Do you think there would be chaos and confusion if the military allowed transgender troops?

2015-07-01T00:41:36-04:00

I can think of so many improvisions which would need to be made because, experience hasn't been met by anyone yet.
Example1.) If a male enters the military as an 11B let's say, has completed surgery and has to take an APFT do we use the scale for males or females? Who determines when the process is finalized?
I can think of the confusion for Command Sergeants Majors when it comes to Command Climate.
How about Sisters in Arms? Can a female ( that used to be a male) really relate to me and the issues real females have in the Military?
Will there really be a unisex latrine for Transgender's who haven't completed their treatment?
What about SRPs?
What about NCOERs, (confusion at the centralized board)?
Just what about the heterosexuals who are just offended...period!

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/transgender-soldier-back-on-the-front-lines-1.355432

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made Jul 1 at 2015 1:27 AM

2015-07-01T01:27:40-04:00

Ah hell, I'll give it a shot.

1. Let's standardize the PT scale (like we've been talking about forever) and go with that for everyone.
2. The medical doctor makes that determination.
3. I agree there will be some issues - but I don't think they will be as chaotic as everyone thinks they will be. I'm sure that CSMs will still find time to complain about people walking on the grass.
4. I'm all for Co-Ed bathrooms for everyone.
5. Eliminate gender from tracking systems in general.
6. If there isn't an offended Soldier in the formation, something has gone horribly wrong.

Response by PVT Robert Gresham made Jul 1 at 2015 8:16 AM

2015-07-01T08:16:19-04:00

I am not trying to upset anyone, but if you are worried about transgender troops and the specifics of their role in the Military let's go back in time a bit and hear some discussions:
1. Women in the Military : What are we going to do with them? What PT scale are we going to use? How are men supposed to behave around the Women? Do we need to have have separate latrines? What about Men who are offended by Women in the Military?
2. African Americans in the Military: What are we going to do with them? What PT scale are we going to use? How are White soldiers supposed to behave around the African-American soldiers? Do we need to have have separate latrines? What about soldiers who are offended by African Americans?
3. Gays in the Military: What are we going to do with them? How are gay soldiers supposed to behave around the non-gay soldiers? Do we need to have have separate latrines? What about soldiers who are offended by Gays?

In other words, it's not the first time that the Military has had to deal with an unknown situation, but here we still are. This situation too, will be reviewed, standards will be formed and the world will keep spinning without the Military "crashing and burning". New things can be scary, but we learn, we adapt, and we overcome all obstacles.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 1 at 2015 8:32 AM

2015-07-01T08:32:16-04:00

Simply put, there will be no confusion.

There will be a policy, just like there is for everything else. How many times have we ran into something where there isn't an official policy?

The policy will either be Congress Directed (Law), Pentagon Directed, and/or Service Directed.

Eventually, everything is going to "gender neutral," or as close as we can get to it as possible. Things like the (A)PFT/PRT will have physiological "normalization" but we must keep in mind that we are measure Physical FITNESS, a measure of Health, not Combat Prowess, with these specific tests.

As for whether people will be offended, the government does take that into account, but sooner or later it becomes Directive in nature, and those who cannot adhere to policy must choose another line of work.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2015 8:51 AM

2015-07-01T08:51:42-04:00

Medical officers should determine the "actual" sex for PT or other purposes.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jul 1 at 2015 9:19 AM

2015-07-01T09:19:11-04:00

We simply have to cross the bridges as we come to them and not dig trenches and fill sandbags in anticipation of an attack. Things will work themselves out.

Response by CSM James Winslow made Jul 1 at 2015 9:32 AM

2015-07-01T09:32:12-04:00

SSG, for your example #1, this is why Transgenders are not administratively eligible for Military service. AR 40-501, para 3-35 says that "A history of, or current manifestations of(...)psychosexual conditions, transsexual, gender identity disorder to include major abnormalities or defects of the genitalia such as change of sex or a current attempt to change sex(...)or dysfunctional residuals from surgical correction of these conditions render an individual administratively unfit." further, "These conditions render an individual administratively unfit rather than unfit because of physical illness or medical disability." I other words, "there is a lot going on with this Soldiers anatomy that we as a force are not currently able to deal with" (My words). So once you start the process, (Hormone treatments) you would be discharged. As far as VA Care for you after you are discharged, that is up to the VA (I believe they are offering it, but I am not sure). So the issue would never come about. You are male until you are female (or female until you are male) by that time it will not be a problem. For that reason, I also do not see unisex latrines. But someone will think of it I am sure.... As for how your new sister relates to you, that is a problem the sisterhood (or the brotherhood) would have to solve. A social acclimatization issue. As a former CSM, not my issue. As for NCOERs, see my previous statement. Obviously, as you can see, there is still a lot of work to be done before the American military (as progressive as we are) can deal with all of the problems associated with Transgender Soldiers.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jul 1 at 2015 9:47 AM

2015-07-01T09:47:25-04:00

No, you are not the only one and there are much deeper more dangerous issues but none of these matter when we need to be Politically Correct.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jul 1 at 2015 10:15 AM

2015-07-01T10:15:41-04:00

It's the Army. We thrive on hindsight and mass scale disorganization.

Sponsored by the US Government, the same folks who brought you Vietnam, Grenada and Panama, and coming soon to a theater near you, Iran!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2015 12:11 PM

2015-07-01T12:11:17-04:00

I think the cart is about a thousand miles ahead of the horse on this one.

