by all means use that GI Bill and go for it.

Now the question of the necessity of the degree is often raised, especially since a newly-minted ROTC graduate really knows diddly about the Army. I have to say that I don't have an answer to that. I already had 2 college degrees when I enlisted.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 11:44 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 11:44:10 -0500

1SG, I like the idea. I think there needs to be a period of time where the SFC goes to a set of courses. Possibly including getting a bachelors degree. It has to be done because he's not going to get promoted to CPT without it. He's certainly not going to make it to MAJ without it. The courses officers go to are not only for the training, but for a mental shift. When you left a unit, you were a CPT, but you started as a LT and everyone knew it. Now, after a year of being around nothing but CPT's, you actually start acting like one. You show up at a new unit and no one knows anything about you but the fact that you have bars on. Same for MAJ and going to CGSC. Something would have to be done for the NCO's going into the officer world, especially to help them transition.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 3 at 2015 1:24 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 13:24:27 -0500

I don't think it would work with the AF, we require a BS/BA for commission (unlike the army) but beyond that, given the sheer number of SNCO's that have at least some kind of degree would make it seem odd to give that chance to the minority of SNCOs.

Senior NCO Tier
13.64% some college
52.749% have associate's degrees
25.482% have bachelor's degrees
8.035% have master's degrees
0.088% have professional degrees

Source: http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/airforcepersonneldemographics.asp

Air Force Personnel Center - Air Force Personnel Demographics

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 2:04 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 14:04:18 -0500

I would say YES, , a plan would have to be put in place to ensure the academic higher education is part of the program. Unless the program is limit their commissioning to no higher than 1LT.

If these Sr. NCO commissioned to officers are going to be competitive on a level playing field for higher promotions to CPT and above, the academics are going to be a must. We must remember that once these officers become Captains and eligible for promtion to Major and higher, they will have stepped out of Troop/Company/Battery unit level leadership and management. They will then be assigned to Battalion/Brigade and higher level assignements. Once in these higher headquarters staff positions the higher level a academic education becomes a must. Without out it, some may be able to talk the talk, but they would not be able to communicate the talk to writing....and as a staff officer you have to be able to put thoughts, plans, ideas to paper, oh yeah....and power point!

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2015 4:10 PM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 16:10:02 -0500

The Navy has yearly boards for Limited Duty Officers (LDOs) and Warrants. The requirement is eligibility for E-7 and at least 8 years of service (if I remember correctly) for LDO or attainment of E-7 and at least 12 years of service for Warrant. After advancing to O-3, and having attained a degree LDOs can lateral transfer to some Unrestricted Line (URL) designators, like Surface Warfare Officer (if they were a Surface LDO).

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Jan 4 at 2015 4:20 PM

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 16:20:25 -0500

E7 to officer is not currently possible and I would argue not recommended for the following reasons:
- College Degree. Currently a college degree is a requirement to become an officer. Used to be that NCOs to officers were allowed four years after becoming an officer to get a degree but this set up the individual for failure during GWOT in my opinion since the ability to obtain the degree was limited due to operational OPTEMPO.
- Broadening. Current strategic thought is that higher education and broadening are critical to creating senior leaders who can think deeply and strategically. An E7 to officer without a college degree would be missing a key element necessary to operate within the human domain and the humen dimension.
- Experience. An E7 is obviously very experienced but this is generally tactical experience only. Other skills, knowledge and attributes are required than just experience. The NCO to officer could be successful as a company grade but then what? They would be at a disadvantage compared to their peers for promotion and, in today's environment, continuation of service.
- Overall allowing this could be good for the Army but would definitely be unfair to the individual unless current guidance is changed. Need to think 3-4 moves ahead on a proposal like this rather than just one move ahead.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2015 4:55 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 16:55:12 -0500

I would like to say YES. I came in late so I'm older then any of the options the Army currently has to go officer or warrent officer. To have the option to become an officer once I make E7 would be a blessing. Unless there is some way of becoming an officer at my age (36)

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Jan 4 at 2015 7:59 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 19:59:14 -0500

The experience level of a SNCO would be huge. There are mechanisms for this to happen already, so without it being a "battlefield" commission, I would hesitate to upset the proverbial apple cart.

That being said, I would absolutely be interested in the ability to allow for MORE SNCOs to make the transition, as I see that as a great opportunity for both sides. I do not know how many positions each branch gets annually for prior service commissions, but, perhaps that could be changed and increased by taking away a number of college slots and folding them back to the enlisted corps.

If that is not a workable solution, then I guess that I would say no. If you want to chase the commission, get the degree and then I would love for you to earn the commission.

I have worked for some fantastic officers that were Mustangs.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 4 at 2015 9:08 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 21:08:17 -0500

O1 - no. But, one can commission based on selection as a warrant officer (at W2). Senior NCOs are often selected to become warrant officers based on their experience. A warrant officer role is different that an O-grade officer. Warrant officers are technical experts and leaders based on their experience. O-grades are critical leaders based on their depth and breadth of education and they way they are trained to think. This is not to say that many warrant officers are not as much or more educated that O-grades, but it their experience that the military relies upon (except the Air Force).

Response by LtCol Matthew Rajkovich made Jan 4 at 2015 11:45 PM

LtCol Matthew Rajkovich — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 23:45:30 -0500

This is a bit of an apples and oranges discussion. I think the laws of supply and demand help form the requirements we lay out for various grades. One can change the dates to an earlier time and you'll find general officers in their late 20's. So, the tiny details on what's require to qualify as an officer are comparatively moot WRT why these grades of O/SNCO/NCO even exist in the first place. Let's not forget the fundamental differences between the intended roles of commissioned officers and SNCOs/NCOs. One is not simply the natural continuation of the other. The military requires line managers who are tactical and technical experts at the performance of specific and often critical battlefield functions. (This doesn't matter whether it is a sustainment function like fueling, feeding, moving, and building or direct combat functions like shooting, killing, and blowing things up.) These functional experts (functional leaders) are your NCO and SNCO corps.

Commissioned officers, instead, serve a coordinating role like an orchestra conductor. They sit in a position where they can best see, hear, and be exposed to all these various technical issues. We pay him or her to then employ all these together in complementary and coordinated ways. Orchestra conductors don't and can't play all the instruments and if they do play one or two, then they likely don't do it as well as the guy who does it all the time. The "Zero" is not nor should they EVER be the single expert on a specific skill set, but they need to proficient enough to know the most effective ways to get these varied skill sets to function together and achieve an assigned mission. Mustangs make great officers and we should encourage enlisted personnel to serve as officers. They bring detailed insight into the performance of "the orchestra" because they've been there. Those officers without prior enlisted experience must work harder to obtain this level of insight.

As for today, I think the 1SG is identifying a process that may already exist in other services. Our Navy buddy above pointed out the LDO program as one example. Additionally, SNCOs whose conduct and performance warrants their service as officers are already anointed as "Warrant Officers". Although those Limited Duty Officers and Warrants officer are typically restricted to performance within a specific technical field and will not typically be found conducting an entire orchestra.

If an E-7 has demonstrated mastery of his skill area, that's great. If he or she wants to serve an officer, then he/she must first demonstrate skill in assimilating and communication a wide variety of subject areas that are outside of his/her lane. A college degree is the current metric we use for this. This could change (as was inferred above), but as for today it’s used as the check box because it is readily available, recognized, and fairly standard across the country. (Why reinvent the wheel?)

PS- it also helps us spell words like "corps" correctly. (Sorry 1SG, that was just a friendly jab. Feel free to return fire.)

Happy New Year

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2015 4:54 AM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 04:54:36 -0500

I would not be in favor of it, simply because we have a large number of junior enlisted folks in all branches now that have at least an associates degree and in many cases a 4-year degree.

Response by PFC Mike Mcdermott made Mar 28 at 2015 6:22 PM

PFC Mike Mcdermott — Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:22:34 -0400

Sure why not? He or she probably already has their act together

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2015 8:44 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Mar 2015 20:44:36 -0400

I am totally in favor, prior service is stuck grooming a majority of young LTs.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 28 at 2015 9:24 PM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 28 Mar 2015 21:24:35 -0400

No. If one wants to be an officer, then follow the routes already in place.

Response by BG David Fleming III made Mar 28 at 2015 11:20 PM

BG David Fleming III — Sat, 28 Mar 2015 23:20:34 -0400

I disagree with the idea. I think your setting them up for failure. They won't be competitive without a degree going before a promotion board in the future. Why would an experience E-7 want to a butter bar anyway?

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Mar 29 at 2015 12:13 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 00:13:38 -0400

Congress would either have to change the law or these E7s would get hemmed up with trying to do degree completion prior to the O3 board. You have to have a bachelors degree by law to be promoted to O3.
- there is also the matter of having the possibility to complete 20 years of active commissioned service prior to 55 years of age.
- degree completion derails many OCS grads as it takes you out of broadening and developmental experiences that are at a key point in company grade development that your peers would be getting.
- if the regulatory and statutory obstacles were out of the way, if you got the right SFC, I say Hooah, let him try.
- at a minimum you want to set the guy up to retire at least as a Captain.

Response by SGM Eric Lobsinger made Mar 29 at 2015 12:41 AM

SGM Eric Lobsinger — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 00:41:13 -0400

Interesting question. In my opinion, it depends on how close the SFC is to earning his/her bachelors degree. If close, perhaps. If not, then no. The bottom line is there are specific requirements in the commissioning process. If the NCO would care to apply to make the transition, then that NCO should meet the minimum qualifications.
Now, that being said, I suppose the real question is whether the SFC "SHOULD" make the transition? Assuming the SFC has 12-14 years TIS, realistically, what are the opportunities to advance beyond the rank of CPT versus being promoted to the rank of MSG/1SG, or even SGM/CSM? Another thing to keep in mind here, if the now "old" CPT does not get promoted, then the individual may max out at 20 years whereas a 26-year career for a MSG/1SG or 30-year-plus career as a SGM/CSM may prove more advantageous in the long run. This is a decision that should be made much earlier in a career. Quite a few NCOs have Bachelors degrees or higher. It seems that those desiring to make the transition should at least meet the minimum standards? One team, one fight. There is no right or wrong answer ... but there is always an Army standard!

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Mar 29 at 2015 2:04 AM

SFC Collin McMillion — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 02:04:37 -0400

I don't think I was smart enough to be an officer.....lol

Response by SGT Richard H. made Mar 29 at 2015 1:54 PM

SGT Richard H. — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:54:55 -0400

This question makes me think....what could someone possibly learn (about being a Military leader) in 4 years of college (degree non-specific) and OBC that you couldn't learn in 4 years Military and OBC?
Truthfully, I think this requirement could be lowered to E-5 or E-6 with a minimum TIS of 4 years.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 1:59 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:59:17 -0400

I would say yes for certain occupational skills namely finance, medical and legal where there are an absence of warrant officers. In lieu, a program such as the Navy's Limited Duty Officer program would work well. It gives those NCOs the opportunity to commission and have a larger scope in their respective field while being able to stay semi-technical as they would not be vying for command in order to progress. Not saying that those corps mentioned don't require command but the LDO program exclude these officers from obtaining command. Neither am I stating that this program should only be applied to these specific areas.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Mar 29 at 2015 2:05 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:05:47 -0400

In the Navy we do this; it's called the Limited Duty Officer program. If you're talking about unrestricted line, then it becomes a little more difficult.

I've met a lot of Senior Enlisted who were very inspirational leaders, but couldn't spell or speak their way out of a paper bag. Being an officer in line to command requires more than just good leadership. You must be well-read, literate and able to communicate properly in all media.

This is one of the reasons line officers traditionally required college degrees.

That being said, in WWII there were a number of people with some college but not a degree who were given commissions, and then went back to school to get their degree when discharged. It's almost a weekly occurrence to read about such an officer in the Sunday paper's obit section...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 2:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:32:56 -0400

In the Navy it's called a limited duty officer.

Response by 1SG David Niles made Mar 29 at 2015 2:59 PM

1SG David Niles — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:59:50 -0400

Many have asked "why?" Many have led successfully, the next step would be the progression to command.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 4:45 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:45:59 -0400

If to be commissioned as an officer when first joining you need a Bachelors degree or higher, why should one be allowed to be commissioned after being enlisted without a Bachelors degree? i believe they should at least be in the process of attaining a Bachelors or higher, if they don't already have one. Yes they have the experience, but like out in the civilian world, the experience is not going to help much if you don't have a degree to help back it up.

Response by PO2 David Hagwood made Mar 30 at 2015 9:04 PM

PO2 David Hagwood — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 21:04:20 -0400

As for my opinion for the Navy, I believe Chiefs should be able to commission without a college degree. A degree says nothing about your leadership ability and capacity to be able to perform the job of a Commissioned Officer. I'm in aviation and a joke we commonly say is that it takes a Bachelor's Degree to break a jet and a high school diploma to fix it. Those of us who are enlisted become technical experts and learn how to play administrative roles as we go up. We didn't need a degree to get to where we are and learn what we learned, and to become leaders through time experience and understanding; and a Chief shouldn't need to have a degree to get a commission.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2015 10:30 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 22:30:44 -0400

This sounds like a great subject for a podcast. Would anyone be interested in recording one? A small discussion panel of 4 or so would make a great program!

If E-7s have an easier path to 2LT or ENS, will there be a shortage of senior enlisted leaders? Who would train Junior Officers that are non-priors? If we have a shortage of senior enlisted does that mean lowering standards for promotions in order to fill the ranks? What does our military look like in the future? if some Officers have degrees and others don't will that cause issues in which those with BS/BA's feel superior to those without?

I don't think one person makes a better candidate than another solely based upon a 4 year degree. I will state with confidence that earning a 4 year degree does make one a better leader, thinker, professional, etc. If someone wants to argue this statement by claiming they earned a Bachelor's and didn't learn anything; they have done themselves a disservice. Going through the motions and knocking out tests may get you that piece of paper, but the idea behind an undergraduate degree is to open your mind and think. To think in new ways, to work with others, and to become a professional.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2015 10:58 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 22:58:42 -0400

I think this idea is a pretty good one. Why not give someone who has put their time in a couple of career paths to consider in order to put themselves in a better position. I notice that there seems to be a slight split with NCOs saying "yes" because its a good opportunity and they have put their time in and Officers saying "no" because of the lack of degree. Don't you think that someone who has put themselves in a position to make E-7 would make themselves as competitive as possible to continue climbing the commissioned ranks by obtaining a degree? I think that this idea may give some people the incentive to get a degree and learn new skills. I think the biggest thing is the command sponsorship to really keep the commissionings competitive and legitimate. Someone who has made E-7 has usually proven themselves, not saying there aren't bad E-7s out there, and should be given the chance to grow. I think they could be far more useful then someone fresh out of college and could actually help make thing more competitive. But from reading some responses it seems like some officers look down on enlisted soldiers and just assume they aren't educate, there are plenty of people who enlist with degrees for specific jobs. Its not a fair assessment to see yourselves as more capable and a better soldier just because you have a degree. Just my two cents, I'm currently looking into green to gold to get my masters.

Response by SFC Miguel Lopez made Apr 4 at 2015 10:35 PM

SFC Miguel Lopez — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 22:35:43 -0400

Last time I saw a similar case was in a movie, can't recall the name, but I believe is called a battlefield promotion. Nowadays such cases are non existent didn't learn of a single one during my time in active duty. However is a good question to pound on.

Response by 1SG Michael Hargis made May 13 at 2015 9:29 AM

1SG Michael Hargis — Wed, 13 May 2015 09:29:21 -0400

I know the following changes the parameters of the discussion but when I become dictator, I'd like to see the OP's SGT (SFC for MP's) have the ability to roll over to Warrant. Warrant Officers are supposed to be the experts in their field so when the SFC rolls over to WO1 he'll become the Company OP's officer (taking all duties like MWR officer, etc. from the PLT LDR's). As that CO CDR and 1SG move up and on they follow each other. Now the CO CDR is a BN CDR, the 1SG is a CSM, and the WO1 is a CW3 as the S3. The Army can alleviate a MAJ position and no one can argue with the 3 since this CW3 has been with the BC for so long he is the expert on how the BC wants his operation ran. Retirements, people not getting promoted,etc. obviously doesn't make this the perfect model, but I'd like to see more Warrant opportunities than Officer opportunities.

Response by MSG Carl Wells made Nov 24 at 2015 8:36 AM

MSG Carl Wells — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:36:35 -0500

I finished a Master's before retiring. Between the Marines and Army with a 18 month break (FT college) in between; it took sixteen years to get my BA from HS graduation. If I had not been able to get into DIA PGIP, finishing a MA would of been a lot more difficult. Senior NCO's would need a 'break'; force feed a Bachelors program, some thing useful like History, Management, not Basket-weaving or Music Theory. Also consider that in this process the NCO is probably married with children. The adjustment to college could be more difficult that a combat tour for those involved. There is not point in commissioning an officer that will not be competitive with their peers for promotion. I had the privilege to serve with the junior support guy from Operation Ivory Coast. When you see a 2LT inprocess your Bn 2 with four rows of ribbons... 'You've been in the Army more than a year Sir?" The late Frank Clousen was an inspirational officer and man. While sadly he retired only as a Major; Ranger Frank, (what the troops called him in the 82nd) lead from the front and only minimally micro'd his NCO's. Senior NCO's that become officers will always do that.... by that time it's part of you. The challenge is to know that and restrain yourself.

Response by LTC Ian Murdoch made Jun 21 at 2016 12:47 PM

LTC Ian Murdoch — Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:47:04 -0400

No. Commissioning an NCO with limited time remaining before his/her mandatory retirement date would preclude someone else from being commissioned, and reduce the competitiveness of selection for higher grades. In the past, when Soldiers could be commissioned through OCS without having completed a baccalaureate degree, they would have to later take time out from the operational force to go finish their degrees. This created a problem for the Army in the mid-late 2000's when there was a critical need for mid grade officers. This is why the policy was changed.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jun 22 at 2016 12:13 AM

CPT Pedro Meza — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 00:13:02 -0400

A degree only demonstrates that you have a degree in something, while an SFC has proven himself or herself as leader of soldiers, which to this commissioned CPT with a degree out weights my degree. Which bring me to an interesting point when I was a 2LT, the SFC would tell me Sir, why don;t you leave and go play golf and come back at 1600 and take credit like all 2LT, I always responded I prior service, and was an NCO before I was an officer, so mind if I help you?

Response by COL John Hudson made Jun 22 at 2016 8:11 AM

COL John Hudson — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:11:35 -0400

David, "circumstances" will always point out an exception to virtually every 'rule' out there. During the Vietnam conflict, I did some pretty stupid things in combat and was noticed by men of good intent (while their common sense might be in question) and I earned a field commission from CW2 to 1Lt (of Infantry). Due to the current socio/political situation in America at that time, Army personnel retention was critical and a number of off-beat programs were in place. While in basic Infantry Officer training at Ft. Benning (after my 2nd 'Nam tour), I was placed with a group of fresh 2Lts right out of college ROTC. Incredibly, one of our group was a newly minted Captain, who had been given a direct commission from E-7 to that rank!!!! How could that possibly have happened, you might ask? Well, we all gathered around to hear his amazing story. He was at the end of his career, a good and faithful soldier with high EERs. He actually wrote to Dept. of the Army and requested that in his last year of service, would they be kind and let him hold Officer rank to see how the other half lived (so to speak) then retire as an E-7. And by golly, they did! Now, I'm certain a lot of career factors went into that decision, but nonetheless, there he was. He was small, wiry, personable, incredibly knowledgeable and willing to help all those young faces...so he immediately earned the title, "Pappy." I'm certain there are many such stories to be had out there, so anyone with similar experiences can leap in to verify the 'strange-ness' of life's circumstances.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jun 22 at 2016 9:39 AM

SrA Edward Vong — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:39:39 -0400

The only way I can see an easier path from Enlisted to Officer is if there are shortages of officers as seen during the events of World War II. Otherwise no.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 22 at 2016 10:03 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:03:08 -0400

I'd actually argue we need more "formal education" in our Senior Enlisted Ranks.

There are some things that cannot be learned in a Tactical or Operational environment. Experience is GREAT, but it needs to be balanced with Education, and vice-versa.

One of the big thing College does is "teaches people how to learn" within a formal setting, and quite a lot of critical thinking and research skills. That's not a focus we give in the lower to mid enlisted ranks. We give a VERY narrow focus to a specialized area, rather than the broad generalist approach which is needed for our Officer Corps. As others have mentioned, there are LDOs and WOs, but those are SMEs within their respective fields, and outside the "line officer" realm.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Dec 18 at 2016 8:09 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 20:09:57 -0500

I still feel the degree should always be a requirement. There certainly are enlisted people that do have a BS/BA degree or above, I do. The experience certainly is a plus and make make an even better candidate for a Commission although as Officers remain and gain experience of course that adds quite a bit of background also to their own credentials. The bottom line is having things in perspective in addition to meeting the criteria of qualifications that are required to properly advance in Your career.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2016 2:08 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 14:08:48 -0500

No. Standards are standards. If an E-7 wants to become a commissioned officer then he/she needs to put in the work like the rest of us. Part of this is having the focus to create a degree plan and follow it until completion

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2017 6:48 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Jan 2017 18:48:13 -0500

NO WAY!

