Does a subordinate SPC have to stand at parade rest for a SPC squad leader?

SGT Sam Decker — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:09:17 -0400

Ok, so in my reserve platoon, one of the squad leaders is a SPC. He's prior active duty, been deployed, and is overall squared away. He had to do an on the spot correction on another SPC in his squad. She immediately went on the defensive and just offering excuses. The SQL kept cool and told her to stop and just listen. Instead she told him that if he "came with an attitude" she'd give one right back. That's when he'd apparently had enough and told her to get at parade rest and asked another SQL (who was a SGT) over as a witness. The Soldier then said she doesn't have to stand at parade rest because they're the same rank. That's when I walked away. Now, I've seen this kind of situation before. It's always been my understanding that the SQL, despite being the same rank, had delegated authority and was within that authority to lock a Soldier up. However, I've looked through AR 600-20 & 600-25 and I can't find specific paragraphs to support or discredit that. Can anyone shed some light?

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made May 16 at 2016 11:11 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:11:58 -0400

Yes...it's the position.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 11:13 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:13:26 -0400

if a SPC is put in a leadership role and has passed the board they should get promoted to CPL if not that other SPC has to stand at Parade rest because the other has been given the authority of leadership. Some will argue with this but I have been in charge of SGTs because they lost there privilege when I was a SPC. Of course that was the old army.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made May 16 at 2016 11:16 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:16:19 -0400

It's the position. And even with two of equal rank, they are only truly equal if they were promoted the same day and time. Just like whose the oldest twin.

Response by SSG Leo Bell made May 16 at 2016 11:17 PM

SSG Leo Bell — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:17:26 -0400

That's a very good question. I had that happen way back when when I was and E4 and was in charge of a squad. I had E3 females and I had just came from an artillery unit so I didn't know how to act when she gave me attitude and mouthed off so I went to my SFC and she did on the spot correction with here, that next week I was pinned SGT anyway.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 16 at 2016 11:20 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:20:49 -0400

What is that "If you come with attitude" toward her squad leader? That would have been a week of "School of the Soldier" in my day. But this is the kinder, gentler Army. I would bet she has hair and nails that are just barely on the line of being acceptable, but only if you squint real real hard at the regulation.
The unit should make this Specialist a Corporal, just to prevent this. They should also make that other Specialist a Private First Class for a couple months.

Response by CW4(P) Detrottus Thomas made May 16 at 2016 11:29 PM

CW4(P) Detrottus Thomas — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:29:33 -0400

The Squad Leader is holding a leadership position and therefore is entitled to a certain level of respect. The members of that squad should treat that SPC Squad Leader with same level of respect that they would if he/she were a Noncommissioned Officer. If the squad member is displaying insubordination towards the Squad Leader then that Soldier should be handled accordingly using the NCO Support Channel and the Chain of Command as necessary. In most if not all instances where rank is equal, position held trumps said rank. I could go on and on but I think you get my drift. The Squad Leader is in charge of their squad and as long as he/she aren't issuing orders that unethical, immoral or illegal, the members of that squad are expected to follow those orders, even if those orders include the words PARADE REST or AT EASE!

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made May 16 at 2016 11:32 PM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:32:21 -0400

Been similar posts with this exact question, but it is the position and not the rank. If a SFC was to mouth off to another SFC who was acting as a 1SG it would end badly. Same thing if an E-5 team leader didn't like his E-5 squad leader. You are always going to have personnel filling positions of higher levels than their grade. Their orders are lawful based on their position and the fact that the subordinate knows the position they hold.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 11:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 May 2016 23:53:23 -0400

Absafrickenlootly. sure it's rank against rank but the real thing you need to be looking at here is position. As an E5 instructor, I had E6s and E7s standing at parade rest for me. Did I like it? No. It was weird. Why? Even though they outranked me, I was in the position of authority and had position over them. Same thing goes here. That SPC squad leader has airport over that SPC and thus parade rest should be assumed

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made May 17 at 2016 12:47 AM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Tue, 17 May 2016 00:47:32 -0400

Because the SPC SL is in a SSG position the SPC squad member should because of the duty position of the SL.