First questions should be can a post surgical transgender even join the military?
With the ongoing cost of medicine and medical followup would they be allowed in for this "pre-existing" medical condition.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 1 at 2015 1:37 PM

2015-07-01T13:37:17-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, You have brought up a interesting subject and subtopics. I can't address all of the issues on my on but for the APFT or PT test, I think that issue will be up to a doctor. A man or woman can transition to the opposite sex and be on hormones but I am not even remotely qualified to suggest when are they going to at the point they should be administered the APFT standards that matches their current sex.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2015 6:15 PM

2015-07-01T18:15:18-04:00

I think it would really be an issue. In the civilian world gender really doesn't matter. But you don't see this in the NFL or NBA. Women just can't compete with men there. This much of the same way when it comes to the combat arms side of the house. Can they play ball, yeah. But there is some disadvantages that they bring. This will be extremely dangerous. What happens when there is a Female only position. Just like the cultural engagement teams and a man that identifies as a female wants to join? Sometimes gender they identify with may not reflect so well in their appearance.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2015 6:28 PM

2015-07-01T18:28:18-04:00

Wait a second... So female soldiers have been wanting to be treated equally in the Army and recently allowed to get combat MOS's ... But now we are so worried about what if a trans is allowed in? And worried about peoples feelings on being offended? Smfh

Response by SPC Larry Boutwell made Jul 1 at 2015 7:01 PM

2015-07-01T19:01:52-04:00

Im for equality and all.... And have most definitely seen my fair share of danglers....pta....all im saying...but transgenders in the army wiuld be weird... And confusing..

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jul 1 at 2015 7:26 PM

2015-07-01T19:26:24-04:00

For me it gets down to me as science, if you XY chromosomes you are for all practical matters still a male, just because you cut off you penis, doesn't change that. If you are double XX you are female. But of course I am using logic in a realm where logic doesn't really apply, so what do I know.

Response by CSM Richard Montcalm made Jul 1 at 2015 8:07 PM

2015-07-01T20:07:04-04:00

The real question should be, "How would this make the Army/Navy/USMC/Air Force better?" Will allowing these folks to join somehow enhance a force that as been through 14 years of war and the veterans of which are committing suicide at a rate of 22 day? If there is no plus side, other than allowing someone who will be on a long profile every time there is an 'enhancement', 'procedure', or some other medical issue a 'free' pay check and medical at taxpayer's expense, then this should be completely disallowed, unless, of course, the 'complete transformation' is done at the person's own expense and before they enlist/commission...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 6:11 AM

2015-07-02T06:11:00-04:00

Not if we are professionals.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jul 4 at 2015 1:17 AM

2015-07-04T01:17:49-04:00

No, because they are already in the military. SFC Private RallyPoint Member . This is same as the hysteria about DADT being rescinded...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2015 5:25 AM

2015-07-11T05:25:05-04:00

(Pulls out soapbox, stands up on it)

1. The SM in question has fully transitioned. According to WPATH (the World Professional Association for Transgender Health) the APA, and the AMA, said SM is (for all intents and purposes) female. If you are still confused, ask google or message a trans service member.

2. CSMs don't like change. Got it. But that hasn't stopped the push for equality for cis-women, African Americans (or, as they should be referred to as, Americans), or the homosexual community. They can accept another change.

3. Can you relate to "This person is trans, and it freaked me out so I had to killh im/her/them"? In 49 states, that is a LEGAL defense. Can we relate to what you've had to go through your entire life? Probably not. But you can't get what we go through either; you have your privilege, we have ours. What we can all do is try to put all that on back-burner so we cam act like the professionals we're SUPPOSED to be.
Oh, and I AM a real female, thank you very much. You want to argue the point, you can e-mail me or send a pm.

4. Yes, because segregated bathrooms have worked SO WELL in the past. How many cases have there been of a trans* individual going into the bathroom corresponding to their gender identity in the civilian world? None. Maybe the military can catch up with the times.

5. Do you get special treatment in regards to srp for being African American? How about for being female? I don't need, or want, special treatment. I just want to serve my country without being penalized for what I consider to be a birth condition.

6. SSG, Maybe I'm missing something, because I don't even see the validity of this point. How does my gender have ANYTHING to do with how I work as an NCO?! If I look out for my soldiers and get the mission done while upholding the Army Values, then I'm a good NCO; what's between my legs has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH IT.

7. What about the male soldiers who are offended because there are women in the Army? Or African Americans? Or (gasp) the dreaded homosexuals?! As with point six, your argument is invalid, and I would like to point out that even if our existence offends you for some reason, we will STILL guard your six down-range, because WE ARE PROFESSIONALS who will place the mission before our own welfare.

(Gets off soapbox, puts it away)
Thank you for your time.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jul 11 at 2015 5:40 AM

2015-07-11T05:40:44-04:00

I would say that a transgender would have to declare their "gender identification" at their recruiter's office and MEPS and have to adhere to that gender's standards for their full enlistment/career. No "changing your mind" once you're in.
As to male to female transgenders relating you issues you and my other Sisters In Arms have, I can't speak intelligently on that so I'll leave that question to women (both biological and male to female transgendered women).
Unisex latrines/heads - No. Use the one already designated for your gender (birth gender for those of us who aren't transgendered and "gender identified as" in the case of transgenders. See my first statement for further clarification.
I'm not sure what SRP's are (must be an Army thing) so I'll let a Soldier answer that.
Heterosexuals who are offended - get over it, just like you (we) had to do when DADT was abolished and gays were allowed to serve openly. Hell, we all knew who was gay already so it was a non-issue.