Does fall of Ramadi degrade the sacrifice of those who fought, died there?

2015-05-21T09:35:54-04:00

Daly, the author of the Iraq memoir “Rage Company,” still holds out hope that the Iraqi military and tribesmen can take back Ramadi with American help. But he fears that if things in don’t turn around, those who fought in Iraq will feel like their Vietnam veteran brethren, many of whom say their friends died for nothing.

http://www.stripes.com/news/does-fall-of-ramadi-degrade-the-sacrifice-of-those-who-fought-died-there-1.347429

Since Islamic State militants planted their flag in the center of Ramadi, veterans have expressed anguish, frustration and anger at what is the latest sign of unraveling in a country in which almost 4,500 U.S. troops died during an eight-year military effort.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made May 21 at 2015 9:39 AM

2015-05-21T09:39:16-04:00

I certainly don't think it degrades the sacrifices made by our servicemen and women. BUT, I seriously question why we would sacrifice more American lives by going back into Iraq.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 9:39 AM

2015-05-21T09:39:33-04:00

I normally like your posts SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. but nothing degrades the sacrifice of those who fought. It may well degrade our leadership, but, not our fighting men.

Response by SFC(P) Aaron Fore made May 21 at 2015 9:43 AM

2015-05-21T09:43:06-04:00

Of course it does not degrade the sacrifice that was made in an honest attempt by our brothers and sisters to accomplish their mission. Any degradation lies with the politicians who cannot seem to pop their heads out of their fourth point of contact.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 21 at 2015 9:45 AM

2015-05-21T09:45:51-04:00

Just for the record .. that's S&S question .. not mine!

Response by SFC(P) Aaron Fore made May 21 at 2015 9:48 AM

2015-05-21T09:48:31-04:00

Ramadi and Iraq in general makes me think of Vietnam and hill 937, we take ground and give it back just to have to take it again. Not, in my humble opinion, a good way to do it.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 21 at 2015 9:48 AM

2015-05-21T09:48:32-04:00

Absolutely not. It does not lessen in any way the resolve of our veterans who had the fortitude to stand up FOR the Iraqi people. It's more a slap in the face from the Iraqi military and government who couldn't sustain what we gave them. We helped them once, we shouldn't have to do it again because they dropped the ball.

"I hate paying for the same real estate twice" - General George Patton

Response by MAJ Sitz Randy made May 21 at 2015 9:52 AM

2015-05-21T09:52:25-04:00

I think most of us knew that Iraq would not fare well after we pulled out before they were ready to take care of themselves. We did our job! Our government (in my opinion) is at fault for allowing what all the Top brass said would happen if we pulled out prematurely. Politics.

Response by SFC Douglas Duckett made May 21 at 2015 9:53 AM

2015-05-21T09:53:52-04:00

Although it may not degrade the sacrifices made by my brothers and sisters who served in Ar Ramadi and Iraq, I personally feel we wasted a lot of time, people and resources for the year my platoon was there (03-04).

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-05-21T09:54:52-04:00

Simple answer: If it does for Debbie Lee, the mother of the first Navy Seal who passed away there, Mark Lee, then it does for me.

Imagine the parents of the slain. This is just a kick in the face and I feel SO BAD for them. Prayers Prayers.

Response by SGT Jeremy Mills made May 21 at 2015 9:57 AM

2015-05-21T09:57:07-04:00

We have to separate our sacrifices and successes from physical areas. They(our soldiers) sacrificed for a mission goal, but more importantly their fellow soldiers, not Ramadi. No area can be held forever. What worries me is that town will never know peace. Under ISIL it's probably one of the worse places on earth to be right now.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 10:01 AM

2015-05-21T10:01:40-04:00

Wars are fought.

Battles are won.

Battles are lost.

The battlefield is a living breathing ever changing monster.

You can not value people's service based on what where they laid their lives down for their country. They made the ultimate sacrifice for what they believed in.

This is not the first piece of ground to be lost, retaken, lost, retake....etc......and it wont be the last.

God bless and keep the fallen and help those of us who survived, or live free because of it, cherish and protect their memory and not let it be blighted or faded by current events.

Response by SGT David T. made May 21 at 2015 10:05 AM

2015-05-21T10:05:33-04:00

I do not think it degrades their sacrifice at all. They gave their lives for their country, and their brothers and sisters. Nothing can ever degrade that. The facts on the ground changed and that has nothing to do with the sacrifices made there previously.

Response by MSgt James Mullis made May 21 at 2015 10:19 AM

2015-05-21T10:19:06-04:00

No! However, it reflects horribly on our current civilian leadership!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 10:30 AM

2015-05-21T10:30:09-04:00

The fall of Mosel and now Ramadi does not degrade or diminish in anyway the sacrifices and accomplishments of what we (American and Coalition forces) did in Iraq. We did our job and for the most part Iraq was a stable young democracy when we left.

