Does fraternization cross branches?

2016-02-21T12:15:31-05:00

Say a soon to be Air Force Officer and current enlisted Marine have a pre-existing relationship, but one is enlisted and the other will be an officer soon. Does fraternization cross between branches? I saw this on Facebook, and didn't know the answer.

Response by SGM Billy Herrington made Feb 21 at 2016 12:26 PM

2016-02-21T12:26:06-05:00

If I remember correctly once she commissions they will either have to marry or end the relationship. If they were married prior to her commissioning then it's fine.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 21 at 2016 12:33 PM

2016-02-21T12:33:21-05:00

As 2LT James Montgomery mentioned, it's a pre-existing relationship. There is also that they are "unlikely" to be in the same Chain of Command or report to each other, however.. the USMC has a longstanding "tradition" of defining Frat as "Officers dating Enlisted."

Each Service defines Frat slightly differently (Regs, orders, etc), so what might be considered Frat in the Army isn't necessarily Frat in the Marines/Air Force.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2016 1:39 PM

2016-02-21T13:39:11-05:00

This truly is one of those "Letter of the Law" and "Spirit of the Law" issues.

We all know what the regulations say--no go. But there are moments like this where is it understandable due to pre-existing relationship like my distinguished colleagues have said on this thread.

I have seen and heard of many Officer-Enlisted pairings---married and serious dating. The rating chain and appearance of favoritism (& actual favoritism) really is the crux of it being a show-stopper.

Response by SGT Michael Thorin made Feb 21 at 2016 1:39 PM

2016-02-21T13:39:41-05:00

I would make a recommendation that you research this. There is free legal assistance available through your JAG office, which some people will cringe at that word, but I recommend it for 2 reasons:

1. So the Marine will know where he legally stands with it.

2. The Marine can start planning now on if it will take a marriage to make it work.

It is the Marine who should ask this question, and he should first go through his chain of command when asking that question.

Today's military gives thousands of avenues for advice in one place. The Internet will provide you with mountains of answers, you only have to weed out between the legitimate and the bogus.

This is not meant to berate or belittle you in any way, shape or form, but you need to begin learning about all of your resources you have now. FM's, AR's and any other literature you need to begin getting ready for boards, etc. Take distance learning when you can, and maintain great, not marginal, PT scores and height/weight.

The fact that you are asking this question here means 2 things;

1. That you are willing to help a fellow warrior out, and that is one of the greatest qualities of an NCO in my opinion (which you need to prepare yourself for now.

2. You have sought an avenue for answers here to get assistance with the question, which means you already know how to utilize one great resource.

Here is the web site for Military legal assistance:

http://m.military.com/benefits/military-legal-matters/legal-assistance-and-jag/free-legal-assistance.html

Have him follow his chain, and if they cannot answer the question, request to be able to take the question higher.

His ability to treat his chain of command in a respectful and non-threatening manner will go a long way towards a positive outcome to the question.

If someone on this thread is either a JAG officer or has sighted a regulation, follow their advice. I've been out of the military since 2009, so those who are serving still may very well offer better advice.

Free Legal Assistance

If you need to write your will or need a power of attorney or notarized signature. Then you need legal assistance, military servicemembers and their families have access to legal assistance, absolutely free!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2016 2:14 PM

2016-02-21T14:14:32-05:00

Yes it does per ar 600-20.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2016 5:52 PM

2016-02-21T17:52:16-05:00

I was in this position years ago. I started dating a girl in the Air Force as a PFC and eventually contracted into ROTC. When it came time to commission I was advised we would have one year to either marry or end the relationship. After that it would be a violation of fraternization policies and regulations.

While I can't cite the reg at the moment, I doubt it's changed dramatically since 2009.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Feb 22 at 2016 6:50 AM

2016-02-22T06:50:22-05:00

The way I see it they are of two different branches of the military, both are currently classified as enlisted, until the other does get commissioned. Then they can figure out if marriage is in the picture or the other one goes on to OCS also so they would be on level ground.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 6:50 PM

2016-02-22T18:50:07-05:00

The PFC answer is: "Is she hot?"

