Do you think we should get rid of the Bronze Star for Meritorious Service in theater?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:07:09 -0400

I'm sure many of us have heard stories of desk jockies and people who never left the wire getting a BSM without V Device over Troops that saw action and were lucky to get an ARCOM if that.

What if instead of allowing a BSM for meritorious acts inside the wire we limit it to Valor and Meritorious acts that are proven outside the wire. If the SM involved was in legitimate danger or on patrols in addition to their other responsibilities that might warrant such an award.

If they were not, then authorize an MSM with C Device to note that they got it while in theater.

I've even heard leaders describe a BSM without V as just an MSM awarded in theater.

So what do you think? Is it time to consider awarding MSM's with C Devices in the next conflict instead of handing out BSM to E7's and up?

The MSM already warrants the R Device and the ARCOM warrants the C Device as well, is it such a stretch?

Response by SFC Michael Moberly made Aug 19 at 2022 10:12 PM

SFC Michael Moberly — Fri, 19 Aug 2022 22:12:42 -0400

Depends on the act and who is giving it out. Inside or outside, politics awards undeserved medals. Don't forget that soldiers inside the wire make it possible for warfighters to operate outside the wire, and the wire gets moved easily these days.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2022 12:31 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2022 00:31:03 -0400

Here is your homework: Define the criteria for BSM and MSM. What is the difference between the two.

That being said, awards given, per regulation, is not about what was done but level of impact. There are but a small handful of medals that are rank specific. That being said, can a SPC get an MSM? Yes. Can a SPC get a BS? Yes. Should a SPC in Iraq (for example) that leads a Team of 3 pax of Finance get a BSM over a CPL that leads a Fire Team of 3 pax? I was a SGT in a SFC, and then SSG in a SFC, slot (in the same unit). I was in charge of a grand total of 10 Enlisted (out of a 13 pax unit) as the Detachment Sergeant. I was submitted for an MSM twice that was downgraded to an ARCOM. My last deployment, I was a SFC in charge of one SGT and was given an MSM as my EOT award.

Was this right? Was this wrong?

Response by SPC James Neidig made Aug 20 at 2022 2:28 AM

SPC James Neidig — Sat, 20 Aug 2022 02:28:26 -0400

What About A Cook Who Stop’s A Suicide Bomber In The Chow Hall ?
Or A Truck Driver Who Saves The Life Of A Mechanic Who Gets Trapped Under A Hummer That Feel Off A Jack stand During An RPG Attack ?
Both Of Those And Many Other Act’s Of Valor Have Happened Inside The Wire.
All Act’s Of Valor In Combat Zones Should Get Equal Award’s Outside The Wire Or Inside They Are All In Danger.
Yes There Are Many Award’s Given For The Wrong Reasons.
I Know Of A Captain Who Got A Purple Heart For Cutting His Arm On A Nail In The TOC During A Mortar Attack

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Aug 20 at 2022 12:55 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Sat, 20 Aug 2022 12:55:22 -0400

Great idea, but impossible to implement fairly and consistently.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2022 3:08 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2022 15:08:08 -0400

As originally conceived the award of the Bronze Star was governed by the following:

Executive Order 9419, 4 February 1944 >
There is hereby established the Bronze
Star Medal, with accompanying ribbons
and appurtenances, for award to any
person who, while serving in any capacity
in or with the Army, Navy, Marine Corps,
or Coast Guard of the United States on
or after December 7, 1941, distinguishes,
or has distinguished, himself by heroic
or meritorious achievement or service,
not involving participation in aerial
flight, in connection with military or
naval operations against an enemy of the
United States.
----------
Executive Order 11046, 24 August 1962 >
The Bronze Star Medal, with accompanying ribbons and appurtenances, which was first
established by Executive Order No. 9419 of February 4, 1944, may be awarded by the Secretary
of a military department or the Secretary of Transportation with regard to the Coast Guard
when not operating as a service in the Navy, or by such military commanders, or other
appropriate oýicers as the Secretary concerned may designate, to any person who, while
serving in any capacity in or with the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, or Coast Guard of the
United States, aÿer December 6, 1941, distinguishes, or has distinguished, himself by heroic or
meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight--
(a) while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States;
(b) while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or
(c) while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing
armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
----------
Executive Order 13286, 28 February 2003 >
Sec. 70. Executive Order 11046 of August 24, 1962 (‘‘Authorizing Award
of the Bronze Star Medal’’), as amended, is further amended by striking
‘‘the Secretary of Transportation’’ in section 1 and inserting ‘‘the Secretary
of Homeland Security’’ in lieu thereof.

