Does a 3/3 on NCOER prevent me from continuing my career in the military?

SSG Theodore Scherer — Wed, 01 Oct 2014 19:59:55 -0400

I have recently come into a rather, I think, unusual situation. Without going into too much detail essentially one of the Soldier's in my rating chain I feel is a toxic leader and I have a rather substantial amount of evidence to back up this claim. A Commander's Inquiry has been done and I have exhausted all possible means of combating this situation with the exception of the NCOER appeal process.

I am being marked down for a needs improvement under Duties and Responsibilities for a situation that was proven to not be my doing. This NCOER is being done up as a 3/3 and is the only blemish on my record during my rating time. The DA 4856 I had received for this incident I did not agree with, however because of the nature of this officer and the way I was treated by them, I did not have a choice but to agree on the form. I know it is my right to disagree however I personally felt that that right was taken from me throughout my time with this officer. This officer has made it a point to make ending my career a personally motivated ordeal and it has been noticed by other members of the organization, even going so far as to change my raters bullets on the NCOER, with this officer being the senior rater and stating that they wish this to be as weak as possible.

My question is, does a 3/3 prevent me from continuing my career in the military? It is lowest NCOER I currently have and due to the nature of this I feel I have a standing chance of appealing it. I realize the Army Retention Initiative from February 2014 states that a 4 in any category will end you its just I am not sure about this rating. Again up until this point in my career I have had zero incidents or issues against and my record is for the most part spotless. I am attempting to pursue to be a Warrant Officer.

I have referenced DA PAM 623-3 and I am just asking for an actual Soldier's perspective on this situation as the reg tends to be, at least from my interpretation, open ended at times and it helps to have people who have been in similar situations help you understand.

I spoke with legal today as well and asked them about signing the NCOER if I do not agree with it. I know that the only thing I am agreeing to is the admin data and that if I do not sign it, it can be marked down as "Soldier refused to sign." Legal told me that it will not hurt me if I do not sign it, I would like to request confirmation on this. As of yet I have not signed it.

Thank you in advance and I apologize for the long read.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2014 10:17 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Oct 2014 22:17:58 -0400

You sign it for administrative purposes only. You could and probably should appeal if you feel that this is not a fair representation of you during that year and if that one incident did not warrant this rating. Especially if you want to be selected for warrant anytime soon as they look at your most recent NCOERs. You want the most recent ones to be the best. If talking to your rating chain does not allow you to get a higher rating you have the chance to appeal. Now, that does not mean it will be ruled in your favor as we all see differently than others and the process may rule in favor of your chain.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 8:15 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 20:15:53 -0400

no it will not hurt you if you don't sign. I had this happen to me as a Staff and made it to SFC. Plus the board will see the inconsistance with this rating versus the other 4 NCOER that the board looks at. Now will it get looked at unfavorably by some on the board...absouletly but trust me you can rebound and thats just his opinion. This to shall past.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 2:35 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 02:35:13 -0400

First, to answer your two questions:
No, a 3/3 is not career breaker. It shows you were successful at your current grade, and you should be promoted if positions are available. That is a quote from the Pam.
Yes, I would advise you to sign (assuming the admin data and rating chain is correct), and it will not harm you to not do so.

Now as for an appeal, your case as you lay it out would be to prove a rating official treated you with prejudice - different from other Soldiers with similar circumstances. You have an angle to pursue if you can prove that the S/R had "undue command influence" and caused the rater to change his/her comments. He can't do that.
In my experience this type of appeal is very difficult to substantiate and will require a number of statements corroborating your side of the story to be successful. If you go for an appeal, please ensure you have a preponderance of evidence on your side.
Gotcha NCOERs happen a lot right before a PCS. Some people lack the courage to address issues when the Soldier will be a member of their unit going forward, and wait until they are about to leave to spring an ambush... banking that you will go away. Invest the time to secure all of your documentation before you go, or you will have an uphill battle.

One last thing, the officer will never know if you are successful in your appeal, so reprisal (if he is indeed a toxin) is only likely if the circle of personnel you solicit for support talk about the issue in the wrong circles.
Good Luck, SSG.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 2:43 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 02:43:34 -0400

If you feel that you rated low due to a retaliation I would say yes you should appeal, and even file an IG complaint. I have a friend who is in the Navy as a Surface Warfare Officer you filed an investigation against his chain for unbecoming conduct. He was rated low on his report but after the IG complaint and Jag investigation he was able to get a new report.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 3:27 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 03:27:41 -0400

SSG Theodore Scherer dont forget to look into AR 623-3 Ch 4 Para 4-7 (section III) dtd 31 MAR 14, this was a major revision not to long ago and I know there was some recent updates as well. You are looking at a substantive appeal. Appeals of this nature are alleging bias, prejudice, inaccurate or unjust ratings, or any matter other than administrative errors.