In all seriousness, I think the issue would be that of the officer, not the enlisted. I also would think it would vary greatly with the command. Ultimately, it would only become an issue if the enlisted person involved made an issue of it (possibly after the fact) or the officer's command staff. In either case I would think it would be up to the officer to check with her chain of command (assuming she has a good report).

Response by SrA Ryan Anderson made Feb 23 at 2016 7:40 AM

2016-02-23T07:40:32-05:00

I think the whole idea of fraternization is bs anyhow. My brother married his wife when they were both enlisted. He was an E5 and she was an E4. Now she is a SMSGT and he is a Col. Were they supposed to get divorced when he got his commission?

Response by SGT Josh Suchoski made Feb 23 at 2016 8:37 AM

2016-02-23T08:37:19-05:00

My understanding is that fraternization only applies if she has the potential to be in command of you, or you have the potential to influence her decisions in favor of you or your soldiers. Since she is in another branch of the military, and cannot influence these, it becomes a gray area. My own personal opinion is that this would not be considered fraternization.

Response by SCPO Mark Godsey made Feb 23 at 2016 10:05 AM

2016-02-23T10:05:27-05:00

I don't see how one could influence the others career since they are in separate branches.

Response by CAPT Hiram Patterson made Feb 23 at 2016 10:12 AM

2016-02-23T10:12:16-05:00

When I was first commissioned in the Navy in 1983, I don't think it mattered that much. But later it certainly did, especially when the big push for Joint Commands came along. Even if both parties were in different services and in fields where they would never serve together, it was prohibited. When I was on Okinawa in 85-86 one of our male LTs and the CO's driver who was an E-3 went off to Guam and got married. The XO was pissed but nothing ever came of it. Later in Long Beach one of our female LT's dated an E-5 and went off to Las Vegas and got married. Never heard much about it from the command. You will get hit these days for any fraternization.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 10:22 AM

2016-02-23T10:22:49-05:00

It is not Fraternization if it is a pre-existing relationship already.

Response by LtCol Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 12:13 PM

2016-02-23T12:13:25-05:00

Yes

Response by LtCol Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 12:13 PM

2016-02-23T12:13:43-05:00

Yes

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 12:15 PM

2016-02-23T12:15:40-05:00

Yes, frat does cross branches. The textbook answer is to get married before you commission as an officer. That way you are grandfathered in, and there are no frat issues.

Response by COL David Turk made Feb 23 at 2016 12:28 PM

2016-02-23T12:28:55-05:00

Perception is everything. It does not have to be true, if it is perceived to be true.
That's not what should be, but that's human nature, particularly when dealing with the masses.

Response by Maj Richard Embry made Feb 23 at 2016 12:37 PM

2016-02-23T12:37:56-05:00

Yes it does! A good way to end up in Leavenworth for 10 years. If you are caught dating the penalties are severe. IF you aren't caught until you are married there is no prosecution but I know many a commander that booted the officer out of their command. Your career is over

Response by Sgt Joshua Adams made Feb 23 at 2016 12:57 PM

2016-02-23T12:57:23-05:00

as long as you are never going to be under the same command nobody will give a crap.
(source:Was a SGT in the marines dating a Lt in the navy, now out and married to that wonderful woman who is now a major in the Air Gaurd.)

Response by MSG Mark Million made Feb 23 at 2016 1:11 PM

2016-02-23T13:11:38-05:00

As a pre existing relationship where neither party has direct influence on the others career I believe they would have a period of time to either get married or end anything beyond friendship.

Response by MAJ Jeffrey Frankart made Feb 23 at 2016 1:20 PM

2016-02-23T13:20:02-05:00

Yes. There are plenty of assignments where they could work in the same command and theoretically, one could end up working for another or being able to influence.
For a married couple, the command will know and take these things into account when making assignments/rater assignments, but you can't expect every command to accommodate every couple who might have the hots for each other and getting cozy in the corner.

