Does aviation MOSs have relaxed grooming standards?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 06:19:13 -0400

I'm deployed and saw this CPL with a ponytail down to the middle of her back. When I approached the Warrant Officer in charge of group he said it's because she's about to fly. I can't find anything in AR 670-1 that states their grooming standards are relaxed. Am I wrong for correcting the Soldier? PFC Private RallyPoint Member SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" LTC Stephen F. CPL Dave Hoover SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SSG Private RallyPoint Member Capt Dwayne Conyers CPT Jack Durish MSG Private RallyPoint Member SGT Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jul 23 at 2020 6:51 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 06:51:22 -0400

It does look rather tacky, she needs to tuck it under her hat, or put it up in a bun.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Jul 23 at 2020 7:45 AM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 07:45:26 -0400

I am not familiar with the current Army regulations... but I do know that just about anytime we had a female helo pilot on deck in the Navy...you'd see the ponytail hanging down under the helmet (funny story about me asking one out over the radio once... but I'll save that for another time). My guess, having been in aviation for a little while and worn a helmet... is that it's probably a less than ideal fit with the hair "up". That might be "official policy", or not... but as with most things, it's probably best to let their chain of command worry about it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2020 7:58 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 07:58:34 -0400

There are not relaxed grooming standards in Aviation (1 maybe 2 units in Aviation have it). That being said, female pilots do take it down to fly. Seeing as she isn't even on the apron yet....she should have it up.

Response by COL R. Bruce Chisholm made Jul 23 at 2020 8:16 AM

COL R. Bruce Chisholm — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 08:16:57 -0400

I could see the point being made she won’t have barrettes, Bobby pins, hair clips, scrunchies, falling off with her hair as depicted. Just thinking of “FOD walks” and all the junk that ends up on the flight line (or the engines) anyway.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2020 8:21 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 08:21:20 -0400

Unless you were on the flight line and they were physically about to fly, I say you did the right thing and she should have been told to fix her hair. However, if you were on the flight line and the bird was ready to go and you said something, I could very well see her pilot saying that. I would not say that aviation has more relaxed grooming standards, but sometimes, some things just make more sense. If her pilot who is in charge of the bird is good with it and that is the way that they fly, I'm good with it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2020 9:31 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:31:30 -0400

When I was in Honduras, the female aviators didn't have long hair. All of them had short hair. That being said, I can see both sides to the issue. As others have said, if she wasn't on the Line yet, she should have had it up. But, it also appears that the Warrant was willing to take the sabot rounds for her. You did the right thing.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Jul 23 at 2020 9:50 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:50:30 -0400

Interesting photo. My take, she has a flight helmet immediately in front of her. Years ago when I was flying, our helmets contained "poured" liners where a form of the inside of the helmet was fitted to our head, then filled with a foam that provided a protective layer between the head and the helmet. This would preclude hair piled on top of the head since it would decrease the amount of protective filler. All that said, I always had a cover of some sort shoved in my lower leg pocket of my light suit or shoved in some compartment of the aircraft.

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made Jul 23 at 2020 10:01 AM

CSM Michael Chavaree — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:01:22 -0400

If she is in a flight uniform, about to fly... I dont see the issue. There is no proximity from aircraft nor time till flight requirement. If the senior leader in the crew aallows it... I would support their decision and rock on. Side note... pony tails should be allowed, its about time to change the standard. Every other country I am currently deployed with wears them, and I allow them in my Role III.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 23 at 2020 10:14 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:14:55 -0400

When I'm about to go up in a helicopter, I'm more worried about my pilots ability to wear their helmet with sensors comfortably than I am uniform standards.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2020 10:24 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:24:33 -0400

This is one of those things where does the standard rule the situation or does common sense? Yes standards are important. The force would be chaos and look sloppy without them, but also part of being a leader is exercising judgement calls and taking care of your soldiers.

Would you rather someone be focused on their task and comfortable and not worried about say their hair bunched up in a flight helmet and their mind not 100% on the task at hand or would you rather that hair be bunched up under the helmet and looking good according to the grooming standards?

Ever had to a detail in a heat cat 4 and been allowed to deblouse or roll up the sleeves or trouser legs to be more comfortable? Technicially you aren’t in regs at that point, but most regs are able to be relaxed or modified by those in charge. Smart leaders will take care of their soldiers when possible and if that means relaxing the standards to get the mission completed then many will do so. Maybe I am just too lax of a leader then?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2020 10:37 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:37:50 -0400

She should at least be wearing a cover on her head like the others around her.

