Do you think the number 22 helps or hurts suicide awareness in the military community?

2016-06-05T16:16:42-04:00

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jun 5 at 2016 4:21 PM

2016-06-05T16:21:49-04:00

I only recently learned that the vast majority of veteran suicides are attributable to Vietnam War vets. However, the whole PR effort to create awareness (tied to the number "22") has caused people to think that recent veterans of the Gulf War and Afghanistan are somehow defective and some employers are loathe to hire them. If this is not true, please let me know. If true, then it is time to have a discussion as to how this situation can be remedied.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jun 5 at 2016 4:36 PM

2016-06-05T16:36:28-04:00

IMO it hurts the military veteran community more than it helps

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2016 4:41 PM

2016-06-05T16:41:00-04:00

My opinion is that any attention on the issue is "good attention". I understand the negative stigma the campaign brings to veterans, but am willing to carry the stigma if it focuses more attention/resources on mental healthcare for combat veterans.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Jun 5 at 2016 4:41 PM

2016-06-05T16:41:20-04:00

It helps me, but I wonder how it can help them.

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made Jun 5 at 2016 4:43 PM

2016-06-05T16:43:42-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member it is a major help, last year I used it as a beginning point on a 15-minute speech I gave in a freshman Speech class and by the time I had concluded the audience was breathing, gasping, and tearing up in cadence.
They were horrified when the numbers from "accidental" overdose, and driving off of roadways or into things were added. I was tearing up when i spoke my last words,"With these final categories added I fear that the number of Veteran suicides is at least double and could possibly triple 22 a day.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2016 5:07 PM

2016-06-05T17:07:35-04:00

I have personal knowledge of 2. Neither was the result of the vets military service.

The statistic is pretty much meaningless unless one has a casual relationship. Are some connected to the time in the military? Of course.

But, understand none of us ever truly know the cause of a suicide. The only person who knows no longer talks.

Response by CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols made Jun 5 at 2016 5:18 PM

2016-06-05T17:18:39-04:00

First, the number 22 is very watered down. Less than half the states report veteran suicide. That said insiders of the health industry say the number is closer to 34 or about every 1.42 minutess. The inside number of suicides in America is about 1 every 1.38 minutes and that too is watered down for political reasons. Edited because cell phone put wrong words here. Sorry for confusion.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 5 at 2016 6:32 PM

2016-06-05T18:32:14-04:00

It's "statistically vague."

It doesn't say anything and is designed to evoke an emotional response without providing meaningful data. When I first heard it, my questions were:

1) How does that compare to the population at large? Lesser, Greater, Same?
2) Is this across all Eras of service? (it isn't, and further research shows many are "end of life" from Vietnam Era)
3) What is an "acceptable number?" It's great to say we are going to eliminate veteran suicide, but that's also an unrealistic goal, and unrealistic goals don't get accomplished. Therefore we REDUCE the number. However, when we change the verbiage... that implies some number is reasonable.

All this said, the number doesn't help. It's emotional, not logical. Emotional arguments are great for gaining awareness, but this one hides behind seemingly objective facts which allows it to be torn down further diluting its impact.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2016 6:50 PM

2016-06-05T18:50:19-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Ma'am, anything that we can do to help fellow brothers and sisters in pain, is a positive step.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/01/16811249-22-veterans-commit-suicide-each-day-va-report

22 veterans commit suicide each day: VA report

An estimated 22 veterans committed suicide in America each day in 2010, according to a report released Friday by the U.S Department of Veterans Affairs.That rate has edged higher from 1999 when an estimated 20 veterans took their lives every day, the rep

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jun 6 at 2016 12:20 AM

2016-06-06T00:20:03-04:00

I think the number 22 which has been bandied around for so long hurts suicide awareness among veterans by numbing the minds of those who hear the same figure over and over CPT Private RallyPoint Member The biggest drawback is that when people keeping throwing out the number 22 it implies that no efforts are making any difference so why bother.
Thanks for mentioning me LTC Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SGT David T. made Jun 6 at 2016 7:48 AM

2016-06-06T07:48:42-04:00

Both. On one hand it raises awareness. On the other that is the label we get. I don't know how many times someone has asked me if I was ok and the other questions on the suicide awareness card simply because I was having a bad day. I wish there was a better way to approach this so that people don't label and worry that every last vet is going to opt out.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2016 8:48 AM