The utter and complete failure of the current administrations lack of a strong foreign policy when it comes to Iraq and counter terrorism as a whole is the issue. The political feel good move of proclaiming victory and running away without leaving behind a residual force to "train" and maintain stability is the epic fail.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made May 21 at 2015 12:38 PM

2015-05-21T12:38:41-04:00

While it is sad that the Iraqi military and government are so incompetent and some would say the say about our own leaders in this matter, but the failures of these people does not degrade the sacrifice of those who came before them?

I thought the US completely pulling out of Iraq was a complete political failure at the time and I am sad to find out how right I was...but we cannot undo those failures.

Response by PO1 Matthew Hotard made May 21 at 2015 12:52 PM

2015-05-21T12:52:58-04:00

I think it does for one reason, that being the administration was told their army and government was not ready to stand on their own, but to fulfill a campaign promise, potus pulled us out anyway. The actions of one man accounts for the destruction of a young Democracy and the lives of many, many people both islamic and christian.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 12:57 PM

2015-05-21T12:57:56-04:00

I've gotta go with "no." It's unfortunate that the Iraqis were unable to hold the city, but the men and women who fought and died there did their jobs. They served with honor, they made sure their brothers and sisters could return home. Nothing can take away from that. There's no question, in my mind, that it would be better if the survivors were able to look back, see a free Iraq, and be able to think "I was part of that." And it's still possible that they'll be able to do that. Wars have setbacks, we've just become so accustomed to these sweeping victories we saw during the invasion that we've forgotten that's not the way war works usually.

Ultimately, the Iraqis are going to have to make a choice: do they want to roll over and allow ISIS to destroy the freedoms they've enjoyed for the last decade? Or do they want to fight? Believe it or not, pre-Saddam Hussein, they actually didn't have it that bad. Sure they had a king, but women were free to work, everybody was able to participate, be they Sunni, Shiite, Christian, etc. I think the problem is the generation that the defense of Iraq falls upon now has no idea how things could be in Iraq, and they want us to do everything for them.

Sorry for the lecture, but again, no, I don't think the fall of Ramadi takes anything away from our brothers and sisters who fought there.

Response by Cpl Anthony Pearson made May 21 at 2015 3:07 PM

2015-05-21T15:07:00-04:00

Yes, absolutely. PATHETIC waste of human life, sacrifices, and tax-payer money. Disgusts me.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 8:46 PM

2015-05-21T20:46:23-04:00

How is this even a question. Fix yourself.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 21 at 2015 9:14 PM

2015-05-21T21:14:59-04:00

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. I don't think degrade is the right word.

I do think this makes us all wonder, especially the families of those who gave everything, and those who were never the same, was this really worth it? Making gains, at the cost of US blood, and then losing them, makes us wonder was it worth it? That, of course, is an individual question and answer.

Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines always do their duty and excel at the mission and task they are assigned. We don't get a vote on where we go or why. We don't a vote on what we do when we are there; at the strategic level. We don't get a vote when we are told it is time to leave, because we have either done all we can or because the US is just plain tired.

The US has a history of this type of strategic behavior, leaving too soon.... Generally based on political or national will.

I think the right word is it is said and this trivializes the efforts of everyone who fought their; especially those who were wounded and those who gave their last full measure.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 9:30 PM

2015-05-21T21:30:28-04:00

No.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made May 21 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-05-21T22:40:33-04:00

No, it doesn't, but I'm sure it confounds those who survived that campaign and the families and friends of those who didn't. Those brave men and women did what they were told, when they were told and beat back the Sunni aggression in '05-'06. It took a while, and we paid for it dearly in blood. Ultimately, at least then, we were successful.

It's frustrating to see and hear what's going on there now with directionless leadership and an amateurish, at best, foreign policy. It won't get any easier, and I hope and pray the Coalition, such as it is, can regroup, refocus and re-engage in what will certainly be a very bitterly-fought campaign on the banks of the Euphrates River.

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 21 at 2015 11:30 PM

2015-05-21T23:30:01-04:00

Hmm... Didn't a lot of US military members say this would happen if we pulled out of Iraq before they (the Iraqis) were ready to control it on their own???