Key things to remember as you go through this process:

a. be objective, stick to the facts only! if there is any hint of a personality conflict, it will bog down.

b. document, document, document. Get something in writing from a 3rd partys, what are the discrepancies, were discrepancies out of your control, as you stated "for a situation that was proven to not be my doing."

c statements - get statement from those who know you best, your raters, unless they were biased against you. How about those who were in the duty position you are in now, is there anything different they did as compared to you? You want to get as much weight on when it deals with technical proficiency/competency, leadership style, your management and your duty performance. This is about specifics not opinions.

d. maintain your military bearing, and don't get emotional, keep a cool head about this even though you may want to throat punch someone. The moment you make this personal, this thing will end quicker before getting started.

e. make sure you get a copy of your case summary from legal, in case things don't pan out. Don't let them BS you. You can request it under FOIA. Not trying to be downer, just keeping it real.

f. patience is a virtue, remember that, it will serve you well. Just got to make sure all your ducks are in row, critique it, sharpshoot it, pick it apart because thats I would do if I was on the other side of the table.

Just to caveat on what else has been said, you have option not to sign the evaluation report as stated here by several senior NCOs; however, not signing the evaluation report will not stop the report from being processed. The rated Soldier’s signature simply acknowledges that they have seen the report and verified that the administrative data is correct. The Soldier’s signature does not mean he or she agrees or disagrees with the content of the evaluation. The senior rater will address the missing signature in the senior rater portion of the evaluation.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 12:16 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:16:52 -0400

My Advice: Sign the eval. Like stated, it is verification of the admin data and will show that you are not being "hostile" to the process. Based on your statement, I would start the appeal process. Gather as much supporting evidence as possible. Keep it "non-personal". I would also consider bringing in IG based on the Toxic Leadership comment.

a 3/3 is not a killer. If your evals prior are shiny and your next eval is also shiny, any board will put 2+2 together.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 8:10 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 08:10:44 -0500

I agree with the other SNCOs on signing the evaluation. I also would like to know if you have spoken to the reviewer? Even a little differences between the rater and senior rater comments should be sniffed out by the reviewer (or the CSM).

I am on the fence with the 3/3 thing, a couple years ago I would of agreed that it wouldn't hurt you but these days it sure isn't going to help you. Were you counseled properly every quarter on a DA Form 2166-8-1? Did the senior rater counsel you at all justifying the comments and blocks? If improperly counseled or no counseling at all you have a strong case for appeal.

Be careful with the appeal process as you could end up with nonrated time for the entire evaluation period if the appeal is won in your favor. So that begs the question is the NCOER so terrible that nonrated time will look better?

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Feb 11 at 2015 9:11 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 09:11:29 -0500

A 3/3 is not a career "killer", however it may "slow" you down for your promotion to SFC, I know this first hand as I received 3/3's on my first 2 NCOERs as a detailed recruiter and it took 2-3 years longer than it should have for me to get selected for SFC. Now, getting a Needs Improvement in Duties and Responsibilities may have a negative effect on your getting promoted in a "normal" timeframe as well.

*** Sorry I was tardy to the party on this post, I didn't see the posting date until I read further down the thread.....I hope that you are successful in getting this straightened out, I know that had I "fought" a little more back in the day, maybe I wouldn't have received the 3/3s that I did, but I was a young SSG and really didn't know how my time in recruiting would affect my career. Good luck with everything brother!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 3:17 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 15:17:02 -0400

SSG,

I just (successfully) got done with this process. Approximately 90% of appeals are rejected. You need to be able to prove multiple things. 1st, your performance was higher than what was rated. 2nd, the situation was not your doing AND (depending how they wrote it) was not your responsibility (delegate authority vs responsibility). The undue command influence is a good route to go. having having said that get a JAG officers opinion as well as senior NCO's in your unit. Take an objective look at the situation and do a self assessment. If JAG the senior NCO's of your unit, and your self assessment come back with a "Appeal this NCOER" than read up on the regulation.

A 3/3 is not a career killer according to regulation and reality. It WILL likely hurt you for several looks at SFC.

If you decide to go ahead with the appeal, ensure you have all of your ducks in a row. You want to, objectively make a case for the appeal. The burden of proof lies with the Soldier as the Command/Rating Chain is assumed to be working in good faith and integrity. Document every situation from as many different perspectives as possible. If your NCOER actually changed from originally submission from the rater to the final version due to the officer, then document that as well as the creation and submission dates if you can (screen captures of file properties can do this). If you need more help message me and we can talk on the phone or over email.

An additional avenue for you may be (if the Command is involved) is a Complaint against the Commander as authorized in the UCMJ (goggle it for more details) in this case you need to submit a formal MFR requesting redress. The Memo must specifically state the problem and exactly the redress you desire. It must be submitted within a limited time ( I think it is likely 90 days but check on that) and MUST cite you are submitting it pursuant to the specific article of the UCMJ discussing a complaint against a commander. This triggers several events and puts a clock on the Commanders actions and reply. this allows you to, upon expiration of the clock and lack of sufficient redress, submit the complaint to the first GCMA in your chain for investigation and action. The results are reviewed by the Army IG and Secretary of the Army. These are not steps to be taken lightly as the results, either way, are filed in the Commanders record. Again talk to JAG about it as they are the SME's.

Think carefully and let me know if you would like to talk.

SFC L

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2015 11:46 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Dec 2015 11:46:37 -0500

With all the changes in Army rules, standards, and regulations there is no telling what a 3/3 will do for you. I have seen soldiers discharged for DUI and BAH malusage from years and years ago. You dont want this to haunt you for years to come. You can always write a statement to be placed in your file to address any discrepancies in your NCOER for the board. Whatever you decide, good luck!

SFC G