1) What self-respecting SFC wants to be the oldest Butterbar in the entire Army?
2)The skill sets are different. I'm not saying the average SFC isn't head and shoulders in leadership than the average 2nd Louie, but the SFC is (or should be) a master of his MOS. Officers are generalist, managers, the necessary interface between command and getting things done.
3) There are procedures for direct commission as a Mustang, or going Warrant, or whatever. These ought to be sufficient for those who want to turn in their stripes.

On the other hand, I agree with those who think officers should be enlisted first. 2 years as a private before commissioning would do a lot of them a world of good.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Jan 3 at 2017 7:36 AM

GySgt Charles O'Connell — Tue, 03 Jan 2017 07:36:54 -0500

Me personally, As a Senior SNCO why would I want give that up to be a junior officer.

Response by SFC Roger Troxell made Jan 6 at 2017 6:28 PM

SFC Roger Troxell — Fri, 06 Jan 2017 18:28:07 -0500

My opinion yes. A SFC has proved dedication, and commement. Attended at least three leadership courses, with one being advance in his/her MOS. Considered a SME in that field.i believe this should be permitted upon successful completion as a platoon sergeant as part of the criteria. As far as continuing education, it should be part of the overall plan to continue their education over a period of time before consideration to advancement to 0-3.

Response by 1SG Mark Wilson made Jan 17 at 2017 1:33 PM

1SG Mark Wilson — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:33:28 -0500

Keep it like it is. Compete for OCS if you want to and follow the regulations pertaining to civilian education.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2017 12:40 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Jan 2017 00:40:33 -0500

Bring back 90 credit OCS eligiblity and degree completion program. We dont necessarily need the degree, cause did anyone really learn aything at OCS? However, the drive to complete a requirement to accomplish a goal against competing requirements needs to be there.

Response by MAJ Richard Cheek made Aug 24 at 2017 6:27 PM

MAJ Richard Cheek — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:27:09 -0400

Well they let me but before I could make major I had to get that degree. Full time active army and college at night and weekends is tough doing both well is tougher.

Response by MAJ Richard Cheek made Aug 24 at 2017 6:35 PM

MAJ Richard Cheek — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:35:09 -0400

As an E7 I was rated as doing the job of a major. I can show you the SEER. I received a direct commission to 1st Lt based on that. i found out the big difference between me and the west pointers at the infantry officer advance course when I sat with the other 1LTs. They 5 percenters I found them to be a bit taken aback when they found out I was mustang. By the way I was honor grad.

Response by SPC Les Darbison made Aug 24 at 2017 6:38 PM

SPC Les Darbison — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:38:55 -0400

Anyone remember Audie Murphy Hell yes if you have a track record of doing the right thing and making sound decisions under stress.

Response by SGT Jim Arnold made Aug 24 at 2017 6:42 PM

SGT Jim Arnold — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 18:42:34 -0400

from what I've known most SNCO's have more than a BA degree some have master's degrees even a few have doctorate degrees

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Aug 25 at 2017 8:42 AM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Fri, 25 Aug 2017 08:42:02 -0400

I'm SFC/E7 without a college degree and I went to college and earned 180 college credits and went to all my NCOES and even 1SG course, I currently work for DON/DOD with out a degree and It took me awhile to get to where I am, but I was deployed and when and where I was deployed I did not have time to do college class and did not earn a BSM for doing college classes and getting my degree in combat zone. Just wanted to but that out there. There are some really Bad asses SFC/E-7 out there with all the schools/NCOES that don't have a degree but do have college credit because now NCOES and some courses are giving college credits in the military. I think I your trying to be and Officer to go to OCS you should be given the chance most of them have combat background and half of the officers are right out of college with no skill. A SFC has experience and knowledge to be and officer and if I was in combat and I knew this guy used to be enlisted I would defiantly follow him into battle then some fresh guy from the block.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 3:36 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 15:36:55 -0400

... updated my post

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 12 at 2018 9:00 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 12 May 2018 21:00:49 -0400

Currents and past regs are pretty specific- no degree, no commission- hell we sent Korean and Vietnam NCO's with battlefield commissions to college to get their degrees, so they could be retained in the service.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2018 2:51 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Jun 2018 14:51:40 -0400

Interesting question. I was an SFC with 17 years of enlisted service and at first I believed my transition would be seamless and easy. I was mistaken, while I been to nearly every NCOPDS available I found that the thought process and duties were polar opposites. Many of the fine leaders in this discussion have pointed out the issues with a Senior NCO direct commissioning without a college degree. You see, college is designed to broaden your mind, not simply to memorize materials but to LEARN how to think. One of the biggest challenges I had when I first transitioned was to understand that the Army is not simply black and white, its not always the regulation that gives you the answer you need. I had to be creative and learn when I need to pursue an exception to an issue not just the go with the book answer. I would also ask you to consider this; Who validates you as an NCO? Another NCO? What validation process do we have to say that the way that NCO was developed is right? Please don't say NCOPDS. Now consider a college education, every school is accredited by a higher institution and requires validation every few years. What does this mean? It mean that if an officer has a business degree from Kansas State and another officer has a business degree from Washington State, we an expect that they have learned the same materials and with the same standard. They may not perform the same, but that is to be expected. Title 10 demands that all military officers possess a 4-year degree from an accredited college. I guess that's the point I'm really trying to make. NCOs are promoted by the Army, officers are appointed by the President which brings in legal ramification. So there must be a difference. I hope my perspective helps.

Response by SSgt Ron Lindsey made Aug 30 at 2018 10:48 AM

SSgt Ron Lindsey — Thu, 30 Aug 2018 10:48:54 -0400

As long as the E7 is competent and had good Pro&Con record he should be allowed to be promoted in the MOS field that he is trained. When I was active, there were 7 support Marines for every Combat Marine, and during the build up
for Vietnam , many technical Warrant
Officers and O-1s were promoted for Support positions.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 10:36 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 10:36:51 -0500

Heck, I have a bachelor's degree with a 3.87 GPA and I am in grad school with a 4.0 but for some reason, I cannot commission because I'm too old. Instead the Army wants the ROTC cadet over proven proficiency and experience. It does not make much sense from an organizational "talent management" aspect, right?

Anyway, I think it's important to prove your ability to think critically. One way to determine critical thinking proficiency is through a college education. Believe it or not, you can determine quite a bit between someone who barely skates by with completing a degree with a 2.5 GPA and someone who is rocking a 4.0 GPA.

Response by SPC Greg Barnett made Nov 15 at 2018 4:10 PM

SPC Greg Barnett — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 16:10:09 -0500

All I know is in my experience I loved the officers that were ncos first before they commissioned. They know what it's like to be an e1

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 5:06 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:06:42 -0500

A decent number of NCOs on the Guard/Reserve side already have their BAs or even MAs. As a reference, how many field commissions in WWII made it to field grade rank? And how did they do?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 5:23 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:23:38 -0500

Ummm like Audie Murphy who droped out of school in fifth grade! You either have it or you dont, collage doesnt make you smarter.

Response by SFC David Xanten made Nov 15 at 2018 10:26 PM

SFC David Xanten — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 22:26:55 -0500

Why not. If an E7 were to qualify to become an Officer, he already has the leadership experience and I for one thinks all they would need is the college and there are programs to accomplish that.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Nov 15 at 2018 10:47 PM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 22:47:04 -0500

Although not seen often these days, the Army and Marine Corps can do it now through the Meritorious Commissioning Program according to Title 10 cited in this discussion. The individual must be recommended by his Command, meet age criteria, and recognize that they are limited to O-3 by law, unless they get the degree. why don't you see it? 1. Why should it be a general opportunity since it is a meritorious program? 2. There are adequate numbers of college graduates who desire a commission and are not career limited by title 10.

But even if selected, the individual must go to OCS and receives a reserve commission. One officer in this string exclaimed what did any of us learn at OCS? As an individual who underwent both enlisted basic and OCS, I can certify that there is a huge difference in emphasis and objective that carries through the training regimens for officer or enlisted. The difference is sometimes vague, but officers work toward a different goal professionally than SNCOs, and the school reflect the difference.

During VN, there were Marine SNCOs who were appointed as officers by contract, with the understanding they would be reverted to the grade a contemporary achieved once the shortage of officers due to the war no longer existed. The program was referred to as a temporary, temporary officers program. Most served admirably, but one friend reverted from a Major (specifically allowed by the program) C-130 and helicopter pilot, to a MSgt 130 crewman as the war quieted and there was no need for them. They served the need of the Corps and, if they retired from their enlisted rank, they retired as enlisted until the 30th anniversary of their enlistment. I always heard the program existed to preclude a RIF of officers who had not reached retirement by the end of the war. So there is some merit to the argument that SNCOs can fill the officer role, but, again, numbers don't require it.

Why the degree requirement? Because sometime in the 20th century, congress or someone, decided a degree was a requirement. Get used to it. Read civilian job advertisements. The executive positions (that's what officers are) overwhelmingly require a degree with a very few allowing experience in place of a degree.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2018 12:25 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 00:25:13 -0500

Honestly it should be required that unless you go to west point or other military academy, you must be enlisted for their 1st full contract before being allowed to be an officer. Plus the college degree requirement be removed. Having gone to school for a degree doesn't make you a better leader. Known too many officer junior & senior officers make more mistakes & couldn't lead. Seen SPC better at leading troops than some officers or ncos for that matter.
Tbere has alwsy been young men who become officers & learn from the experience below & above. But in wars previous before the requirement of college degrees post WW2, Ncos were promoted to officers if they tried, earned the respect of both above & below, & if they showed the ability to lead troops with effectively & in some cases if they were already doing the job because the officer before them had died.
Now an officer should have some education, yes. But the education for military ops, leading, tactican, logistics, etc. Not a college degree of fine arts, math, language. Another thing is that an officer who is in certain field, such as linguistics, then language studies will work out. Engineering degrees for designers or building. Being a medical doctor before becoming a military doctor should be the only degree required prior to commissioning.
Now as for the question should an E7 or above go to become an officer. In today's military, it's kind of pointless. That nco has already spent at least 15 years in the service & if they get out at 20 years then they might only be a Cpt at best. My opinion.

Response by MAJ David Wallace made Nov 16 at 2018 6:11 AM

MAJ David Wallace — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 06:11:26 -0500

Good question and topic! As our military continues its worldwide battle against those forces that would destroy our way of life, we should look at every option for force and leadership generation, especially for company grade officers that do the up close and personal engagement. I have seen many Soldiers of all grades that should never have been in the military. I have seen many more that held such untapped potential that was never fully realized. The older I get, the more I see the need for great communicators, planners, and leaders 8n every field of endeavor. We should not continue to limit our horizons by relying on college-degreed Soldiers exclusively. Look to that bright, honest man or woman in the trench that has the fire in their belly and the look that says "I got this! Let me do it!!" If the chain of command supports them, get them into the officer corps. Just my thought, what say you?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2018 8:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:12:10 -0500

Does having a college degree make you a better at your job or does experience make you better at your job?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 16 at 2018 9:55 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 09:55:00 -0500

People get promoted quickly in bad wars.

Response by SGT Omar Smith made Nov 16 at 2018 9:55 AM

SGT Omar Smith — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 09:55:54 -0500

That's why you have warrant officers

Response by PO2 Robert Aitchison made Nov 16 at 2018 11:22 AM

PO2 Robert Aitchison — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:22:00 -0500

Absolutely, that E-7 has probably learned more during his or her career that will benefit their role as an officer than they could ever learn in college.

Response by SPC David S. made Nov 16 at 2018 12:55 PM

SPC David S. — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:55:15 -0500

Good question,

Regardless of a yes or no response I feel having a degree at some point in time would be required for a commissioned office in order to get past the O3 rank - seems without it one one would get passed rather quickly and find themselves being forced out.

I do agree however that being able to lead is not guaranteed via a college education. However I feel a good leader would always been looking at self and pursuing areas that are deficient. Having an solid education I feel would be on any good leaders checklist. As well some of the officer jobs require an in depth technical understanding which is more or less vetted via an accredited college program.

I think one of more obvious reasons to say yes is the need for the military to maintain similar requirements that state and or federal have deemed necessary for licensing. An example is like how a state requires a CPA to have a degree in finance or an MBA in order to even take the test to get licensed. Seems the civilian world has put in controls to maintain a standard in many profession - a degree being one of them. Seems reasonable the military would demand the same.

As such I think a lot depends on where are what the newly commission officer would be doing. Quartermaster maybe, physicist and nuclear engineer not so much.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Nov 16 at 2018 1:56 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 13:56:08 -0500

In the Marine Corps we call this the WO program.

Response by MSgt Dollar Bill Rutledge made Nov 16 at 2018 2:31 PM

MSgt Dollar Bill Rutledge — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 14:31:50 -0500

We had a maintenance officers once. He majored in modern dance or some crap like that. Useless as tits on a bore hog. Yeah that degree was real handy in the Air Force.

Response by CMSgt Randy Beck made Nov 16 at 2018 2:41 PM

CMSgt Randy Beck — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 14:41:48 -0500

Isn't this what the Warrant Officer program is for? I wish it existed when I was enlisted (the AF traded theirs away for the E8/E9 ranks years before) because that is where I would have liked to have been. I only had an associates when I joined so I had no choice at that time. I like that the Army and Marine Corps has kept theirs. I believe this is where the hypothetical SNCO should be allowed to "commission".

Response by PO2 Nick Burke made Nov 16 at 2018 3:09 PM

PO2 Nick Burke — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 15:09:41 -0500

What does a college degree in liberal arts or some other field do?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2018 5:01 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 17:01:45 -0500

The closest I ever got to almost understanding what officers deal with was going through a MCPP course (Marine Corps Planning Process) If you want me to war game, i'll war game but to be able to think of almost any possibility and how to plan, prepare and train your men and women for these event; I say no thank you. It can make my brain with its AS in electronics engineering hurt. I am a SNCO give me my mission and ROE and we will get it done. Gentlemen thank you for your planning so I can focus on mission accomplishment and troop welfare.

Post may include improper grammar but that is what my OIC will review and kick my paperwork back for.

Response by CPT Keith Mccluskey made Nov 17 at 2018 6:45 AM

CPT Keith Mccluskey — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 06:45:37 -0500

It used to be that you could commission, then complete the degree within a certain timeframe. Had to have 90 credits to commission.

Response by CCMSgt Eugene Scavetta made Nov 17 at 2018 11:35 PM

CCMSgt Eugene Scavetta — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 23:35:42 -0500

As a retired CCMSGT I say the training and responsibilities would qualify me as an officer. Upon retirement, within 2 weeks I was hired by the Clark County School District (CCSD) In 6 months I was advanced to co-ordinator (Administration position). Left CCSD to work at Ceasers Palace as contractor administrator. Six months later I was offered a Directors position back at CCSD. I department consisted of new construction, rehab, moderation, telecommunications, hazardous materials including a certified lab. A full construction section for in-house construction.Plus other minor activities. Although I did not have an engineering degree we were very successful. Kept below budget and completed all our projects.
Not to brag but I think that in the AF that position would be filled by an officer, in many cases a Major.
I was very proud to be a CMSGT but being selected as a Senior Enlisted Advisor just elevated my confidence. As a CCMSGT was beyond my expectations. I am very grateful for my career in the AF for it enabled me to retire young with a nice pension. Now it's golf and cruising. Living on a golf course in a fully paid for house and cars. I owe it all to the United States Air Force and will never forget it. Joined at 17 retired at 25 years.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2018 8:21 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 08:21:24 -0500

Join the Navy , we have Programs that this is possible.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2018 9:33 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:33:09 -0500

Yes

Response by SGT Rick Myers made Nov 18 at 2018 11:01 AM

SGT Rick Myers — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:01:38 -0500

My opinion is it’d have to be O2 or O3 to give up a lucrative senior enlisted standing. I mean by then top NCO’s are running things anyway. It just becomes more of a paper pushing game with a major pay increase to go and become an Officer. Just my peace..

Response by LTC Jack Regan made Nov 23 at 2018 11:48 PM

LTC Jack Regan — Fri, 23 Nov 2018 23:48:48 -0500

First off I'd like to see the explanation for a college degree as a requirement for anything except what the degree is in relation to. My B.S. got me into OCS and I am thankful for that, but in 23 years of field artillery I cannot recall using my knowledge of Biology once for fire support.

Response by Capt Bob Soldner made Nov 25 at 2018 9:03 AM

Capt Bob Soldner — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 09:03:19 -0500

A common practice during times of conflict in the past. WW II, Korea, Vietnam stand out to me. In 1966, with only a GED, I went from GySgt to 2nd Lt. Retired in 1972. It can and has been done.

Response by MAJ Bruce Davie made Nov 25 at 2018 1:37 PM

MAJ Bruce Davie — Sun, 25 Nov 2018 13:37:15 -0500

Absolutely NOT! They must transition from executing orders to planning. I got it when a mentor O4 grabbed me by the chest, took me off my feet & said, “LT, You are an officer now! The NCO’s run it & you stay out of their way. You plan & check & listen to them.”

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2018 7:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Nov 2018 19:23:12 -0500

Well then, you should allow E6's with a Bachelor's or Master's degree a commission. Unfortunately, not all E7s have brains enough to pour piss from a boot even if the instructions are on the heel. There's already a lack of leadership skills and to give someone a participation trophy merely because they've been around long enough to fall into an E7 promotion is not the brightest of ideas.

Response by MAJ John Douglas made Dec 4 at 2018 1:13 PM

MAJ John Douglas — Tue, 04 Dec 2018 13:13:52 -0500

No.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Dec 8 at 2018 12:20 AM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Sat, 08 Dec 2018 00:20:08 -0500

This actually happens routinely in the Navy, Marines and CG. In the navy they tend to be LDOs, that is limited duty officers. They are employed in situations where it is desirable to have an officer with strong, specific technical knowledge and seasoned leadership. In the Navy they can advance to O-6, and in the Marines O-5. Not sure there is a limit in the CG, they do not have LDOs, and I seem to remember there was one who reached O-7.

Response by LT Louis McKellar made Dec 10 at 2018 9:53 AM

LT Louis McKellar — Mon, 10 Dec 2018 09:53:42 -0500

The Navy promotes E7 and up to CWO2. It has the limited duty officer program for E6 and above to be promoted to O1. Both programs do not require college degrees.

Response by Amn Dennis Demers made Dec 12 at 2018 1:23 AM

Amn Dennis Demers — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 01:23:57 -0500

I would have no problem following an E-7 who went to officer corp into battle. If he has proven himself to be battle tested already by his past history. Some NCO's I have met would make better officers with or without a college education.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Dec 13 at 2018 8:13 PM

CPT Larry Hudson — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:13:00 -0500

Only if qualified and meets officer standards. Know that in RIF spells, officers were offered E-7 reductions in rank if they elected to stay in service so why not the reverse of that.

Response by SPC Donn Sinclair made Dec 19 at 2018 6:03 AM

SPC Donn Sinclair — Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:03:04 -0500

Why not? No doubt like the rest of you, I encountered individuals while I was in, and in my civilian occupation that had their walls papered with sheepskins, many of whom couldn't find their backsides with both hands and a GPS. If one has the talent and a flair for leadership, rock on.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2018 10:25 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 22:25:11 -0500

They do. It's called a Limited Duty Officer. You need to make the board for the Chief's board when you're a First Class Petty Officer, and then you can apply for an LDO commission.

Response by SSG Harry Herres made Dec 23 at 2018 10:59 PM

SSG Harry Herres — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 22:59:21 -0500

Sorry gang, take your college degree and put it away. Book work means nothing if you can not put it to real life work. I have worked with know it all's and book worms. Those that know how to deal with right now situation, out do those that have to evaluate what is presented. College yes but been there done that means more. I have paid the price too many times from i have the knowlage not the way it is
S

Response by Maj Eric Gumz made Dec 31 at 2018 7:11 AM

Maj Eric Gumz — Mon, 31 Dec 2018 07:11:15 -0500

There are plenty of programs for enlisted to commission, as well as opportunities to become Warrant Officers and that path can make you a Limited Duty Capt, Maj, and even LtCol. I think the military's biggest issue is that our promotion system is seniority based instead of merit based. I also think subordinates should have a say in fitness reports.

