Does spit and polish really equate to good leadership?

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 19:39:56 -0400

I am not saying that having a professional image or wearing a uniform properly is bad thing. My question rhetorically, is just because someone has boots that look like mirrors and a perfectly pressed uniform really make them good leaders?

I believe the answer is no it does not. There is pride and there is setting the example. But these are only a few of the traits that we expect good leaders to have. Big picture we want well rounded people in leadership positions, not just "toy soldiers," that look the part.

In history if you look at photos of General's MacArthur and Patton as well as Adm Nimitz, they look like they would barely pass an open ranks inspection, with their wrinkled uniforms and floppy head gear, sans Patton since he always wore a helmet of course. At the same time they were some of the best leaders we will ever have seen in our history.

To reiterate I believe that we should set a professional image. I have seen in my career some individuals that were spit and polish and that's about it. When it came to dealing with people lower rank or their piers the alienated everyone. No one liked them and wanted to see them fail. At the same time I have known people that wore the uniform professionally but were concerned with what I feel are more important in the other tenants of being a professional leader.

I have grown up with the concept that Officers wear fake leather for a reason. We have other more important issues to deal with like managing our programs and leading our people.

Not attacking those who are spit and polish. Just wanted to see other peoples thoughts are on it. I imagine growing Air Force culture may be different in mindset to other services.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Sep 21 at 2014 7:42 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 19:42:04 -0400

While it may indicate someone that cares to look the "part", if their actions do not back it up, then they are just "board pretty".

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2014 8:12 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:12:10 -0400

Sir, not any one given thing equates to good leadership. However, there are numerous indicators across a broad spectrum that indicate good leadership. The "spit and polish" that you describe, to me, is more of an indicator of discipline and pride in the uniform, and less of leadership indicator..

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 21 at 2014 8:39 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:39:40 -0400

IMO, spit and polish is a standard that needs revival and is also a leadership tool. It's a way to enforce standards and instill discipline. This a building process that starts in basic training as a basis that leads to more essential types of good order and discipline training like the weapons ranges and battle drills. If you can't maintain the most basic standards and discipline in garrison then what will happen when Mikhail Kalashnikov's great grandchildren are trying to poke a hole in your forehead?

Here's a great related post if you haven't seen it yet: https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/bdus-and-black-boots

BDUs and black boots | RallyPoint

Who was in to remember them (actually wearing them)? Would you like to have them back? I know I sure would. Though it took a great deal of my evenings shining up my boots and pressing my uniform, there was nothing better than standing tall and looking good in those sharply creased BDUs and mirror shined Jump Boots, Jungle Boots or whatever boots you chose to wear.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 21 at 2014 8:45 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:45:06 -0400

You can place a pile of cow sh!t on a plate and surround it with beautiful garnishes and tasty vegetables but you still can't call it filet mignon.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 21 at 2014 8:48 PM

SGT Richard H. — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:48:10 -0400

How do you make the current boots look like mirrors? Hershey Bar polish would be an improvement over suede....but then, the standard has to be at least loosely based on what is issued.

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Sep 21 at 2014 8:49 PM

SFC A.M. Drake — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 20:49:07 -0400

Here is the problem...we do not wear boots that needs shining anymore...lol!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2014 9:00 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:00:20 -0400

I recall the most intelligent saw or wisdom I was given in the early years of my career: "a unit truly ready for combat is NOT ready for a formal inspection."

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2014 9:33 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:33:34 -0400

I wanted to be able to click the bottom two. Strack more times then not "vapor lock under pressure".

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made Sep 21 at 2014 9:50 PM

TSgt Scott Hurley — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:50:51 -0400

Like you said Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member We can be professional without over doing it by focusing on the "Spit and Polish" aspect of being in the military. There is an old saying, do not know who said it, "I have never seen a haircut win a war." With that said, when we still had the BDU's, those that startched the hell out of them which made either the uniform stand by itself or the creases as sharp where it can give you a very close shave rubbed me the wrong way. I did my best at those times with the spit shined boots and all. But I did not want to do that everyday. It took lot of time and effort to do it. And the BDU's were supposed to be wash and wear.