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Feb 23 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-02-23T13:24:45-05:00

No, not if they are not in your chain of command. Of course, I do know a former Marine capatin who divorced his exwife because she was promoted to major before he was!!

Response by CWO4 Ray Fairman made Feb 23 at 2016 1:28 PM

2016-02-23T13:28:08-05:00

In the original question, Common Sense (which I will agree is not really common anymore) should look at the original reason for the "Frat Reg"and the Chain of Command aspect only... obviously it is missing. Undue influence and appearance of favoritism is recognizably absent in the stated facts of the question to any qualified observer. However as stated above not all Commanders are Leaders and thus Common Sence is no longer the rule of "Justice"

Response by SSgt Gordon Olayvar made Feb 23 at 2016 1:42 PM

2016-02-23T13:42:55-05:00

I recall one relationship in particular during the mid 80's where a couple who had grown up together, went to school and graduated. They had planned to get married right after college. one went on to become a Navy Officer and the other and Enlisted Marine after they graduated from the university. They actually saught and were given an audiance with the then Commandant of the Marine Corps Al Grey. Now I have no idea what took place during that meeting, I can say that they left the commandants office happy and a short time later the couple married.

Response by CPL Brian Clouser made Feb 23 at 2016 1:48 PM

2016-02-23T13:48:11-05:00

From my understanding fraternization does "cross" branches. I believe that since the relationship is pre-existing it is not considered fraternization.

Response by COL John Hudson made Feb 23 at 2016 2:18 PM

2016-02-23T14:18:19-05:00

UCMJ addresses this issue to ensure that existing and pre-existing relationships do not create opportunities for disharmonious association. Another example, an older Air Force Major (single) was openly seen to be too close to a young Enlisted female on a regular basis...seemingly going beyond merely 'chatting her up" on numerous occasions. The fact she was married did not act as a deterrent. He stepped over the line when his interests peaked to strongly urging this young, impressionable person to meet him at 7:00pm at a civilian drinking establishment to discuss "opportunities." The matter was referred to his installation's Inspector General office. The so-called 'association' ended immediately with both parties held harmless. While all such issues are not always so clearly defined, it's best to avoid such perceptions and always treat associates with professionalism. There's an old adage out there that "perception is reality;" close held to one that states, "where there's smoke, there's fire." Best to avoid both at all times.

Response by CPO David Sharp made Feb 23 at 2016 4:11 PM

2016-02-23T16:11:41-05:00

Do yourself a favor, ask a JAG Officer. They know the UCMJ and listen to no "Sea Lawyers". They know nothing and can ruin your career/life. A BCD is less than Honorable.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 5:28 PM

2016-02-23T17:28:54-05:00

Manual for courts martial ar 134 fraternization is define and outlined and the MCM governs all branches of the military. Also AR 600-20 army command policy outlines improper relationships. Yes you do have one year to marry once com missed. There is no grandfathering once someone in the relationship commissions. it is 1 year to the date of commission. Or the relationship must end.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 6:21 PM

2016-02-23T18:21:21-05:00

I believe it does cross over to different branches. If they want to continue the relationship then they would need to get married before the Air Force person becomes an officer. That's the only legal workaround to that situation. Otherwise the relationship would have to be terminated.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-02-23T19:08:31-05:00

As long as it does not interfere with the jobs of either, and it is not a direct sr/ sub then it's not a problem. But you will get flak for it though. So keep that shit to yourself.

Response by PO3 Michael James made Feb 23 at 2016 7:11 PM

2016-02-23T19:11:01-05:00

PFC Coffey, Sir.. I will apologize before hand.. TRUE love and Affection knows NO Boundaries..