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Jan 3 at 2019 11:22 AM

CPL Sheila Lewis — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 11:22:05 -0500

A college degree is stillnecessary.

Response by Sgt Clayton Brannon made Jan 3 at 2019 2:02 PM

Sgt Clayton Brannon — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 14:02:12 -0500

Yes but they should have to pass certain test for competency.

Response by SGM Bill Johnson made Jan 3 at 2019 4:49 PM

SGM Bill Johnson — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 16:49:41 -0500

I was an exchange Soldier to the Royal Netherlands Army for three years and got to see how other countries do things. In the Dutch Army, once a Soldier attains their equivalent of E-9 they will do two or three assignments working their way up from Company Sergeant Major (Companie Sergeant Majoor) up through what ever the highest level (usually brigade) that their Branch has available. Then they are commissioned as a 2LT, 1LT, or CPT, depending on what their branch and background is. These are officer positions in highly specific fields such as Officer Instructor, Staff Officer, etc. Generally they are not what we would consider line officers. It works very well for them. The unit gets a very highly trained, very experienced junior officer to run the show. In reality, they are like commissioned Warrant Officers in function but some of them do command. I really don't think the average SFC without an advanced education is really equipped to become a commissioned officer without additional schooling. No one wants to admit it but the reality is that the U.S. Army trains Enlisted Soldiers and NCO while it educates Officers. There will be a steep education curve for a SFC I think.

Response by PO2 Ken Derickson made Jan 3 at 2019 6:43 PM

PO2 Ken Derickson — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 18:43:51 -0500

Why not? A degree doesn't guarantee anything and "on-the-job" training is often more valuable than a bunch of college courses, especially now days when we rarely fight conventional wars and are more focused on special ops, PSYOPs, drones, etc. I say this having three degrees myself. Also, just because someone is an officer does not guarantee that they are competent on the battlefield or under fire. I have worked with some really great officers and some real duds!!

Response by Pvt Gorthaur Eternus made Jan 4 at 2019 3:20 PM

Pvt Gorthaur Eternus — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 15:20:23 -0500

Absolutely NOT! Not that I don't think enlisted people aren't capable, but because there is already a WARRANT officer program to allow enlisted specialists to become officers in their field.

Response by SSG Ed Grenke made Jan 5 at 2019 1:48 AM

SSG Ed Grenke — Sat, 05 Jan 2019 01:48:44 -0500

First during war many Senior NCOs earned a wartime commissioned! I would compare Military ACE Transcript and duty function of his military operation skill and see if has earned enough education to begin as a 1st or 2nd Lieutenant. It would be up to the E-7 commissioned to complete a Bachelor of Science in Leadership and Military Science, but to out right be commissioned during peacetime absolutely not!

Response by SP5 Michael Chambers made Jan 5 at 2019 9:40 AM

SP5 Michael Chambers — Sat, 05 Jan 2019 09:40:23 -0500

Yes, senior non-commissioned officers should be slotted directly into commissioned officers slots. This would be a huge benefit to the individual, the Army, and to the men who would be serving under them.

It allows for advancement, pay, and educational opportunities for the senior NCO. And quite frankly at that point they will have earned it.

It benefits the Army by putting experienced people in critical front line slots that directly affect our war fighting ability. Regardless of all the BS being thrown around by the commissioned officer Corp there are some Stark realities. Lt's are put in a position of incredible responsibility and are absolutely ignorant at best. At worst they put the lives of those under them at risk. That is why most platoons will at some point consider shooting the Lt first, not the enemy. What's more these senior NCO's would be approaching retirement by the time they were competing for senior officer positions, so the lack of a bachelor's would be a non issue for them.

As for the men....they would benefit greatly from.this.Having an idiot in charge is grossly detrimental to moral. It's important to reinforce the idea that we value your time, service, technical expertise, and ability to actually do the job. Every enlisted man has seen first hand how a bachelor's degree has absolutely not prepared Lt's for war much less the military. And the double standard that it creates is corrosive to all ranks.

So Yes, open up these positions to our very best. It can only help.

Response by LCDR Scott Stroman made Jan 5 at 2019 11:22 AM

LCDR Scott Stroman — Sat, 05 Jan 2019 11:22:00 -0500

The Navy advances "subject matter experts" from enlisted to warrant officer or Limited Duty Officer, generally with great results. Commissioning as an Unrestricted Line Officer almost always requires at least a bachelor's degree. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2019 6:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Jan 2019 18:59:51 -0500

Any E-7 that is worthy of commissioning already has a bachelors degree. It took me nine years of part time online school (slowed by three deployments) but I earned mine at E-6. While some armies may allow a direct commission without a degree (I think Iraq and Afghanistan are some examples), those armies are laughably inferior to ours.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 5 at 2019 9:42 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 05 Jan 2019 21:42:16 -0500

No!

Response by CW2 Jalistair B made Jan 6 at 2019 12:50 AM

CW2 Jalistair B — Sun, 06 Jan 2019 00:50:09 -0500

"There is some army's that allow this when they get to that level of senior NCO, what do you think?"

This is incorrect grammar, it should read "There ARE some ARMIES that allow this." In short we have standards. A college degree is part of that standard. I see no reason to lower our standards just because someone wants a different rank or higher pay. I am not a grammar fanatic but I pointed out your sentence as an example of lower standards. With all the resources available to our soldiers today there is no reason why an E-7 should not be able to take the required classes needed to get his degree. With the vast number of NCO's out there with a bachelors and even masters, asking for a simple college degree to be an officer is a standard we should not drop.

Response by LT Ted Painter made Jan 6 at 2019 9:59 AM

LT Ted Painter — Sun, 06 Jan 2019 09:59:58 -0500

The Navy has a program whereby an E-6 (who has passed the advancement exam for E-7) and above can apply for a commission as an O-1E for duty assignments within his (or her) specialty. It is called the Limited Duty Officer program. Alternatively application can be made for a commission as a CWO-2. Competition for these programs is fierce. On April 4, 1978 I went to work as an E-7 and went home that afternoon as an O-1E. Within my speciality, Surface Ordnance, there were four primary selectees. I was not one of the four. I was an alternate, and one of the primaries elected not to become an officer.
No college degree required.

Response by SPC James Reese made Jan 6 at 2019 10:17 AM

SPC James Reese — Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:17:10 -0500

I think it’s a good idea, but they should be required to obtain an associate degree at least. The best officers I knew in the Army came from the enlisted side. They had a better understanding of their soldiers and what is required to complete a mission. Most officers that go straight in from college had a recognizable feeling of superiority. I would like to see an enlistment period be a requirement for all officers as well.

Response by CPT Ray Gilmore made Jan 6 at 2019 11:57 AM

CPT Ray Gilmore — Sun, 06 Jan 2019 11:57:33 -0500

Dependent upon the branch; and only if the E7, is on a path towards a degree....

I don't care about the BS or BA.... as much as I do about that E7's ability to obtain an advanced degree, (MBA/MPA) in order to be an effective planner, beyond the Rank of O2.

BUT, without that undergrad degree, that NCO won't make Captain.... and if they are a lifetime O2, that is never going to leave the line, or be more than an "Assistant Staff Officer".....

Then, why did this NCO become an "O"?

Without the ability to move up, the NCO, now an "O", will only block new "O's" from professional development opportunities.

Move up, or move out.

In an era, when my NCO's had equivalent degrees as me (and that was 10-years ago); I think that it would be foolish for that E7 to not have, at least an Associate Degree, by that rank; which would allow them to do degree completion, following their platoon leader time (instead of company XO, or BN staff.)

Response by 1SG James Matthews made Jan 7 at 2019 10:52 AM

1SG James Matthews — Mon, 07 Jan 2019 10:52:14 -0500

An E-7 will usually have anywhere from 5 to 9 years in service. If during that time he has developed enough military knowledge of his troops and has common sense he is ahead of the game in most cases concerning new to mid ranked officers I served with.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2019 8:09 PM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:09:17 -0500

If you look at the Limited Duty Officer (LDO) program in the Navy - this could be very beneficial for the Army...
You get a junior officer who is seasoned in leadership and in a technical job that would probably be filled by another officer 1 or 2 ranks higher.

Response by Sgt Donald Daugherty made Jan 20 at 2019 10:23 AM

Sgt Donald Daugherty — Sun, 20 Jan 2019 10:23:34 -0500

An E-7 does not mean shit except that someone has put in their time to become one. A real college degree shows the individual applied themselves academically and achieved something 80% of people do not do.
If you start handing out commissions you will undermine the integrity of the military.
Most of the people i worked with were a dumb as rocks and only knew what they learned from watching others during their enlistments. Unless it was sports, an intelligent conversation could not be had because they lacked the common knowledge and understanding of the world and how things worked. I.E., economics, history, English language, literature, art, music, accounting, etc.

I especially deplore the ARMY members that cheat and do on-line A.A. degrees and become Warrant officers. They never even took the classes! Many pay siblings and friends to take them and they lie their way up the chain of rank and responsibility.

Response by CPO Demetrio Nicolo made Jan 22 at 2019 2:56 AM

CPO Demetrio Nicolo — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 02:56:49 -0500

I believe that great things can be accomplished by someone without a college degree. I believe that a college degree doesn't guarantee someone to be smart or have knowledge enough to perform certain jobs or have skill sets to manage or lead people.
I know a lot of veterans who would have made great officers but they weren't mentored properly so the military missed out on some fantastic leaders.
Keep that track to success open so we can get the best qualified people to lead our service men and women.

Response by SGM Frank Marsh made Jan 22 at 2019 8:36 PM

SGM Frank Marsh — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 20:36:52 -0500

OCS...enlisted to officer...no degree

Response by SSG Norbert Johnson made Jan 24 at 2019 4:25 PM

SSG Norbert Johnson — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 16:25:11 -0500

If all things were equal (NOT) we would look to the current schedule of requirements of Both Civil Service and Military Ranks for a reference point. The equivalent of an E-7 in the Civilian Sector is GS-6. A GS-7 = E-8. That being said, a GS-5 educational requirements is 4 academic years above high school leading to a bachelor’s degree, or Bachelor’s degree. Further a GS-5 is the equivalent rank of E-5 SGT. To gain an accelerated Rank upon initial Enlistment, "To join as a specialist (E-4), you must have a four-year degree at an accredited college or university." Therefore the tone is set with the previous requirement. The Military is more stringent on academic requirements than is that of the Federal Civil Service. So we can presume that one holding the Rank of E-7 without a College Degree is at least as qualified as one with a Bachelors + 1 year of Graduate Education. When you look at the MOS/s of the SFC and gain a JST Transcript, you may find that the number of credits recommended by ACE for the training and experience is within the 120 Semester hour recommended for the equivalence of a Bachelor Degree.

Now if you look further like USCIS (Immigration Services) 3 years of work experience = 1 year of College for the purpose of a H1B Visa. Once that Visa is approved by USCIS, you cannot discriminate against the individual for employment purposes, including the Military (if that individual was Naturalized before entry). In today's academia, one can gain a College Degree from Tests, Portfolios, Experience... even writing a Book. Not only that, there are a number of Online institutions that are accredited, Nationally and Regionally, that offer degrees in nothingness. Liberal Studies, General Studies, Independent Studies, and because they have these nothingness degrees which come from Accredited Institutions, the Military cannot discriminate. To add to the confusion. There is at least one Fully Accredited Institution that has granted Bachelor Degrees with only 9 Upper Division Semester hours in the professional field of study.

So, should an E-7 be allowed to go through Officer Candidate School to become an Officer without a College Degree? I say YES because s/he has time and grade in service as well as the Transcripted Credits for his Rank/MOS/ and level of competency that can easily be evaluated. I recently pulled my own JST to find that I have 137 Semester Hours of recommended credit, with one MOS stating institutional evaluations for credit is authorized. So on my Military career alone I meet the requirements of a Bachelor Degree with 120 Semester hours AND 10 hours of Upper Division hours in my professional studies... And, I left Service as an E-6!

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2019 12:31 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:31:46 -0500

No.
The point of the degree requirement, is to ensure that prospective officer candidates have both the 'office skills' required to do the primary job of an O (staff work), and as a 'filter' wherein those who cannot complete the 'project' of earning a degree are rejected.

The value of a degree to most white-collar civilian employees is in the fact that you completed it without quitting, going broke, or cheating/getting-expelled - and it tends to be used as a passport into white-collar work for that reason. Similarly, middle-to-senior management often requires an MBA in the civilian world, the way field-grades tend to have an MS in *something*....

Said reason is also valid in the service.

And I say that as a prior-E myself.

Response by CSM Robert J. "Bob" Parr, RD made Jan 26 at 2019 11:55 PM

CSM Robert J. "Bob" Parr, RD — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:55:46 -0500

I think we need to re-look at commissioning from ranks. Our Allies do it quite successfully. We have done in the past very successfully. Most of my peers from our Allies commissioned from ranks and continued to contribute.

My Father would have said that somebody's rice bowl is threatened. Personally I found that our personnel system has failed us.

Response by Sgt Stonewall Jackson III made Jan 30 at 2019 10:35 AM

Sgt Stonewall Jackson III — Wed, 30 Jan 2019 10:35:54 -0500

No.
That's what CWO is for.

Response by PV2 Stephen Walker made Feb 5 at 2019 7:04 PM

PV2 Stephen Walker — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 19:04:38 -0500

My dad went from E7 to CWO without college. In a lot of cases a degree is just a piece of paper. Honorable service and experience should over ride a degree any day.

Response by COL Ronald Diana made Feb 6 at 2019 7:34 AM

COL Ronald Diana — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 07:34:21 -0500

It is most certainly a tough road. I was commissioned in 1977 graduating form the last OCS class that required no college. I was a young E5 before attending OCS. While the late 70s and early 80s were a time of peace it took me 4 years to complete the degree using every tool available to me. I was an Infantry Officer in a Infantry Battalion and had 3 platoons (Rifle, Weapons and Mortar) Bn assistant staff officer (S3 Air) and Company XO. I was able to use CLEP, Life experience and after the Infantry Officers Advance Course a year of boot strap. It was not easy and often times required class attendance 4 nights a week and sometimes Saturdays. I can't imagine with the Army still Operating in Two Theaters of Operation it getting easier to succeed in moving from E7 to 2LT.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Feb 6 at 2019 12:00 PM

SGT Juan Robledo — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 12:00:32 -0500

That E7 has had a minimum of 2 years of college by the time they reach that grade, and if they don't they'll have to have the minimum to get promoted to E8, but if the E 7 is commissioned to an officer that's probably because of certain circumstances beyond their knowledge or control, maybe in combat or very extreme situations

Response by LTC Tim Pasquarelli made Feb 6 at 2019 12:05 PM

LTC Tim Pasquarelli — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 12:05:17 -0500

Yes. Very selectively. The “selective” part could include consideration that the NCO has been working on a degree before commissioning. The selective part should also include consideration of many other factors to include leadership qualities and performance in military courses that have been attended.. Agreed that the critical thinking skills are greatly enhanced with a college degree and becomes more important as an officer rises in rank. At platoon and company level a degree is less important. There are strong indicators of future potential when an NCO has already taken steps to further educational skills.. Lots of parameters available.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 1:27 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 13:27:11 -0500

I think a program like the Navy uses would be a great opportunity...
Navy Limited Duty Officer Selection Program: https://www.thebalancecareers.com/navy-limited-duty-officer-selection-program-3355997

What Is the Navy Limited Duty Officer Selection Program?

The Limited Duty Officer Program provides commissioning opportunities to qualified senior enlisted personnel and CWOs. Learn more.

Response by Capt Charles Morrison made Feb 6 at 2019 5:52 PM

Capt Charles Morrison — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 17:52:33 -0500

Having been an E-6 who after serving for 10 years separated from service, attended college and ROTC, I would say that an E-7 w/o degree has a perspective of service which is actually quite narrow. A college degree if pursued with an appropriate outlook expands the perspective and opens up the service member to possibilities that they would deprive themselves and ultimately the military possible solutions they would never have considered before. So, no degree, no commission.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 6:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Feb 2019 18:58:05 -0500

Nope.. Too much BS with the promotion system and an E-7 without at least a Bachelors Degree would be lucky to make Major within 20 years. That same E-7 would be more likely to make CSM by 20 years without all the Crap officers put up with and have a much more level playing field.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2019 1:27 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 13:27:33 -0500

No. Beyond the degree, officers are required to have the necessary GT score and pass his or her commissioning program. So many think the degree is all that's needed to be an officer and it just isn't so. If the E-7 or any enlisted person wants to commission then he or she should put in the time like the rest of us and get schooling knocked out. It is so easy to go to school these days. We don't even need to physically be on campus. I go to Johns Hopkins for grad school and have only been there once on a visit.

Response by PO2 Dave Payne made Feb 7 at 2019 1:46 PM

PO2 Dave Payne — Thu, 07 Feb 2019 13:46:30 -0500

Simple answer is NO. At the same time I would submit that Many enlisted men and women are capable of being officers, many more so than current officers. A college degree does NOT necessarily mean that someone is actually Qualified to be an officer. Many officers have Zero idea of what it means to be an enlisted person and go through the daily grind of that. I submit that in order to become an officer one should be Required to spend at least one year in an enlisted capacity before being commissioned an officer. This would give them a very real perspective of what it means to be an enlisted person and a much better perspective of those whom they will, eventually, be in command of.

Response by MSgt Robert Parker made Feb 8 at 2019 10:32 AM

MSgt Robert Parker — Fri, 08 Feb 2019 10:32:12 -0500

Yes!

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Feb 8 at 2019 8:42 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 08 Feb 2019 20:42:28 -0500

Been reading some of the discussion and good points all around. Here is the issue as I see it. Can an E-7 run a platoon just as well, if not better, than a brand spanking new 2LT? Absolutely. It happens every day. But the platoon level is really the only place where the NCO and Officer breadth of responsibilities cross. Once you start getting above that level, what officers and NCOs do begins to diverge greatly. Sure you could commission that E-7 without some of the normal pre-requisites (ie a college degree), we used to do it all the time, such as through a battlefield commission. And that new mustang officer would do fine as a PL. But unless he is going to stay at company level the rest of his career, he is really very quickly going to be out of his depths once you start getting beyond Company grade. Why? Because eventually you're going to need the higher reading, writing and critical thinking levels that college education provides. Even degrees in underwater basketweaving have to meet the same general education courses (reading, writing, math and sciences) that ALL bachelors level degrees require. So the "What Next?" point that COL Smallfield brought up becomes extremely important. The Army doesn't bring in 2LT to stay 2LT's forever. The bring in 2LT's so that they grow up into COLs and Generals. There is a reason why the Army won't allow you to commission if you are over a certain number of years active service or over a certain age. The return on investment is not there. The big picture is that they are commissioning you in the anticipation that you will compete to complete a 20yr career because they have invested a TON of money into you. A mustang 2LT who is going to max out a 1LT or CPT because he doesn't have the educational background isnt' really going to do us much good in the long run.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Feb 9 at 2019 10:49 AM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Sat, 09 Feb 2019 10:49:56 -0500

Should be case by case just like battlefield commissions. But it would be a disservice to the E7 if he or she isn't supported when they seek that college degree down the line which would be required for further advancement.

Response by PO1 Christopher Edgar made Feb 9 at 2019 10:50 AM

PO1 Christopher Edgar — Sat, 09 Feb 2019 10:50:34 -0500

Its done all the time in the Navy. The LDO (Limited Duty Officer) program allows a First Class Petty Officer and above (E-6) with six or more years in service to apply for the program. Pay grade a starts as O-1E through O-3E. At O-4 its the same pay other than time in service. One must obligate 10 more years of service if the commission is obtained. I'm surprised the Army doesn't ave such a program.

Response by CPL Steve Freeman made Feb 9 at 2019 11:52 AM

CPL Steve Freeman — Sat, 09 Feb 2019 11:52:21 -0500

Different role

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2019 4:07 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Feb 2019 16:07:33 -0500

I lean toward having the degree. There’s more to it than tenure. I retired as a Gunny. I was one of those who thought the training and experience was enough. Then I went to school and finished my degree before I retired. Getting the degree does a couple things; shows that the E7 has the drive, enhances their critical thinking, and removes any doubt/pushback for not having it. In fact, between the degree and experience, I think it would give them a leg-up on their peer lieutenants.

