Does anyone agree that the Navy should do away with how it currently advances?

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Jun 2017 14:14:33 -0400

Work evaluations should be how individuals are chosen for advancement. But these days, work evals are based not nearly as much as they should be on quality of work. Some who is not a good or productive worker might get a better eval because he volunteers more or is seen more by the command when the one deserving is too busy working or carrying the weight of the other. Comments on this or opinions?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2017 2:28 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Jun 2017 14:28:38 -0400

Just one of MANY issues with evals and promotions

Response by PO1 A C. made Jun 7 at 2017 3:39 PM

PO1 A C. — Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:39:32 -0400

Yes. And I would add that there should be some measure of evaluating actual leadership ability. I would be open to some sort of combination between our current eval system and a board like the Army does it.

Response by PO1 Robert Johnson made Jun 7 at 2017 4:51 PM

PO1 Robert Johnson — Wed, 07 Jun 2017 16:51:00 -0400

Since I retired in 1990, I'm not familiar with the current system of promotion. In my time, we were given written exams based on our rate/rank after we met Time in Rate requirements. The exam was administered to all eligible persons in that rate Navy wide. If you passed the exam with a high enough score, your records were evaluated for performance evaluations, awards and sea/shore rotations. if too many others in the same situation scored higher on these evaluations, you were assigned a status of PNA (passed but not advanced, but if you scored well and chosen for advancement, depending on your command, you could put on the new rank (Frocked) but would not be paid until your date came up. (usually within 2-3 months.) There were some advantages to this but many disadvantages as well. For instance; some people do not do well taking tests while others find it a breeze. The sailor who was in an MOS that had few or no sea billets were at a distinct disadvantage. From one exam cycle to the next, the focus could change. For the HMs one cycle could be heavy on medical administration and very little on medicine and then the next cycle could be reversed. The point is that I don't think that there will ever be an advancement system that is going to satisfy everyone.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2017 6:58 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Jun 2017 18:58:01 -0400

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member this is a sad reality in the Air Force, too. You can be a kickass operator in whatever job you do, but if you don't volunteer & have enough community service hours, you get passed up by Johnny Dipshit.
For what it's worth, the CMSAF is working hard to do away w/ this crap, so I hope MCPON can do the same for you guys!

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2017 2:06 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jun 2017 02:06:01 -0400

First I'll ask what are you basing your opinion on? Is this the situation you are in compared to another Sailor who was advanced? If yes do, you know if he received a better eval than you, or what his past evals were? Do you know what his exam score was? Time in rate? The point I'm getting at is just because he was advanced and you weren't doesn't mean the command thinks he is a better Sailor.

Now, If you are working a lot more than the other Sailor is then this should be apparent when comparing your evals together, if not that is a leadership problem. If the command is placing more weight during rankings on community service, collateral duties, etc. than it does with how a Sailor is contributing to the mission(doing your job) then that is a command problem.

The eval I made Chief from(and the few before it) had three main bullets: How I was performing as a leader, How I was doing my job, How I was performing the 1 collateral duty I had. There was 1 line about my community service.

Point is, I don't think what you write about is Navy wide or is the type of Sailor Big Navy wants to promote. Even with the perfect eval system can be biased in favor of the Sailor the command perceives is better if that is the culture of the command. This is where things like the Chief Board can correct that. There's a lot you can get from an eval and can tell about a Sailor without ever meeting them. It's not all about the EP. Could all the ranks benefit from having a board like CPO and above do? Maybe but it might not be very practical.

Last thing I'll add is the Navy is making changes to its eval system for the first time in 20 years however, the details of the changes are still vague.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2017 11:15 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jun 2017 23:15:31 -0400

Yes it should. The entries for volunteering and for outside civilian schools is a scam to bring up people that are week or poor at their jobs.

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Jun 9 at 2017 8:50 AM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Fri, 09 Jun 2017 08:50:42 -0400

When I was still Active Duty I would be on duty in the morning and walk through the Blue Jacket of the Year/ Quarter, and Sailor of the Year/ Quarter designated spaces at my command. I could walk through those spaces because they we nowhere to be found. By the time I could secure from my duties, I could again walk through their spaces as they were gone already.
I worked as part of a two man team in the OR on the anesthesia team. I had three primary jobs in that position. No matter what an anesthesia provider reached for I had to have already put that in the drawer they were reaching into. 15,000 med checks monthly to guarantee an expired med never got anywhere near a patient. I was personally charged with making sure the budget for the anesthesia unit was done as a 3rd Class, and if I got any of that wrong, surgery for the hospital shut down. I was able while doing all of that to see my command save over $100K. It still took me a long time to see advancement, while I had to watch others not even in standards get advanced. Hard to watch, hard to think about.
I would suggest focusing not on the external things that are often distracting, but rather on internal things you have some small measure to change. You have to ask yourself, what can I do today to make me a more attractive candidate for advancement? Even if you are really good in many areas, there are always areas to improve on.

