Does Military Rank define the person?

2015-01-20T11:43:43-05:00

The reason why I ask is simple… I was asked recently why I “only” retired as an E-6 Technical Sergeant. Then this person kept asking if I was a problem child or just could not pass the test. I laughed and then explained.
I explained that I was not a problem child and I can pass any test I want – but that I was happy at that rank. It was not about money or supervision or anything. I just enjoyed working and being where I was in my career. Plain and simple…then I asked him…Was I wrong in what I did? Should I have strived to be more? I said no – I think I did everything right for me – I accomplished more than I ever thought I could in 20 years. Think about that for a minute.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 11:51 AM

2015-01-20T11:51:13-05:00

I often use an expression, "Not all money is good money."

You simply can't put price tags on happiness, self confidence, great relationships, having no regrets, and personal pride!

Sounds like you hit those areas in your career, regardless of your rank or paycheck....keep on smiling!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 11:59 AM

2015-01-20T11:59:41-05:00

TSgt Kevin Buccola, military rank does not define you... unless you let it. Some people put a lot of focus and energy into progressing through the rank system and others do not. Sometimes you see retirees who still use thier rank (think of the 'experts' you see on news shows). As in your case, for other people, rank is less important to them.

Personally, I find myself somewhere in the middle. I'm proud to have progressed through the enlisted ranks (E1-E8), but I had no problem "starting over" in the Officer Corps. I'm asked constantly by NCOs (and some officers) why I would transition so late knowing that I'll likely retire as a Captain instead of a Command Sergeant Major. For me, it was an easy decision. For me, it's more about the journey, than it is about the destination. I wouldn't change a thing.

Something else we must consider though is that not everyone thinks like we do. People will see that you were "only" a TSgt when you retired, just as they'll see that I was "only" a CPT and they'll assume something went wrong.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 12:01 PM

2015-01-20T12:01:38-05:00

TSgt Kevin Buccola This is a good thread. I think sometimes people get hung up on rank defining the person. I was only a private when I was in, but that doesn't mean I don't have leadership skills or abilities. I ran my own firm for almost 13 years prior to moving to federal govt and sat on the executive board of directors for a chamber of commerce, as well as other nonprofits. I sort of feel like folks look at my profile and think I'm a washout because of the rank. I am proud of my service albeit short, but there's more to me than meets the eye.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Jan 20 at 2015 12:18 PM

2015-01-20T12:18:02-05:00

TSgt Kevin Buccola, I've never been a big fan of pushing people into a system of "up or out", I have known several people who love doing their jobs, and have no desire to get promoted when those above them try to push them to do so. I think you did right by yourself, and I'm sure you more than did right by those around you. When you are happy with the job you are doing, money has very little motivating factor. Those whom, I've seen let their rank define them are usally the most toxic leaders in the bunch, because they only cared about getting to the top at the expense of everyone around and under them.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 12:42 PM

2015-01-20T12:42:47-05:00

TSgt Kevin Buccola, This was such a common discussion on the Active Duty side while I was still active. In short it's your career and what makes you happy in your career is what counts, not others opinions.

Being in a technical career field, I learned quickly you promote yourself out of "real" work. I am successful leader and can manage work centers when need be, but I much rather be doing the "grunt work" than pushing papers all day. So I can see where you are coming from.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 20 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-01-20T12:54:59-05:00

TSgt Kevin Buccola, in my career field family there are more then a handful of folks that never want to become a SNCO because at that level you stop doing the technical "stuff" and start doing the "management" stuff. While I will say with the changes in HYT for the AD side, there is a common ideology that if you dont make X rank by X years you must not be a "good" troop or have something in your record negative. There is also some jaded views on rank since we tend to promote more earlier now then we did just 2 decades ago.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Jan 20 at 2015 1:08 PM

2015-01-20T13:08:28-05:00

I may grant you that rank, to some degree, defines a person in terms of prior military accomplishment - I think the larger target is that the military defines and refines that person. Many times in interacting with others you can perceive from their bearing, cadence, and comments that they have served in their lifetime. It just tends to make all of us that little bit different.