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Feb 10 at 2019 12:14 AM

1SG Michael Farrell — Sun, 10 Feb 2019 00:14:44 -0500

Enlisting in 1974, I knew a lot of good officers who had received direct and OCS commissions during the crunch years in Vietnam. Most of them did not have college degrees, and struggled to ge their paper before the Reduction in Force hit them between the eyes. Some became Warrant Officers, especially the Aviators. Some had managed to punch all the buttons, and stayed but didn't make it to LTC. I'm sure a few did, but I didn't know any. The ones I knew, including the guy who recruited me. About half of them got offers of reversion to previous enlisted rank or possibly with promotion to a higher E-grade than before. Some of those guys were bitter, but most were great leaders and mentors. But seeing guys with Silver Stars and CIBs and Airborne Wings with stars with reputations among those who'd known that as great leaders made me think twice about pursuing commissioned rank. You see, you serve based on the needs of the Army, and time goes by quickly. At some point, you're really not needed anymore. Best to pick that on your own terms, and not trust in the vagaries of a vast bureaucratic organization. I know a few E8s who made WO1 in ADA, and they went from being top dog to something not quite so intrinsically satisfying.

Response by SPC Lowell LaBarge made Feb 10 at 2019 1:54 PM

SPC Lowell LaBarge — Sun, 10 Feb 2019 13:54:18 -0500

I would ask what type of degree are we talking about? Sun Tzu wrote "The Art Of War", pretty sure he never even knew what a degree was.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2019 1:27 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 Feb 2019 01:27:27 -0500

Speaking from the NCO side of the house with a bachelor's degree in psychology pending, I would say that NCOs generally make better officers after having time and experience as such. Knowing and understanding what it is to be enlisted often allows an officer to empathize with the enlisted troops whilst simultaneously understanding what the Army is about. We enlisted make distinctions between those whom have been previously enlisted and the "west point babies." There is a reason why LTs are messed with constantly. I have had the unfortunate experience of having a young CPT CO make decisions that she, regardless of title, had no business making because she had no experience with the UCMJ (despite 1SGs repeated attempts at steering her in the right direction). At the end of the day, I believe that having civilian education in several departments (especially legal and physical fitness) are highly beneficial to all levels of leadership in the military, I believe that no officer should exist that has not at least transcended to the level of SSG or above (simply because a SGT varies greatly based on time as an NCO and SSG is attainable with 4 years).

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2019 10:49 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 Feb 2019 10:49:38 -0500

To the contrary, 1st Sargeant, the United States Navy does allow for E-6 & E-7 APPOINTMENTS to commissioned officer status as O-1 (Ensign in the Navy). However they are rare, as 1/2 of one percent or fewer, of enlisted personnel ever qualify. Of course, it is incumbent on the newly appointed officers to perform their duties and continue to upgrade individual qualifications continually. I was one of the few and met several more. I cannot speak for the Army, but am aware of retired soldiers who followed a career track similar to my own.

Response by SFC Michael Mott made Feb 11 at 2019 11:26 AM

SFC Michael Mott — Mon, 11 Feb 2019 11:26:41 -0500

When I was a SSG I thought about going green to gold, but it seemed like a demotion rather than a promotion. When I reached SFC, the autonomy and the ability to train young officers quickly reminded why I hadn't chosen that path. I actually enjoy the operational part of my job more than the theoretical. I do believe a SFC in todays Army should have a degree anyway if he hopes to get past SFC. With that degree he won't get any knowledge he didn't already have (at least in my case), but he'll be credentialed, and that is the first step an Officer has to take, so the standard shouldn't be lowered. A SFC in general is just stepping his toe into upper management. An officer with the same time in service will have had an entire career of upper management experience. There is a difference, in direct management at an operational level, and strategic management at the executive level. Just my 2 cents.

Response by CPL James Covalucci made Feb 11 at 2019 12:26 PM

CPL James Covalucci — Mon, 11 Feb 2019 12:26:53 -0500

NCO"s flew war planes in WW11 . And many were commission to Officers

Response by SCPO Dale Leighton made Feb 11 at 2019 2:13 PM

SCPO Dale Leighton — Mon, 11 Feb 2019 14:13:03 -0500

Only after E-7 or Chief successfully competes a senior NCO/CPO leadership Academy.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2019 6:25 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 06:25:19 -0500

A change that radical should really only be undertaken if it solves a problem or challenge that the Army cannot otherwise solve. It should not be adopted to solve the "problem" of seemingly otherwise qualified sergeants first-class not having gotten a college degree, because that's not really an Army/institutional problem to solve.

The Navy's limited duty officer program isn't the only possible model for accomplishing the goal of designing a system in which senior NCOs get commissioned. But since it's the only program in the DOD that permits it, comparisons are inevitable. The limited duty officer program has a niche purpose and creates a deliberately limited set of opportunities for senior NCOs and CWOs to fill a need the Navy cannot get through the customary route for commissioning opportunities: filling specific officer billets that require a high degree of technical proficiency. The Army addresses the need for highly technical positions two ways: through direct appointment (for lawyers, doctors, et cetera) and through the warrant officer program. Unless/until the Army has a problem recruiting junior commissioned officers capable with highly technical, specialized skillsets that senior NCOs without a degree are likely to be able to fulfill, the Army doesn't need a similar program.

In my mind, a different answer than "no" would require the question to be reframed. Specifically, I would need to understand what institutional need this proposal would solve or help address.

Response by SGT Bill Abers made Feb 12 at 2019 6:27 AM

SGT Bill Abers — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 06:27:01 -0500

Well the feeling in this Country that "you are of less value and not made whole without a degree is part of all University's need to self-perpetuate. Fund raising, to pay more, buy more, build more, and deliver less. The capabilities of the NCO are what matters, as for critical thinking then I guess if you are not a West Point Grad. with a Masters, you are of less value than a Benning OCS Grad. That is how you officers function. It is amazing that we have lost wars only with well educated leadership!

Response by CPO Jose Melendez made Feb 12 at 2019 7:37 AM

CPO Jose Melendez — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 07:37:35 -0500

A degree alone is not and should not be the decisive factor. There is a long list of factors that should be calculated to come to such determination. For example experience, commitment, reliability, communication, posture, the ability to earn the respect of others above and below, the ability to learn complicated subjects and so on. Education comes in many different ways but character and capabilities can only be measured through performance over time. Make a list of all of the attributes that makes the ideal leader, assign a weighing value to each element and then do the math. If the candidate scores high enough then he is good enough. Word of advice there needs to be a more comprehensive, less objective way to measure this. People’s opinions on a board may be skewed by whatever preconception they may have from an individual. Role playing and evaluation may be a better option (don’t tell me what you can do, show me).

Response by CPO Jose Melendez made Feb 12 at 2019 7:37 AM

CPO Jose Melendez — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 07:37:46 -0500

Response by SPC Jerry McEntire made Feb 12 at 2019 8:24 AM

SPC Jerry McEntire — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 08:24:34 -0500

It would be great to have a few officers that actually new what they were doing, a E-7 would bring a lot of knowledge with them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2019 9:32 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 09:32:39 -0500

Absolutely not! The worst officers I dealt with, in my career were those who were senior NCOs before pinning on 2LT. Direct commissioning SFCs is a mistake.

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made Feb 12 at 2019 9:54 AM

SFC Wayne Theilen — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 09:54:00 -0500

Reading that the E-7 would be at a disadvantage after 0-3. Hell if I made 0-3 and retired after 20. I’d be happy.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Feb 12 at 2019 1:27 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 13:27:38 -0500

Why shouldn't an E7 be promoted to an officer? The years of experience and leadership skills would be of great value to a platoon/company. A college education doesn't always give one the practicle experience one needs to advance in the military. Look at those men like Lt. Audie Murphy, who by his actions, rose to 1st Lt. and became a Medal of Honor recipent. He earned a combat commission for his actions. There are many more documented cases of combat commissions in war time. The only real obstacle to an E7 or any enlisted grase from becoming a commissioned officer, would be those officers who went to college or the academies.

Response by SP6 Walter Ruiter made Feb 12 at 2019 11:40 PM

SP6 Walter Ruiter — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:40:10 -0500

I do agree,

Response by 1LT Shaun Ray made Feb 12 at 2019 11:51 PM

1LT Shaun Ray — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:51:15 -0500

While in AROTC we had a few SNCOs that transitioned to the Officer side of the house. They had to endure the same training as everyone else. Ranger and Long Tabs meant nothing. Stripes only have you clout and made passing through the hoops easier. Nothing better than a Mustang (except Westpoint graduates according to most Officers). An NCO has the unique capability to understand the Soldier. In my opinion it's hard to lead when you have not served as enlisted. The other issue I see is the transition from NCO to Officer. Turning off the NCO and operating at a strategic level over tactical level can be difficult. SNCOs become SGM/CSMs as a natural transition to the next level. That is just my opinion.

Response by LTC Charles "Pappy" Patchin made Feb 13 at 2019 12:35 AM

LTC Charles "Pappy" Patchin — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 00:35:54 -0500

I believe yes. I have seen SSGs and SFCs commsnd companies and battalions. But that was a long time ago in Vietnam and the NCOs were Special Forces. I've seen E-6 & 7s receive direce commissions. Some reg says an Officer has to have a college degree. Waivers are always an option but each waiver still requires a degree sometime later. E#specially during wartime. The "green machine" will take in thousands to fight a war. At the end of obligated time the LT or Cpy will be turned away and the next in line with no college will be inducted, It was not uncommon to have someone that was a civvie one day, pass a test, in OCS then commissioned. Degree laterr. E-7 to officer, yes but the req for college is required.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Feb 13 at 2019 1:31 PM

1SG Brian Adams — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 13:31:01 -0500

Yes, allow SFCs if they currently possess a Bachelors degree. Most OCS minded NCOs know this and gain their Bach degree as they progress through enlisted ranks such as myself...
There are plenty of SFCs in ranks right now who have a bachelors degree. Set up officer courses for these transitioning NCOs. They would make great officers.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Feb 13 at 2019 10:53 PM

MSG John Duchesneau — Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:53:44 -0500

My short answer is "no". Officers need to have three dimensional thinking which, in theory, a college education provides. Also, why would an E-7 want to become an O-1? O-2 maybe but not an O-1. 2nd Lieutenants are not held in high esteem and a senior NCO would consider it to be a downgrade given their level of experience and knowledge. No, I don't think a college education makes a person "officer material" but I do think its part of the qualifications.
That being said, could an outstanding E-7 with 10 to 12 years of service and an associates degree become an good first lieutenant? Probably. If he or she can start as a first lieutenant and they serve until they get 20 years in then they would serve the bulk of their commissioned service as a captain which, by the way, the Army has usually had a shortage of.
I think that Big Army should be giving more thought to identifying outstanding NCOs at the E-5 and E-6 levels and given them the training (both civilian and military) to transition successfully to positions as officers.

Response by SGT Fredrick Ramm made Feb 14 at 2019 5:00 PM

SGT Fredrick Ramm — Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:00:26 -0500

In the (probable) words of David Hackworth: Baby, never, ever, discount this option. There may come a time, push comes to shove, when you are going to need leadership like this!
Old David, himself was a SFC and battlefield commissioned to an officer in Korea... check the book "About Face"! Was it General MacArthur? who said: "promote sergeants to company commanders, if need be; I need leaders who can fight."..or was that Hollywood Poetic Licence?

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Feb 14 at 2019 11:11 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Thu, 14 Feb 2019 23:11:49 -0500

Warrant yes

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Feb 16 at 2019 8:03 AM

1SG James Kelly — Sat, 16 Feb 2019 08:03:57 -0500

Yes.
A degree in folk dancing or interior design doesn't do a lot for military readiness; however 15 years experience does account for something.
When ever there is a shortage of 2lts a plt sgt is made plt ldr, never see a 2lt made plt sgt.
I was plt ldr a few times as a ssg and detachment commander as an sfc.
As a 1sg I had a degree.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Feb 18 at 2019 6:53 AM

LCpl Cody Collins — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:53:11 -0500

This is a very good question? I'm also part of another Military chat group, And a question what ass that runs along the same lines is this about a Marine Corps officer. The question was is a Marine Corps officer Truly a marine? At 1st I thought this question was really dumb, Then the person I asked a question pointed out the fact that Quantico is not the Marine Corps. Plus the baby center that my wife and I used to employ graduated college . She signed up To be an FBI agent she was higher in a center to Quantico Virginia and she was in the same training group as Marines and navy personnel that were there to be officers in the military. She received the exact same training up to a certain point and then they were split off for about 30 days for classroom training after that she was put back with Her group of future Marines and navy officers and they all graduated together. Everyone knows Marine Corps boot camp is a San Diego or South Carolina, And navy training bases are in San Diego Chicago and all the parts of the country. None of these individuals at Quantico went to Marine Corps boot camp or navy blue cat yet they are considered Marines and sailors or as this FBI agent went to neither , But went through the same training and yet is not consider military. I say that to say this staff NCO's regardless of how high they go in the ranks of staff NCO did go to Marine Corps blue camo or army boot camp or navy boot camp. Nowadays a lot of enlisted people already have college degrees, So if the degree makes that much of a difference then my former baby sitter should be able to transition round the field of FBI agent to military officer when no problem since they already receive the exact same training at Quantico Virginia as all the other officers now serving in the Marine Corps and Navy. They would make excellent J.A.G. officers, I think an E 7 that wants to go officer is a good Idea ! It is a win win for the military because they get to retain that experience and knowledge of the E 7 now wearing Silver bars. In a way he will be light years ahead of the other O 1 and O 2's . The critical thinking will come along, I myself am a student of chess and know what is like to have to think 4 or 5 moves ahead . I don't think the transition will be as hard as some make it out to be. But if it keeps that experience that E7 develop over the years in the military that's all the better for the military.

Response by SGT James Murphy made Feb 21 at 2019 5:37 PM

SGT James Murphy — Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:37:00 -0500

Yes, Especially given the amount of false information pushed down the throats of todays college kids! In Fact I'd Rather see them be HOME SCHOOLED! That would be a better qualification for an Officer in my opinion.

Response by PO1 Gerald Sutton made Feb 26 at 2019 8:24 PM

PO1 Gerald Sutton — Tue, 26 Feb 2019 20:24:38 -0500

Navy already has it. LDO. E-6 and up with I think 16 years service. Perform only in the rate and only promote to O-4. I was asked by command to put in for it but time restraints I didn't get the paperwork filed in time.

Response by SSG Joseph Dowell made Mar 6 at 2019 3:04 PM

SSG Joseph Dowell — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 15:04:32 -0500

As mentioned by a LCDR above, this was common in WWII. My dad served 27 years after a direct commission while in his sophomore year of college. He retired a CDR and almost made captain, though he never completed his Bachelors degree.

As a former NCO there were officers I served with who went from green to gold who should never have been commissioned, there were also a few good soldiers who would have made a great officer. Honestly, as another has pointed out, the needs of the military usually determine decisions like this, rather than common sense, but it would be a great motivator for some soldiers if this were an option for them

Response by PO1 Todd McMillin made Mar 8 at 2019 8:50 AM

PO1 Todd McMillin — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 08:50:25 -0500

Unlike the Army or Marines; the Navy and Air Force both have more chances to go to College and get a degree (even a two year AA/AS) with their experience. Hell, I retired as an E-6 (AT1/AW) and when I went to University and they looked at my transcripts with military experience in Avionics, Aviation Electrical, etc. I'd had more hands on experience combined than most of the current staff that taught there I had the Working Experience of a Masters Degree.

Therefore when some officers look down upon the experiences of the enlisted world remember that our experiences often translate better to degree qualifications will real world action vs theory of a classroom. 10-15-20 years of real world job experiences is more than enough to justify making an E-7 into an officer (MUSTANG) that's why the statement is laughable since unlike the usual officers who go in and are needing an E-7 to wipe their noses and keep them in check is ironic.

Maybe officers need to stop looking down their noses at the Enlisted community; especially Senior Enlisted and realize that they're the ones who are more grounded and connected to reality vs the delusions of leadership that come with a commission. Respect is earned vs given just because they're an "officer". I've seen plenty of enlisted folks who loathed their officer corps because of their snobbish and snotty behavior of being commissioned. While their actions as officers when they get into trouble often bled over to the Enlisted taking the brunt of the punishment for their incompetence; mostly Junior Officers who don't know anything yet. More problems would be solved by having E-7s being commissioned either as Warrants or Officer (Mustangs) to show continual leadership the college degree is just a piece of paper to be elitist.

Response by Sgt Justen Ortloff made Mar 8 at 2019 8:57 AM

Sgt Justen Ortloff — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 08:57:01 -0500

They can already. It's called Warrant Officer, and I've known Warrant's who have made field grade.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2019 9:23 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 09:23:38 -0500

Show me the order in the Army or Marine Corps that requires a college degree to Commission? It does not exist. Regularly in World War 2, Korea, and Vietnam, NCO's were commissioned or battlefield commission, depending on the situation. If you believe a degree makes an officer you are mistaken. A degree can be helpful but there are plenty of those with degrees whom have no critical thinking skills and have very poor management ability. Officers go through training and that is what makes them an officer. It just sounds good to claim how educated you must be to become an officer. There is no order requiring a degree to become an officer. The military is a trade at the end of the day. If an E7 is in excellent standing and posses the skill and knowledge to perform as an officer why not let them? Some 22 year old with a degree in Art History is not more qualified to lead military personnel than an E7 with 7 or more years experience in the military. I actually believe it should be a requirement to be enlisted for two years before you can become an officer. You should follow before you lead, at least thats what I was told throughout my USMC training. Does that not apply to commissioned officers?

Response by MAJ Bob Firth made Mar 8 at 2019 1:51 PM

MAJ Bob Firth — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 13:51:25 -0500

I have no objection, but there needs to be a stipulated time to obtain a bachelors degree. This may be tough with deployments, JRTC/NTC rotations, etc. E7 is the last stop in TO&E at platoon level, next is staff and 1SG positions which are a lot less physically demanding. Infantry wise, most E7s were starting to suffer from years of physical injury. Going back as an O1 and having about 8 more years of getting beaten up physically might not be a great idea, but could be done.

Response by SGT Howard Hong made Mar 8 at 2019 2:05 PM

SGT Howard Hong — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 14:05:29 -0500

I think we should do it, subject to promotion board approval.

Sincerely,
Howard S. Hong
SGT, USA (Retired)

Response by SPC Jon Terry made Mar 8 at 2019 3:02 PM

SPC Jon Terry — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 15:02:02 -0500

It a good idea you know they already have the leadership skills

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2019 8:15 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Mar 2019 20:15:24 -0500

Fuck no.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2019 8:26 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Mar 2019 08:26:52 -0500

No I do not think we the U.S. Army should allow E-7s to be promoted (demoted) to 2LT without the proper level of college degree as is prescribed by regulation for any officers. I agree with SFC Jones, Why would a self respecting senior NCO want to flow to bottom of the ladder again in both rank and pay? I know many senior NCO;s who have the required degree and if the decision were made by the leadership they could be promoted to 2LT and attend the required class's nessessary for the next higher grade

Response by SPC Ron Salsbury made Mar 9 at 2019 9:50 AM

SPC Ron Salsbury — Sat, 09 Mar 2019 09:50:44 -0500

Very interesting question asked here, and many interesting answers; some serious and some sarcastic. Yes a college degree is a requirement to become an Officer, but the college degree in the civilian world basically says, I'm committed and trainable. As NCO's they attend training for each rank beginning at E-5 up through E-7 if I am not mistaken, and in a sense this is level and experience training similar to college, building off the basic principles that you have learned previously from before,very close to Blooms Taxonomy the same exact learning strategy colleges employ to teach students who become Officer's. The one instance for promotion that I will not argue with is combat, any NCO that distinguishes themselves under fire is more than worthy of leadership at this point. One final thought that I do feel common among most enlisted, we have greater respect for most Officer's who were enlisted ranks at E-5 or higher before becoming commissioned, because most know where they came from and will regard their troops first and foremost as their most valuable assets to the unit. Lastly, there are good Officer's and bad ones, same for NCO's, college is not the determining factor; courage, character, and strong leadership abilities is what makes the best qualities our military has to offer our country, this is why we have the best Officer's and NCO's in any military hands down.

Response by LtCol Paul Bowen made Mar 9 at 2019 3:44 PM

LtCol Paul Bowen — Sat, 09 Mar 2019 15:44:08 -0500

Ask Captain Dale Dye USMC (RET)...the “Glass Ceiling” without a college degree is Captain/O-3E.

Or...Limited Duty Officer structure to Major/O-4 and LtCol/O-5...depends on what the individual’s capability is and what their potential for future service is.

Response by PO1 Charles Babcock made Mar 9 at 2019 8:22 PM

PO1 Charles Babcock — Sat, 09 Mar 2019 20:22:31 -0500

For a CWO or LDO rank i'd say yes if they meet all the other requirements As a line officer. NO.