Response by SN Greg Wright made May 17 at 2016 2:21 AM

SN Greg Wright — Tue, 17 May 2016 02:21:24 -0400

On Navy ships, an 0-4 (Lieutenant Commander), 0-5 (commander) or 0-6 (Captain) is the CAPTAIN of a given vessel. God help an officer that goes onto a destroyer who's captain is an 0-5, and tries to pull rank at 0-6, IF they're not in the CoC. EVERY commander of a vessel, is referred to as 'Captain'. Even if, as sometimes happens, they are ENLISTED. And that person has ABSOLUTE authority. Period. I can't imagine that the Army should be different.

Fun fact: ANY officer, of any rank, wishing to board a Navy ship, will find themselves requesting permission, AND SALUTING FIRST, an officer of the deck who has GREAT chances of being enlisted. And, that OOD will have absolute authority over the requesting officer.

See how life sometimes throws you a curve?

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 2:42 AM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 02:42:44 -0400

They have the same grade, not rank. Date of rank provides seniority. He must be minimum of a CP to do the parade rest thing. On the back of your ca you will see tiers. NCOes are tier 2. Officers are Tier 3. This is Geneva convention for pow stuff but it basically delineates workers, supervisors and administrators.

Calling an NCO over was the right move in this he said she said army. He should've been there from the instant attitude was involved. Parade rest was not required but obedience was.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 4:26 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 04:26:29 -0400

No, the subordinate doesn't have to stand at PATADE REST! However, the subordinate must respect the authority given as if he or she is outranked or outranks. Whomever gave the authority to the SQL is looked at as the senior advisor son this case. Therefore they must take orders as such....

Response by SSG Vik Polivka made May 17 at 2016 7:20 AM

SSG Vik Polivka — Tue, 17 May 2016 07:20:27 -0400

Yes, because of their position. We had a PSG that was a SSG, and a Squad Leader (SSG) stood at parade rest for him. While we were deployed, they got into an argument in formation, and the PSG had him do push ups. Afterwards I asked the Squad Leader if he really had to, I mean they're the same rank. He said, yeah, but he's the PSG.

I don't know off the top of my head which regulation covers it, but I think the right answer is yes, due to positional authority. Anything else undermines their leadership.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 8:59 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 08:59:49 -0400

im a specialist(P) and I have been in charge of other specialist. Personally I wouldn't try to force some on to go to parade rest for me but with that being said there are no actors in the army. If some one is appointed to be a squad leader you should give him the respect as if he where an NCO.

Response by SSG(P) Timme Jones made May 17 at 2016 9:40 AM

SSG(P) Timme Jones — Tue, 17 May 2016 09:40:30 -0400

Yes, the SPC squad leader holds a higher position then you. I had this happen it me too when I was a SPC squad leader for 6 months, my other leaders gave a brief to the platoon saying to treat me like an NCO due to the position.

Response by SGT David T. made May 17 at 2016 10:16 AM

SGT David T. — Tue, 17 May 2016 10:16:54 -0400

The way it was described to me is that there is no inherent obligation to go to parade rest for someone of equal rank absent any orders to do so. However, if a NCO or even that SPC issues an order to do so, then it becomes a lawful order.

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made May 17 at 2016 10:27 AM

SFC Thomas Howes — Tue, 17 May 2016 10:27:21 -0400

When I was a platoon sgt if my sql were not sgt I made them cpl that way they were looked at as leaders

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 11:33 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 11:33:04 -0400

It's certainly the position. Sadly, when you're the same rank as a SPC regardless of your DOR or your P status, you will be spoken to as a regular SPC (in my experience). The army is just different now, even since I've been in the last 4 years. As a SPC(P), I don't get any kind of authority over my peers in my shop regardless of the lower rank or not.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 17 at 2016 1:06 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Tue, 17 May 2016 13:06:01 -0400

From an AF guy perspective... I would think the SQL is well justified simply by virtue of the leadership position to which he has been appointed. Secondly, once the SGT was involved, she should have assumed parade rest for him if nothing else. Providing she still failed to demonstrate the appropriate military bearing, respect for authority, etc. the paperwork trail should have begun immediately.

