Does a Permanent Profile prevent somebody from being on the Commandant's List?

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 05:22:57 -0400

So here my question, have a Soldier in WLC who is on a permanent profile. Because of this, they are excluded from commandant's list, honor grad, so on. Is there a set standard Army wide for this? Because if other WLC's don't follow that, then they are losing out on receiving those extra point and competitiveness for promotion later on.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 5:38 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 05:38:47 -0400

Could you post a copy of the policy letter that specifically states that?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 7:10 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 07:10:17 -0400

I would be curious to find out where this is, because I’m confident that there is no regulation that states a person with a permanent profile can’t be identified for Commandant’s List. It would seem to be a local school house decision. This doesn’t seem like something the Army would condone. If the service member has been specifically told you are excluded because of a profile, I would hope that there is a policy or guidance that came down from the Army to support that decision (I doubt it). It seems to me a bit prejudice toward personnel who still continuing to serve regardless of medical disability. Please follow up and see if there is some sort of regulation or Army Policy on this. I for one have not heard of an Army Policy that would authorize this.

Response by CPL Richard Flagg made Aug 23 at 2015 8:27 AM

CPL Richard Flagg — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 08:27:46 -0400

Part of me understands why this is happening; because your soldier's profile is interfering with them participating in all aspects of training. Is this fair well our mission in the Army doesn't deal with fairness overall now does it?

Response by SGT Jonathon Caldwell made Aug 23 at 2015 11:15 AM

SGT Jonathon Caldwell — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:15:00 -0400

I know that the sm must at least take an alternate event if on profile. However like others have stated if the sm met criteria to attend and was enrolled after their packet was reviewed then their is no reason why they should not be able to receive honors.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 2:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:18:39 -0400

I have a P2 and I made Commandants List for ALC. (This was several years ago, but I do not think that changed).

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 3:35 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 15:35:05 -0400

That's my concern on this. Honors should be from academics, not the APFT. I know when I was attending NCOES, they had the Iron Soldier for APFT scores. Honors was solely based off academics. The Soldier has a limiting profile that excludes sit-ups and does the walk instead. But unless this is Army wide standard they should not be excluded. If a WLC at Ft Hood allows them to compete for Honors but the one at Bragg doesn't(example), you basically limited the Soldier solely off duty stations.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Aug 23 at 2015 3:52 PM

SSG Robert Webster — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 15:52:45 -0400

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member is there more to this story than you may know about? I am making the assumption that this is your soldier that you are talking about.

In the responsible NCOA information packets or course material is this a stated obstruction? Or, is this something that the soldier and or you have been told and by whom?

The reason that I have an interest in this is that when I was a student at ANCOC, I became violently ill during qualification on the range, which caused me to get a No Go. This knocked me out of the running for any honors for the course. Academically at the end of the course, I was number 2 and the point difference was by .002 points. If I had not gotten sick and had qualified on the first go around, I would possibly have been number one in the class. Oh well.

Good luck to your soldier.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 5:37 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 17:37:14 -0400

I do not remember what the cut off was, but when I went through WLC in 2013, we were one of the first cycles (at least that's what we were told) to require a particular APFT score to make commandants list. I suspect that SPC Benjamin Roeder hit the nail on the head. It's not that a permanent profile is barred from making commandants list, but that it's hard to over come a 60 point score in one event.

Response by SSG Michael Hathaway made Aug 24 at 2015 5:19 AM

SSG Michael Hathaway — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 05:19:27 -0400

I can say that it shouldn't exclude permanent profiles. I know because I have a perm profile for a knee injury and still made Commandants List in WLC at the 7th Army Academy here in Germany. Though that may be because I was still able to do an alternate event and my profile wasn't laden with a lot of stipulations.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2015 9:32 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 09:32:11 -0400

A permanent profile should not limit your potential for honors within an NCOES course. SGT Efaw's post shows that Ft. Jackson's NCO Academy is handling permanent profiles the right way. If there are NCO Academy's that are following different standards then it is not fair to the soldier and discriminatory toward soldiers with a permanent profile. An NCO Academy should, at a minimum, be using the standard in AR 600-8-19, in regards to APFT score calculation, when determining honors eligibility. I attended ALC and SLC with a permanent profile and was distinguished honor grad from both. Fortunately that NCO Academy had a common sense and fair standard.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2015 3:27 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:27:40 -0400