Response by MAJ John Collins made Mar 9 at 2019 9:12 PM

MAJ John Collins — Sat, 09 Mar 2019 21:12:53 -0500

Back in 1985 I received a direct commission from Sergeant First Class to Second Lieutenant in the Armor Branch. Six months later, after passing a flight physical and FAST I was at Ft Rucker, AL and learned how to fly helicopters. This was one of the most rewarding experiences of my career. Later, I was in the First Gulf War flying a Blackhawk as a Platoon Leader in an Air Assault Company, A Co., 7th/158th Avn Regt.
Unfortunately, in 1994, my Aviation unit was inactivated. My choice was to get out of the Army or find another job. I chose to be an Army Nurse. As a Senior Captain in Aviation I got assigned to a General Hospital and performed duties as a Training Officer and later as the Adjutant, branch immaterial. I got an Associate Degree in Nursing, passed my board exams and received a second Direct Commission to First Lieutenant. Yeah, I got busted back from Captain to 1LT. That's OK. I was commissioned as a Critical Care Nurse, 66H8A, and continued to work on my Bachelors Degree. Later, I made Captain again and deployed to Iraq as the Assistant OIC of an ER in Tikrit and as the OIC of the Flight Nurse Detachment.
After I was promoted to Major, I got assigned to the GPMRC , Global Patient Movement Requirement Center at Scott AFB. For three years I coordinated the movement of patients from the Middle East to Germany and then to the US. I evaluated their ability to fly and ensured the right equipment and personnel accompanied them and later when they came to the US we found facilities close to their families where they could continue their recovery.
I've had a rewarding career. As a Senior NCO I learned how to move, shoot, and communicate.
I carried those skills with me as an Officer.

Response by PO2 Michael Sayre made Mar 9 at 2019 10:15 PM

PO2 Michael Sayre — Sat, 09 Mar 2019 22:15:19 -0500

Until the military develops a hard requirement that degrees will be utilized in the areas in which they apply; I don't see a problem.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2019 10:19 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Mar 2019 22:19:26 -0500

The real question here is do you need a degree to be an officer? The answer is no and my reasoning is the current system of quantity over quality leadership is flawed and perpetuated by a non-warrior culture (military academies, yuck, are the exception). I’m not sure there is any organization who trusts junior management with so much responsibility at the start of their career. They are literally responsible for the lives of their subordinates. Who would you rather have a lead your child into combat? A leader who has been in the military for several years with demonstrated leadership potential or a recent college grad who took a few electives and attended a summer camp?

Response by Capt James King made Mar 10 at 2019 1:56 PM

Capt James King — Sun, 10 Mar 2019 13:56:26 -0400

Some degrees are more relevant than others such as a degree in gender studies will not help in the military.

Response by MSG Dallas Williams made Mar 10 at 2019 2:05 PM

MSG Dallas Williams — Sun, 10 Mar 2019 14:05:56 -0400

I believe an E-7 to officer transition without a degree is unnecessary. Any experienced NCO with the motivation to become an officer would have already sought self-improvement through obtaining their degree. If they are not, then most likely there is something wrong and consideration for transition would be a mistake in my estimation. Check all the blocks, no short-cuts needed here...

Response by PO1 Michael Brouty made Mar 10 at 2019 6:30 PM

PO1 Michael Brouty — Sun, 10 Mar 2019 18:30:15 -0400

Certainly they should be promoted. How does a degree in say "Art History" Or "Gender Studies" help a Officer in the military ? Most E-7's I've known knew a hellva lot more about what was important, than ANY Lt. I ever met.

Response by CDR Mick Rankin made Mar 10 at 2019 9:57 PM

CDR Mick Rankin — Sun, 10 Mar 2019 21:57:46 -0400

Interesting question. There is certainly precedent, namely battlefield commissions for those who distinguish themselves before the enemy. That said, the unrestricted line commission is typically only given to those with a degree. Warrant Officer and Limited Duty Officer commissions do not require a degree (however most have or gain them during their career). The degree requirement is not because of some antiquated rule, but is based in educational process where the degree holder has become accustomed to questioning processes, has advanced math and science to allow them to develop solutions based on theoretical knowledge, and writing/language skills developed in advanced education classes that allow them to effectively communicate. Finally, advancement in rank at the senior levels are typically awarded to those with continuing education with masters degree programs so without the basic undergraduate degree advancement would stagnate. One final thought. Senior enlisted are an important part of the rank structure, especially in training new junior officers in leadership. JO's may have the advanced education but are lacking in the practical experience. The senior enlisted provides the link to gaining that experience without the unit suffering from lack of leadership. If a senior enlisted wants a commission then they should pursue that path, meeting the requirements as currently in place.

Response by SFC Wade Adams made Mar 10 at 2019 10:18 PM

SFC Wade Adams — Sun, 10 Mar 2019 22:18:18 -0400

Yes, why not? For those of us that wasn’t ready to retire or give up our time in service, it would extend the time. Which brings me to a quest I had on something somewhat similar, should military experience (20+years) count as a college degree for jobs that require a bachelors degree? I have an associates, however, due to life circumstances, I’m unable to finish school (Financial reasons).

Response by COL Ray Holmes made Mar 11 at 2019 5:19 AM

COL Ray Holmes — Mon, 11 Mar 2019 05:19:56 -0400

Response by PO2 Derek Belanger made Mar 12 at 2019 2:59 AM

PO2 Derek Belanger — Tue, 12 Mar 2019 02:59:36 -0400

No. Whilst an E7 has gained a great deal of seniority and expertise at this level, the skills learned in college have not been obtained. The point of writing papers and evaluating ideas on an academic level is to teach critical thinking. As an officer, one must do more than manage enlisted assets and liaise between said enlisted and officer. An officer is expected to develop policy and procedure at a level that could potentially include that at the highest levels in Washington. In order to do so, one must possess the skills to evaluate and express ideas on paper. This is not a skill taught at the enlisted level. Rather, the enlisted level focuses on leadership by example, demonstration of skill, delegation of tasks, and effective employment of each asset. While this is not outside the realm of being an officer, there is another level to being an officer that is provided by a college education.

Response by SFC Siva Williams made Mar 12 at 2019 7:58 AM

SFC Siva Williams — Tue, 12 Mar 2019 07:58:01 -0400

This is a fair question but it overlooks the current centralized NCO promotion system. It is extremely difficult for an E-6 to get promoted to E-7 without an Associate's degree at the minimum. Bachelor's are preferred while Master's degrees are considered exceptional and would get the Soldier maximum points for the civilian education aspect. Now juxtapose this aspect to the question at hand. Most of your senior NCOs will have a two or four year degree. So requesting a commission is usually not a problem. I am a medic and it is not unheard of for SFCs with AS or AA degrees to request and receive a commission pending completion of the Physician's Assistant course. They will have a BS at the completion of the course. There is also a pathway for medical personnel to enter the Nurse's Corps without a BS degree. The caveat is that they must have completed their BS by their commissioning. So yes. E-7s are allowed to commission to O-1 (assuming they haven't reached 12+ TIS).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2019 12:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Mar 2019 12:41:54 -0400

I worked with a lot of Navy personnel while in Iraq. Two were what the navy calls Limited Duty Officers (LDO). If I remember the explanation correctly, the LDOs cannot, generally, command, except for small detachments or smaller boats, and (again, if I remember correctly) could never advance past O-3 or 4. Both the LDOs that worked with me had advanced to E-6/7, prior to being appointed as LDOs. They were great officers and, obviously, made the most of their previous experience. Ever since that time, I think the Army has (pardon the pun) missed the boat on use of similar experience that could be gained by a similar program. Further, I acknoledge that any officer has a broader initial base of knowledge (joint ops, strategic planning, etc.). I and many of my senior enlisted colleagues at my current command can run rings around some of the O-3/4s, with the caveat that the sharper O-3/4s grasp the concepts faster than a newly arrived E-6/7. As such, I am frequently asked for advice by some of the officers. If the Army had LDOs, I might explore that as a way of doing something challenging; G-3/J-3 is now only challenging when I seek out things well above my experience level.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2019 1:53 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Mar 2019 13:53:41 -0400

What would Sr NCOs have to do if LTs were Sr NCOs beforehand?
That is over half our job!
Union rules say no to this outrage of having over-qualified Lieutenants.

Response by SPC C. Michael Morrison made Mar 12 at 2019 5:11 PM

SPC C. Michael Morrison — Tue, 12 Mar 2019 17:11:47 -0400

Why not? As a former E4 - 11B/68W I have never competed a College Degree, but built up a successful international security company. http://www.lhssinternational.com

I have met a lot of educated idiots in my time who spent four (4) years reading books about a subject and then never go into that field. I'd rather take an experienced degree-less person and bring them onto my Management Team (Officer Corp) than take a chance on a person who has a degree in a field that has nothing to do with my industry. Hence I have several former Army MPs and Navy Master-at-Arms working for me, but not a single Officer.

Michael Morrison, CPO, CPS
President/CEO
LionHeart Security Services
Tempe, AZ / London / Rio de Janiero / Bangkok / Melbourne

www.lhssinternational.com

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2019 8:42 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Mar 2019 20:42:15 -0400

This is an easy answer for me. I was an E7 that became an O1E. I was an E7 that was offered 2 different E8 positions as I was commissioning and I had to turn them down. I didn’t have a degree at the time I became and officer. I was required to have 90 hours of credit before commissioning, and before I made CPT I had to have a 4 year degree. I currently have 2 Master Degrees, and working on 2 Doctorate Degrees and 2 additional Masters Degrees. I serve on numerous boards, own 4 businesses, and I have been consistently rated in the top 5% of my peers during any board at any time in my officer career. I don’t see why we wouldn’t make it possible. Not all will succeed, but then again there are successes and failures from all commissioning sources. Give good Soldiers opportunities and they generally rise to the occasion. At least that’s been my experience.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2019 8:53 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Mar 2019 20:53:54 -0400

Non-commissioned Officers are the backbone of the Army! The only thing that used to separate an enlisted Soldier from an Officer was a degree. These days in the Army, degrees are a dime a dozen. Why should a seasoned SSG or SFC with a degree make less than a new lieutenant who can only survive if the NCO trains them? A SSG or SFC can absolutely commission as an Officer, and would be more successful right away because they're already trained! Starting fiscal year 2020, the DOD should start closing the pay gap by continuing to increase enlisted pay and keeping Officer increases at around 1 percent until the gap is closed.

Response by SFC Rory Kempf made Mar 13 at 2019 9:03 AM

SFC Rory Kempf — Wed, 13 Mar 2019 09:03:37 -0400

Why would an E-7 want to be an officer? As a senior NCO in my last unit a RAOC as a OPS SGT I was in command per SOP when the COL was not on duty. Majors and Captains hated me. Nco's look after the troops no college degree required.

Response by SMSgt Israel Ramirez made Mar 13 at 2019 10:32 AM

SMSgt Israel Ramirez — Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:32:32 -0400

I think SR NCO should have the rank of an officer, only if graduated with a Bachelor's degree as minimum. Why? There are many active duty Air Force Sr. NCO's that are doing jobs that before were only done by an officer. More often than not, the Sr. NCO would have more civilian education than a fresh Lt. Sure there are mechanism that you can try to become an officer, like OTS and other programs, but this is not the issue here.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2019 1:58 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:58:13 -0400

I knew 2 senior Captains that were passed over for Major. They were allowed to stay in as a GySgt. It's on a case by case basis, and not that frequent. I'd say no on E7 to Officer though, unless it meets the needs of the service and they are fully qualified.

Response by CH (COL) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2019 3:53 PM

CH (COL) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Mar 2019 15:53:46 -0400

I have noticed a tendency to reduce qualifications on s number of fronts. This seems often to result in lower quality and diminished drive.

Response by SFC James Tihanyi made Mar 13 at 2019 6:57 PM

SFC James Tihanyi — Wed, 13 Mar 2019 18:57:03 -0400

At time of War or in some Combat situations, such promotions could be acceptable, if the Mission would justify it and the Command would benefit from such a move!

Response by MSG Tony Hughes made Mar 13 at 2019 9:15 PM

MSG Tony Hughes — Wed, 13 Mar 2019 21:15:12 -0400

Maybe other armies do that but its not the way we do it nor should we. From the time you enlist you should be taking advantage of education opportunities if you want to advance.
In todays military you will get passed over on promotion if you are not working on education and upgrading your 201 file. Go to the necessary training if you want to be an officer

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2019 9:50 PM

1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Mar 2019 21:50:53 -0400

USAF MSgt (E-7) here.

With deployments, TDYs, a baby on the way, and a demanding shop while PCS’ing between 4 countries, I finished my degree, applied and was selected for training to become an officer.

It cost a lot of late nights, early mornings, and family time (they were very supportive and agreed for me to go through the obstacles).

The degree itself doesn’t make me feel any more smarter than the professionals woven into our enlisted corps, but it was a benchmark that was set before me that I had to meet or exceed.

Did I have to overcome a lot more than the 24 year old college grad butterbar?

Maybe...maybe not, but those were the stakes levied upon me. As a SNCO, I completely understand the thought behind the question.

Response by Sgt Tom Verify made Mar 14 at 2019 12:48 PM

Sgt Tom Verify — Thu, 14 Mar 2019 12:48:29 -0400

Enlisted with minimum of 12 years service, excellent performance ratings, and holding a bachelors degree from an accredited college, should have the opportunity to "mustang" to O-2 or O-3, and definitely to O-3 if he or she holds a masters degree.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2019 2:07 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Mar 2019 14:07:16 -0400

One of the finest officers that I ever served with had no formal college education. From WWII through Vietnam, he was a soldiers soldier ... http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/fdietric.htm

Frank Leslie Dietrich, Colonel, United States Army

Biography of Colonel Dietrich

Response by SP6 Jessica Regan made Mar 14 at 2019 3:21 PM

SP6 Jessica Regan — Thu, 14 Mar 2019 15:21:37 -0400

Experience can far outweigh a degree. If the NCO already does excellent work performing in tasks that an officer typically does, but isn't receiving credit or the pay that goes with that position we could eventually lose these very dedicated soldiers.

Why not have a pathway of incentive in place for exemplary soldiers to consider before they are honorably discharged? Send them to Officer Candidate School at the very least and make this a case by case scenario with certain requirements. For instance a recommendation should be presented before the board who makes this decision and endorsed by 3 officers who have witnessed this individual doing more than what is required of him. His 201 file should be chock full of 'letters of recommendation' or letters of achievements, letters of commendation, medals, certificates from extra coursework or training in his field that he scored high on. Considering all that I think this E-7 should be allowed to study for and take the exam that all officer candidates take, and if he passes, promote him and make him an officer upon re-enlistment.

Response by CW4 Jim Shelburn made Mar 14 at 2019 4:43 PM

CW4 Jim Shelburn — Thu, 14 Mar 2019 16:43:25 -0400

A college degree may be useful, but I believe that too much value is given to obtaining a college degree. It would depend on the degree and where it was received. As a company President and CEO, I give more emphasis on experience over a degree when someone is applying for a job.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2019 12:07 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Mar 2019 00:07:20 -0400

The Army has a great program for senior NCOs...the Warrant Officer Program

Response by MAJ Seth Goldstein made Mar 15 at 2019 9:59 AM

MAJ Seth Goldstein — Fri, 15 Mar 2019 09:59:00 -0400

It doesn't work that way. The degree is a requirement and speaks to learning critical thinking. What E-7 would want to start over as a butter bar anyway?

Response by Sgt Daniel J. Daly made Mar 17 at 2019 3:22 AM

Sgt Daniel J. Daly — Sun, 17 Mar 2019 03:22:22 -0400

Must be some “new” kind of regulation. When I was in the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War every Friday afternoon some Gunny or 1sr Sgt was getting promoted to a 2D Lt or a Warrant Officer and I don’t believe any of them had a college degree.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Mar 17 at 2019 10:14 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Sun, 17 Mar 2019 22:14:15 -0400

This or any E7 either gets a degree or applies for warrant. After Vietnam captains were discharged with 17 years and 9 months if they did not have a degree. I personally no 5.

Response by PO1 Tom Follis made Mar 19 at 2019 7:56 PM

PO1 Tom Follis — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:56:09 -0400

In the Navy, who better to become an officer than an E-7. Happens all the time. Chances are, what’s taught in college has nothing to do with the Navy. College is just a ticket to becoming an officer. E-7s, 8s and 9s make Naval officers what they are.

Response by 1LT Rich Voss made Mar 20 at 2019 3:31 PM

1LT Rich Voss — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 15:31:26 -0400

I've read many of the comments and it just goes to show how much things have changed since I served. I lost my 2S deferment due to my Father's illness and was drafted in 10/66. So, missed out on going to the Ivy League Univ I had been accepted to, and was a bit "PO'd". Long story short, I placed very high on multiple Army tests, actually enlisted to get schools, did all of the pre-OCS testing, was sent to an OCS-prep AIT, and successfully completed Armor OCS at Fort Knox in 8/67. I was still 19 with absolutely NO college. Viet Nam was in full swing, and although I'd had multiple orders to go there ("ultimate assignment Viet Nam" for all you old guys), I got sent to West Germany. Our unit there was woefully short of officers, and my Platoon SGT (E7) had been serving as platoon leader for some time. Another platoon in my company had another E7 doing same duty, as were at least two per line company in our tank battalion. In my opinion, they were ALL much more experienced fulfilling that function than any "butter bar". When I shut up and actually learned from my E7 things went MUCH better. Was I smarter than any of these SGTs, probably in "book smarts" and very specialized training, but from a practical and experience standpoint they were far and away better...at that point in time. Did any of them WANT to become officers ? No. I asked each of them that question because I had an inquiring mind. They did sort of resent us newly made LTs at first because they liked doing things "their way" and had that special bond with their fellow EMs, YES they did. But we all ended up getting along. I did not envy them their job, as when we finally started getting more junior officers THEY had more of us to train. Repeatedly. Additionally, I ended up having multiple CPT level positions as we didn't have any of those either. To finally answer the question posed: "Yes" ! I believe that if an E7 has the willingness and can pass all of the required testing to have the opportunity to become an officer, that should be granted. Whether that soldier actually completes the training and course requirements is up to that individual and their commanders, ensuring they have the time for classwork and proper mentoring.

Response by SSgt Russell Stevens made Mar 25 at 2019 7:14 PM

SSgt Russell Stevens — Mon, 25 Mar 2019 19:14:33 -0400

Absolutely. Anyone in an E7 grade likely has better leadership qualifications than any O1, O2, or O3.

Response by LCDR Dave Spurlock made Mar 27 at 2019 12:40 AM

LCDR Dave Spurlock — Wed, 27 Mar 2019 00:40:11 -0400

1SG: I sense that this question is directed to your service department however you superseded that by asking if the “military should let an E-7 commission as an officer without a college degree?” So I will relate my history in the Navy. The Navy has a direct accession program called the “Limited Duty Officer” Program. I was a Chief Petty Officer (E-7) with no college degree when I applied for the program. I was selected and I received a Commission from Congress as would any officer in the Department of Defense. Our career field(s) are restricted to specific areas of expertise. We can become Commanding Officers, again within our career fields; mine was Aviation Maintenance and Logistics. I retired as an O-4 - without a college degree. But again, that is Navy specific. “Go Navy - Beat Army

Response by SCPO David Nesbitt made Mar 27 at 2019 11:29 PM

SCPO David Nesbitt — Wed, 27 Mar 2019 23:29:12 -0400

The Navy has had what they refer to as Limited Duty Officers from E-6. If an E-7 eats the requirements then promote them. I did 30 years the Navy. Retired as a SCPO. I loved ya job specialty. If I went Leo I would end u in a job I trained out of.

Response by AB Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2019 4:33 AM

AB Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Mar 2019 04:33:21 -0400

I finished my ROTC in 1993, when the MIANG had a program where you could start ROTC with 66 credits however you had to have a bachelors to get your commission. I did not.
I finished my degree in 2001.
I was an E-5 Promotable to E-6 and was given a commission it was called green to gold, in 2001, a year later I was given my Federal commision... Had to have my degree.

Response by SSG Jerry Chlarson made Apr 8 at 2019 2:39 PM

SSG Jerry Chlarson — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 14:39:39 -0400

Having been Enlisted then attending OCS I will tell you college didn't make the man. Experience and OJT are what gave me the skill set I learned. The Army at all levels has Leadership Courses (gateways) that need to be attended before promoion. Whether it is NCOES or The War College, if a person can attend and pass the course, then they have the mental, education, and mindset to be a leader. Hell, the vast majority of college grads don't even work in their career field. Two examples under my own roof I will point out. Me, I am an Aviation Studies, but was a Field Artillery Man and now I am searching for a job in the Outdoor Recreation Industry (Cycling Industry to be specific) and my spouse is a Music Major and works for a University in the Gift Processing (Accounting) Center, a job she readily admits an HS Grad could do. Another is my Father, a Vietnam Vet that went into the Cable Industry as an HS Grad and worked his way up to become a System Manager where his responsibilities were way more than I would ever want. He spent 35 years in the field and I watched it go from Microwave feeds to digital addressing systems. The tech far out-speed any college a person needed to understand and deal with the growth of the industry. His hobby, building Hot Rods from the ground up. This requires Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, and a whole battlefield of Laws and Regulations in order to meet the requirements for a modern-day street legal car. His results are all over the walls and shelves with so many first and second place awards, I lost track of them. Critical Thinking requires much more than just a piece of paper on the wall that says Graduate of ... And we all know how many College Educated people out there that are dumb as a rock trying to swim the English Channel during a winter storm swimming to France but headed towards Iceland.