Response by SSG Trevor S. made May 21 at 2015 11:41 PM

2015-05-21T23:41:43-04:00

Degraded? No. Pissed? Yes

Response by COL Roxanne Arndt made May 22 at 2015 12:05 AM

2015-05-22T00:05:30-04:00

I was in Mosul before the first elections were held. We lost soldiers there too. I would like to say that fall of Ramadi, Fallujah, Mosul is a darn shame but the fighting men did their job and did it well back then, it's the current administration/leadership that has degraded the value of the overall military and sacrifices everyone has made.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made May 22 at 2015 12:26 AM

2015-05-22T00:26:23-04:00

In my opinion, everything that is going on there degrades all vets and active duty. We left a job unfinished knowingly just because the powers that be to keep their political positions. Not the first time we have disgraced the falled as well as the walking military.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 5:45 AM

2015-05-22T05:45:54-04:00

I had to think about this one real hard. It made me VERY angry for this. We lost a LOT of dudes in this city when the Big Red One when in there. However in the following tours as I found myself training the Iraqis I KNEW that those that I trained were not capable of holding their hats, much less a city in combat.
I would get in trouble constantly because I was not a good ambassador to the IA because I was not friendly to their stupidity. I could not tolerate their lack of being able to grasp anything. I was told all of the time that I had to be more tolerant and I could not do it. I would tell them all of the time that if they were to face enemy combatants they were going to die, and then I would get corrected. You see, I KNEW that they were not capable of completing this task. I would watch them as they went out on tasks that we were carrying out on a daily routine with ease and they were getting themselves hurt and/or killed WHILE we were in country. When it came time for us to leave I gladly threw up my hands knowing that they were going to lose everything we worked for. When they lost THIER city, although we fought to rid it of trash, I was not surprised. Just angry, angry that I am always so right.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made May 22 at 2015 10:53 AM

2015-05-22T10:53:49-04:00

The problem with the issue of Iraq, to include Afghanistan is that we here in the US apply our beliefs of what nation should and should do be to an area where Tribes beliefs rule. It is tribal warfare and land will be lost and recapture per the dictates of the tribes ability to fight, so we either stay there dictating and fighting for them or we let them be and learn from our sacrifice or go back and sacrifice again. Iraq is a barren land where nature dictates survival of the fittest which is contradictory to democracy; no one will cooperate in survival mode.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made May 22 at 2015 11:28 AM

2015-05-22T11:28:02-04:00

Absolutely, categorically NOT. Yes, it makes it more painful for those who served their, the families of the lost and wounded and for the military community. It does not diminish the sacrifices of the men and women who paved the way to victory - no matter how transient that victory proved to be.

In some ways, what it DOES do is open the door for some soul searching. Should we have been in Iraq to begin with? Was the war ever winnable? Should we have told Iraq to go screw themselves and charlie mike when they decided to insist on an unacceptable new SOFA? And lastly, how much blame really lies with the administrations that oversaw it?

If we learn from Iraq, no one died in vain.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made May 22 at 2015 11:34 AM

2015-05-22T11:34:38-04:00

Simply, yes, the fall of Ramadi degrades the sacrifice of those who fought, died there. It was surrendered in Washington by politicians who have no regard for the sacrifice of brave men and women.

How?

Those sacrifices might have stood for all time as a testament to the sense of duty, honor, and country of members of the American military, a testament that would have struck fear into our enemies and respect in our allies.

How do you suppose they will respond now when they our leaders in Washington throw ashes on those graves?

With just a little prudence, we might have left a force in place to demonstrate our respect for those sacrifices, to announce to the bullies and bandits of the region that we were committed to maintaining the peace. That's what we did in Europe and Japan following WWII. That's what we did in Korea following the war there. It worked, didn't it? We had a perfect example of what to expect by our precipitous withdrawal from Iraq: Vietnam.

This Memorial Day I plan to thank all who fell in fighting in WWII and Korea, and to beg forgiveness of those who fell in Vietnam and Iraq.

Response by SPC Donald Moore made May 22 at 2015 12:32 PM

2015-05-22T12:32:49-04:00

Lets re-frame the question.
Lets say, after WWII, the allies had pulled out of Europe instead of maintaining a presence (we still have bases there) and the Nazi Party had risen to dominance again and reignited the war.
All those lives lost to take Europe from the Nazis to begin with would have been wasted, because it wouldn't have accomplished the goal.
The GOAL of war, it peace. If you quit fighting before the war is won and the enemy comes at you again, what did the war accomplish?

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 22 at 2015 1:28 PM

2015-05-22T13:28:26-04:00

No it does not, but only because most of us at the ground level and above, but still connected to the SM on the street doing the patrolling.. Saw this coming before our last deployment was even done,,, after three Iraq deployments totaling 39 months... what has been, is and will happen is not a surprise.

There fore I can not allow it to diminish what was done with my Soldiers.. We fought for each other, not Iraq. We helped the Iraqi's when we could, but knew all along they had to be the ones to do the deed, as we would not be there for ever.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 4:43 PM

2015-05-22T16:43:29-04:00

I DONT KNOW WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR TO PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN IRAK..WHO IS RUNNING THIS WAR? THE POLITICIANS SITTING IN THEIR AIR CONDITIONED OFFICES OR THE SOLDIERS ?