2016-06-06T08:48:20-04:00

I lost my best friend to veteran suicide. I also lost a coworker to the same thing. I don't think the number 22 effects suicide awareness positively or negatively. I think 22 is just a number at this point and does not draw attention to the real issues at hand. There was such a stigma for many years about depression and suicidal ideations making you weak, then leadership made the attempt to be supportive and inform their soldiers that there was help out there for them. Now that we are in a draw down, the stigma is back because soldiers do not want to be discharged for something that they may/ may not be able to control. I think that the annual suicide awareness brief that the army mandates is extremely dull and therefore no one takes it seriously. Suicide rates in the military are extremely high and it should be taken much more seriously than it actually is. As for the veterans of previous wars, the stigma is still there for them, because the military did not offer them any type of treatment, making the thought that treatment now- so far after the fact- would seem irrelevant to them. My entire adult life, this country has been at war. We focus so much on our current SM's and transitioning veterans that we sometimes "forget" (for lack of a better word) those who came before us. That they paved the way for us and the things that we know now. Eliminating the stigma and the mindset that there is no help for service members, or that if service members ask for help they will be looked down upon should be the goal, then and only then, will people truly start reaching out and asking for help.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2016 7:23 AM

2016-06-07T07:23:37-04:00

I think in a way it is good to bring attention to the matter. It is a serious issue but it isn't what people are trying to make it. It is being implied that 22 Veterans of the post 9/11 conflicts are killing themselves per day due to PTSD.

The number comes from a partial study done in 2012 that didn't even include every state (missing veteran heavy states such as California and Texas).

Also as mentioned, the average age of the Veteran who committed suicide was 60, so it was outside of those veterans of OIF/OEF.

In my opinion, the emphasis on the number 22 paints a picture that the veterans of this era are somehow defective

The majority of people want to attribute suicide to PTSD because it simplifies things. This isn't true at all. Most of our suicides are committed by individuals who have never deployed, much less seen combat.

Response by LTC George J Salerno made Jun 7 at 2016 7:47 AM

2016-06-07T07:47:30-04:00

There are problems and there are Veteran problems that stem from military service. This is a problem that is labeled a "Veteran" problem, but really a problem for everyone, some who happen to be Veterans. As many said, there is no context. The perception as many have noted give the impression it is the younger generation committing suicide because of their military service; the stats say something different. Most of the time, they commit suicide for other reasons (money, relationships, etc), not directly or indirectly connected to their military service (which is what the statistics show, and as mentioned older.)

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Jun 7 at 2016 9:10 AM

2016-06-07T09:10:10-04:00

The 22 helps. People, ALL people need to know the TRUTH. Yes, there have been some good bills, that got attention, more mental health care, Clay Hunt Bill, 24 hour crisis line, etc. However,
Veterans are still committing suicide. Why? What is the cause? There are a lot of answers. As Veterans and the reserve and active, need to involved in their battle buddies life for support and morale. Don't get too much into their "Business". Let the soldiers know about resources, education, education, education. Now, I will get on my soap box and call it like I see it with our "above pay grade administration". When a group of men and women have signed the blank check to become government property. Made the decision to sacrifice, everything, everything, and has made that sacrifice, when others did not. The people who sacrifice, have EARNED to get the best medical and mental health care. Obama is not doing that! What is my justification on that statement. When funding is being used to bring muslims immigrants over here to the USA because of incompetent
people do not know how to deal with war and terrorism, and does not follow or abide by the law, meaning the US Constitution, yes, the one where all of had to hold up our right hand and take the oath. He makes up new ones as we go along, is pathetic. American Veterans come first. Period. When I was active duty with the 101st Airborne celebrating the liberation of Holland, Operation Market Garden 50th Anniversary. After we had jumped, we had lunch and fellowship with the Dutch Commando Army.
There was a soldier who said: "Why want your country stay out of everyone's business? Take care of
your own for once. Tell your president, to take care of your people and issues, in your country".
I was amazed by what the soldier had said. I though about it for a minute, and said, I will tell him.
So, Mr. President I am telling you now what the Dutch Commando Army Soldier said. Take care of our Veterans first. Immigrants come last.

Response by CPL James Zielinski made Jun 7 at 2016 9:39 AM

2016-06-07T09:39:26-04:00

I think treating every emotional disorder with anti-depressants is the wrong answer. I believe any suicide awareness policy that sheds light on the issue increases awareness, which is good, but ultimately the military and the VA have no effective policy in play to deal with the problem. Just postponing it with drugs is not the answer.

