Does more 'Time in Service' make you accountable for others in your rank?

2016-05-21T11:42:23-04:00

I have not been able to locate any regulation for this. I'm hoping I can be pointed in the right direction for an answer. I was told that a soldier who has more time in service than another of the same rank has a level of authority which enables him/her to issue commands, corrective action, etc. Is this true? A practical example would be the soldier with more time telling the other(s) of same rank and lesser TIS to stand at parade rest when they are addressing them or demanding similar courtesies to that of an NCO.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 11:50 AM

2016-05-21T11:50:02-04:00

yes tis is a big, but i would not have gone that far unless absolutely needed

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 11:55 AM

2016-05-21T11:55:44-04:00

AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, 2–19. Precedence of relative grade, enlisted Soldiers

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 11:56 AM

2016-05-21T11:56:14-04:00

I think time in grade is the first tie breaker, followed by time in service.

Response by MSgt Stephen Green made May 21 at 2016 12:13 PM

2016-05-21T12:13:02-04:00

Not sure about the Army but in the Air Force that's one way we determine who is higher ranking but unfortunately we go on Date of Rank and then Time in Service. But that is a way of having the more experienced one to have the charge but we all know that isn't always the case!

Response by MSG Pat Colby made May 21 at 2016 12:27 PM

2016-05-21T12:27:26-04:00

One aspect of the Army that I do not miss at all. I despised those SPC's and SGT's on "Power Trips" and trying to pull rank on their peers and Locking their heels. Don't fall into that trap. The vast majority of NCO's will agree that Right is Right. On The Spot Corrections are usually taken well IF it's done in a professional manner. As a MSG, if I happened to be 8^ and a SPC corrected me, I usually thanked them for squaring me away. (Yes, even MSG's make mistakes. Don't be all OCD.) Nobody wants to look like a dirtbag. If you must, take your peers to your next higher NCO and address the issue with the three of you present. Leadership is not a popularity contest, but you don't have to be a jerk about it though.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made May 21 at 2016 12:41 PM

2016-05-21T12:41:28-04:00

Laugh and move on, unless the soldier described is in a leadership position. ie TM leader or SQ leader what can the power tripping idiot really do that carries weight. Just my opinion and yes I ran into those types in the past.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 21 at 2016 12:45 PM

2016-05-21T12:45:53-04:00

Officers have lineal numbers. I'm going to use a ridiculous scenario to give example.
If I and Major Benotz are out performing reconnaissance and:
__ We have the same date of rank
__ We are both line officers
__ My lineal number is 3 and Major Benotz lineal number is 2
__ We find a battalion where the senior man alive is a Captain
__ The Battalion is in the middle of a combat crap sandwich and need a CO now
Major Benotz would assume command and I would be his subordinate.

In general it is a bad idea to spend a lot of time worrying whose in charge based on lineal numbers or who should assume the position based on date of rank.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 4:59 PM

2016-05-21T16:59:50-04:00

I have seen Soldiers with same rank but having more TIS, be put in charge of the lessor TIS Soldiers. Also I have been counselled by a SPC who had more TIS than I did. It depends on the squad leader or NCOIC and what authority they pass on. In my unit they tend to ask for Senior TIS volunteers then send lessor TIS same rank to that Soldier. Squad leader uses it to develop skills in the squad. Parade rest is an NCO command, unless it is put out by leadership that certain courtesy practices will be done to teach respect in the ranks. It has to come from leadership not the non NCO individual. It is respectful to stand at ease while the Soldier in charge is giving instruction aka leadership position being respected.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 21 at 2016 7:13 PM

2016-05-21T19:13:04-04:00

Had to laugh on this one; not because the question isn't great but how it can play out. I did a career in a small staff corps. Yes there was a TIG thing for deciding what seat you sat at during the dining in for tie breakers. I only recall it being useful when the OPSO would say send the senior LT out on this one but that was more related to experience. The laugh part is our officer directory went by lineal number. As a new guy, I was on page 45 or whatever. Didn't improve much and even at senior O-4 it seemed like I was on page 14. Didn't pay attention to it until I was a senior O-6 and noticed I was on page 1. Seems like being on page one anointed you with a greasy halo or something because nobody messed with you. Page "oners" were also the ones in running for flag so it made sense not to piss off a future flag.

Response by CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols made May 21 at 2016 9:13 PM

2016-05-21T21:13:19-04:00

TIG shipmate. Pure and simple. I was the youngest as well as the lowest TIS in my department of 5 E-6's with way more TIS than me. My TIG date was one month ealier than the senior E-6. One guess who was the NEW leading Petty Officer of my department - ME. Don't let them run Bravo Sierra on you. This is the Military, not some social club. Good luck and cover your 6. Be fair and always know your regs so they don't scuddle you to superiors.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 21 at 2016 9:21 PM

2016-05-21T21:21:25-04:00

I would say it does. Even if it's not in a reg (I'm not sure on that) the senior TIG member should step up and realize that he or she should take responsibility for the group as the senior member.