Response by SSG Dale Sibble made May 17 at 2016 3:08 PM

SSG Dale Sibble — Tue, 17 May 2016 15:08:57 -0400

Doesn't matter what rank he was if he is right they have the right to correct you and someone higher see he can do the job or they wouldn't put him in charge of a squad

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 17 at 2016 3:41 PM

SSG Don Maggart — Tue, 17 May 2016 15:41:08 -0400

No Sir They Stand as Equals.... I've had Officers try to teach me FDC Procedure which was my job in addition to Mortar Gunnery Rank Means Dip Lean into it Suckers...MilitantCrip The Army has Entrusted in both the same Rank and Privileges... fix the Root Cause not the Branch...

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 17 at 2016 3:48 PM

SSG Don Maggart — Tue, 17 May 2016 15:48:14 -0400

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 4:06 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 16:06:33 -0400

That was a good question.

Response by MSG Pedro Valentin made May 17 at 2016 9:04 PM

MSG Pedro Valentin — Tue, 17 May 2016 21:04:03 -0400

Not knowing the circumstances which drove a PLT LDR or PLT SGT to have an SPC as a squad leader I will say that when two service members are of the same rank it could be a taxing situation but, when one is placed in charge of a Squad or Platoon, then the one Senior in rank (DOR) should be the one in charge. At, times that is not the case due to other circumstances that will dictate otherwise. In this case the SQL from what I gathered was made the SQL by the PLT Leader or PLT SGT and if this is the case then the SPC must adhere to military policies and regulations. Now to avoid this type of situations the SPC should have been awarded "orders" to the rank of Corporal which makes the soldier an NCO, Leader, and the SPC would have no grounds to ignore an order from his / her SQL. The company commander and 1SG should have addressed this with the PLT Leader or PLT SGT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 10:15 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 22:15:42 -0400

Quick and straight forward; 1. The subordinate demonstrated a discourteous behaviour towards the squad Leader and refused to follow instructions. If the Senior Specialist is in fact the Square Leader, he or she should write up a counseling with a detailed plan of action to remedy the infractions. Plan of action fails; recommendation for UCMJ and who ever appointed the Squad Leader must support the reccomendation.

Response by SFC Mike Edwards made May 17 at 2016 10:22 PM

SFC Mike Edwards — Tue, 17 May 2016 22:22:08 -0400

As a leader of the squad, yes she do. The commander and leaders of the unit have the senior ranking leader that position of their authority. You might not find it written like that in the regulation, but if push comes to shove, the SPC that is in the higher position will win.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 11:26 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 May 2016 23:26:48 -0400

Yes because he or she is in a leadership position

Response by SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder made May 18 at 2016 11:54 AM

SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder — Wed, 18 May 2016 11:54:44 -0400

Yes. Absolutely. A squad leader in the Army is a position for a SSG/E-6. The specialist squad leader is filling a position well above his rank and subordinates use the proper customs and courtesies the o address him as such.

Response by SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder made May 18 at 2016 12:13 PM

SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder — Wed, 18 May 2016 12:13:01 -0400

I'm looking over the Punitive Articles of the UCMJ and there are quite a few articles that she can be punished under. All the information can be found here:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm.htm
Make sure that in the Key Points of Discussion after you put in what you need to that you insert a "magic bullet" and include a plan of action that she must complete some sort of corrective remedial training. Otherwise when it goes up for recommendation for Article 15 proceedings under the UCMJ, it will be kicked back.