Response by TSgt Bob Dalpe made Jun 7 at 2016 9:52 AM

2016-06-07T09:52:50-04:00

While the number is most likely wrong, it is an easy number for the disparate and many times dysfunctional veteran community to rally around. This allows for the "marketing" of the concept in our days of multiple formats of mass communication to be sent across in a relatively consistent fashion to the general population.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2016 10:19 AM

2016-06-07T10:19:30-04:00

It was interesting. As I had to go through training this wknd, I thought about how an unchecked poor command climate where people don't feel like they are cared about and/or have resources to help them can contribute to the statistic.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2016 11:45 AM

2016-06-07T11:45:38-04:00

Just like MAJ Patrick Snyder said, any awareness is good awareness. The problem is that the number "22" is a false statistic, it was a number thrown out in the media during an interview.

Response by SFC Thomas Holcomb made Jun 7 at 2016 1:56 PM

2016-06-07T13:56:25-04:00

I have never been big on the numbers game some organizations use. But with a little research i found that sexual assaults are as highe are higher than reported. And suicide is higher among vets than the regular population. Both are very sad. I started buddy check Wednesday now we have even more soliders starting to check on each other. So BLUF we have to look after one another. Then one day it will be 0 a day. Take the Spartan Pledge!

Response by LCDR Harding Harrison made Jun 7 at 2016 2:55 PM

2016-06-07T14:55:35-04:00

I have 8.5 years Navy Nurse Corps, Regular Navy (discharge Aug. 1984) and since leaving the service have pursued a career in Psychiatric and Addictions Nursing. I am currently a Legal Nurse Consultant working with Forensic patients and an expert witness in suicide litigation, mostly malpractice and negligence. I have been an active member of the American Association of Suicidology since 1997. I am a war time Vet, service connected, missing part of my body, diagnosed with PTSD and receiving care from the VA. I relate all this to establish my Bona Fides.
Suicide is the ultimate expression of frustration, a permanent solution to a temporary problem. How many of us have reached that moment of frustration, before or after service, that we said, "I can't take it any more!" A most recent study of data from 163,178 enlisted soldiers showed of those, 9,650 had attempted suicide during the study period between 2004 to 2009. A "surprising" fact was that enlisted soldiers who had never been deployed accounted for 61.1 percent of the enlisted soldiers who attempted suicide. An abstract of the study is available on the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) website.
The person who already has support due to early at-risk identification and intervention has much less likelihood of taking the final option, nothing left to do but end it all; "Nobody cares or understands so I'll just go away". We fight and sacrifice not only to preserve our way of life but life itself. Life is so precious to Americans we will kill others who threaten ours. The ethical and moral bottom line of military service, war-fighting and enemy eradiation is kill-or-be-killed. A Marine Gunny once told me, "The only thing you should feel when pulling the trigger on the enemy is the recoil of your rifle."
Every waking hour of every day I wear the bracelet (available from any VA facility) with the VA Suicide Prevention Hotline, [login to see] , Press 1. I ask EVERY patent I come in contact with if they served in the military. Some older vets don't actually identify themselves as veterans because they weren't in combat. Suicide cannot be swept under the rug, ignored, made a political prize or put at the end of the priority list. The veteran person that needs help to stay alive, in the field or in his own home, must have that help provided as a matter of trust. If I am under withering fire, I KNOW , my fellow service man/woman has got my back and believe I will get through this with their help. Together, we will prevail. If every Veteran believed that help is still always available, regardless of their need, there would be a lot more lives saved. The Hotline is out-sourced (see "Crisis Hotline: Veteran's Press One" HBO Documentary 2013) and is actually the National Suicide Prevention Hotline for everybody; 318 million people. Using conservative estimates (12.13 suicides per 11K), at any given moment there could be over 41,000 people calling for life-saving help; Veterans Press One. Studies show up to 90% of these folks have diagnosed mental illness or addiction or both. I'm all for ANY bill, law, policy etc. that improves healthcare for vets but something as relatively small as a dedicated Veteran's Hotline could make a big dent in lost Veteran's lives. It would also quite probably get Veterans in need into the system quickly and provide support and help when most needed.
In the meantime, if you are reading this, call your local VA facility, clinic etc. and volunteer your time. Talk is easy. Blogging is easy. Volunteering to help a brother or sister in arms takes some work and sacrifice. Just a few hour per month could make all the difference in the world to a Vet in need. You could, again, save a life and help preserve the America we all know and love.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2016 3:30 PM