If the force wants to focus on the being "Professional" it needs to do it in a way that says you need to be ready for inspections, but make sure your uniform is in good shape even if you have been working all day. And there will be no points docked because of your uniform having one or two wrinkles because of it. Same goes for the boots if you got some oil on it, or mud. They would be the only exceptions due to working. Of course if your pants are very filthy, and I have seen this one on an airman before, you definitely need to change them.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2014 9:55 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:55:37 -0400

I dont believe that your uniform has to be perfect to be a successful leader. I think it takes a lot of different things to be a great leader.

Response by SSG(P) Auston Terry made Sep 21 at 2014 10:25 PM

SSG(P) Auston Terry — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 22:25:06 -0400

I think that looking like you care about your appearance is a component of soldiering for both the leader and the led. In much the same way as a 300 on the PT test doesn't guarantee bravery or intelligence it is a quantifiable factor. I've worked on the flight line for most of my career where it's impossible to stay clean and unwrinkled. The most shiney guys were typically the turds, but we all pretty much started out the day looking the same.

In sum I think appearance matters and says alot about you, but I respect dirt under the fingernails more than creases in trousers.

Response by Sgt Erle Mutz made Sep 21 at 2014 11:04 PM

Sgt Erle Mutz — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 23:04:03 -0400

I agree with you George - an impressive uniform does NOT always make an impressive (let alone great) leader.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Sep 21 at 2014 11:45 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 23:45:47 -0400

Most people get into correlation vs causation issues with this topic. Many good leaders are steeped in discipline and attention to detail and thus have the spit and polish. A lot of slobs lack discipline. Sometimes (especially in combat) priorities must change and good leaders may not look spit and polished. By the same token, just cause someone looks a little rugged in the field doesn't mean they're competent.

In the end, you can't be lazy and try to judge books by their covers.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Oct 18 at 2014 10:44 AM

1LT William Clardy — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 10:44:51 -0400

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member, a good leader will always know that he is setting a standard by his example in everything he (or she) does, whether it is personal courage or personal grooming.

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Oct 18 at 2014 3:28 PM

SSG Maurice P. — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 15:28:29 -0400

MAJ STANTON those giants of the military were fighting an all out war i dont think they gave any thought for spit and shine at they're level,they probably had many many sleepless nights they were the best officers and leaders in the history of the world i think but im not an educated man just my humble opinion.......

Response by SSgt Thomas A Tullis Jr made Oct 18 at 2014 7:29 PM

SSgt Thomas A Tullis Jr — Sat, 18 Oct 2014 19:29:42 -0400

I have never seen highly shined boots and a pressed uniform lead effectively. Yes, personal appearance is required but that shouldn't be the only requirement.

Response by SSG Jim Handy made Oct 19 at 2014 11:58 AM

SSG Jim Handy — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:58:17 -0400

I have never believed that spit and polish equated to good leadership. Spit and polish relate more to the discipline and pride part of the equation than it does to leadership. I have worked with some people who always wore spit polished boots and starched fatigues with high and tight haircuts, and they couldn't lead a horse to water. The two best battery commanders I had during my time were artillery officers, and they were also aviators. They didn't wear spit shined boots, but their boots were polished according to regulation, they didn't where starched fatigues, but their uniforms were clean pressed according to regulation. They didn't have high an tight haircuts, but their hair was within regulation. Another thing they both had in common were that they were great leaders of men. The men they led respected and trusted them, and they always commanded professional and very competent units, and THAT WAS THEIR JOB!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2014 2:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 14:46:25 -0400

It is the little things that make you look good in front of your soldiers, because you can't tell a soldier to correct themselves when you are all jacked up. The one thing that drives me crazy is worn out Velcro, especially on the flap that covers the zipper on the ACU top. If it is worn out then spend a few dollars and fix yourself, because you look ate up.

Response by LCpl James Robertson made Oct 19 at 2014 4:54 PM

LCpl James Robertson — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 16:54:08 -0400

Depends on what you are attending for ceremonial it should be required. Combat equipment and uniforms required, every day jobs clean but not spit and polish, unless you are at 8th & I, Washington, DC, Embassy are jobs that require you to do so. Dressing to impress certainly looks good, it may not make a good leader, but it certainly looks professional, if you want to fake it to you make it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2014 12:37 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:37:28 -0400

It reminds me of the movie 'Dirty Dozen' when Donald Sutherland (as a make-believe general) after reviewing a brigade of 101st soldiers says, "They're very pretty, Colonel, very pretty. But can they fight?"