Military Offenses That Will Get You Court Martialed

Articles 77 through 134 of the UCMJ are known as the "punitive articles," -- that is, specific offenses which, if violated, can result in punishment by court-martial.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 18 at 2016 5:42 PM

SSG Don Maggart — Wed, 18 May 2016 17:42:51 -0400

I got My Provo Corporal Stripes at 17 until I had 1 year in grade as a PFC 3 years JROTC 1 year ROTC because someone has an appointment meet me in the Gorilla Pit... B 2-2-6 B Actual out

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 1:52 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 May 2016 01:52:15 -0400

When I was a SPC I was constantly around senior NCO's and I have on occasion had to put certain individuals at parade rest. It's not about the rank it's about the respect you give and the authority you command. it's a two way street.

Response by CW5 Andrew J. Foreman made May 19 at 2016 8:44 AM

CW5 Andrew J. Foreman — Thu, 19 May 2016 08:44:49 -0400

Rank and position give authority in the military. As such someone is a leadership position should be respected. However, the command is failing this squad and should either place a SGT in the position or laterally promote the SPC to CPL. That being said I have never heard of junior enlisted personnel standing at parade rest for each other, that is reserved for NCOs, that is why if the command made the SPC a CPL this would not be an issue any longer.

Response by CPT Kurk Harris made May 19 at 2016 1:43 PM

CPT Kurk Harris — Thu, 19 May 2016 13:43:23 -0400

He is in a position of authority. Specifically, as a SL he is in her Chain of Command. He has every right to order her to the position of parade rest. It is a drill command and a lawful order. Her actions constituted insubordination. He should counsel her, and assign her corrective actions. He should also report this behavior up the chain of command to ensure there is visibility from above. If her insolence continues she should be recommended for NJP (Article 15) Her behavior can become a cancer and degrade discipline throughout the unit if allowed to continue. All of this is predicated upon the amount of support he receives from the rest of the CoC. Without support he is shouting in the wilderness.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 9:18 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 09:18:54 -0400

No.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 9:55 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 May 2016 09:55:46 -0400

I agree that she should have locked it up for her squad leader, same rank or not. Regulations aside, it's basic discipline and military bearing. She obviously has a bad attitude and probably shouldn't have been allowed to graduate basic training. That being said, your unit whether you like it or not might be fostering such behavior by not enforcing standards and discipline regularly and fairly. I say that changes need to be made in your unit but the change has to come from higher up and then ruthlessly enforced at all levels of leadership. With punishments clearly defined for failing to obey. I can understand how it might be difficult to shake off the civilian mindset when you show up for drill but your soldiers need to remember that being a soldier is a way of life that we live 24/7. On or off duty, regardless of what component we are in.

Response by SFC Matthew Mason made Jun 8 at 2016 8:31 PM

SFC Matthew Mason — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 20:31:07 -0400

She should be counseled immediately for disrespect. It is the position, not the rank. Same as an E7 in a 1SGs position.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2016 4:10 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Jul 2016 16:10:43 -0400

The female specialist was wrong. The senior spec is in a command position. Yes, if he gave her an order as he is authorized by rank and authority, she has to or should listen to the SPC in charge. She doesn't have to like it, but she has to comply or it could get ugly if the issue is reviewed from a UCMJ aspect. I like how he remained calm and gave her a little more rope to get it right.

Response by SFC Daniel McIntire made Sep 17 at 2016 7:21 AM

SFC Daniel McIntire — Sat, 17 Sep 2016 07:21:38 -0400

Yes, by virtue of position.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Jun 3 at 2017 4:37 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:37:54 -0400

Seniority is by date of rank and position.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2019 6:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 18:07:41 -0500

I have personally seen the following... a CPT (company commander of a student detachment) tell a MAJ (attending a school and having an issue) that the MAJ (who lost his military bearing) that the MAJ should not confuse his rank with the CPT’s position. The CPT did his very best to contain the MAJ’s outburst and ended up having call the MP’s. Ultimately the MAJ was charged with threatening his commander... the CPT.
So, yes... position and authority are linked. To the point that a lesser rank can have legal authority over a senior ranking officer.