Response by MSgt Roger Lalik made May 22 at 2015 5:16 PM

2015-05-22T17:16:40-04:00

Absolutely not.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made May 22 at 2015 7:34 PM

2015-05-22T19:34:47-04:00

I'm going to echo what everyone else is saying in "No, it's a reflection of the politicians not the troops." BUT with a caviet...

It's also a reflection of "We the people" (speaking as a civilian of 20+ years).

Granted, I have the experience of Desert Storm and an interest in history (and it's tendency to repeat itself), tinting my glasses, but I am personally disgusted that the civilian population pays lip service about "supporting the troops" on one hand while acting horrified when war is waged to win.

Response by Sgt Kenneth Nolla made May 22 at 2015 10:46 PM

2015-05-22T22:46:41-04:00

I believe it doesn't. This question and it's very base is mired by the thought of entitlement, which has destroyed America today from within.
We feel entitled to freedom, commerce, and other factors we forget we ain't entitled to shit but death and taxes.
Marines die for our brothers. Marines die for our country and its glory. We don't ask stupid questions as if our deaths and victories or losses count. We are there to win, we are there for the moment and we goddammed took that mutherfucking city. We took it. We held it. Twice. More times that people imagine. But now it's taken. I am out of the service. A grunt. A warehouseman, a soldier even! And still it matters little.... Go check what Tarawa looks like...the Makin Attoll...who gives a fuck about them. We do. And we're silent. Another story for the books...

Response by SFC Robert Wheeler made May 24 at 2015 7:52 AM

2015-05-24T07:52:17-04:00

No any more than the fall of Saigon did. The solders and Marines that that fought there did so bravely and with ferociously. Nothing will change their history. This does not reflect on them. It does reflect on a whole chain of events that has resulted in the current situation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2015 12:10 PM

2015-05-24T12:10:45-04:00

In no way, shape, form or fashion does this degrade the sacrifice of those who sacrificed and/or died there. Referencing prior battles and wars of the U.S.'s past, it is not uncommon for a victor of a war or battle to lose that ground and have to retake it. However, to say that those who were injured and wounded, those that lost their lives, should have their valor and heroics degraded just because a portion of the battleground has been overtaken by enemy forces is very similar to blasphemy in my opinion. That is just my opinion though.

Simple answer, no. I will forever, as should we all, be indebted to those who stood before us and confronted the enemy in and around Ar Ramadi and paid the ultimate sacrifice.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2015 5:19 PM

2015-05-25T17:19:44-04:00

Should we have stayed instead of withdrawing? If so, how long should we have remained in Iraq? At what cost? How many more lives "our brothers and sisters in arms" or trillions of dollars?

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 1:49 PM

2015-05-26T13:49:26-04:00

It doesn't degrade what we did there. I was there from 2006-2007 with 1-37 AR BN...Task Force Bandit. We had hard days and good days. Lots of sacrifices. It was my toughest deployment ever. Will never forget what we did there and how proud I was to be a part of their history."Bandits do not fail those with whom they serve."

Response by LTC Michael Hrycak made May 27 at 2015 1:14 PM

2015-05-27T13:14:57-04:00

Military operations are conducted with a stated purpose and mission. We fulfilled our mission in restoring peace in Ramadi and An Anbar Province. My colleague, COL (Ret.) Tony Deane, together with his fellow battalion commanders, under the able leadership of COL (now Lieutenant General) Sean MacFarland, tackled the security issues in mid-2006 when they were part of a Call Forward Force and things looked much worse than now. Read Jim Michael's account of their efforts in "Chance in Hell", and I believe you will find that nothing can degrade what they, and their Soldiers and fellow Marines, accomplished there.

Response by Cpl Anthony Pearson made May 28 at 2015 3:41 PM

2015-05-28T15:41:56-04:00

It does not degrade their personal sacrifices, but it absolutely makes a mockery of it. WASTED LIVES. WASTED EFFORT. WASTED TAX PAYER MONEY. WASTED TIME.

Obama pulled troops out of Iraq to win over voters, and it doesn't take rocket science to know that GIVING THE ENEMY our timeline for leaving, and then pulling troops out of Iraq, would undo all of our progress, invalidate our sacrifices, and return that country to turmoil.

ALL FOR VOTES.

ALL FOR POLITICS.

He is a smart man. Do you REALLY think he and his party didn't know this would happen?

They should be forced to call every American family who has a son or daughter suffering from PTSD and other injuries, or worse, loss of life, and apologize for choosing politics and personal gain over achieving victory and ending the war the RIGHT way.

Pathetic.

We have PATHETIC PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, and we have had horrible leadership for years. We need someone real. Someone who chooses to do the right thing, not the easy, shallow, vote securing, bobble head candidates and leaders we have been force fed.

Yes, that is how I really feel. ;)