Response by SGM Mike Swartz made Jul 23 at 2020 11:30 AM

SGM Mike Swartz — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:30:36 -0400

my question is why no headgear when every other soldier in the photo is wearing it

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2020 11:30 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:30:40 -0400

You weren’t wrong exactly. But always consider time place and information you may not be privy to.

Story time: a much younger SPC who looks a lot like I used to look and has the same name as me once had to be physically restrained from punching a LTC. An ROTC cadet who was close friends with not-SPC-Foreman had died in a car crash and not-SPC-Foreman went to the ROTC building to bear the tragic news. Not-SPC-Foreman was in civilian clothes and a baseball cap. Also in tears. Not-SPC-Foreman informally briefed them cadre on the details. The battalion commander/professor of military science - a ring knocker who only left the academic world long enough to achieve the minimal command and staff time to obtain LTC - gruffly responded “Well that sucks now take your hat off in my building”

He was right. Not-SPC-Foreman was in violation of a policy. But was that the time, place, and manner to address such a minimal violation?

The OPS NCO, a gregarious and troop-focused former tanker 1SG, snatched up not-SPC-Foreman into his office to calm down. And not-SPC-Foreman withdrew from ROTC the following week.

Time and place kid. Time and place.

Response by Sgt Thomas Proctor made Jul 23 at 2020 11:33 AM

Sgt Thomas Proctor — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:33:13 -0400

I am from the old school military (1957-1963) and I know that my response will draw some unfriendly responses from the more liberal younger generation but that is no problem. It is hard for me to understand how grooming regulations will even allow her to grow her hair that long. I don't ever remember seeing a female with hair that long when I was in the military.

Response by SFC Garry Kolberg made Jul 23 at 2020 11:39 AM

SFC Garry Kolberg — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:39:29 -0400

Did you take time to ask why she had her hair in a ponytail or did you just jump to the conclusion she was deliberately breaking grooming standards? Did she have permission that allowed her to wear her hair this way? You are not at fault for correcting the solider but maybe you should have gone just a step further to see if her Commander authorized this when she is flying. Regulations can't cover everything as you well know.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Jul 23 at 2020 1:38 PM

SPC Margaret Higgins — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:38:01 -0400

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member: Dear Cody, if I may indeed address you by your first name: in Basic Training, all of us young ladies got our hair cut really short.

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Jul 23 at 2020 3:21 PM

SPC Nancy Greene — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:21:02 -0400

Never Wrong SGT Cody Voye!
As a female, with long hair, I definitely complied with the Army Regulation which clearly states a female’s hair cannot touch the collar. I was actually corrected by a civilian once while in AIT. I would certainly hope You would make this correction...just my two cents.

Response by Sgt Jesus Rodriguez made Jul 23 at 2020 7:57 PM

Sgt Jesus Rodriguez — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 19:57:06 -0400

Yikes! Your troops and those around you are a direct reflection of your leadership skills and connection with those under your supervision or command. If she’s part of a maintenance or flight crews this seems like a safety hazard... but this Army so... anything goes?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 23 at 2020 11:08 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 23:08:44 -0400

Female pilots and crew chiefs wear a ponytail when performing flight duties because their heads do not properly fit in the flight helmet if it’s in a bun. We’re you correct for correcting her? “Sure.” I’m more concerned about getting out to the aircraft, pre-flighting, and making sure we have all of our required gear. So, would I call out one of my crew chiefs or pilots if they showed up with a pony tail if we’re scheduled to fly? Absolutely not. There are more important things.

Response by MSgt Mark Bucher made Jul 24 at 2020 11:55 AM

MSgt Mark Bucher — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:55:15 -0400

Hey come on, it LOOKS cool. All that matters.... LMAO

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 11:05 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 23:05:04 -0400

If they're on the flight line, or in the process of preparing to fly there's no reason for her to keep her hair in a bun. A bun cannot fit under the aviators helmet. Is it official that they can lower their hair? Probably not. But I see it akin to why we can't grow beards, it interferes with wear of equipment. So why correct her?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2020 9:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jul 2020 09:59:38 -0400

Nope grooming standards are Army wide. As far as flying though, yes, females are allowed to wear their hair down. The reference you seek is actually from a technical manual for the flight helmet.
TM 1-1680-377-13&P-1 Page 0026 00-1 Under the NOTE
• Operator/wearer with long hair should arrange their hair so that it lies flat against the head to allow the helmet and the helmet apex strap to lay flat against the head. Elevated hair styles, such as buns or French braids, will prevent proper fitting of the helmet.
HOWEVER, in the same NOTE
• During flight, long length hair will be tucked inside the Army Aircrew Combat Uniform (A2CU)or equivalent coat. If hair securing devices are used, it will be positioned below the nape strap with hair tucked inside the A2CU or equivalent coat and comply with the guidelines stated in AR670-1, Paragraph 3-2a(3)(e).
Now to this photo, if it is indeed a snapshot of the situation, you absolutely have the authority to make an on the spot correction. The intent for these guidelines are for safety and comfort WHILE PERFORMING flight duties, not while smoking and joking waiting to go to the flight line. I get it, my wife is in aviation as well, I’m sure it is a pain in the ass having to deal with your hair constantly, however laziness does not preclude you from adhering to the regulation.