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Feb 23 at 2016 7:14 PM

2016-02-23T19:14:30-05:00

Fraternization in between branches is not an issue unless there is a co-working issue.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 11:22 PM

2016-02-23T23:22:08-05:00

AR 600-20 4-14 (2) (b)

Response by COL Mike Walton made Feb 24 at 2016 2:24 AM

2016-02-24T02:24:13-05:00

The issues are "where do they work" and "who leads and who follows?" In my youth, I was taught that a "Sergeant is a Sergeant and a Captain is a Captain" no matter what uniform they are wearing. It has worked well for me, because in today's joint and multi-national environs, it's important to remember that while our rank establishes leadership and followship it also establishes manners and protocol.

"Where do they work" is an important question to ask. If the two of them are part of a joint organization or team; or are on temporary duty to work together on a problem or issue, then yes, it doesn't matter what service they are a part of (or in some cases, whether one's a civilian and the other's an officer or NCO) -- the fraternization rules come into play here. It's important that we military members -- enlisted, NCO, officer -- know where those boundaries are. I'll give you a good example of this:

I had seventeen enlisted Soldiers work with me and my boss, a full Colonel, in the first days of the conversion of the Presidential Palace in downtown Baghdad. They were working in teams of two or three alongside USAID, State Department, Justice Department and Agriculture Department civilians and military personnel from other services who previously were stationed in the DC area. Those Soldiers of mine were their press spokespersons, their media aides, their mouthpieces to the Iraqi people and to the people of the world watching them and their bosses -- in most cases U.S. Ambassadors or members of their senior circles -- make decisions, advise their Iraqi counterparts and working through some tough issues. They got close to those press people -- but my Soldiers, advised by me and two Sergeants Major and a First Sergeant (and each other), kept their composure and kept their urges to after we returned home and off active duty. It was one thing to have dinner with them; it's another thing to be invited to their hotel suites or rooms after duty hours even for a few seconds.

"Where do they work" is important also to "who leads and who follows". Every Soldier had a battle buddy and during my second rotation to Iraq, my battle buddy was a female LTC from Alabama. We worked together, ate dinner and traveled together, but the lines between friendship and more than that were never crossed -- because we knew that Soldiers would follow our leads and eventually we would have more issues than just the two of us "hanging together". Even the drives into town for medical care which could not be performed on base became an issue to deal with socially, morally and because we are guests in Kuwait and Iraq, a religious issue. So "who led"? I was the senior of the two of us and there were many times that another officer or a senior NCO went with us, breaking up the "buddy team" temporarily. You have to consider that when dealing with great friends and good leaders but the appropriateness and "image" of the US Military may be at stake. Now that the two of us are off active duty (and have retired), we can now be as close as we desire to be (hasn't happened...who knows...*smiling*).

In summary, fraternization depends upon three factors: the workplace environs, the potential influence between partners and between those involved in the relationship and those they lead or follow, and the perception or perceived perception that such a relationship may take shape.

Hope that my ramblings helped! Great question!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2016 2:45 AM

2016-02-24T02:45:22-05:00

If I remember correctly, it does not because it deals with being in the same chain of command. I don't feel that it should because it is 2 differant branches.

Response by SSgt Gordon Olayvar made Feb 24 at 2016 6:27 AM

2016-02-24T06:27:49-05:00

I recall another incident in the late 80's where a Marine Captain Aviator type stationed at MCAS El Toro, was briefly dating a female he believed was a civilian only to discover she was was a Marine NCO. He immediately ceased the relationship and reported-it to his command. Supposedly the guy was a no kidding top gun maverick type....an aviator warrior and no kidding outstanding Marine officer and still the command leadership took his wings and commision from him.......

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2016 5:59 PM

2016-02-24T17:59:52-05:00

Not sure what regulation it is. But it is DOD so all branches must abide. They must be married within 1 year of commission or else it is fraternization. Even if found out after the fact it is still punishable. Officer will take the brunt of the punishment but both are culpable.

Response by SSG Shafter Baker made Feb 24 at 2016 8:58 PM

2016-02-24T20:58:56-05:00

If you check with your Personnel section, you will find that about 11-14 years ago, the DOD issued directives on this very issue. Simple interpretation is that you will have a very short time frame in which to be married, or under the UCMJ you will have to terminate the relationship status as you and she will be in violation.