Response by CPO Glenn Moss made Jun 10 at 2017 3:07 PM

CPO Glenn Moss — Sat, 10 Jun 2017 15:07:25 -0400

There's more to advancement than evaluations. In fact, and especially for lower (E-6 and below) paygrades, advancement exams carry far more weight than a person's evals. So long as you're at least recommended for advancement on your eval, you're eligible to take the advancement exam.

All an eval can do for your advancement is possibly earn you a slight edge against others up for advancement who are also taking the advancement exam. Same for PNA points. They'll help you for borderline advancement exam scores when you're close to the cutoff for advancement.

If you REALLY want to advance as a junior Sailor, then you need to get squared away and be prepared to take your advancement exams. This is, by far, where most of the "points" are to be had. If you can't pass the exam, or score at least close enough for the additional odd point to carry you over, then it doesn't matter what you have on your evals.

Like it or not, you're not in competition for advancement in your work center. You're in competition for advancement in your rate Navy-wide. Remember...advancement is a competition against other Sailors. It's not purely "pass an exam, get advanced" process. If the Navy needs 200 people advanced to the next rank in your rate and 1,000 people take that exam, the top 200 scoring people are going to be advanced, regardless of how well the remaining 800 performed on the exam. If you do well enough on the exam, then the small edge your eval might give you is pointless.

If you want to be advanced, then start treating your advancement opportunities like the competition that it is. When THAT happens, you'll be a leg above most others up for advancement along with you, trust me!

Response by PO1 Michael G. made Jun 11 at 2017 12:26 AM

PO1 Michael G. — Sun, 11 Jun 2017 00:26:36 -0400

I have been eligible for advancement 3 times since I graduated "A" school. The first time, my FMS was under the minimum multiple by three or four points. I took the next six months and studied my ads off and made third class. A year later, I studied hard again took the second class exam for the first time and made it. Looking at my profile sheet, I had nothing going for me: no award points, no PNA points, no education points, and my performance mark average (eval points) was almost a full point lower than the average of other selected. But I beat the living daylights out of that test.

My point is not to brag, and I really hope it doesn't sound like it. My point is that, as others have said, evals don't determine everything: you still have control over a lot of your own advancement.

Additionally, take the initiative and write bullets for your eval and route them up to your LPO or Chief. And write the bullets like you're going to get the number 1 EP; highlight what you do for your division and for the command, and what you're doing that's beyond your basic job requirements. Obviously, you need to be brutally honest with yourself when you do this, or it will all be worthless. Stretching the truth and B.S.-ing will get caught.

Response by PO1 Richard Cormier made Aug 25 at 2019 4:29 PM

PO1 Richard Cormier — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:29:25 -0400

Evaluations and advancement have been a sore subject probably sine the beginning of the Navy. Back in the 70's & 80's we had the 4.0 eval system. Some commands figured the average working sailor was either a 3.4 or 3.6 so would mark as such. Other commands felt their sailors were average if they were 3.6 to 3.8. Then again, my rate was a slow advancement above E5 ( I know as I worked for an E7 that put on E5 the same month as I did but he was a different rate).

The test has quite a bit to do with it as well. Back then we had to take the PO test for the rank and the Rate specific for the knowledge. Sometimes the test were garbage (either due to printing or other mistakes) bu they were all counted in some way or form. I made E5 in 1979, made E6 in 1986. Never failed an exam and was even recommended for command advancement. Was basically a "PNA King" LOL.

No matter what evaluation system they use for everyone, we must remember that each rating and each command are different. Some give extra boost to personnel because they are working out of rate or in an area that is far from combat (hard to score points when you don't have the ribbons) ect. With Men and Women stationed all over the globe, it is imposible to get everyone evaluating exactly the same even for the same person.

I loved the Navy when I was in. When I stopped loving the job, I left. (10 years). I do NOT consider it time wasted as I learned many things and met many good and bad leaders and followers.

Just my $0.02 for what it is worth.

Response by SSG Matthew Koehler made Aug 26 at 2019 12:38 AM

SSG Matthew Koehler — Mon, 26 Aug 2019 00:38:01 -0400

Wait till you ETS/retire and try to get a promotion at a civilian job....