Response by PO1 Randy Horelica made Jul 25 at 2020 12:31 PM

PO1 Randy Horelica — Sat, 25 Jul 2020 12:31:05 -0400

I then say that female aviators have short hair, just as the male aviators. One standard.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jul 28 at 2020 10:25 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:25:38 -0400

I was an USAF aircrew life support officer. Aircrew had custom fit helmets they were required to wear in some aircraft and some jobs. With her hair in a bun or on top of her head the helmet wouldn’t fit or provide the protection needed. The pony tail is a practical solution. Such long hair presents other safety issues. I think she should adopt a short hair style that meets regs all the time.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2020 7:13 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 07:13:28 -0400

There are no separate standards just because you’re going to fly. The flight helmet does have some comfort concerns, but that doesn’t supersede regulations. In addition, hair as long as pictured poses concerns for safety where the hair could get snagged by machinery or be a further hazard in the event of fire. This may be better addressed by the unit 1SG or CSM rather than a Warrant in front of his formation (you brought the concern, you have the picture, better to address it as a unit standards issue at a more appropriate time).

Response by SGT Albert Bowman made Aug 27 at 2020 5:57 PM

SGT Albert Bowman — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:57:40 -0400

Having spent 13+ years in Army Aviation with 8 of those as an Aviation Life Support Equipment/Systems Technician & NCO, I can tell you that females with long hair will wear it down when wearing a flight helmet. Look on the ground in front of her...that’s an HGU-56/P Flight Helmet. It would be unsafe to wear her hair in a bun or with any metallic hair clips as the flight helmet would not fit safely. Plus the hair clips would be a FOD hazard.

Judging by the plates on that VW, I’d say that they’re on Wiesbaden Airfield, so there’s a really good chance that they are adjacent to the flight line...probably conducting a crew and passenger pre-flight safety brief.

Response by CSM John Mead made Sep 11 at 2020 1:26 PM

CSM John Mead — Fri, 11 Sep 2020 13:26:27 -0400

I'd say that you were correct in approaching the senior member of the group, rather than the female corporal herself, and inquiring about her being out of uniform. I've yet to hear anything as outlandish as the response that you received. I've got one for the warrant officer though, BS!

Response by CSM Michael Chavaree made Sep 11 at 2020 2:32 PM

CSM Michael Chavaree — Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:32:09 -0400

https://www.google.com/amp/s/http://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/08/27/air-force-considers-allowing-ponytails-other-hairstyles-women.html/amp

Maybe it is time to look at changing the standards.

Air Force Considers Allowing Ponytails, Other Hairstyles for Women

The Air Force is reviewing a new proposal that would permit additional hairstyles for women in the service.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2020 3:03 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 03:03:07 -0400

Read through the comments. Here is the short answer for you. The HUG-56 is fitted a certain way. Female hair is not designed to be under the helmet. Does not fit correctly. It’s much more encompassing than an ACH. As far as the no head gear, not authorized around aircraft as a FOD issue. We never wear headgear on a flight line. And before someone mentions it. Boots are required to be un-bloused and over the boots for fire protection.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 12 at 2020 8:58 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 20:58:36 -0400

No but they are pretty boys and pretty girls.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2020 7:47 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 07:47:50 -0400

With her helmet in front of her on the floor it is apparent she is about to go fly. Females can’t wear buns with the helmet on. Why have her put it in a bun if she is just going to put it down five minutes later to go fly. My rule of thumb is if I am passed the airfield gate and in flights I am on “flight standards”. Anywhere outside the airfield I’ll blouse my stuff, headgear, etc etc.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Sep 13 at 2020 9:17 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 09:17:00 -0400

No. Aviation crewmen have additional safety requirements in place specifically designed to preserve their ability to continue their performance of their duty. In this case, styling the hair to conform to normal requirements would degrade the helmet's ability to minimize the potential for her cranium being reduced to a mush that would preclude her from performing her duties. Her readiness to act as an aircrewman is obvious by her helmet at her feet. The fact that non-aviation personnel are unfamiliar with air crew specific requirements has caused conflict since DOD bought their first aircraft. Of course we could eliminate the discussion by requiring all personnel to report for duty in their dress uniform, then change into their utilities or combat uniforms when they are actively involved in infantry training, but that would be an incredible waste of time.