Perm profile does not get you off the list. Any PT or course failures get you bumped off.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2015 5:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 17:23:37 -0400

I was kept from the Commandants list due to a walking profile that kept my PT score at 60 in that one event.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2015 9:05 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:05:36 -0400

There is NO stipulation in any reg that excludes soldiers on permanent profile to make any accolade list in any NCOES. The only thing it says is that the profile can not limit the soldier from completing all requirements to graduate. That being said, they don't calculate the score for alternate event as if it was for promotion ( which a lot of people have a misassumption about too, but that's a different topic). So you wouldn't get a score for the alternate event. And that, of course, puts you at a disadvantage against your peers. And it's hard to make up those points in the academic portion.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2015 6:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:12:41 -0400

Active Component Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs), Version 6 ...
https://www.hrc.army.mil › assets › pdf
Apr 7, 2014 - Section 4: Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT)/Profiles ... Section 10: Command List Integration .... New Answer: An automated calculation of promotion scores is based ... New Answer: The Company Commander must sign a .

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Aug 25 at 2015 6:15 AM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 06:15:43 -0400

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member I was on the Commandant's List at ANCOC and had a permanent profile. To make up for the lower APFT score I had to have a higher GPA.

Response by SGT(P) Gloria Francis made Aug 25 at 2015 4:00 PM

SGT(P) Gloria Francis — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 16:00:21 -0400

There's no regulation on this matter. I know because I was challenged & proved my leaders wrong. The only thing to prevent a Soldier from such thing is being flagged. If this Soldier is being singled out it's discrimination under the disable act. People do dumb things not knowing the regulations & are not called out on it. Don't allow this to happen to your Soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2015 4:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 16:03:49 -0400

All NCOES have to follow the Course Management Plan that is for that specific course (i.e. WLC, ALC etc.). This is regulatory guidance from the Sergeant Major Academy. According to the latest CMP for WLC, a soldier can only be removed from receiving honors if they are issued a negative 4856 at any time during the course or their GPA falls short of the top 20%.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2015 9:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:32:48 -0400

The profile will not stop you from the CMDTs list since it is computed based on GPA and performance evals. However is the permanent profile prevents the students from
performing something like marching or rucking then yes it would be impossible to properly grade them if they can't March troops for D&C eval or ruck march during STX lanes.

Response by SSG Jason Trammell made Aug 26 at 2015 12:03 PM

SSG Jason Trammell — Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:03:42 -0400

It depends on the profile, for instance. If you can do pushup and situps but cannot run. The way it was done when I went was you needed to score at least 270 on the PT test to be on Commandant list. Even if you scored perfect on 2 out of 3, you were only given a minimum score of 60 on one that you have a Permanant profile for. That is what happened to me, I always scored higher than 270 on every PT test (100 on the run) , but, had developed a tumor right above my right knee, that created problems for my run, so I had a permanent profile for running, even though I still liked to run. I was in the top 10% of my PLDC class and had a 94% overall and was excluded from Commandant list, because of the Profile. Hope this helps.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 10:50 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 10:50:56 -0400

No it should not preclude them from commandant's list or honor grad. I have a permanent profile and just finished alc. It should not be used against him in anyway. See EO or IG about discrimination.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2016 10:06 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 10:06:26 -0400

Chief, I believe it's a individual cadre decision and it depends on the profile. Does the profile keep the Soldier from fully participating as the rest of the Soldiers? If the Soldier has a P3 hearing profile and can pass a APFT, participate in all marching, combatives, land nav and all the physical stuff, then they should not be excluded from the Commandants list. If there is no training or school reg that governs this, then its like I said. Cadre decision based on type of profile and varies from Cadre to Cadre.

Response by LTC Stephan Porter made Aug 26 at 2018 9:53 PM

LTC Stephan Porter — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 21:53:21 -0400

Shouldn’t.