Rank, once out of service for the most part, is a fleeting general gauge of accomplishment. Rank has little to do with accomplishments outside those military walls. It's just another number in the data bank.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 20 at 2015 1:50 PM

2015-01-20T13:50:12-05:00

Who is happy? He who is content with all that he has. Who is wealthy? Same answer...

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 3:41 PM

2015-01-20T15:41:22-05:00

No rank does not define me but my military career does. For me it was only about being the best I could be where ever that got me.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 4:34 PM

2015-01-20T16:34:57-05:00

Definitely not. There's so many more factors behind someone than a rank. I didn't enlist until I was 30 years old. In theory, I could've been much "further ahead" than I was at that age, especially in comparison to an active duty peer.

I am satisfied with my progress and honorable service. As long as you can say the same, there is nothing wrong and nothing to feel guilty about, TSgt Kevin Buccola

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Jan 20 at 2015 5:49 PM

2015-01-20T17:49:40-05:00

While I do not think that rank defines a person, nor should it, I think that, for a person not to achieve a certain rank by historical or regulatory norms, creates the perception that the person is somehow unmotivated or ineligible for the next higher grade due to incompetence and/or performance/disciplinary issues. In most organizations, and the military is certainly not the exception (and is probably more-so than most), people in those organizations want to succeed and success is measured in large part by promotion to higher positions and responsibility. Right or wrong, not being promoted with your peers signals failure (even if intentional).

I have mixed emotions about the “up or out” policy of the military. Part of me thinks that, if a person does not want to be promoted and wants to retain his/her current rank, what harm does that do? The other part thinks that the military, by design, is competitive and, to be a valuable member of the team, you need to be competitive in everything you do, including competition with your peers for promotion. There is no place for complacency in the military; one should always strive to better oneself, and that includes seeking greater responsibility (and, with that, rank). Getting comfortable in one’s position and rank (and not continuing to seek greater responsibility and promotion) appears to me to be counterproductive and sends the wrong message to more junior personnel.

My dad, who served for over 42 years on active duty as an Army officer, once told me that he had always opposed the up or out policy. He used an example from right after WWII to support his position. He stated that he had a soldier in his unit who was the absolute best bulldozer operator he had ever seen. There was nothing this soldier could not do with his bulldozer. That is all this soldier wanted to do; drive that bulldozer. He had no interest in being promoted to Sergeant. As a result, he was finally put out of the Army for not being promoted by a certain date. What did he do when he got out? Got a job as a bulldozer operator and probably did that for the rest of his working life. His point was that the Army had lost a good man because they wanted him to do something that he did not want to do. He would have been perfectly happy driving that bulldozer as a junior enlisted soldier for the rest of life, but the Army would not allow that. I can see his point, but I think that allowing him to stay would have a detrimental impact on the unit as it signifies that continuous improvement, seeking increased responsibility and self-growth is not important. I think that is the wrong message to send.

There are many civilian companies that don’t care if you stay at the same pay grade and job forever. Frankly, I think the military has it right on this one. Up or out…

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made Jan 20 at 2015 6:39 PM

2015-01-20T18:39:57-05:00

I was issued my first badge when I was 18 years old. My Dad, who was a Deputy Sheriff at the time, pinned it on me he congratulated me and said, "Always remember.... The badge doesn't make the man. The man makes the badge."

I've NEVER forgotten that.

So, me personally, I don't think that the rank defines the person.

Look at our Country's military history. We've had some amazing Privates and some amazing Commanders In Chief. They influenced, provided purpose, and bettered the situation and/or organization.

It wasn't their rank that did all that. It was their character, intellect, and prudent judgment.

Fairly, there have been instances where their rank made certain politics and/or inroads possible. But, at the end of the day it was the person not the stripe, bar, or star....

Just my $0.02 worth.

Response by SPC Christopher Morehouse made Jan 20 at 2015 6:43 PM

2015-01-20T18:43:33-05:00

I spent 6 years in an got out an E4. If rank defines a person I must be a huge tool.