Also the quote in Jean Larteguy’s classic 'The Centurions', "I'd like France to have two armies: one for parades with handsome field-pieces, polished tanks, little tin soldiers, bands, general staffs, and lovable old curmudgeons to command it... the other would be for real, composed of nothing but young men super-trained, all volunteers, wearing camouflaged fatigues, whom you'd never see in town but from whom the impossible would be asked and to whom we would teach all the tricks. That's the army I'd like to fight in."

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Oct 20 at 2014 1:03 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Mon, 20 Oct 2014 13:03:51 -0400

Spit and polish is merely one indicator of good leadership.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2014 7:21 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 07:21:40 -0400

There are more qualities than dress that define a good leader.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 22 at 2014 8:09 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 08:09:03 -0400

There is an old saying that I had on a poster in my office for years:

“I’d like to have two Armies -- one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals, and little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles; an Army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country."

"The other would be the REAL ONE, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display, but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the Army in which I should like to fight."

I, however, think there needs to be a balance of both... I believe that maintaining a professional image in the military is important and that adherence to strict standards in everything the military does, to include personal appearance and so-called "spit and polish" of personal/unit areas, motor pools, vehicles, etc. translates into attention to detail and adherence to standards in combat that are essential for success.

I do not believe that units who maintain low standards of appearance and conduct could truly excel in combat situations, despite the depictions of such in movies and TV shows. Regimentation, training, adherence to standards, discipline and esprit de corps are essential for success.

However, I do not believe that "spit and polish" should overshadow training, readiness, real leadership, etc.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2014 8:40 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 08:40:59 -0400

The thing with most of those pictures of Patton, MacArthur, and Nimitz is that they were taken in the field or in other working conditions. It is important to be able to dress up and look sharp when the time comes, but it is equally important to know when it is time to get dirty to get the job done.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Oct 22 at 2014 6:01 PM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:01:43 -0400

Leading from the front, leading by example is more important that how someone looks. I have met many leaders who looked like they were straight out of AR6701-1, but couldn't lead their way out of a wet paper bag. The best leaders I have met in my 11 year of service were the ones, that guided, that used their own example of what to do, they did not ask their troops to do something, they themselves were not willing to do. As a leader, they should set a positive image, and adhere to the regs of course, but that should never take precedence, should never be the focus. Patton, Bradley, Nimitz, Powell and Schwartzkoff, should be the example of all leaders, lately it seems they are more interested in Politics and Spit and Polish, hence why the Military has banned tattoo's, because some political, spit and polish jackass thinks it looks unprofessional

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made Oct 22 at 2014 7:02 PM

SFC Stephen Hester — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 19:02:32 -0400

Just like a new coat of paint makes a car run better.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 1:52 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 13:52:15 -0400

Iraq, Kosovo, Korea, US, Never saw a spit polished rock or a perfectly ironed tree. Just saying.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Jan 2 at 2015 9:46 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 21:46:03 -0500

I had the Honor(hehehehe) to serve with a SGT whos Uniform was always pressed and boots were shined to a high blinding luster, when he would come in to work his uniform was perfect, when he left for the day his uniform was still in pristine condition. Whats wrong with this you ask??? simple...we were mechanized and as mechanized you were expected to go to the motor pool and work on vehicles GETTING MESSY!!!! crawling in and out of, on top of and through them !!!!! He was never around for any of this!!! I guess it depends on your MOS and duties as to whether or not a tight uniform is good or not.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Jan 4 at 2015 2:35 AM

SSG Tim Everett — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 02:35:05 -0500

Pro-tip: Chest Puller, world's most famous Marine next to R. Lee Ermey, would fail a cursory uniform inspection today. Nobody I know of thinks Chesty is a bad leader.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 26 at 2018 10:18 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 22:18:43 -0400

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Sep 28 at 2018 5:20 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 05:20:16 -0400

There more junior the more wiggle room on my selection "professional image" and that also includes a personal opinion. "if yer pretty in the field yall ain't leading."
BUT that doesn't include your being a gear undone, stuff flopping around, weapon over the shoulder, unsecured ammo pouch, eye-pro absence, hard hat gone, weapon barrel flagger.
Am I Clear?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 28 at 2018 8:35 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 20:35:42 -0400

Some folks know how to look pretty and know which buttons to be pushed for promotion. The others earn their promotions.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2018 10:20 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 22:20:06 -0400