Response by CWO4 Ray Fairman made Feb 25 at 2016 2:51 PM

2016-02-25T14:51:46-05:00

My wife, A former USAR 1LT Nurse, and I are constantly amazed by the number of contestants on "The Amazing Race" TV Show that consistently do themselves in by not reading and comprehending the entire set of instructions they receive for the next leg of the race.
Seriously are you guys really reading and assessing the same question I am? The facts that PFC Has stated are quite clear and incident specific. Most responses are like political responses to direct questions, please lets be clear and simple and respond to the facts of his inquiry. Once again I beg for that rare commodity called common sense to be applied.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 6:26 PM

2016-03-29T18:26:33-04:00

Don't listen to half of these bathroom lawyers. It's your life bro, do what makes you happy. If you love that person who is to say who you can and cannot love. If they are in your direct chain of command then I would keep it low key but other than that who gives a shit

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 10:30 AM

2016-05-18T10:30:00-04:00

I believe if they were in a relationship before the soon to be Officer gets pin then it is ok.

Response by SGT Stuart Griffin made Mar 15 at 2017 3:32 PM

2017-03-15T15:32:43-04:00

One I directly witnessed was a 1st. Lt. dating an E-4. At the time, it was treated like it was okay as long as they were not and never would be in the same chain of command.

How it was explained was that the fraternization rules were set to prevent acts of favoritism, fraudulent or blackmailing acts, attempts to influence the actions or decisions of the chain of command, a way to gain gifts or favors, and similar.

It applied not only between officer and enlisted but also higher ranking enlisted with lower enlisted. Also, a dating relationship is not the only form of fraternization. Siblings were discouraged against being assigned to the same unit if rank was too different, close friendships were also scrutinized.

Two examples of this, one was two twin brothers that had to be assigned to different companies in the same battalion due to one being an officer and one enlisted.

The second was a company commander and one sergeant in his company that were best friends from childhood. When on duty, it stayed, "yes, sir, no sir," but after work, they often hung out and partied together.

This was very much a fraternization violation, but they managed to keep it off the radar until one of them was transferred to another base. I guess the point is, fraternization is not just about dating nor officer/enlisted, it is about preventing harm to the soldiers, unit, or the service.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2017 6:17 PM

2017-03-15T18:17:28-04:00

Depends upon the service's respective policies, MC one states that if there was a pre existing relationship 6 months prior to that you should be alright, best way to go about it would be talking to your respective recruiters and trying to contact lawyers for both branches a pose the question.

Response by SPC Thomas Bourland made Mar 15 at 2017 8:34 PM

2017-03-15T20:34:08-04:00

Been there done that, more than once aside from what your branch has in the regs there are numerous other considerations. Since the object of your affection is not in your chain of command she wont be helping your fresh career, which would be super naughty. You know those things called ethical behavior some in the armed forces tend to take them seriously. Additionally some where someone will get his or her feelers injured and when and if your chain of command tells you to end it follow your commanders advice even if you think it is unsound.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2017 9:51 PM

2017-03-15T21:51:12-04:00

so what you're saying is I shouldn't ask the battalion commander out on a date?

Response by SSG Grant Hansen made Mar 16 at 2017 1:20 PM

2017-03-16T13:20:28-04:00

Back in 1986 when I was in AIT, a guy (PFC) in my unit had a female LT request to see him. He walked into the room and without preamble, hugged and kissed her on the lips.

The Drill Sgt was shocked and looking a bit upset until he said, Drill Sgt, meet my wife!

It's not very common, but it happens more than people realize.