No rank does not define a person, a persons actions, and in the Army how they uphold the Army values defines the person. I was not good at navigating the rank structure, and spent the last 3 years in chasing my E-5, but damn it I was a good soldier, and it has made me a better person, rank be damned.

Response by SGT Beau Thomas made Jan 20 at 2015 7:27 PM

2015-01-20T19:27:15-05:00

As a member of the TXARNG and former member of the UTNG, I have personally seen many Spc and below who have Masters and Bachelors degrees. Promotion in the Guard only happens when a slot opens which in many cases takes years. I even had one Spc who was our 1SG supervisor in his civilian job. So rank doesn't define a person or denote intelligence, it simply is what it is.

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Jan 20 at 2015 7:32 PM

2015-01-20T19:32:12-05:00

I believe you have to consider the source when being asked questions like that. The fact you retired negates an "only" anything. Be proud of the success you achieved and of the person you are.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Jan 20 at 2015 8:16 PM

2015-01-20T20:16:29-05:00

TSGT Kevin Buccola...Thank you for serving! It sounds to me that you totally enjoyed what you were doing for the U.S. Air Force self satisfaction brings the best out of anyone.

Response by SGT Bobby F. made Jan 20 at 2015 8:16 PM

2015-01-20T20:16:47-05:00

Absolutely not, categorically no, emphatically deny, etc.

Speaking purely of people currently still in, I've met people of all ranks on every end of the spectrum. Both the worst and the best of Soldiers I've met have shared the same ranks. Your actions define you as a person, plain and simple.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 8:19 PM

2015-01-20T20:19:43-05:00

No. But it can define the person's behavior--if they want or allow it.

I have two good friends--one a recent SGM, former 1SG, and another who recently left his 1SG billet and returned to MSG. Both set aside the "persona" that they thought the 1SG job needed them to have. Both are happier people.

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made Jan 20 at 2015 8:33 PM

2015-01-20T20:33:35-05:00

I definitely does not matter. One of my closest friends TSgt Grant Kohler gave me my first salute on the day I commissioned and I respect the heck out of the man he became after the service. He had a great service career, got married to his childhood friend, studied his heart out as a civilian, and is now a registered nurse back in the home town we grew up in. There is no one in our circle or friends or family that addresses us by rank. They just know we served...

Also, as a former CE guy, I always know I can call Grant when I need to fix to something that looks like it's broke for good! :)

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jan 20 at 2015 11:50 PM

2015-01-20T23:50:15-05:00

It doesn't define the person but it sure as hell can enhance ones personality.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 11:55 PM

2015-01-20T23:55:18-05:00

The rank does not define the person. You can be a great Private, Specialist, Sergeant, 1SG, CSM etc or you can be not so great Private, Specialist, Sergeant, 1SG, CSM. We've seen them all on both sides of the coin and in all the ranks. I've known officers of every rank who I thought were just outstanding, and I've known those who I thought egotisical asses going from LT to General Officer.

I've seen sections, platoons, units, battalions make a change in what felt like over night just because of a change in those who departed and new leaders stepped in to take over. I've know great Platoon Sergeants who made lousey 1SG and even worse CSMs.

In my 22 plus years service I can count 4 CSMs who I thought were outstanding and positively impacted their battalions and individual Soldiers and young leaders. I've also known those who felt it was their job to belittle, degrade Soldiers and young NCOs everyday!

No the rank does not define the person, nor does the person define the rank.....they define themselves at whatever rank and positions they hold. Good question TSgt Kevin Buccola

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2015 12:01 AM

2015-01-21T00:01:40-05:00

My class had to pleasure to talk to MG Ashley, here at Fort Huachuca. This is what he said about rank.

"My rank is not me. My rank doesnt define me. My rank helps me open doors for others."

He made many great points earlier but I think that one hit home. You had a plan and stuck with it. No one should ever be mad at or belittle you because you accomplished your goals.

Response by MSgt Kenneth Seif made Jan 21 at 2015 12:18 AM

2015-01-21T00:18:37-05:00

I had some friends I knew while in and they just didn't want the added responsibility with the increased rank and declined to test so they were sure not to advance. Nothing wrong with that after all with the new promotion system going into place only suck asses will gain Msgt and above rank now.