If an individual can prove his/her ability to meet the requirements and skills needed to lead, then maybe college shouldn't be the only thing holding Soldiers back from Excellence. One last note, while serving in the National Guard for close to 15 years after Active Duty, I learned that many, many of my fellow soldiers were more educated than I. Some even with Ph.D.'s or working on their Graduate Studies, that were just happy as a clam being enlisted, even knowing many Officers that went from being in the "O" pay grades back to the "E" pay grades because they liked the job better. One including myself. A person happy in the field they are working in is always trying to become better, I would much rather have them in Leadership than some guy who hates the world and proves it every day by the way they treat their peers.

College has become the new HS only this time, you will be paying for it for the next 20 years, plus your taxes to send your kids through the next round of the system.

Response by SSG George Pruitt made Apr 9 at 2019 9:48 PM

SSG George Pruitt — Tue, 09 Apr 2019 21:48:48 -0400

Yes

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2019 12:33 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Apr 2019 12:33:39 -0400

Yes

Response by SSG Michael Taylor made Apr 11 at 2019 7:37 PM

SSG Michael Taylor — Thu, 11 Apr 2019 19:37:29 -0400

All for the idea. I had a prior enlisted PL that was a SFC(P) and he was the best out of the 12 or so I had in my 7 years. When I was much younger, I thought it would be a good idea if all board members of the E5/SGT board agreed to allow an offer of direct commission to the top X% of high-speed E4 types.

Then again the military isn't terribly interested in the best and brightest earning a Commission, only saying such. Who else remembers SMA Chandler's hatred of tattoos and the former policy of not allowing enlisted to commission if they had ink that showed in summer PT uniform? My denied Warrant Packet remembers.

Response by SSG Samuel Kermon made Apr 12 at 2019 11:16 AM

SSG Samuel Kermon — Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:16:35 -0400

Personally, I think every officer needs a short term enlistment. Having said that I think having a college degree is also essential in developing a future officer. Get the degree, get the bar.

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Apr 12 at 2019 11:43 AM

Sgt Charles Welling — Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:43:46 -0400

Should be allowed? Really? Many fine officers in the past have been enlisted men with no degree. This concept requires many considerations, the individual and his/her abilities and the future path the person can be successful at. The stumbling block will likely be the elitist officers with no vision standing in the way. BTW, a college degree does not guarantee educational skills or critical thinking abilities. A college degree 2nd Lt educated in music or philosophy does not bring the same things to the table as one with an engineering degree as examples. So, the type of college degree is the most important factor and how it supports the needs of the future path.

Response by LTC Ronald Stephens made Apr 12 at 2019 2:15 PM

LTC Ronald Stephens — Fri, 12 Apr 2019 14:15:52 -0400

I have known NCOs that would have made fine officers and a few officers that wouldn't have been more than a mediocre NCO, let alone an officer. I guess I'll have to bow to the current commissioning requirements on this subject. With that said, I have a very good friend who is a retired master sergeant with a masters degree in chemistry and I expect he has a lot of company out there.

Response by SFC(P) Jonathan P. made Apr 12 at 2019 2:51 PM

SFC(P) Jonathan P. — Fri, 12 Apr 2019 14:51:14 -0400

- E-7 usually have more than 9-10 years of service and have plenty of experience in military tactics, training, probably deployment or two, ASI/SQI Schools, etc.

Regardless they will still have to go through OCS which will also train, educate, and prepare them to become officers.
How can you trust more a brand new LT fresh out of college ( unless it’s from West Point) and even then , can be more prepared and or military oriented than some one with already 8+ years of service. Given that after OCS they can be able to now work on their degrees to move up in the chain to become O-2,O-3, etc... which is understandable...

I would say this is something that should be looked into and like everything else in the army have its criteria reviewed by leadership and lower enlisted.

Response by PO2 Michael Edgar made Apr 12 at 2019 3:05 PM

PO2 Michael Edgar — Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:05:36 -0400

Absolutely not, the Navy allows E6 and above to apply for commission as limited duty officers (where they are officers in their job specialty) and this works well.
But unrestricted line officers need a broad education to prepare the for a wide range of responsibility. While senior enlisted have experience it tends to be withiytheir specialty

Response by TSgt Wayne Johnson made Apr 12 at 2019 8:33 PM

TSgt Wayne Johnson — Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:33:54 -0400

It is my belief that a collage degree is not the proff of a good leader. I have know a heck of a lot officers that could not lead an Airman to the bathroom. On the other had I have know NCOs that were born leaders.

Response by Maj Maria Avellaneda made Apr 13 at 2019 3:37 PM

Maj Maria Avellaneda — Sat, 13 Apr 2019 15:37:43 -0400

Absolutely no. Officers represent our Armed Forces and need basic general education to perform the Myriad of tasks required of officers without any training, as an officer I was assigned full time duties in carreeers that I had no specific training, such as Public affairs Officer. There is a significant number of NCOs with both bachelors degrees and masters degrees. If somebody should be an officer, it should be those with the right education. Those that meet general requirements. Why should some Be allowed to join the officer force without meeting all the requirements met by the officer force that it’s all the officers in the Armed forces.

If you want to allow more opportunities, give waivers on medical conditions!

Response by Sgt Davud Hepner made Apr 14 at 2019 9:30 AM

Sgt Davud Hepner — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 09:30:11 -0400

There need to be more senior NCO to officer corps transfers. We need someone to offset Lieutenant Snowflake with a Liberal Arts degree in Woman's Studies.

Response by GySgt Thomas Vick made Apr 14 at 2019 11:02 AM

GySgt Thomas Vick — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 11:02:33 -0400

I think yes, because of the experience that the Senior NCO's have to offer, Education isn't everything especially in this day and age.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2019 12:21 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 12:21:02 -0400

No. Units need SNCOs. Just get your damn degreee if you want to be an officer. Everyone seems to forget the purpose of college. It's not about some BS online basket weaving degree, it was supposed to educate you (as in, the rich people) on a variety of things to elevate your thought process and make you cultured and aware. It's as much about the process as the result. If you have an undergrad degree from a purely online university I feel sorry for you because you were cheated.
I spent three years as a full time college student and, even though I am content with not finishing my degree, I can truly say that it made me a much more well-rounded and thoughtful person with a greater understanding of many social processes. I dare say my critical thinking skills are highly improved due to the countless hours spent on research and argument papers, as well as classroom debates.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Apr 14 at 2019 2:57 PM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 14:57:29 -0400

During my time in the Army from 1987 to 2008, I've met a CW3, that became an E-7, and I have met, and served under FORMER NCO'S that became Officers. During my time at Fort Lee, Virginia as an Instructor, I knew fellow NCO'S(2 of them were E-7's, one was a former Drill Sergeant) that went the Officer/Warrant Officer route. Now, I don't know any of their circumstances or educational backgrounds. However, The NCO's that I knew at Fort Lee, had opportunities to go to College, be it on post, or online, or a mixture of both.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2019 3:45 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 15:45:37 -0400

I'm lost at an E-7 without a degree already. Some of my NCOs even had masters.

Response by Lt Col Bill Fletcher made Apr 14 at 2019 8:04 PM

Lt Col Bill Fletcher — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 20:04:55 -0400

No. However, if the career filed allows it perhaps a Warrant Officer a lot could be appropriate.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2019 11:09 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Apr 2019 23:09:30 -0400

Isn't that what warrant officers are for?

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Apr 15 at 2019 12:52 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 00:52:22 -0400

No.go warrant

Response by SSgt Alan Lopez made Apr 15 at 2019 2:21 AM

SSgt Alan Lopez — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 02:21:57 -0400

Perhaps in the combat arms MOSs'. But why would an E-7 want to be an O-1,the cut in pay alone would discourage the senior enlisted person from wanting to transition to second lieutenant.

Response by CPL Clyde Willis made Apr 15 at 2019 9:23 AM

CPL Clyde Willis — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 09:23:44 -0400

Short answer: no.

A college degree will not make anyone more intelligent, courageous, or experienced. It will, however, make one more well rounded when it comes to education. Those sociology and psychology classes are invaluable when it comes to the type of policy directing leadership expected of officers. Higher level math and science classes provide a base of knowledge that is often not acknowledged and taken for granted, but really important on a day to day basis.

Personally, I think the US military could use some modernization when it comes to rank structure. But I also think that having a well rounded education is important for chain of command. Of course we all know an E-7 without a 4 year degree that would make an excellent officer, but I fear those examples are the exception and not the norm. Also, there are a great number of officers who have a 4 year degree but could not hack the job of a platoon sergeant or first sergeant.

Response by PFC James Sander made Apr 15 at 2019 2:34 PM

PFC James Sander — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:34:10 -0400

i do believe that they should be on a probation period of 6 months before they can be paaid as an o1

Response by SGT Frank G made Apr 15 at 2019 7:56 PM

SGT Frank G — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 19:56:54 -0400

No! That said, I don't think it happens.

Response by LTC Gary Earls made Apr 15 at 2019 9:17 PM

LTC Gary Earls — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 21:17:46 -0400

I had a E-6 in my OCS platoon who graduated and was commissioned a Second Lieutenant. He retired as a Major. When I got my commission in November, 1967, I didn't have a college degree and neither did some of my classmates.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2019 10:50 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Apr 2019 22:50:55 -0400

Can happen in the Navy... happens all the time. Given the time in service requirements are there.

Response by SSG David Gordon made Apr 16 at 2019 11:31 PM

SSG David Gordon — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 23:31:06 -0400

Yes, they should.
0-1? Absolutely.
We can discuss progression from there.
I'm sorry, but those folks above 0-1 here should check their ego at the door when it comes to strategic discussions. Is everyone here above 0-1 the equal of those historic leaders they Studied to receive their commissions? Those historic leaders who, arguably, had far less of an education than they take such pride in?
I understand the argument being made concerning broadening one's horizons and scope of thought, but aside from studying what mistakes Not to make, nothing being expounded upon supports a substitute for experience.
Most senior NCO's Have degrees. Not something I find terribly important, but mysteriously missing from the discussion.
And no, not every senior NCO would make a good officer, that's obvious.
But, following the original question, yes, a senior E7 should make a perfectly acceptable 0-1, provided that's what they're interested in being and a position they're willing to adapt to.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Apr 17 at 2019 12:11 AM

1SG James Kelly — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 00:11:28 -0400

An E7 or E6 can be a Plt Ldr (been there done that) a 2lt can never make it as a Plt Sgt, has enough trouble trying to be a TC.
But that's just me.
1SG 19Z5MHC5D8 Master Gunner, Master Gunner Instructor, Turret Mechanic Instructor, 3X TAFT Team.

Response by LTC Michael Parker made Apr 17 at 2019 7:41 AM

LTC Michael Parker — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 07:41:44 -0400

Why not? I got commissioned without a college degree.

Response by LTC Michael Parker made Apr 17 at 2019 7:44 AM

LTC Michael Parker — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 07:44:29 -0400

Why not? I got commissioned without a college degree. I didn't have anywhere near the experience of an E-7.

Response by SPC Rebecca Provost made Apr 17 at 2019 8:05 AM

SPC Rebecca Provost — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:05:25 -0400

Not reading all the comments there are definately a clear division. A college degree does NOT make you a leader nor does it make you fit to lead. That said being a E7 does not necessrily make you any less educated than one with fancy letters behind your name or a good leader. I had command that I would rather follow in my NCO rank because I "knew" them. Knew that they could be trusted and knew that they could lead (not all but most) but the ONLY officer that if I had to decide to follow them with no doubt in my mind was one that came up thru the enlisted ranks. I never saw the officers in my Battalion even as the Battalion secretary. Never interacted with them to know what they were about. They didnt show uo for PT, we didnt converse about life, they held themselves "above" so if push came to shove could I trust them to make a good decision? If my upper NCO's thought so then yep. If they didnt than nope. I have lots of letters behind my name, had a few less when I went in. Do I make a good leader because of my degree or if I had gone to be an officer? I went enlisted for a reason - I would not. I have supervised over 159 people in a department. Did I enjoy it? No.

Point is you can throw (require) all the schooling you want at someone it doesnt make them better at being a leader- Experience and ability does. No offense but even two days ago I was talking to an officer, and she was in a struggle becsuse her higher ranking officer wanted her to "fudge" on his PT test. She felt she was damned either way. So having a degree does NOT make you a better leader or officer.

That is just my opinion though.

Becca, B.S., MSEd, MBA/GM

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2019 9:03 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:03:12 -0400

Not with the current professional development model. BOLC, SCCC and ILE are designed like college courses and the COE's have focused on making these courses more rigorous. Having at least a general education in a college environment establishes a baseline for students to operate on.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2019 9:07 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:07:35 -0400

I believe that they should not with the current professional development model. Currently the COE's are working to make the BOLC, SCCC and ILE classes more rigorous and they are based on the college classroom environment. Having at least a baseline general education in a college classroom will establish a sufficient baseline for these courses. As well there is a push to acquire graduate degrees prior to/during field grade time. Not having an undergraduate degree would put these NCO's at a disadvantage and throw them off for promotion and their career timeline. Also the NCO corps is making degrees for NCO's much more desirable. Having a degree as an NCO is likely to make you more promotable. Also we do not want to encourage E7's to become O1's we want to encourage them to be E9's.

Response by PO3 Gary Etter made Apr 17 at 2019 8:19 PM

PO3 Gary Etter — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 20:19:55 -0400

someone that worked there way up through the ranks is more deserving and trusted more than an idiot who went to school and has no experience. we put up with it Vietnam and else where.

Response by SFC Francisco Roman made Apr 17 at 2019 10:31 PM

SFC Francisco Roman — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 22:31:58 -0400

There are E7 that have more experience in the field and as well as in the books than some officer's, I'm being very clear an honest about some situations that I had with many New officers that new nothing about the field unless they took a look at their field manual. As for many of us E7 we have second to make a decision,there's no time for a field manual. With all do respect..we are the REAL officers in the Military.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 11:21 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:21:53 -0400

Being completely ignorant of whether there are any specifications for the type of degree required to become an officer, I would argue that many colleges have turned into degree mills, and that no degree at all is better than some of the degrees that are out there.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Apr 18 at 2019 12:24 PM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:24:08 -0400

Two words for ya,
Audie Murphy

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2019 12:22 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:22:51 -0400

I don’t see why not. I’d support it. Honestly I think officers should be required to reach at least E-4/E-5 before becoming an officer anyway. Those straight from college/ROTC officers are garbage more times than not.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2019 8:00 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Apr 2019 20:00:47 -0400

This is not even an argument worth having. During my career there was plenty of opportunities to attend college and get a degree one way or another and I did. It might take longer than 4 years, but it’s doable. So no matter if you are an E1 or E9, if you want to be an officer that bad put in the work for it and if you’re later selected I’m sure your branch of service will be more than happy to give you a commission. I was asked on a couple of occasions to apply for a commission, but my reply was always, I’m a successful and respected Navy Senior Chief why would I go to the bottom of the ladder again.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Apr 21 at 2019 8:44 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Sun, 21 Apr 2019 20:44:36 -0400

A superior E-7/8/9 may not be a good fit at the O-1/2 level. Problem with allowing senior enlisted to jump to O-3 is that it denies all those in the O-2 pipeline a position. Junior officers exist to become future senior officers. The same amount of time for one to become a good E-7/8/9, it takes a similar amount of time for an JO to become an O-5/6. There are a few opportunities for senior enlisted specialist or CWO's to become limited duty O-3. The openings are so few, as to be unplannable for career expectations.
Better option for senior enlisted who want broader leadership roles is to create such roles along side flag officers. CO's have command E-9's. Flag officers should be assigned an enlisted attaché.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2019 12:51 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:51:57 -0400

Yes. As an Army person Drafted in 1963 and with 1 years of College Education, I was asked if I would like to join the Officer Candidate School in Boot Camp. Because it required me to add at least two more years i the Army, I declined. I went on to work in the Infantry Intelligence MOS using Ground to Ground Radar Surveillance. I came out of the Army as an E-5 Sgt, with under 2 years. I know what it takes to become an E-7 and they have many more years of Military experience that a person with just a College degree could ever have, It would be a loss of a great resource if the E-7 wanting to become an Officer were denied the ability to transfer to the Officer's Corp just because they didn't have a college education. Allowing that to happen along with an incentive to work on a College education, once the Transfer to the Officers Corp took place, would be an added benefit to the Military as well as the experienced soldier that was already an E-7. Just some food for thought.
Leo J, Hauguel, CISSP, NSA-IAM Sgt E-5 (1963-1965)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2019 1:19 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:19:45 -0400

YES! Here is the reasoning behind my vote. I was drafted in 1963 and served in the U. S. Army until 1965. I came out of the Military as an Sgt. E-5 (under two years) and worked in Infantry Intelligence, operating Ground to Ground Radar units as well as Training New personnel to my unit.

In boot camp I was offered a move to OCS and didn't accept because it meant I would have to add at least two more years to the Military. At the time I was drafted, I had completed only one year of college and was 22 years old.

If we don't allow an E-7 with many years of experience to move to the Officer Corp, then we are losing a valuable asset to the Military. A college degree only says to an employer, including the Military, that the person holding the degree is capable of learning, and nothing more.

When I was at Ft. Carson Colorado we had field exercises and the Air Force Academy Students were invited ti be observers. What I found is that they were incredibly ignorant of what the Military does when they are in the field for a live simulation. Having said this, something that has not come into the conversation is Common Sense. An E-7 had to have a good work ethic, some common sense, and intelligence to move forward in rank. So why not offer that E-7 the opportunity to go to the Officers Corp?

I know it has been 55 years since I was drafted into the military and a lot of things have changes, but work ethics, common sense and intelligence doesn't.

As an experienced Information Technologist, specializing in Information Security with 40+ years, I know for a fact that a college Degree is not necessarily needed even when trying to get into my field of expertise. I am speaking facts because I saw this happen in my place of employment.

YES, give the E-7 a chance get into the Officers Corp. as a 0-1!

Response by PO1 Thomas Williams made Apr 26 at 2019 8:42 AM

PO1 Thomas Williams — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 08:42:44 -0400

Oh yes that college degree is so important! Hopefully you get the sarcasm here. We had a ensign as a weapons officer when I was in, this weapons officer was from the N.W. and his whole family were part of the logging industry, so he went to a small college and received a degree in Forestry! That helped him in his military service in exactly what way? Absolutely none. The degree requirements are in place for one reason and one reason only IMHO, to separate classes of people, those who can afford to go to college and those who can’t! Those of us who joined to get the GI Bill and then go to college after. Education is now being used more and more often to separate people into classes. Just the same as money is today. This needs to stop!

Response by GySgt William Hardy made May 7 at 2019 8:57 AM

GySgt William Hardy — Tue, 07 May 2019 08:57:09 -0400

Depends on the time. If there is an officer shortage going from enlisted to officer through one of the programs without a college degree can be very useful; however, there should be limitations such as no promotion pass O3. During the Vietnam Era there was the LDO program (Limited Duty Officer). I knew one Marine who was picked up as a SSgt. He was a Captain and my Communications Center OIC. He was transferred overseas. A Year later he returned to the same communications center but now he was a Master Sergeant and the NCOIC. As an LDO, he was also promoted in the enlisted ranks.

If you are talking about a permanent move, then they need a college degree. Many enlisted personnel have obtained degrees and then applied for various programs.

Response by Lt Col Jeff Richey made May 11 at 2019 9:58 PM

Lt Col Jeff Richey — Sat, 11 May 2019 21:58:18 -0400

NO! If they want a commission then get a degree like the rest of us. I had 9 years enlisted before getting a commission.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2019 7:25 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 May 2019 07:25:53 -0400

I have seen officers and enlisted with degrees that I would not have for a foxhole mate. I have also seen those without degrees that I would not have for a foxhole mate. Learning is not all books. There has to be a common sense approach to the issue so that enlisted soldiers above a certain rank with outstanding leadership ability can move into junior officer ranks.

Response by Sgt Todd Dierdorff made May 14 at 2019 8:07 PM

Sgt Todd Dierdorff — Tue, 14 May 2019 20:07:01 -0400

Absolutely! They know sooo much more than rookie lieutenants and many captains.

