Does leadership go up the chain of command?

Cpl Kevin Henderson — Fri, 19 Jul 2019 21:12:45 -0400

I was recently talking with some people at a birthday party, and one person made a comment that "leadership goes up the chain of command". His opinion was that the qualities and character of the "lowest man on the totem pole " are a reflection of the quality of their leader, and their leader's leader, and so on all the way to the top. Do you believe there's any truth to that?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2019 10:08 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:08:33 -0400

"You're either coaching it or allowing it to happen."
That is as true in the military as it is in sports.
That's not to say that a COL allowed a Lance Coolie to get a DUI, the Lance Coolie next to him allowed it to happen.
But that Lance Coolie allowed it to happen because the CPL and SGT that deal with him 12 hours a day allow things to happen, because the Staff and Gunny that deal with them allow things to happen, because the CPT they work for allows things to happen, etc.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2019 10:09 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:09:01 -0400

Slightly, i can see what they are saying, and have seen it some too.

However I picture it as there are just good and bad service members. There could be a great squared away E-4, but his E-5/E-6 could be shit. Do you then credit that he is good because of his bad leaders, no you say he is good because its a per person thing.

Same situation in reverse, are you going to say that squared away and great NCO's are bad because of a bad 'Joe'?

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jul 19 at 2019 11:39 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:39:01 -0400

I hate cliche' answers because they don't focus much on reality vs. nirvana. Seniors should lead and work to have their juniors grow up to take over. Juniors should be in sponge mode and learn what good leadership can do for you. It makes life easier for everyone around, including you, and keeps people alive. The more senior you get, the more expendable you should be because any number of your staff can fill in or take over. At some point you'll realize like I did that some leaders should go further than you. At that point, push them up and support them. Others should be held back. Make that happen too. Why? If your focus is on getting stuff done while taking care of your people, you'll work to limit the flaming Alpha Hotels while giving those who have vast potential opportunity. Good leaders absorb the arrows from above so their good folk can get on with their lives. Sometimes you get damaged by those arrows. But then again, bringing your people home alive is vastly superior to the alternatives.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2019 9:00 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:00:55 -0400

I will refrain from commenting about the very top of the military chain of command.

I feel that your leadership traits have the greatest effect on your immediate sphere of influence. It's not just a one way street. Many good senior leaders have recognized that a subordinate may have leadership strength in an area that they are weak in, and will allow that junior leader to take over for the task.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Jul 20 at 2019 10:23 AM

TSgt David Holman — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 10:23:02 -0400

If taken with a grain of salt, yes. I have been in commands where there was a "break" in the chain when it came to leadership, but the people below continued to do exactly what they needed to do to make sure the people were taken care of. A good leader will be consistent regardless of who is over them, at least in the eyes of those they lead. If there is a need for closed door conversation to maintain that leadership, they take that route instead of faltering in their care for the people. So, in general, yes, your command can influence you as a leader, however, good leaders will continue to lead despite the chain. Hopefully that makes sense.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2019 10:24 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 10:24:57 -0400

When I was in the Corps we had a saying. "The shit bird doesnt fall far from the shit tree". I believe that many, not all subordinates are a direct reflection of their leadership. As a leader you have the ability to influence policy and the morale of your unit. A good leader has the ability to make those around him great. While a bad one can ruin a unit in a heartbeat.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jul 20 at 2019 11:24 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 11:24:08 -0400

Some people succeed because of their leaders. Others succeed despite them. Same can be said of failure.

I once had a PFC who was radically overweight - like young male taping out in the 34% range overweight. I was this PFCs third NCO in the unit, and he was assigned to me because I was the NCO that my 1SG gave all of the "leadership challenges" to. 1SG, CSM, CO, and BC all took an active interest in this kid (he was well liked and phenomenal at what he did, MOS-wise). He ended up being chaptered on weight control. You can't tell me that three junior NCOs (I was a SSG at the time), two senior NCOs, and two Commanders were ALL failures as leaders. He just failed as a Soldier.

So yes, as a general philosophy, it works. As a specific philosophy, not so much.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jul 20 at 2019 12:03 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:03:32 -0400

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=leadership+as+a+a+manifestation+of+knowledge+nicholas+allix&btnG=

There's an article on this page you might find of interest, the link here, I think, should let you download it, I'd thought it of interest, on leadership, I'd sent it in as a separate thread, though the link I'd used was apparently giving aggravation, so try the one here, you should be able to get the PDF as a freebie, I was able to from here....

Sorry...

... but your computer or network may be sending automated queries. To protect our users, we can't process your request right now.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jul 20 at 2019 12:04 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:04:29 -0400

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/35435368/Allix__N._and_Gronn__P._-_Leadership_as_a_Manifestation_of_Knowledge.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DLeadershipas_a_Manifestation_of_Knowledg.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A%2F20190720%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20190720T160339Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=d15f31e23cc88b03a6f1db6172f6bd4389767ab124f9d0c55c0835543dca87ca

Here's the link from that page, showing the title, which I'd actually found quite interesting phrasing....

Allix__N._and_Gronn__P._-_Leadership_as_a_Manifestation_of_Knowledge.pdf

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jul 20 at 2019 1:18 PM

SSG Brian G. — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 13:18:43 -0400

There is truth to it. Take for instance a previous post here on RP in which the poster called out the fact that leadership routinely flouted the regulation about smoking and tobacco use and yet expected that the juniors would follow the regulations. Some posters commenting their experiences that did not contradict the poster.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jul 20 at 2019 7:01 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 19:01:56 -0400

Yeah, I think if the least powerful were held to high standards, or demonstrated high standards, and that was a reflection of the culture and higher echelons, then leadership can move upward. I don't think it always happens, but it is plausible, and maybe should be the gold standard of leadership.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2019 10:09 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:09:10 -0400

It's not 100% true, but also not 100% false. Leaders definitely influence troops in either a positive or negative way, and sometimes they do impact a subordinate so strongly that it completely changes their trajectory. But there are some knuckleheads who will keep behaving or performing poorly no matter how good their leadership. And there are some warriors that will persevere and do the right thing no matter how messed up people above and around them are. And of course everybody else on a sliding scale of the spectrum in between.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2019 12:55 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 12:55:26 -0400

It absolutely should, but not always.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jul 21 at 2019 2:11 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:11:45 -0400

Leadership goes down, across and up the chain of command.
I learned as much about leadership from my peers and subordinates as I ever learned from my supervisors.

Response by SSgt Cynthia Hamilton made Jan 3 at 2020 7:44 PM

SSgt Cynthia Hamilton — Fri, 03 Jan 2020 19:44:50 -0500

Yep. If a troop anywhere along the chain is deficient, the viability of the chain ends there. When it the CinC, the entire apparatus is vulnerable. Witness the assassination of Solimein yesterday.