Response by SSG Allen Babcock made Mar 16 at 2017 4:44 PM

2017-03-16T16:44:05-04:00

I was enlisted and I met my future wife when she was enlisted, both in the Army. She went to ROTC and received her commissioning. So for many years we were a married officer/enlisted couple. Some officers didn't approve but there was nothing they could do about it

Response by PFC Shawn West made Mar 16 at 2017 6:30 PM

2017-03-16T18:30:16-04:00

While I was at Fort Stewart, I was married, while not legally separated, my wife was in Oklahoma and I was in single soldier barracks. I started dating a girl, who, eventually, I discovered, was married to an NCO in another Brigade and he was at NTC when her and I met. I was told by some friends that I'd end up getting in trouble for adultery, etc. After I found out she was married, I contacted her husband myself, who was also am MP as it turned out. He appreciated me approaching him before he knew a thing and went on to tell me that they were married but at that point it was more of a money thing than a relationship. She ended up being an absolute psycho though and fortunately, I was about to ETS. I ended the relationship by saying, "Hey, I don't think we can see each other anymore." When she asked why, I told her I had ETS'd and was back home in Kansas.

Response by PO2 Christopher Sennett made Mar 16 at 2017 8:42 PM

2017-03-16T20:42:13-04:00

Fraternization can exist between branches. It just depends on the unit you are with. Joint commands can have service members from different branches can certainly have that problem.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2017 9:09 PM

2017-03-16T21:09:50-04:00

I was in a very similar position. I am an Air Force NCO, and the woman I was nearly engaged to was about to commission as a naval medical officer. After her commission there was no conflict of interest.

We had dated since college, and we're in a committed relationaship. Her command and peers were aware of who I was. Maybe it was because it was interservice, or maybe it didn't matter to her command. Nobody seemed to care, and it never effected her career progression or promotions.

...Or maybe it's because she's a doctor and the Navy needs her more than she needs the Navy.

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Mar 16 at 2017 9:48 PM

2017-03-16T21:48:33-04:00

Listen, you bunch of liberal cry babies! You don't want to do the damned rules, DON'T FUCKING JOIN!!! Get your sorry asses out and belong to BLM or some other subversive, sissy group, the American military of men and real women does not need or appreciate your sorry asses!

Response by SSgt Michael Bailey made Mar 17 at 2017 12:04 AM

2017-03-17T00:04:59-04:00

I knew a female in the Marines that got a commission from Staff Sergeant and was married to a Gunny. Normally, if there's a pre-existing relationship, especially a marriage, it's never a problem. But, that's the Marines.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2017 2:45 AM

2017-03-17T02:45:50-04:00

If im not mistaken, they have a grace period to be able to get married or end the relationship.

Response by Sgt Andrew Pouliot made Mar 17 at 2017 2:50 AM

2017-03-17T02:50:46-04:00

I'm pretty sure an enlisted Marine can have a relationship with an Air Force officer as long as they're not in the same chain of command. Even then it's only fraternization if their personal relationship carries over into their professional one, and there aren't many instances where Marines and Air Force have joint activity.

Response by SPC Craig Miller made Mar 17 at 2017 10:24 AM

2017-03-17T10:24:33-04:00

Yeah I watched a "relationship" develop between an E-6 and an O-3 that impacted missions and both were married. It was reported, JAG investigated and not a damn thing came out of it except a divorce for the E-6 and a promotion for the O-3 along with her own company. The unfairness in enforcing rules in the name of female empowerment and social justice is one reason I am out right now.

Response by PO3 Damon Davis made Mar 17 at 2017 2:47 PM

2017-03-17T14:47:08-04:00

Where is the most integral part. If they are in your direct chain of command it's a no go. Crossing branches same applies. What people think and what the UCMJ dictates are two different things unless your command has decided it needed to amend the rule to make it more stringent. Per UCMJ art 134 factors considered are: whether it compromises the chain of command, results in appearance of partiality, or otherwise undermine good order, discipline or morale. Further the acts and circumstances must be such to lead a reasonable person experienced in military leadership to conclude good order and discipline has been prejudiced by their tendency to compromise the respect of enlisted for officers.

In a nutshell if they are in your chain no. If they are high enough to actually be over your chain, no. But you can have a relationship if there is no compromise of your chain of command. Hope that helps.