Response by Cpl David Wolgast made Sep 20 at 2020 5:44 PM

Cpl David Wolgast — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 17:44:25 -0400

Swing with the Wing!

Response by SSG Lynn Skocdopole made Oct 8 at 2020 9:58 AM

SSG Lynn Skocdopole — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 09:58:42 -0400

I don't care who you are when that protective mask needs to be worn to save your life that excess hair needs to be Gone!!! That being said 'what's your excuse for being dead pilot?'

Response by CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2020 9:55 AM

CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Nov 2020 09:55:51 -0500

Yes. Women west the hair down when flying, otherwise the flight helmet will not fit correctly.

Response by Melissa Didericksen Didericksen made Jul 25 at 2021 1:25 PM

Melissa Didericksen Didericksen — Sun, 25 Jul 2021 13:25:53 -0400

Seems like the most up to date I saw was that it could be no longer than the bottom of the shoulder blades. I would find this out of regs myself. I was one that had my hair hounded on all of the time in the Army.

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made Jul 25 at 2021 2:09 PM

SSG Brian MacBain — Sun, 25 Jul 2021 14:09:40 -0400

I retired back in 2006. I first saw this back in 2019 at Scott AFB. Females with pony tails. I had ask them if that was allowed and was told it was. There is a change to AR 670-1 to that effect, and yes, even though on Air Force base, they were Army. To me, unless flying, should be a no go for the main reason for the safety of that female service member. Get in a fight, not hard to grab it and pull real hard.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2021 2:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:58:19 -0400

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2021 8:05 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Jul 2021 20:05:02 -0400

Why different grooming standards for men and women. What is this 1952?

Response by SFC Philip Warren made Aug 17 at 2021 9:52 AM

SFC Philip Warren — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 09:52:18 -0400

Yes her hair is not standard to AR 670-1, not to mention that she does not have her headgear on.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Aug 17 at 2021 10:48 AM

MAJ Hugh Blanchard — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 10:48:25 -0400

Perhaps it's because she couldn't get her hair under a flight helmet if it were worn "up" in a bun. But, to answer your question, no, Aviation does not have relaxed grooming standards as a branch, all branches must abide by the same grooming standards. Relaxed grooming is allowed for certain kinds of missions, including covert or investigative missions when military grooming might compromise the identity of the individual and endanger mission success.

Response by SSG Jesse Denton made Aug 17 at 2021 4:27 PM

SSG Jesse Denton — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:27:52 -0400

The regulation for grooming are the same throughout the Army or they were when I got out regardless of MOS. There may be exceptions but not because of MOS. As for addressing the issue with her, why, she doesn't report to you, it's none of your business.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Aug 17 at 2021 4:32 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:32:33 -0400

You were not wrong for correcting the soldier, but your petulance over the outcome is a different matter. If you didn't like the response from her immediate supervisor, you could take the matter further up their chain of command. I'm sure at some level you would eventually have found someone who would have published a memo clearly stating "We'll have no more of that." (flyers will recognize the reference).

Bringing up the matter here is mostly just a child throwing a temper tantrum screaming "But I Was Right!" and looking for someone to pat you on the head to tell you "Yes, you were right and everyone else was wrong."

It's not just aviators (although they do provide most of the examples). Every part of the military that uses specialized equipment and especially who wear PPE rather than standard uniforms will exhibit some appearance that looks like it violates AR 670-1. I still recall decades ago when various NCOs (much like you) would have heart attacks while trying to "correct" tank crews for wearing the woodland camo BDU cap together with their solid sage green nomex shirt and pants.

Likewise, it has always been common for commanders to ignore AR 670-1 when they thought they had a better idea -- whether that better idea was a locally developed patch, non-standard accouterments like a branch scarf with insignia added, or epaulets added to uniforms that didn't have them so finance clerks could wear combat leader tabs.

You were correct bringing the issue to her attention and to her immediate supervisor. After that it is entirely up to you to decide if that is the hill you want to die on. But either way, it is a matter for her chain of command -- not a public referendum.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2021 5:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 17:38:13 -0400

You can't fit a flight helmet on your head if your hair is in a bun.
Also, in aviation there are grooming standards that are mostly overlooked or ignored for different reasons, like blousing your boots. In my decade of aviation experience the general attitude has seemed to be "we already have a stressful job so we're not going to sweat the petty stuff."