Response by TSgt Kevin Buccola made Jan 21 at 2015 9:55 AM

2015-01-21T09:55:10-05:00

I want to thank everyone for your responses

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Jan 21 at 2015 8:27 PM

2015-01-21T20:27:00-05:00

TSgt Kevin Buccola, I say unequivocally, military rank does not define the person, nor do I think you should feel compelled to defend yourself or apologize to others for having served your country honorably. "It is the heart that makes a man rich. He is rich according to what he is, not according to what he has." - Henry Ward Beecher

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Jan 22 at 2015 10:01 AM

2015-01-22T10:01:54-05:00

I am going to be the voice of dissent. Looking at all the responses, I think that a vast majority (if not all) state that rank does not define a person. I will argue that point. Rank DOES define a person. Here is why I say that:

1. Holding a specific rank determines/defines the level of responsibilities you are given.
2. It defines the amount of pay you receive.
3. It determines how much respect is afforded to you (respect afforded to you is based on rank....respect earned is what you earn from others, more or less).

Now, keep in mind that rank defining a person, truly is nothing more or less then any other title.... Mr. Ms. Mrs. Professor, Dr..... how you see this definition or use it, THAT is up to you. Another aspect is do you control the definition or does it control you? Do you HAVE to have the income, prestige, responsibility of the next position up? Are you happy with where you are or striving for the formal recognition of the next level?

Rank defines you. It places you in a specific level or context for others to understand. How you handle or perceive this placement is all yours. Own it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 11:06 AM

2015-01-22T11:06:52-05:00

I have seen high speed privates, worthless NCOs, and everything in between. However I think everyone has some sort of stereotype with vets with lower ranks but like many members posted learning about the individual really sets them apart from the rank.

If I could go back I'd stay an E-5. Doing hands on all the time, only worried about my guys for the most part. Ah, now it's power point this, or assisting different units with that. However, now I want to be that crusty CSM that repels out of no where and does that e-5 stuff again and say "Hey Hot dog, hows that work?" haha. Good times, good times.

Response by MSgt Rob Weston made Jan 22 at 2015 12:15 PM

2015-01-22T12:15:15-05:00

As long as you do not regret the decision, that's all that matters

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 12:39 PM

2015-01-22T12:39:49-05:00

I have been asked the same question from people. And like i try to tell people that ain't within the military that it is not a race to the top. That yes some people are natural born leaders small group, big group, or larger. Also there are the onces that only do good with small or vice versa. Like myself i like to lead but also right beside the Soldiers turning wrenchs.

On my option you get out what you put in but with that being saud you also have to find where you fit in and are comfortable.

But when people ask me that. Like your only a staff sergeant (E-6) i always respond with, " your only a civilan that never served your country" and to see their facial expression is priceless.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 1:18 PM

2015-01-22T13:18:34-05:00

I think that if we are destined to define a person by what chevrons are on their sleeves, then we are truly 'window shopping' an individual. I do not know why anyone would criticize another for the length that it took them to achieve a rank (in the National Guard/Reserve Component, there are limited spots for each rank and job). I've known enough junior enlisted who exhibit the leadership qualities that I would be damned proud to have in my unit, and are just unable to get to that next level. But, at no time would I limit them by solely their rank, and degrade them that way.

And, honestly, we all are trained and proficient to accomplish our jobs. Rank should never interfere with that accomplishment.

Response by PO1 Jess McKellar made Jan 22 at 2015 4:51 PM

2015-01-22T16:51:47-05:00

I also retired as an E-6. While I wish I would have been motivated to go a bit farther I also saw what it took for most people to advance beyond that level. It was a lot of volunteer service, collateral duties, and qualifying for out of rate watch stations that I would never stand. (I don't know if the advancement process works the same in other services). I preferred to be graded on my job performance and didn't agree that going above and beyond was part of my job.

That being said I think back to people in the next couple pay grades above me. While some were decent, a few were not. I keep thinking that had I advanced, I would have been in that position and saved a few guys from crappy leadership.

