Does being a better leader equal better soldiers?

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:20:45 -0400

I used to think this was the case. But the more I see around the military there is a lot of bad and toxic leadership. So my question is it better leadership making better soldiers or the bad leadership making better soldiers? Thoughts?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 9:23 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:23:36 -0400

There are going to be good soldiers no matter what. No matter what type of leadership you have, you are going to have people who want to succeed and be the best they can be; it is just part of who they are and nothing is going to change that. Same can be said about the bad. The vast majority however are going to follow the example set by their leaders. If they have good leaders, they are going to be good followers; and shitty examples will lead to shitty followers.

Response by SSG Leo Bell made Oct 16 at 2015 9:24 AM

SSG Leo Bell — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:24:21 -0400

Good question. I know I had good and bad leadership and you can tell the difference in the two. I chose to follow the good ones to become a good leader myself. I would think if you followed the bad one and started acting like them you would then have a bad soldiers. Just saying.
Bell

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 16 at 2015 9:29 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:29:46 -0400

Bad leaders create bad Soldiers, who in turn eventually become bad leaders, who create more generations of bad Soldiers, and the cycle perpetuates ad infinitum...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 10:09 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:09:02 -0400

There will always be good and bad Soldiers regardless of the leadership they have.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Oct 16 at 2015 10:18 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:18:48 -0400

No, but it you set a proper example, someone will notice and take note. You're not going to be able to save em all, but if you can get one down the right path, you've done your job. You should be the example they use and aspire to be.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 10:35 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:35:59 -0400

Another "toxic" question. What EXACTLY is your idea of "toxic", SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member? In my opinion, there is a lot of immaturity that uses "toxic" as a scape goat. In my 23 years, I saw a lot of people who shot for the 65% mentality, not realizing that when they miss that mark they instantly fall in to failure. As I am sure you either know from experience or have been told or read about, there is no coddling in a fire fight, nor is there an explanation of why.

To answer your question, good soldiers are made by, proper upbringing, proper, tough training and strong leadership. That being said good units will have shitbirds and poor units will still have some awesome soldiers.

Just my opinion.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 11:00 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:00:27 -0400

Unfortunately I think neither. Some things can be affected by leadership, but a lot of it is how the soldier was raised; the values they came in with and the things that drive them. We can train a lot and we can persuade people to some extent, but there are some things we can't change.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 11:01 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:01:27 -0400

Good leaders make their Soldiers better, and good Soldiers make their leaders look good.
Bad leaders make their Soldiers leave the Army. Coddled bad Soldiers become crummy leaders someday.
For the cycle to end, be the firewall and take care of your slice of paradise.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 16 at 2015 12:57 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:57:59 -0400

If my troops knew I cared about them, they would go to hell and back with me. I want to capture their motivation, not their apathy or fear.

Response by SGT William Howell made Oct 16 at 2015 1:22 PM

SGT William Howell — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:22:44 -0400

Bad leaders make bad soldiers. In Iraq I had an awful CO he was poison where ever he went. He killed morale and caused strife in the ranks. Thank God we had a 1SG that kept him at bay and away from the soldiers as much as possible. That 1SG was one of the best leaders I ever met. Because of his actions we were able to succeed in our mission. I grew as a leader by watching him deal with stupidity every day. Good leaders make good soldiers.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 1:22 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:22:44 -0400

My answer to both questions is yes. I operate under the principle to be a good soldier you have to be a good leader(not say I can't follow). I have found some best lessons in leadership from bad leaders, along the lines of "better NOT do x, y, and z." But you need good leaders as well so you get to see how to do it RIGHT, also stops you from burning out.

Response by SFC Kevin Presser made Oct 16 at 2015 1:39 PM

SFC Kevin Presser — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:39:42 -0400

Absolutely. Good leaders develop their subordinates and they become better soldiers.