I was only a sergeant, and was closer to bag of donuts than spit and polish, but in both military and civilian life, I appreciate it when decision-makers make good decisions and act ethically, more than anything else. That requires competence in the subject at hand and being a good person. The could trust the leaders I had in the Army. My very limited set of subordinates could trust me. Now, as you've stated in your question, if a leader shows up with an inserviceable uniform or a complete lack of regard for professional appearance, then I have question how seriously they take their job. (Of course, nowadays I'm a software developer and wear jeans and an untucked shirt to work everyday. Still, you show up for an interview in our industry wearing a three-piece suit but can't write good code, and you might as well not have shown up in the first place - which, in the a not-very-military-like industry, is actually a pretty good standard.)

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Sep 29 at 2018 6:32 AM

SGT Donald Croswhite — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 06:32:30 -0400

It's not about spit and polish. It's the same as staying off the grass, it's discipline.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 4 at 2019 5:00 PM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 17:00:50 -0400

This breed discipline

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2020 5:38 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2020 05:38:49 -0500

Looking the best you can under normal conditions shows pride in self and unit. A person that is squared away usually keeps a clean weapon, and is on patrol rather than waiting for an ambush in their total life. It also sets an example to subordinates. Remember the most squared away and wrapped tight member you saw early in your career, and pass it forward. It's the small habits that become lifelong after time.

Response by PO1 Lyndon Thomas made Feb 13 at 2020 8:19 AM

PO1 Lyndon Thomas — Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:19:42 -0500

You are absolutely right commander.

Response by PO1 Lyndon Thomas made Feb 13 at 2020 8:24 AM

PO1 Lyndon Thomas — Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:24:14 -0500

Quick story. A fellow officer(Civilian Uniformed service) came to my site, and was "Spit & Polished". he hadn't proven himself and was almost instantly promoted to a position over me. Shortly after, he barged into a female senior executives office and demanded he be made a permanent employee and not contracted security. He got fired became drunk and eventually fell off the grid. That being said, spit and polish does not a good leader make!

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Feb 13 at 2020 9:56 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:56:39 -0500

Let me pontificate (dang used my ten dollar word too early).
There is a time for spit and polish and a time for not. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I had a E-9 tell me once when I was an E-3…you had better have those flight boots polished because you are representing the most powerful Air Force in the world wherever you go around this globe. The toes are what they see when you walk up and the heels are what they see when you walk away. You will have a squared away haircut and you will be clean shaven. If you walk up looking like a shit sandwich people are turned off and not hungry for what you can offer…If you look squared up like you give a damn about yourself they immediately figure you give a damn about your job and what you need them to do and stand ready for your direction. I had a friend on and IG team that did an inspection on a base with two very similar units with same mission. They went to one unit and the Commander, and 1st Sgt met them at the door, spit shined positive attitude and were excited to give them the mission brief. When they went to the unit personnel they were all the same and excited about their jobs and wanted to tell their stories. The next day they went to the other unit and the CC and 1st Sgt met them looking all wrinkled, bad attitudes and told them about the unit and turned them loose for inspection. The unit members mirrored the leadership and morale was low, no pride in the unit, and they barely knew their job much less h ow it played into the big mission. The first unit received and outstanding the second received a marginal. The unit takes on the attitude, look, and feel of its leadership. If they don’t care about the little things like uniform standards, looking professional, and morale then the members of the unit won’t either.

Now downrange, that isn’t the time for spit and polish but standards need to be kept for hygiene, morale, and discipline. Still need to wear the uniform properly, customs and courtesies where approved etc and maybe to a small point spit and polish. You see…if you can’t get the little things right with attention to detail then how can we get the big things right. BUT if that is all you focus on versus the mission then yes it is wrong…there has to be a balance.
That’s my two cents!!!

Response by CPL Dave Hoover made Feb 13 at 2020 10:26 AM

CPL Dave Hoover — Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:26:29 -0500

Not enough voting options. I believe that spit and polish reflects discipline, attention to detail and dedication. If you can't have that on something simple, how are you going to have it for serious matters. Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 13 at 2020 12:01 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Thu, 13 Feb 2020 12:01:28 -0500

I don't know if spit and polish equates to good leadership, but not taking care of the uniform can help the rest of us identify the shitbags from 100 meters away. I wish we would bring back the black boots. I still iron the duty uniform but I don't press it.