Response by SPC Brian Mason made May 22 at 2016 1:55 PM

2016-05-22T13:55:29-04:00

A soldier that entered the military before another one, yet holds the same rank, should by regulations of course have more seniority. However, one soldier may be assigned a role that puts them over other soldiers and he/she may be newer than the other soldier who has more TIG.
Ex: I got early promotion to Specialist along with one other fellow Medic during my first deployment. Before a 2nd deployment, we got 2 soldiers from Korea, one who was/is very high speed. Drum had started to implement more Corporals and he was promoted a couple of months before we left again. I had more TIS than he did, but being the soldier he is, he was chosen for promotion. It can happen, especially when there are slots that have to be filled. At the time, I was working on promotion points and such and was working toward E-5, not E-4/CPL.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 22 at 2016 3:26 PM

2016-05-22T15:26:39-04:00

Actually it makes us accountable to our peers. We should set the example and lead the group in all or most area's.

Response by SCPO Stephen Alexander made May 22 at 2016 5:55 PM

2016-05-22T17:55:34-04:00

Seniority is based on time in grade not time in service.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made May 23 at 2016 10:27 AM

2016-05-23T10:27:39-04:00

Not really. If you've got a garbage service member who got busted down, his Time In Service means absolutely zip. Time in grade is where it really counts. Hell, I know PVTs who have a Time in service of 20 years... isn't too impressive since they're currently in the Brig.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 12:10 PM

2016-05-23T12:10:33-04:00

Time in Service means that one has more experience. But, remember some have 20 years experience and some have 1 year of experience 20 times.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 7:22 AM

2016-05-24T07:22:02-04:00

Unless specifically designated to have positional authority, someone of the same rank would need substantially more TIS in order to issue commands. The corrective action would depend on how your command handles it. The courtesies required to be shown to NCOs would not fall into play unless the previously mentioned positional authority (like LPO for a Navy division). Hope that answered you well enough.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 12:09 PM

2016-05-24T12:09:29-04:00

First of all, no where does it say that SPC stands at Parade Rest to a SPC. That is reserved for Soldiers addressing a higher ranking NCO. Second, as stated AR 600-20 determines precedence of rank. What that means is if there are two SPCs and someone needs to be in charge, it will forst go to the Soldier with more Time in Grade, then if both are still equal, whoever has more Time In Service. It doesn't mean you can go around asking other SPCs how much TIS they have and whoever has less than you has to pick up trash.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 11:40 AM

2016-05-25T11:40:55-04:00

Time in service no...date of rank, yes

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 1:42 PM

2016-05-25T13:42:55-04:00

Do what you are told. If you are given corrective action is because you failed to do something properly. There is no need for barracks lawyers. It's not about you. It's never about you.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 7:03 PM

2016-05-25T19:03:54-04:00

The way that I see it is that if you have more TIS you should take it upon yourself to make sure that your counterparts are doing the right thing and if you have no guidience then take it upon yourself to find out what needs to be done and dish out the tasks

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 6:42 AM

2016-05-29T06:42:00-04:00

Time in service is irrelevant. Only time in grade. Thank you MSG Davis for dropping the paragraph and line. It should also be remembered to NOT confuse rank with authority, some one has to not only out rank you but also be in authority over to administer any form of disciplinary action, and any non-formal they need to take care of custom am courtesy.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2016 11:41 PM

2016-06-13T23:41:56-04:00

I don't know for Army but for Navy especially Seabees where it's a small community you could have an E4 with four years and a Turbo Crow E4 with 9 months in the one with 4 years will be given positional authority over the one with 9months but that's just seabees. Or I've seen an E3 with three years and an E6 cross rate out of the fleet be put under said E3 it's just about who can do the job better for us rank doesn't really mean anything to us except for formalities and crap.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 14 at 2017 3:52 PM

2017-03-14T15:52:54-04:00

It's at least a tradition that date of rank be a differentiation among service members with the same rank for protocol purposes. I don't know if this translates well into enlisted grades or everyday situations. A commander or supervisor may take date of rank into account when designating a team leader when no NCO is available, or he or she may look for other discriminators, such as demonstrated previous leadership successes. Without such command guidance, it's basically a game of "mine is bigger than yours." Mutual respect is the best course of action for junior enlisted and officers alike--there is no virtue among Second Lieutenants.