2016-06-07T15:30:07-04:00

22 Suicides per Day? Florida State Univ Study:
The researchers found a total of 147,763 suicides in 21 states over the 13 years examined. Veterans were identified in 22 percent of those deaths. The study says "Estimates that the number of suicides among Veterans each day has increased, are based on information provided by 21 states and may not be generalizable to the larger Veteran population. ... estimates of the number of Veterans who have died from suicide each day based on proxy report of history of U.S. military service should be interpreted with caution." The study suggests that 22 veterans commit suicide on average each day while the data above suggests an average of 2,500 suicides by veterans per year or under seven per day in the 21 states studied. The study states that there is a significant state error rate in reporting veterans status. It also reveals a wide variation in veteran suicide rates among the 21 states, ranging from 7 to 27 percent.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-06-07T15:43:03-04:00

I think the answer here is fairly obvious. Presenting such an easy to remember number and phrase serves as a quasi-mnemonic for military suicide awareness. It helps.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 2:07 PM

2016-06-08T14:07:08-04:00

Since I had to look up what you meant by the number 22 in relation to suicide awareness, I do not believe it is having as big of an impact as anyone would like. What seems to be a common theme that I have seen when going through most of this forum is that there is little understood about what contributes to suicide and its prevention. In reality, it can be very complex because choosing to suicide is a very personal choice that may have been influenced by a single event, or a long period of many events that have aggregated to this decision. As a suicide intervention skills trainer, trained by LivingWorks to teach the ASIST course, I have heard so many stories of suicide as well as those from participants who felt comfortable enough to share their experience. I can't say that there were any significant commonalities that led to choosing death over life.

One of the biggest issues with suicide awareness, I feel, is that by pouring resources only into prevention, you are not going to make a large impact. Just being aware doesn't promote the ability to talk about it, because not all the stigma will be eliminated. For my workshop's anonymous survey, I still get Soldiers putting tally marks saying they wouldn't tell anyone they were having thoughts. I never pressure to find out who said that, simply explore what might still create that situation. Perhaps it can lead back to having trust in the person they are seeing, which is not limited to only when it comes to vets going to the VA. That to me seems to be the fundamental flaw of prevention, that a person thinking about suicide must self-identify to a caregiver. If this doesn't happen, and the local policy doesn't require the topic to be brought up, then how can one feel like they really matter and not as though they will only get blown off.

I know that I have been trained a certain way, but this last part I really do believe. We not only need to be aware of suicide, but be at a point that we are comfortable enough to talk about it openly. It may be hard to not insert deep rooted feelings about that topic, but for a person with suicidal thoughts, they might find the caring person that they are willing to talk to. So I'm talking about a cultural change, just like with how I treat my Soldiers, where simply joking about suicide is un-tolerated, but that it is ok to bring up as a subject be it that they need help or want to share what they have heard. And if I feel that a person might be at risk, having thoughts of suicide, I will ask them and give an explanation of how I put together the dots. If I'm wrong, I get to hear more about what is going on when my Soldiers are at home, all while still telling them that I care what happens in their lives.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-06-08T15:34:34-04:00

I think it helps bring awareness to the civilian population, but it puts a bad cloud on a lot of others

Response by PO3 Sandra Gomke made Jun 9 at 2016 12:44 PM

2016-06-09T12:44:15-04:00

Giving the public a number to remember keeps it in the memory better than "Some, few, too many". It takes it from a nebulous concept to a hard fact. It helps not only the military community but the civilian community as well.

Response by SPC Bridgette V. made Jun 10 at 2016 4:56 PM

2016-06-10T16:56:16-04:00

I think it just brings awareness to the facts of civilian life after the military is not an easy transition.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jun 14 at 2016 11:39 AM

2016-06-14T11:39:11-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Awareness is always important, but I don't really have an opinion on the 22 number and if it hurts the awareness or not. I know that I'm trying my best to help veterans through Sponsor a Vet Life. Check out our page on here on RP:

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Response by PO3 Brian Drey made Jun 15 at 2016 9:53 PM

2016-06-15T21:53:44-04:00

Serve your country so people can live safely and free. Then you come back and feel like you don't belong in this world. Negative or positive as long as we keep fighting to get that number to 0 that's all I care about. We have to get this number down. The sad thing is the number has been high for a long time no one just brought it out to the open.

Response by Cpl Dion Scott made Jul 13 at 2016 9:15 AM

2016-07-13T09:15:04-04:00

I'm torn on this issue. My radio tech. Became 1of the 22. His widow posts many photos of the new 22 and it is a trigger for those of us with acute PTSD however the information needs to be out there as to deter the next veteran from going south. My opinion.