Response by LCDR William Breyfogle made May 14 at 2019 11:03 PM

LCDR William Breyfogle — Tue, 14 May 2019 23:03:48 -0400

Not sure how to respond, since I'm a Navy LDO (limited duty officer) and was commissioned after I made E-7 with 18 years already in. The regs say a college degree isn't required for LDO, but most of us already have at least a two-year Associate's Degree. One difference between what 1SG proposes and what the Navy and Marines do, is that LDOs are commissioned ONLY to lead within their former enlisted specialty. Thus, as a Navy Chief Photographer's Mate, I became a Combat Camera Team officer. We always say that this program makes for an exceptionally experienced (and possibly highly opinionated) set of junior officers.

Response by 1SG Richard DeBilzan made May 14 at 2019 11:55 PM

1SG Richard DeBilzan — Tue, 14 May 2019 23:55:02 -0400

A college degree is not what makes one a good leader. We’ve all known those with degrees who are not effective leaders, as well as those with GED’s who are exceptional leaders.

Bring in everyone at the same level. Leaders will rise as they always do. Providing of course you can effectively weed out the inflated evaluations and skillcraft accomplishments. Those never meant to lead will not.

I would suggest adding a subordinate evaluator to OERs and NCOERs. If they’ve been a good leader who really looked after Troops not careers it will reflect. Just a retired perspective...

Response by SrA Larry Ingram made May 15 at 2019 9:41 AM

SrA Larry Ingram — Wed, 15 May 2019 09:41:16 -0400

I can remember being in the Army an E7 was commissioned as a warrant officer

Response by MAJ Robert Philpot made May 15 at 2019 11:39 AM

MAJ Robert Philpot — Wed, 15 May 2019 11:39:54 -0400

I've always thought that a soldier should be required to get a recommendation from a Command Sergeant Major before going to OCS. :-) But to answer your question, I would only support the E-7 to commission option if there were some support for continuing higher education post-commissioning.

Response by CPT Anthony Forstner made May 15 at 2019 3:46 PM

CPT Anthony Forstner — Wed, 15 May 2019 15:46:39 -0400

I commissioned as an E7 sand had to finish my degree before I could make Captain. When I commissioned, I had just about 11 years in so I had a lot of career left. I was glad for the opportunity and I think while some may struggle to finish a degree, most will ride to the challenge. Secondly, by there virtue of the amount of writing that needs to be done, a college degree is a must. Many, many NCOs are weak in this area.

Response by 1SG James Jennings made May 15 at 2019 4:24 PM

1SG James Jennings — Wed, 15 May 2019 16:24:07 -0400

I have two degrees and I can attest to the fact that they don’t teach common sense in colleges

Response by SMSgt Tim Shuey made May 15 at 2019 4:36 PM

SMSgt Tim Shuey — Wed, 15 May 2019 16:36:10 -0400

Seems like a waste of a perfectly good NCO, unless they are not a good NCO then whatever.

Response by SMSgt Tim Shuey made May 15 at 2019 4:37 PM

SMSgt Tim Shuey — Wed, 15 May 2019 16:37:03 -0400

Why would you want to start all over as an O1?

Response by SMSgt Francisco Rodriguez Negron made May 15 at 2019 10:44 PM

SMSgt Francisco Rodriguez Negron — Wed, 15 May 2019 22:44:39 -0400

All officers must have a university degree. I prefer that all services move toward a rank structure, like the Navy and Army, where enlisted can move up but as Warrant Officers. Even as Warrant officers, they must have a university degree. That will separate the Senior ranks from the Warrant Officers. In addition, the Senior NCO must have a mandatory associate degree.

Response by SGT George Gallant made May 15 at 2019 11:04 PM

SGT George Gallant — Wed, 15 May 2019 23:04:48 -0400

My time in the Army I have seen many Offices with degrees that were profoundly stupid. If you make it to E7 You are a true leader not one by an act of Congress.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made May 16 at 2019 3:48 AM

SPC Byron Skinner — Thu, 16 May 2019 03:48:16 -0400

Sp4 Byron Skinner… NO! Anybody who obtains the Rank of 07 without a obtaining a College Degree from an accredited institution should be "rif 'ed" out in the first place even before any consideration for a commission even comes up in the discussion.

Response by SGT Kenneth Barr made May 16 at 2019 4:28 AM

SGT Kenneth Barr — Thu, 16 May 2019 04:28:23 -0400

I would review the record of the SFC in question and if the record warrants commissioning then it should be done. A college degree is highly over-rated and is obtainable subsequent to commissioning. The experience and leadership skills acquired by the SFC during their years of service is far more valuable. I'm sure commissioned officers oppose this, see COL Smallfield's response. College degrees are classroom exercises. Real military leadership requires hands on/on the job experience. That's what a commission should represent, not how well someone can parrot what they were told in a classroom.

Response by SSG Gary Farral made May 16 at 2019 7:00 AM

SSG Gary Farral — Thu, 16 May 2019 07:00:30 -0400

I agree. They have by this time accumulated enough military credit hours via correspondent courses and NCO academy. I myself as an E-6 have more than enough credit yours. Plus I have a BSCS and an AAS in Nursing.

Response by Amn Reggie Keene made May 16 at 2019 7:16 AM

Amn Reggie Keene — Thu, 16 May 2019 07:16:16 -0400

College degree sooo. Overated

Response by LTC Patti Palmer made May 16 at 2019 8:09 AM

LTC Patti Palmer — Thu, 16 May 2019 08:09:16 -0400

I fully agree with COL Jason Smallfield.

Response by SFC Terry Bryant made May 16 at 2019 8:42 AM

SFC Terry Bryant — Thu, 16 May 2019 08:42:14 -0400

Absolutely. That being said, the individuals records should have a large bearing on that decision. Is the soldier a good leader, is the Soldier solid enough to go that route to officer land. Should not be just automatic. Perhaps even a board to decide based on a Soldiers qualifications. Because we all know not all E-7's were created equal.

Response by SN Melodie Parola made May 16 at 2019 11:14 AM

SN Melodie Parola — Thu, 16 May 2019 11:14:49 -0400

I believe that experience and recommendations from those in command should play a more important role. As a civilian, college credit is given for experience in military. I think this can be translated to allow for promotional considerations in the military

Response by SPC Kenneth Abbott made May 16 at 2019 11:42 AM

SPC Kenneth Abbott — Thu, 16 May 2019 11:42:58 -0400

Yes they should.They already have the education of being in military!

Response by Sgt Bruce Ayer made May 16 at 2019 1:08 PM

Sgt Bruce Ayer — Thu, 16 May 2019 13:08:33 -0400

As a separated A1C, I found my employees from enlisted ranks were using logic to solve problems faster and just as complex as either the employees with either a PhD in nuclear physics or Masters in Math. Within 23 years I became a Regional Manager with five unit managers reporting to me.
A degree is only proof of additional education not higher learning.

Response by SGT Sherrie Fanning made May 16 at 2019 2:26 PM

SGT Sherrie Fanning — Thu, 16 May 2019 14:26:44 -0400

If it aint broke dont fix it......

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2019 2:38 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 May 2019 14:38:04 -0400

Ive always thought that having school shouldn't increase promotion points or rank or decide anything. Over half of the cadets and the LT that come to our unit I would never want you to deploy with them. And its because their lack of common sense. why in the hell would I want to deploy with a lieutenant that has a degree in human resources and take orders from him on combat when I have a Sergeant First Class that's been in Combat 3 times. I know there's been a customs created in the military that we can't change who said we can't change them these military Customs were made a while ago when people were actually somewhat civil now we got a bunch of people dressed in uniforms bossing around and disrespecting lower enlisted never because they can. And they probably do this because they feel they're entitled to because they went to school and they're an officer will guess what I don't respect anyone that disrespects me for no reason

Response by SN Jim Huntington made May 16 at 2019 4:48 PM

SN Jim Huntington — Thu, 16 May 2019 16:48:45 -0400

Augie Murphy had a 5th Grade Ed- He was 10 years old when he left school Come out LT-

Response by 1LT Timothy Kahn made May 16 at 2019 5:14 PM

1LT Timothy Kahn — Thu, 16 May 2019 17:14:33 -0400

I believe that they should be allowed, but with at least 2 years of college (with either a AA or AS) and be judged on qualifications. Many times, especially in combat, college doesn’t mean squat! Also, in other cases, as in computer systems & Nursing, a new BSN graduate is useless at many times, whereas a RN with an ASN may already have more than 3-4 years experience and ends up having to proctor the new BSN that is their superior (induces a lot of discord), also both have to pass the same national test to do the same damn job!! E-3 to 0-2.

Response by PO3 Robert Dawson made May 16 at 2019 8:49 PM

PO3 Robert Dawson — Thu, 16 May 2019 20:49:21 -0400

I feel that the experience would be equal too or greater than the education of an 0-1 fresh out of college. If the E-7 were recommended by his superior officer, that is saying something also. I respected mustangs a lot more than a green ensign.

Response by PO2 Edward Schiller made May 17 at 2019 12:02 AM

PO2 Edward Schiller — Fri, 17 May 2019 00:02:06 -0400

I had a good friend who made Warrant Officer who retired a LtCmr. he was one Hell of an Officer.

Response by SGT David Honeycutt made May 17 at 2019 1:11 AM

SGT David Honeycutt — Fri, 17 May 2019 01:11:28 -0400

The equivalent rank of an O-1 or O-2 is E-6 so the equivalent rank for an E-7 should be at least an O-3 and with his/her training and experience should be more than adequate for those ranks. Now for promotions to upper ranks there should be a bachelors or masters degree in an applicable discipline of training.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cichelli made May 17 at 2019 8:21 AM

CPT Lawrence Cichelli — Fri, 17 May 2019 08:21:27 -0400

Why not?

Response by Sgt Edward Seay made May 17 at 2019 9:15 AM

Sgt Edward Seay — Fri, 17 May 2019 09:15:12 -0400

Response by TSgt Ted Bakacs made May 17 at 2019 10:12 AM

TSgt Ted Bakacs — Fri, 17 May 2019 10:12:12 -0400

No. It would b prime Peter Principle

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made May 17 at 2019 12:41 PM

LCpl Michael Cappello — Fri, 17 May 2019 12:41:16 -0400

While I was active, it was suggested by several of my officers that I go through MECEP. I would think that other branches of service would have similar "enlisted commissioning" programs. Not to mention the Warrant officer options.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2019 12:01 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 May 2019 00:01:55 -0400

It's ironic. I was an NCO, but I knew my job AND my officers job. It's difficult to generalize such a broad category, NCO or Officer, because there is incompetence and excellence in both. A college degree doesn't make a leader, so by eliminating An entire NCO Corp you are missing out on a depth of knowledge that eludes the typical Offcer.
BTW. The irony is that the 2 answers from officers that I read, both had errors in spelling.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2019 8:54 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 May 2019 08:54:33 -0400

I think a warrant officer would be more fitting AND you don't need a college degree.

Response by Sgt Dennis Stevens made May 18 at 2019 1:14 PM

Sgt Dennis Stevens — Sat, 18 May 2019 13:14:25 -0400

Not as explained. On the same note, should the E-7 have a minimum number of collage credits achieved at time of application with the understanding he has to achieve a minimum number of credits every year until degree is completed, then yes.

Response by CPO Kenneth Laughman made May 18 at 2019 4:53 PM

CPO Kenneth Laughman — Sat, 18 May 2019 16:53:21 -0400

Must be an Army thing. In the Navy, an E6 can apply for the Limited Duty Officer (LDO) without a degree. E7 through E9 can apply for either the LDO or CWO program, again, without a degree.

The assignments these LDOs and CWOs have are morr hands-on than a regular officer, but LDOs have been assigned at all levels, including Commanding Officer of major bases. All depends in their Officer Fitnes Reports, and prior assignments. LDOs can attain rank up to and including 06. Most though retire at 04 or 05.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2019 5:14 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 May 2019 17:14:21 -0400

So what I am seeing is kind of almost representative voting scenario. Dems and GOPs but in this case Officers vs Enlisted. They argue down the Party lines. Officers dont want to allow it, Enlisted do. Hmmmm.

Response by PO1 Donald Vinson made May 19 at 2019 1:51 PM

PO1 Donald Vinson — Sun, 19 May 2019 13:51:03 -0400

I would believe that it would be a mistake, but then again if he/she is currently enrolled in college maybe have a sponsorship by another officer. They "WILL NOT" be paid officer pay until they complete school and attend basic OCS. Just my thought and you may agree or disagree.

Response by SPC William Wells made May 19 at 2019 6:54 PM

SPC William Wells — Sun, 19 May 2019 18:54:26 -0400

Yes, because they actually know more than most officers.

Response by PO3 Ronald Rogers made May 19 at 2019 7:40 PM

PO3 Ronald Rogers — Sun, 19 May 2019 19:40:26 -0400

I would have to say YES. I have a BS degree & have known many people without degrees, for a variety of reasons, that did not. Some of these people were extremely intelligent & should have a chance to advance!

Response by Sgt Chris Fisher made May 20 at 2019 10:05 AM

Sgt Chris Fisher — Mon, 20 May 2019 10:05:20 -0400

I may have a different take on this compared to some. I strongly believe that ALL officers should have enlisted experience. Everyone should start out as a private, and only the best get commissioned as an officer. I have known a lot of great officers and I have known some that were substandard, but every Mustang I served with was outstanding, no losers. I think having enlisted experience makes for a better all around officer corps.

Response by CPL Peter King made May 20 at 2019 4:26 PM

CPL Peter King — Mon, 20 May 2019 16:26:16 -0400

In the British Army there are what is known as “Ranker Captain’s” These are positions reserved exclusively for enlisted men to become officers(Captain) There are normally 2-3 such positions in a Battalion/Regiment.

A ranker captain is limited to the rank of captain, in fact most are Major’s.

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made May 20 at 2019 5:11 PM

Cpl Bernard Bates — Mon, 20 May 2019 17:11:35 -0400

I tell you this. if we ever have a war with a high casualty rate I don't think it will make a difference weather you have a college degree or not. When the military cant get enough personell to fill leadership slots in a unit, it will be next man up. that's why they had battlefield commissions. That happened in Vietnam, Korea, WWII, and WWI. I know because I was offered 2nd Lt. battlefield commission. I was a SP/5 with 4yrs in the Marine corp, NCO academy and CBR school. Due to the high number of draftees their wasn't enough experienced personell to go around. It was always next man up. From company armorer to supply clerk then supply sgt. and offered 2nd Lt. which I turned down because I had only been married 8 months and I would have had to stay in Vietnam another year. I came home got discharged got a job that paid a lot better than the military . I had spent 7yrs in the MC.& army all together. Semper Fi.

Response by Cpl Gordon Robinson made May 22 at 2019 11:09 PM

Cpl Gordon Robinson — Wed, 22 May 2019 23:09:27 -0400

Yes, they earned that right

Response by MSgt Roger Lalik made May 23 at 2019 4:02 PM

MSgt Roger Lalik — Thu, 23 May 2019 16:02:48 -0400

Old saying goes - "There are those that command and there are those that make things happen."

Response by SSG Mark Metzler made May 25 at 2019 1:26 AM

SSG Mark Metzler — Sat, 25 May 2019 01:26:15 -0400

Nope, Warrant officer, MAYBE, BUT, not an officer. The education is the important part, officers do so much more high end thinking. An NCO to be an officer needs a 4 yr degree.

Response by PO2 Jerome Fischer made Jun 6 at 2019 11:10 AM

PO2 Jerome Fischer — Thu, 06 Jun 2019 11:10:33 -0400

Absolutely if the candidate is qualified to serve as a leader at the level required and have the potential of promotion up the ranks.

Response by SFC Siva Williams made Jun 22 at 2019 7:08 AM

SFC Siva Williams — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 07:08:51 -0400

E-7s are allowed to become commissioned officers without a college degree. This is coming from the medical side of the house. We all know that the Army is chronically short medical professionals in the doctor and nursing fields. One program that has been around since Vietnam is the Army Physician Assistant Program. The pipeline for this program is open to all but has historically funneled medics and other medical enlisted through the pipeline. Promotions have been quite good for medical Soldiers so it is possible to see SFCs with less than 12 years of service applying for PA school. The prerequisites for the course call for 60 semester hours of science and core courses. The Soldier will earn a Bachelors and/or Masters at the completion of the course. There's also a program for enlisted Soldiers to become registered nurses through the Green to Gold pipeline. The trick with the Green to Gold is the less than 10 years acitive federal service at the time of commission. There are plenty of SFCs in the ranks that made it to the SNCO level in less than 10 years. Part of their success was the requirement to have an Associates degree as a baseline for promotion. Many have completed or are well on their way to Bachelor degrees. This fact makes it feasible for them to complete their degrees as a full time student and earn their commission. So it is possible to join the commissioned officer ranks as an E-7 without a degree. What needs to be focused on is the fact that you will have to progress in a timely fashion do that you can retire as an officer. Otherwise you will end up retiring as your highest enlisted rank. This is one of the reasons that the Army stipulates commissioning before you hit that 10 years AFS mark. We overlook this aspect of this career decision.

https://recruiting.army.mil/armypa/

Army Physician Assistant

The official website for the Army Recruiting Command (USAREC)

Response by CW3 Roger Schaetzel made Jun 27 at 2019 9:33 AM

CW3 Roger Schaetzel — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 09:33:55 -0400

No. If you are an E-7, you have had plenty of opportunity to get a degree. You only need an Associate's degree to get into OCS. You are then given a certain amount of time to get you Bachelor's degree.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2019 5:50 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:50:49 -0400

Why not? I would trust an well trained, knowledgeable NCO of any rank over an educated idiot anytime. By the way, I am prior enlisted who received an commission via ROTC. A commission via one of the military academies does not ensure that the officer has the knowledge, or integrity to lead or stand up for what is right. Experience and integrity should be THE main factors, not getting a ticket punched.

Response by LCpl Steve Zupan made Jul 10 at 2019 8:38 PM

LCpl Steve Zupan — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:38:06 -0400

Why? Is an E-7 to dumb to achieve a college degree!

Response by CWO4 Robert Kuebler made Jul 16 at 2019 9:22 AM

CWO4 Robert Kuebler — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 09:22:55 -0400

Mustang's! By the time you reach E7 in any service, you have completed many service schools some, at the college level. Additionally, the hands on experience and people skills you've earned are immeasurable and any command will benefit with this tool in place via a Mustang. I've met Mustangs at the O6 level that were the best fit for the job they lead, and I've met Academy and other Commissions that were dumb as a rock. "GOOD PEOPLE" is the key. If an E7 can meet O1 standards, then they have a proven track record, which is something theres no guarantee of at an otherwise JO level. Respectfully, CWO4 Retired, USCG.

Response by SFC Jose A Hernandez made Jul 19 at 2019 4:31 AM

SFC Jose A Hernandez — Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:31:22 -0400

Not trying to be disrespectful or offensive to any of the ranks, but, I probably will. AND pardon my "ignorance," but, what does a "piece of paper" that claims one to have a BS, AA, or anything else gonna do out on the field of combat? Do you really think that because you have a Bull S..t (BS) degree the enemy is gonna put you in a super suite in a hotel if you become a POW or are you gonna shove that piece of s..t on the enemy's face for a better treatment? That piece of paper will not hold water in the field, some of you ROTC's and West Pointers were worthless in Nam, specially the "butter bars," making us to "spit-shine" our combat boots (jungle boots) and sometimes ordering us to "break starch" out in the field after coming back from a two/three days maybe a week out on a mission. A PVT to an SFC and maybe a MSG without a degree would have more combat leadership experience than any of you ROTC's, West Pointers in the rear with the phone stuck to your ear taking fake intelligence info with regards to the enemy positions. Now, to answer the question should an SFC be promoted to 0-1, maybe, but, why bypass the other Senior NCO's, again, is it because of the "Field Experience?" How about to a Warrant Officer which to me would be the stepping stone. Like the old NCO's didn't like to be addressed as "Sir's" "WE" worked for our living (Promotions) doncha call me Sir!!! WE NCO's were "field smarts." There were some NCO's that were "Field Promoted," as well as some "Butter Bars" demoted and their butter bars given to NCO's as field promotions based on their knowledge and after actions. Nowadays SFC's are much too young and immature that lack responsibility to be promoted. So the answer is NO!!!

Response by LCDR Thomas Doherty (USNR-R Ret) made Jul 26 at 2019 3:31 PM

LCDR Thomas Doherty (USNR-R Ret) — Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:31:15 -0400

The Navy, in its superior wisdom, has a path for direct commission for select petty officers and chiefs - the Limited Duty Officer program.
Some transfer from Limited Duty to unrestricted line warfare and go on to command ships and squadrons.
The whole officer / warrant/ enlisted distinction is antiquated and needs to be reconfigured.
Also, a college degree ain't all that. There are many officers whose general knowledge is wanting.
Let people advance according to their abilities without the need for phony credentials.