I guess what I am saying is that it is OK to look out for yourself to an extent but sit back now and think about what possibilities and how much more influence you might have by moving up a rung on the ladder provided you remember where you came from.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 6:49 PM

2015-01-23T18:49:03-05:00

We make the rank, it doesn't make us. Many people today don't understand that because the focus has changed from the team to individual accomplishments. Our jobs have become defined by blocks on a piece of paper that must be checked in order to prove success and determine your value to the team. The unfortunate reality is that most people that focus on those blocks are more concerned with self than the mission or the team. Most importantly people must be happy where they are and achieve goals based on their strengths so they can be a useful asset to the team. Rank means nothing if you don't have the skills and leadership abilities to compliment it.

Response by COL Mark Held made Jan 28 at 2015 6:57 PM

2015-01-28T18:57:14-05:00

You can define your career as a success and that you were a in a profession not a job.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Mar 31 at 2015 3:07 PM

2015-03-31T15:07:28-04:00

Rank matters when you trying get to a point of dictating policy rather than taking it. The wrong person with too much rank can easily destroy basic trust and respect.

Rank doesn't matter when getting to a point of dictating policy isn't your career objective. I would say though its far easier to avoid toxic leadership or career struggles if someone is moving up. Better to be the employer doing the hiring and firing, than to be fired because someone in the office set you up to fail in order to look good.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Mar 31 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-03-31T15:11:18-04:00

I think the truth of the matter is some people make their rank define themselves. Just like they allow their awards to define them. While I don't agree with that we see it time and time again. Some people just need that justification in their world for some reason.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 31 at 2015 3:21 PM

2015-03-31T15:21:11-04:00

From what I can recall due to prior experience, its usually the ignorant civilian with zero prior service time who thinks or judges a retired SM because they don't have enough rank or something to make them say, "Oh..." and "Wow". Saying some civilians are ignorant is a nice way of putting it, but its an understatement.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 19 at 2015 9:22 PM

2015-04-19T21:22:18-04:00

No it does not. It opens gates, but once you are in, it's how you execute that matters. An analogy for you is this. I went through the gates guarded by a NG PFC who looked like he was 60. He did not care and good for him.

Response by SGT David T. made May 15 at 2015 12:03 PM

2015-05-15T12:03:48-04:00

Too many of our colleagues allow their rank to define who they are. When I was getting ready to transition out of the army after 9 years of service, various NCOs in my unit would say things about how a nobody E-5 wouldn't be able to get very far on the outside. It is almost comical the overinflated sense of self importance that some individuals display. Although I was "only" an E-5 when I got out. I have since gone to college and earned a Bachelors degree then a Masters Degree and now I am working on my PhD. On top of that I have a great career as an Army civilian making a much better living than I was when I was in. But most importantly I am much happier now. I do not regret joining the Army. I value those experiences, the people, the places I have been and the things that I have done. It was simply time for me to move on to something else. In my current career, I get the best of both worlds. I work for an organization that I love and has been a part of my life since I was 19 years old without having to make sacrifice after sacrifice.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2015 8:38 AM

2015-08-17T08:38:19-04:00

This is a great thread. I agree with you that rank does not define the person. Sometimes the lessons we learn, the wisdom we have, the subject knowledge we hold cannot be defined by our rank.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2017 2:18 PM

2017-05-27T14:18:48-04:00

Rank means very little once you leave the service. Also,achieving a certain rank doesn't define a person's skills, abilities, or competence. Let your performance speak for itself.

Response by CPT Leo Coleman made Jul 7 at 2023 4:18 PM

2023-07-07T16:18:13-04:00

It's quite simple. The higher your rank, the better and smarter person you are. Reserve component people are only better and smarter people during drills, annual training, and other active duty periods.

Response by SFC Kevin Childers made Oct 30 at 2023 8:00 AM

2023-10-30T08:00:30-04:00

Promotion never defines the person. I've had subordinates who were in fields the promoted any minimally qualified individuals and others the promoted seemingly only upon death or retirement of one of it's senior members.

i.e. CJ, had a wall covered with his 'Critical' MOS promotion list. They promoted only one person in that year. He was lucky to be that one.