I appreciate SPC Benjamin's frustration and his "from the foxhole view". The problem is not that the regulations associated with the award of the Bronze Star Medal are being misapplied. The problem is the artificial limitations on the number of awards that can be made. In my opinion this overinflates the value of the award in the decision matrix for promotion and command assignments of career officers and NCOs. I am not implying that every career minded individual is of necessity a "badge hunters". What I am saying is that everyone who qualifies for the award of the BSM as established should receive it. SPC Benjamin has recommended a requirement of "outside the wire" action only for eligibility. I contend that warfare has changed dramatically since the concept of the FEBA (forward edge of the battle area) and "Air-Land Battle. There is no true frontline today. Anyone who is assigned to an "area" or zone of armed conflict today has a greater likelihood of becoming a casualty than did the rear echelon of past conflicts. Make the award as it was initially intended and remove the artificial caps to the numbers of awards that can be made.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Aug 20 at 2022 4:48 PM

SSG Bill McCoy — Sat, 20 Aug 2022 16:48:45 -0400

Both my sons were combat deployed - Infantry (3 tours) and Truck Driver (1 tour). Both lamented how SOME NCO's (Infantry) or most NCO 's (Transportation) who never left the wire, got BSM's. The three Infnatry units my sone was in were strict about them - Transportation virtually all SSG's and above automatically got the BSM, regardless of their duties.
It was similar in Nam ... we had a Dental Tech who was NEVER outside the wire get a Navy Commendation with V Device, and clerks in Division Rear getting them as well, and even Bronze Stars/V and supposedly, Silver Stars. In Nam, it seemed you were either in a unit that gave awards like candy, or others as the exception. All grunt Marines and grunt corpsman did get the CAR (Combat Action Ribbon). I will say, the Army gave me the same points for it was they would for a CIB.
All that said, there should be no "candy awards," period.

Response by SP5 Dennis Loberger made Aug 20 at 2022 9:21 PM

SP5 Dennis Loberger — Sat, 20 Aug 2022 21:21:27 -0400

I have never felt that this is a zero sum world. When someone else gets an award, I say good for them and congratulate them. My contributions and accomplishment are not diminished by the recognition of others. What I have or have not done will not appear on my tombstone, nor will theirs.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 21 at 2022 3:09 AM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Sun, 21 Aug 2022 03:09:40 -0400

I would keep things like they are now. You don't get a Bronze Star for complete a tour. You usually get it for Valor. You get an MSM for exceptional performance over and above in performing above and beyond many others at a high level

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2022 12:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Aug 2022 12:58:09 -0400

Never much cared about awards I’ve gotten or may get, don’t really care much about what anyone else gets

Except my Humanitarian Service Medal

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Aug 22 at 2022 1:05 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Mon, 22 Aug 2022 13:05:38 -0400

I think the system was working just about rite.
We reviewed the awards prior to them going to BDE and Div and found very few that were inflated. It took a lot of time and attention.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 23 at 2022 7:35 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 23 Aug 2022 07:35:21 -0400

Hearing stories or personally witnessing are very different. Unless the individual can emphatically state that an individual and his or her command blockages an award they don’t have much to say. Awards are designed with guidance. The write up has to match the regulation. I have never seen the assertion that you speak to, I have only heard of it. In a few Theaters I supported awards for which I was not present and had the assumption that someone did not leave the wire, unless I was with them 24/7 I cannot attest.

If someone wears an award of which people falsified documents they should be ashamed of themselves.

Unless one has proof they should let it go. Ensure that you follow the rules.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Aug 23 at 2022 12:31 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Tue, 23 Aug 2022 12:31:27 -0400

YES...I have seen them awarded for just deploying to a combat zone and doing your damn job. Too many people have these displayed and when I ask them where it was awarded and they tell me I just go ...Oh OK...and walk away shaking my head. Plus they seem to be rank based as well which I am totally agains. There is no standard across DoD for the awards. Subjective at best. Just do away with all the medals except Purple Hearts and MOH. They are definitive and scrutinzed at many levels prior to award. Everything else is just subjective in nature. IMHO.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Aug 24 at 2022 3:56 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Wed, 24 Aug 2022 15:56:02 -0400

I was recommended for a MSM for a really big deal shortly before I retired (not going into details, but it was a big deal). Because it was close to my retirement, my CO decided to combine the specific MSM with an "end of tour" award.
I actually saw the folder containing the 2 different recommendations (1 for MSM, 1 for NCM end of tour) with a sticky note on it saying "E7 = NCM", signed LtCol Douchebag.
Meanwhile every E7 and above returning from Irag/Afghanistan in other units were awarded BSMs for conducting muster and making sure the gear got counted. Good for them, not mad, just there seemed to be no rhyme or reason for who got what.
It really just came down to being in a command that only deployed assets/small teams with a CO (Supply Officer) that had never been in a deployable unit.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2022 12:16 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 12:16:50 -0400

Gunna just start with....you should probably rethink your wording on things when you have never been in a combat zone.

Response by SSG Jack Scott made Sep 4 at 2022 8:45 PM

SSG Jack Scott — Sun, 04 Sep 2022 20:45:03 -0400

Hell yes the Army has abused this award and almost made it worthless. You have to look at what awards do for you after your service. The Bronze Star is one like the Purple Heart that gives you added benefits from the VA And other institutions. Yo give it to someone for leadership in supply on the FOB cheapens the award! It should only be given for actions in Combat. The the TOP POG on the FOB who rode out on one patrol and a CAB because the last truck in the convoy took a road!