Response by MAJ Eric Neumann made Mar 17 at 2017 4:33 PM

2017-03-17T16:33:12-04:00

Time to hear from all the Sea Lawyers.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2017 10:52 PM

2017-03-17T22:52:24-04:00

My advice: this can go many ways. Don't listen to 'barracks lawyers." In the end, a commander has many options - anywhere from turning a cheek to courts martial. Talk to your JAG and see what they say - and what the going rate is at your base these days...trust me - that matters...

Response by Cpl Dan A. made Mar 18 at 2017 7:59 AM

2017-03-18T07:59:03-04:00

Well. As a Marine NCO, I was fuckin my Navy Flight Surgeon, of course an officer. And damnit, I had fun.

Response by Capt Andrew Hairston made Mar 18 at 2017 8:46 AM

2017-03-18T08:46:30-04:00

This will vary by branch, and I'll say the Marine Corps is the strictest when it comes to fraternization. For example, if an officer candidate is dating an enlisted servicemember of any branch they must be married before the candidate arrives at Brown Field or the USMC will consist anything after to be in violation.
The issue is, all branches have different regulations when it comes to fraternization. Like someone said, check with your JAG Officer as they'd be able to best answer this.

Response by SPC Elizabeth Ables made Mar 18 at 2017 2:11 PM

2017-03-18T14:11:53-04:00

I had a PLT leader who had a pre existing relationship with an enlisted marine. Once she got her commission they were given something like a year to marry or dissolve the relationship. Pre existing allows for it but there is a time limit. You would have to check with jag on the exact time limit though.

Response by SSG Barton Manuel made Mar 18 at 2017 7:24 PM

2017-03-18T19:24:42-04:00

There must have been a lot of changes since I retired. At that time it was considered fraternization only if one was in a position to influence the promotion, pay or career of another. There may have been more to it but that was the main consideration.

Response by SCPO Frank Waldron made Mar 19 at 2017 10:22 PM

2017-03-19T22:22:36-04:00

I first knew my wife in eight grade and then met her again at my cousins wedding reception when I was a second class petty officer. She was in nursing school. When she finished nursing school, she went to Officer training and became a Navy nurse.

When she heard I was going to get stuck on the carrier and not be able to make the wedding, one of the other nurses that she worked with told an Marine General who was a patient of hers in the hospital. He contacted the ships CO and suggested that for the Moral and common good of the combined services', he would appreciate anything that my CO could do to insure that I made it home in time to make the wedding.

We still have the framed letter as a memento after 442 years of marriage.

At the time, we were told that there was no problem as long as there would not be any "NO POSSIBILITY OF SUBORDINATION IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND!"

Response by SCPO Frank Waldron made Mar 19 at 2017 10:25 PM

2017-03-19T22:25:07-04:00

Any command activities we attended, the person who was in the command was the one that was in uniform and was addressed by rank and the other was the spouse.

Response by SCPO Frank Waldron made Mar 19 at 2017 10:29 PM

2017-03-19T22:29:16-04:00

We both had contacted our commands prior to getting married and had the go a head.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2017 6:30 AM

2017-03-20T06:30:43-04:00

I know this thread is in fact old but in case anyone comes across hoping to find an answer. The truth is, I have done extensive research on this topic given my past and present experience with dating in the military. The answer is, given the preexisting relationship you will not receive any punishment. Both parties will be consoled on there relationship and told there options. These options include marriage within 1 year or terminate the relationship. After the year is up that is when things get hairy so speak.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2017 11:42 AM

2017-05-14T11:42:10-04:00

If you are in a pre existing relationship then there is a 1 year grace period from commissioning.

Response by SGT Louise Hawthorne made Feb 18 at 2018 6:31 PM

2018-02-18T18:31:14-05:00

The answer is no. Unless the chain of command includes both of you, conflict of interest is involved.

Response by PO3 Rich Barker made Feb 22 at 2018 7:02 PM

2018-02-22T19:02:22-05:00

I dated an Air Force Officer who I met far from command so it wasn’t a problem plus I never discussed my personal life with anyone especially the squids at my command