I never used the terms "toxic" or "bad" with leadership. A toxic or bad Command environment was/is indicative of a lack of leadership. What it is, if I can revert back to my Senior NCO days, is piss poor management. I served under both fine leaders and piss poor managers. The difference between the two is readily apparent.

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Oct 16 at 2015 1:52 PM

CW3 Jim Norris — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:52:08 -0400

Leadership is the ability to get a group to perform a mission or task willingly. Now, that task maybe as simple as maintaining a secure perimeter for a communication facility. Or, be as 'pucker factor' as clearing a known set of buildings you saw bad guys run into. In either case leadership will shape the response of those being tasked with the mission. Unfortunately when you have been involved for long periods of time with missions and tasks that seem to be senseless and risky, the burden on leaders becomes even heavier, because they themselves may not support the action. However, that doesn't mean that they can 'hide behind the Colonel's bird' to justify failing to do their best to plan, implement and support the action. As a young sergeant I was asked to take my fire team and go out into the jungle at night and look for contact, well we had just worked all day to disengage from a superior force until we could get more indirect fire support....I did as ordered - we moved into the bush and as soon as I could justify we formed a perimeter and stayed quiet until dawn - upon returning to the fire base the LT. asked me if we had re-established contact and I replied that we had not but had heard movement to our front and rear all evening. Turned out to be a NVA regiment and we kicked their ass the next two days in very close contact....if i had 'followed orders' as stated and not used my better understanding of the commanders intent - keep situational awareness of enemy movements - then me and my guys would most likely be names on that wall in DC. Honesty, integrity, loyalty and commitment should always be the hallmark of leaders anywhere. Don't ask your people to do something you wouldn't. Listen to people who have been 'in country' longer (that means he boards room as well). Don't assume that position equates to knowledge needed (my speedy 4 M60 gunner could smell a fire fight coming). You have one mouth and two ears, use them in that proportion. Never forget you can lead up as well as down - being an influencer of decisions id often as important as being the decision maker. Always, always speak you mind in an honest, forthright and respectful manner. Then do what the boss asks in the best way you can, with all your energy, intellect and will - things will turn out just fine.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Oct 16 at 2015 3:13 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:13:17 -0400

Young people are especially impressionable they will follow whatever example is placed in front of them being good or bad. We all should strive to be a positive influence in the lives of the young people we are charged with leading

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 3:28 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:28:52 -0400

I do think that better leaders make better soldiers. I have some some great leaders. Now there will not going to be a leader that is perfect. I think I have been guilty of that. At times I see some of my leaders and borderline question them. Overall they were all great leaders. But there are also some poor. I don't think bad leader is passed down but their leaders are just underdeveloped and poorly prepared.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 3:43 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 15:43:39 -0400

I do not believe that one necessarily affects the other, completely. Does it help, sure. If you have a great leader out there he/she is going to improve those that he/she lead. Conversely, bad leaders could assist Soldiers in not improving. I don't think the corollary is there.

Response by CH (CPT)(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2017 12:41 PM

CH (CPT)(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Apr 2017 12:41:57 -0400

Individuals can be good soldiers despite bad leadership, but it's very difficult to do so. It's simply like putting a seed into soil. If there are good conditions, it's easier for the seed to grow. But a seed in poor conditions is less likely to grow. Ultimately it's up to the seed, but environment will affect the seed.

Response by SFC Donald Souza made Mar 19 at 2018 7:49 PM

SFC Donald Souza — Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:49:33 -0400

Yes success breads success

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2018 10:12 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:12:09 -0400

I have see. Some terrible leaders. Unfortunately it was a young LT who was treating her platoon like they were in basic training and she was the drill sergeant. It was a terrible spectacle. I was serving as an IG and unfortunately she would not listen to reason. As I began to help out this demoralized platoon I was medically evacuated from theater so I never was able to see what happened to them. Our future leaders learn from our current leaders. So good leaders create good leaders just as bad leaders create bad leaders. Sometimes good leaders learn from bad leaders howto not be bad leaders.