Response by PFC Bobby Smith made Jul 28 at 2019 4:06 PM

PFC Bobby Smith — Sun, 28 Jul 2019 16:06:10 -0400

yes, some have enough brains I have seen people with degrees that where not as smart

Response by 1SG Todd Sullivan made Aug 7 at 2019 11:43 AM

1SG Todd Sullivan — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 11:43:30 -0400

95% of me says absolutely, the other 5% says I have seen some real tools that were E-7 and above and would have sucked as Officers, I was asked several times and given several letters of recommendation to go to OCS, I chose not to go because I didn’t want to take the time out to finish college.. I have seen some real horrible officers come out of OCS that were E-6/7 one in particular came from the 82nd to our company in 3/187 he was relieved and his career was over in about 18 months.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Aug 7 at 2019 1:30 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 13:30:11 -0400

E-7 to 0-1? Why would anyone take such a demotion

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 7 at 2019 4:27 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:27:06 -0400

It depends how badly the war is going.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Aug 7 at 2019 4:39 PM

SFC Collin McMillion — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:39:03 -0400

There are points that I agree with in each comment, but also points I disagree with. I'm sorry Col Smallfield, but I served with officers who degrees had to be in "advanced basket weaving or high speed yoyo operation", while I also have served with SNCO's who when push came to shove, were asked by officers what actions to take. Specific degrees may possibly be a major plus, but I have worked with plenty of officers who either needed a map or a guide just to cross a street. My intention is not to belittle anyone, but to suggest there should be ways to promote the best qualified personal to command.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Aug 7 at 2019 4:40 PM

SFC Collin McMillion — Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:40:12 -0400

I have two Bachelors Degrees, never wanted to be an officer!!!

Response by MSgt Bill Judge made Aug 8 at 2019 7:36 AM

MSgt Bill Judge — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 07:36:42 -0400

If the man or woman is an exceptional leader and sponsored by the command the answer is yes. In Vietnam Nam some of the best officers were prior enlisted who knew how to keep you alive.

Response by MSG Randy Rucker made Aug 10 at 2019 1:30 PM

MSG Randy Rucker — Sat, 10 Aug 2019 13:30:13 -0400

Response by LTC Warren Miller made Aug 10 at 2019 7:37 PM

LTC Warren Miller — Sat, 10 Aug 2019 19:37:49 -0400

E7 to O1? Isn’t that a pay cut? Unless the SFC has little shot at E8 and plans to stick around until his CPT bars are getting rusty, I question the move on the basis of pay and retirement benefits.

Response by MSG Randy Rucker made Aug 11 at 2019 1:53 PM

MSG Randy Rucker — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 13:53:21 -0400

I am a nco, nobody is more professional than me. Competency is my watchword, officers of my unit will not have to do my job because they simply can't. I am a leader of soldiers, trainer of young 2lTs and there careers depend on me, why would I want a cut in pay...

Response by SPC Ron Salsbury made Aug 24 at 2019 11:32 AM

SPC Ron Salsbury — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 11:32:33 -0400

After reading some of the posted statements, I find the following answers are mostly officers who have collegiate degree's of varying levels of education. Most are correct to assume that college does give you the ability to learn to critically think provided the higher learning institution follows Bloom's Taxonomy without bias or political motivation. I have taught at the collegiate level and find that this is a very common practice, and with the latest generation being turned out, I would hands down take any NCO to lead the pack any day. I remember two old sayings back when I was a young troop, the old salty Drill Sergeant's would say; if you have a good officer that cares about his men and leads well, 9 times out of ten he was enlisted first. Second, if any of your officers get shot, do not worry, because in the Army, the NCO's run the Unit anyway. This has been historically true and demonstrated in many wars in the past; so I ask any NCO why would want to be an officer when you have your enlisted men's respect already, is it the money or the prestige you are searching for?

Response by PO3 Robert Laity made Aug 31 at 2019 6:30 AM

PO3 Robert Laity — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 06:30:09 -0400

I was a Navy Hospital Corpsman in Vietnam. When I was discharged I went to College. My "A" and "C" School studies were accepted as credit towards my degree. There is a college in New York called Excelsior that collaborates with the Military in helping active duty personnel and veterans get Associate, Bachelors and Masters degrees. It can be accomplished without ever setting foot in a brick and mortar classroom. I was awarded (30) credits in Psychology after taking ONE (3) hour examination. One can easily obtain one of these degrees while on active duty. Consult with your education officer. This college is a private college in Albany, NY which was formerly the Regents External Degree Program., Regent's College.,The University of New York State. It is now called Excelsior college and is FULLY accredited. If you want to get a degree. This is the route to get it.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Sep 8 at 2019 9:17 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Sun, 08 Sep 2019 21:17:34 -0400

Personally I think that would do the officer corps a huge disservice.

We all know plenty of highly qualified E-7s who would excel at this.

We all know plenty that are complete tools who are enough of a risk to general safety and moral without being upgraded to an Officer.

This is why we have Warrant Officers. A place where qualified leaders can excel and has a verifiably effective screening process. I’ve met plenty of garbage SNCOs but honestly I can count on one hand the amount of trash warrant officers I’ve encountered. Plenty of angry ones but even the mean ones were able to accomplish their mission in an excellent manner.

I think it’s a bad idea unless you want to open up some billets and MOS’s to Warrant Officers. I think you would see more success going that route.

Response by SSgt Alfredo Kirton made Sep 12 at 2019 4:31 PM

SSgt Alfredo Kirton — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 16:31:07 -0400

In my era an E-7 had at the very minimum of 7 years of service. If the he hadn't achieve a degree by that time or at least in the process,
it may show a lack of motivation. what would motivate him by then to get a degree?

Response by PO3 David Mondello made Sep 24 at 2019 12:35 PM

PO3 David Mondello — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 12:35:58 -0400

Just because you have a college "degree" doesn't make you smarter or a "deeper thinker"

Response by LCDR Robert Russnogle made Sep 25 at 2019 3:33 PM

LCDR Robert Russnogle — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 15:33:06 -0400

I did, as an HM1 to Ensign, MSC, USN. I later got my Master's degree but I was initially selected to MSC without a degree

Response by SFC Domingo M. made Sep 25 at 2019 10:48 PM

SFC Domingo M. — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 22:48:11 -0400

The only time I've heard of something like this is in Battle Field Commissions. Outside of that, seems like the degree has always been a requirement. I took the Commissioned officer's correspondence course but about 3/4 of the way through I just lost interest in ever crossing over and never completed it. I really liked being an E-7.

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Sep 26 at 2019 9:13 AM

LTC Ken Connolly — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 09:13:17 -0400

At times in our military history, battle field commissions have a been granted without regard for a college degree. An E-7 can become a Warrant Officer without a college degree. College degree in itself does not make the officer. I do not see why a Platoon Sgt. would not make a good commissioned officer. This would have to be evaluated on an individual basis and there is more to applying for a direct commission than a college degree.

Response by SSG Thomas Monds made Sep 26 at 2019 12:42 PM

SSG Thomas Monds — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 12:42:02 -0400

Well they would make better LT's they should complete a college degree. Unless they are trying for the hire retirement pay and playing the system then Hell NO

Response by Sgt Arthur Went made Sep 26 at 2019 3:30 PM

Sgt Arthur Went — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:30:21 -0400

Pros, I think it would be great! They worked through the ranks and gained valuable experience to lead but the Cons Ivfeel it would cause a problem with filling Sr. Enlisted Ranks possibly.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Sep 26 at 2019 3:33 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:33:09 -0400

Yes. It is called the Warrant Officer program.

Response by MAJ Richard Cheek made Sep 26 at 2019 6:23 PM

MAJ Richard Cheek — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:23:42 -0400

Interesting discussion. When I was private in basic I was selected for OCS (1970) during infantry Ait i was told I was not going. No degree. I got sent to shake and bake instead came out an E5 sgt. I went about my career. Took college courses when I could. Got 2 years done applied for OCS. Nope not a graduate. So I went about my business. One day there was an article in army times. Asking NCOs with combat experience to apply for a direct commission in the IRR. I did and got it. Not active duty but I held A commission as a 1LT. Made E7 6 months later. Took over for major for year. The army realizing it had let too many combat arms captains out after Vietnam. Long story short the div commander recommended me for active duty. Went
Straight to IAOC honor grad, after 2 years got recommended for degree completion. Commanded them made major commanded again for 2 short wars. Then retired. And that friends is called a boat load of luck.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Sep 26 at 2019 8:25 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 20:25:52 -0400

Depends on your MOS. You would never make major without a degree. When I was at Fort Ord 1978-1982 I lived with a united first class stew. We were the same age. She was from Maryland. Sandy was hot. Her ex boyfriend was a OCS grad and Special Forces. He had been to Nam 3 times. The army kept telling him that they would sent him to college to get his degree. He got 30K and booted out at 17 years and 9 months. I recommend you get to 20 and get out.

Response by LCDR Robert S. made Sep 26 at 2019 9:39 PM

LCDR Robert S. — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 21:39:28 -0400

It's interesting to see how many people are saying "No, because a college degree is required." The question most of them don't seem to have considered is whether a college degree is required because it's necessary to be a good officer, or if it's necessary to get a college degree because it's a requirement to become an officer.

In my time as both enlisted and officer in the Navy, I've run into quite a few LDOs. A bunch of them had degrees and a bunch didn't. And the only good way of telling which had degrees and which didn't was to look at their official biography and note whether it mentioned where they studied. In fact, it the only sure way to tell which officers were LDOs and which weren't was by looking at their ribbons - LDOs generally had at least a couple of Good Conducts, whereas most Academy/ROTC/OCS folks didn't have any - the officers you ran into with one Good Conduct were probably prior enlisted who got their commission via the Academy, ROTC or OCS after getting a degree, except for the rare hot-runner who got selected for LDO before they hit the 8 year mark (although now that Good Conducts are for 3 years, one would have to guess about someone with a pair of them).

Response by TSgt Joe C. made Sep 27 at 2019 12:42 AM

TSgt Joe C. — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 00:42:27 -0400

BLUF: Hell no!

Response by SSgt Dee O'Connor made Sep 27 at 2019 2:11 AM

SSgt Dee O'Connor — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 02:11:08 -0400

I feel it should be based on his expertise in the field, people relations, leadership ability.

Response by CPT Daniel Cox made Sep 27 at 2019 2:48 AM

CPT Daniel Cox — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 02:48:49 -0400

I think if you check the regs, it states you need two years of college, not a college degree to go to OCS in the Army. If you are asking if an E-7 should be able to by-pass OCS, then my answer is a HARD no. You need to learn the differences between the responsibilities of a commissioned and non-commissioned officer. I know battlefield commissions were once given to enlisted soldiers that had proven themselves, though it was relatively rare.
I felt my enlisted service made me a better officer and felt that most of my West Point and ROTC classmates would have benefited from serving as an enlisted soldier.

Response by SFC Michael D. made Sep 27 at 2019 8:25 AM

SFC Michael D. — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 08:25:49 -0400

A lot of our job postings say degree prefered but experience can substitute for education. I believe that, unless you're ate up, you already have the experience. I personally know nurses who have never started an IV, intubated, started a chest tube. They are Officers and I was a Flight Medic. In my capacity now, my coworkers would rather call me to fix their computer rather than IT. Much respect to you who have a degree. You went through years to get it. Us NCO's have been "hands on" since day one. By the time we reach E7, we damn near know it all as it pertains to our job. I know how to save a life and how to take one. And can do it a site better than most officers. No disrespect intended.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Sep 28 at 2019 1:38 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Sat, 28 Sep 2019 13:38:57 -0400

I think it would work in certain situations, especially highly technical areas. My former father in law was an Navy LDO, specifically a P3 reconnaissance flight officer. Went from wearing a chief's uniform one day to an Ensign's the next. In that context it made sense. Went from being a small unit Chief to a small unit Officer.
In the less technical areas NCOs grow into middle management. Areas where young officers would not have the experience and wisdom to manage effectively without the insight of a seasoned NCO to advise him.
I think you might be looking at a very specific example. Care to share?

Response by Cpl Bill Lee made Sep 29 at 2019 7:29 AM

Cpl Bill Lee — Sun, 29 Sep 2019 07:29:35 -0400

Wouldn't give you a pinch of puppy poop for most colleges or their products. Anyone who is all about college is likely an elitist, a bureaucrat and predisposed to standardized tests and quotas.

Response by SN Richard Maxwell made Oct 6 at 2019 4:58 PM

SN Richard Maxwell — Sun, 06 Oct 2019 16:58:28 -0400

i feel that one has to have a college degree in order to be an officer. they learn from professors a set of ethics which is mandatory in order to be a leader. than pass it on to his or her subordinates. my executive officer went to college for electronics engineering and than applied for ocs and got in with flying colors in the us coast guard.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2019 10:42 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 10:42:39 -0400

Simply put . Yes. the officers I have the most respect for are the "Mustangs".

Response by Eric Lund made Nov 2 at 2019 5:59 PM

Eric Lund — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 17:59:25 -0400

I think there is and has always been a level of detachment between the officers and enlisted personnel. Most officers are not grunts that worked their way up through the ranks. They are ROTC grads. This presents a problem in the field during attrition warfare like Vietnam and ww1. Even ww2 lasted long enough with enough casualties that the number of field promotions was very high and all the NCO's were battle hardened. Then you throw in second lieutenant Tweedle Dee with his ROTC Commission trying to lead these troops who really do know at all when it comes to combat because they've lived it. And as an NCO they have experience Leading troops at least on a tactical level. Now it is never a good idea to poach your NCO's as I believe they are more vital than officers to a smooth-running unit. But an officer that was a combat veteran NCO I believe is a better quality officer then a Westpoint schlep. Also the amount of training and experience it takes to become an NCO should qualify you for a degree in your MOS and you should be able to test out of any core classes not included in your training.

Response by CPT Samuel Carlson made Nov 6 at 2019 1:33 PM

CPT Samuel Carlson — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:33:39 -0500

I am forced to say YES regarding a Sr NCO not having a college degree when defecting to the commissioned ranks. That is what happened to me. I was a Sr NCO when I received a direct commission in the USAR. I did, however, have to bust my buns to complete my BS degree as soon as I could... and did. I became "Dual Component"... Active duty Sr NCO and a USAR Officer. When recalled out of retirement, it was as a Captain. I Served 2 years in CONUS and 2 years in Afghanistan and retired again...… this time as a Captain. I maxed out the 03E retired pay since all my time on the retired list counted for pay purposes.

Response by SSG Jeffery Payne made Nov 10 at 2019 12:57 AM

SSG Jeffery Payne — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 00:57:06 -0500

I trained a lot of 2nd Lt. and some 1st Lt. On being a motor officer at company level and Batt. Maint. level . If ever get one from West Point they are smart, well trained and pretty much know what they are doing. I'll take a West Pointer anytime.

Response by PO1 Richard Norton made Nov 18 at 2019 2:30 PM

PO1 Richard Norton — Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:30:58 -0500

I don't know about the other serves, the navy has an LDO (Limited Duty Officer) program that allows senior NCOs to become officers.

Response by FN Steve Heglmeier made Dec 5 at 2019 12:14 PM

FN Steve Heglmeier — Thu, 05 Dec 2019 12:14:40 -0500

Yes, you're going into battle, who would you prefer lead you; an O-1 or an E-7? The O-1 has the degree. But as we've completed our college degree and survived for some time in the real world; One quickly learns that the degree only proves one has followed through to complete one task, while the E-7 who has skipped the college task, has created a record of completing real life tasks. I know many with degrees who believe that entitles them and have stopped learning, while those voracious readers and assemelators of life's lessons excel at whatever they set their mind to accomplish. ie. Bill Gates, Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, etc.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2019 12:30 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Dec 2019 12:30:52 -0500

Although many would think that the SFC might not do well because of lack of the paper degree, I know many NCOs that run circles around field grade officers in the way of tactical knowledge. Staff work and MDMP are easily learned (Battle Staff) and the fact that the NCO has the tactical know-how, makes him more of an assets during the commander’s decision making process and COA development. As a CSM, the thought of automatically transitioning our senior NCOs to officers does not sit well with me. NCOs are the back bone of ALL missions and the lost of this knowledge at that level undermines our NCO strategic leadership network. These senior NCOs receive the mission, determine required and implied tasks, train the team, resource the event, uphold the standards and retrain or make the necessary adjustments to achieve the commander’s vision. It takes years for us the develop our NCO leaders to be confident, free thinkers at the (SSG) squad level. By time they are SFC, I expect them to run their platoon with the 2LT’s oversight. Notice how I said that. The officer is the paper pusher but the NCO is the law. No one disobeys the LT because they don’t want to cross the SFC. Nowadays, enlisted Soldiers have just as much or more education than their officer counterparts, so if they desire to go this route they must meet the same minimum requirements as all applicants. Programs such as the CG hip pocket scholarship are geared at enticing NCOs to the officer ranks, but the final decision to go to the “dark side” should be that of the NCO and their family.

Response by 1stSgt Ani Stubbs made Dec 12 at 2019 12:51 PM

1stSgt Ani Stubbs — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:51:25 -0500

No, but the Warrant Officer corp is admirable in their abilities and leadership

Response by CPO Mike Riley made Dec 12 at 2019 1:55 PM

CPO Mike Riley — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 13:55:08 -0500

Absolutely! The level of true intellectual education most colleges give is abysmal! An E-7 almost always has a better grasp of life skills, leadership, military knowledge and technical acumen than most O-1 and O-2's. I can't even remember seeing a "Mustang" who wasn't totally squared away. The military needs to evolve with the modern warfighters and promote those who have proven themselves into billets available.

Response by SFC Charles E Hightower made Dec 15 at 2019 2:36 AM

SFC Charles E Hightower — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 02:36:28 -0500

No, Office should have a College Degree. I was SFC\E-7 I don't go after I Retire from the Army.

Response by SFC Bill Snyder made Dec 16 at 2019 6:09 AM

SFC Bill Snyder — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:09:37 -0500

Well, I don't know about E-7 to Officer, but I knew a E-9 who took a wO1 promotion. Never could figure out why. Must o been something in the water in germany.

Response by SN Richard Maxwell made Apr 20 at 2020 1:59 PM

SN Richard Maxwell — Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:59:26 -0400

yes if the nco is an e9 and goes the warrant officer route. if the person is an e7 they should have to go to college to learn a higher level of ethics and responsibility in order to advance to become a commissioned officer. (at least a bachelors degree and nothing below it) also, there intellectual mind is heightened when they take higher level core curriculum courses that pertain to there specialty. they will be able to make better quick decisions on the battle field or in the office.

Response by SFC Edna Madison made Jul 24 at 2020 12:46 AM

SFC Edna Madison — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 00:46:23 -0400

I made E-7 after I completed my associate level courses. If that person has consistently worked toward achieving the degree and have been attending night classes for some period of time, 4 to 5 years working toward that degree possibly. If attending full-time school and no restrictions related to family or health, the person should be encouraged to complete the degree as an incentive for the promotion. Anyone attending night school should also be encouraged to complete a 4 year college degree or higher as an incentive for the promotion. We need people that can stand up to challenges for our military. It is no small task to make decisions that are based on sound documentation and judgement and those individuals must be put to the test of what is reality. Life is not all fun and games and the mind must be in a development, thinking, weighing different situations out and aware of varying situations so they are ready to accept and respond to demands quickly and with confidence.

Response by Robert Bird made Jun 22 at 2023 10:34 AM

Robert Bird — Thu, 22 Jun 2023 10:34:55 -0400

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2023 5:18 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 Jun 2023 17:18:47 -0400

I will just leave this here.... I was a prior E6 and a W2. I went from 1LT to WO1 because the post 9/11 OPTEMPO made finishing college extremely difficult, plus I commissioned Infantry and then branch transferred to Aviation to fly helicopters just prior to making 1LT. After I received my useless online BS in Liberal Arts, I was reappointed to 1LT and made CPT shortly thereafter. I was a 1LT / CW2 for 12 years before Finally making CPT..... I got crappy grades in High School and dropped out of college after my first year in 1992, enlisted in the NG for the "free college".... I have been serving now for 28 years, Senior Army Aviator rated in the UH-1H, OH-58, UH-60A/L/M, held KD assignments (XO, S-3, O4 level command) my entire time as a MAJ and will pin LTC here as soon as my FEDREC shows up.... I am boring you with all of this to prove a point.... I am a compassionate leader who has been extremely successful in my career. College did absolutely nothing to prepare me to be a military leader. College was an obstacle... Just my 2 cents... Maybe an argument can be made that I could have been much better with a "real" degree.... But it's sure been fun as hell! hahaha