Does Squad Leader time for an E-5 count towards SL K/D? If Not, then why?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:53:49 -0400

Just wanting clarification if this is a factor or not and if not then why? Many times I’ve noticed SGT’s being placed in SL positions for long and extended periods of time but keep herring that it won’t count towards KD. If this the case then why is that a factor? Imho I would feel a e-5 having to step up in a higher position for long periods seems more impressive than a standard e-6. More elaboration on this factor would be much appreciative. I don’t have all the answers to this and just trying to understand it. It could be wrong what I’m hearing, it could be right. Just asking for guidance on this to point me in the right direction.

Disclaimer: I am referring to today’s modern army. What was the case back in the early 90s or 80s clearly does not apply to this situation. Any comments that are just gonna mock me for asking an honest question are not welcome. I’m not gonna tolerate absolute negativity. You don’t have anything to contribute to the question or conversation, then I really don’t need your 2 sense. If you are going to bash for an individual asking an honest question, then your the problem. Thank you

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 9:59 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:59:26 -0400

No, it no longer counts. I was an E5 in a SL position for two years and none of my time counts. The only exeception now would be a promotable E7 serving as a company 1SG. If they are frocked, then that time would count.

I don’t have the actual reg or policy letter on hand or off the top of my head. Hope this helps.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 9:59 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:59:37 -0400

So this is something that actually just recently changed if I remember right. Can’t remember why but i know it changed.

As far as it looking better, a Sgt serving in an SL position will have an NCoER that reflects and will be placed above his peers

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:01 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:01:21 -0400

Discard this post their was a typo. New one has been created. Thank you. It won’t let me delete this typo post

Response by GySgt Thomas Vick made Jul 24 at 2020 10:02 AM

GySgt Thomas Vick — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:02:52 -0400

Except and enjoy all the leadership experience pushed your way, you may not get points for it now but the experience will help tri-fold in the future.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:04 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:04:25 -0400

Following, I’ve been asking this question around my battalion and nobody gives me a definite answer or reg for it

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:05 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:05:46 -0400

I think it should count as well, however when reporting up for USR, (USR is usually not briefed at the company level so this might not be as widely known) a squad leader must be school trained, and in position before that squad can be eligible for fully manned. So if that person is a SGT in a SSG position, boarded and promotable, and has gone to school they would fill that position. Filling in until a school trained and promoted NCO comes in is unfortunately what a SGT does. What it does do is give that NCO OJT for that position when they can fully serve in that one. it also helps for the next rank because the knowledge base for that individual is raised, and their learning curve should be shorter. That same squad would also need school trained team leaders, and all the Soldiers required by TOE. This would be a full manned squad. They are still required to do all the things inside their MOS to become a fully trained, but that is for another conversation. Hope this helps

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:06 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:06:48 -0400

Being in a leadership position as an E5 over an E6 is actually a set-up for success as long as it is captured/annotated on the evaluation. The reward is you earning more knowledge and experience which helps you to elevate throughout your career. Shifting the focus from why not to thanks for the opportunity will put you well on the path to becoming SGM.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:06 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:06:57 -0400

What is S/L KD?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:08 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:08:05 -0400

It does not count it will count as a team leader or whatever it is considered for 88M as a 11B we have SGT serving in positions higher so do other MOS’s but according to HRC it no longer counts you must complete 18 months or more as a SSG in your duty position to be considered qualified. I understand the frustration I served as a platoon sergeant for a year and a half as a SSG non promotable and then was selected for SFC but that time as a platoon sergeant does not count for me it only counted once I put on SFC and was in my duty position

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jul 24 at 2020 10:09 AM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:09:11 -0400

I 2nd Tops question, we need for info.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:17 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:17:02 -0400

I’ve heard differently, and according to DA PAM 623-3 it does. My branch manager wouldn’t move me until my last ncoer hit which was the last 8 months of my SL K/D time then hit put me on assignment as an instructor. But it’s all confusing cause some say it does and some say it doesn’t.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:22:22 -0400

You want 2 NCOER's in the position and with the new forms the SGT NCOER does not allow your rater to show any superior performance you should get promoted and preform the role in the rank for 2 NCOER's. Its great to work above your pay grade but that does not mean that you should stop doing the job. Enjoy your time as a squad leader its the best job in the army.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 10:48 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:48:48 -0400

One important aspect to keep in mind is where you’re actually placed on the UMR. If you are legitimately holding that position on the UMR and it’s captured on your NCOER, it should count.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 12:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:52:47 -0400

At one point it did not count, but now it does. It changed about two years ago

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Jul 24 at 2020 6:00 PM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 18:00:53 -0400

You should be thankful for the experience before actually being officially slated into the slot. Someone saw something in you

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2020 6:20 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 18:20:49 -0400

Honestly, no it doesn't. It's one of those technicalities. Just because your unit has trust in you doesn't mean that it counts towards counting for KD time. I think a branch manager could give the "book" answer. That being said, just because it doesn't count shouldn't mean you step down. You're ahead of your peers, learning and gathering experience for the next level. One of the reasons it doesn't count is that E7 is based off your performance for the grade beneath it. As a sergeant you are more responsible for training your guys first, then everything else. As a SSG, you are pretty much the PSGs right hand man, and are prepared to take his place, at a moments notice. How many "Sergeants" are prepared to do that? From what I've seen, some Sergeants can't even write a decent counseling statement let alone lead a platoon, maneuver a platoon, or give the PL good solid mentorship. You're looking at from one perspective. You have to look at it from several angles! Hope that helps. If Im wrong I'm pretty sure someone will tell me after i post this.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 24 at 2020 7:55 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 19:55:04 -0400

Look any leadership position on an NCOER is good for you cause it shows you can make it in a higher position.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2020 6:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jul 2020 18:41:51 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member - It shouldn't count. Although a lot of sergeants do a good job serving as Squad Leaders. It, for the most part, isn't the same level of leader. I filled in as a Team Leader as a Specialist and a Squad Leader as a Sergeant. While yes it was great training and did look good separating me from my peers, I was nowhere near the level of leader in those respective positions until I had been in those positions of a large amount of time. The point of those KD times is not just to make sure you do the positions, but also to slow your progression down so you can learn more and develop into a great leader. Being promoted too quickly can and usually will hurt you in the long run due to not learning everything you should, and not becoming the best E4 before E5, or the best E5 before E6 ect...

Response by AB Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2020 3:34 AM

AB Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2020 03:34:59 -0400

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Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2020 4:35 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:35:34 -0400

This some of the DA 600-25 addressing the subject.

Key Developmental (KD) stabilization is applicable to Active Army Non-Commissioned Officers within Career Management Fields (CMF) 11, 13, 19 (E5-E8) and MOSs 12B (E6-E7) and 12Z (E8) for the minimum amount of time required to meet career model requirements as outlined in DA PAM 600-25. The number of stabilized Soldiers will not exceed the number of KD or CLT positions authorized by the Modified Table of Organization and Equipment (MTOE).

3. Authorized units will use AEA D and Year/Month Assignment Eligibility and Availability Termination (YMAEAT) to stabilize NCOs completing the minimum KD requirements for their current grade. The availability date (YMAEAT) will be set to the NCO’s projected KD completion date, plus one month. Units must account for previously earned KD credit (captured on an NCOER) when determining remaining KD time requirements.

4. HRC will ensure Soldiers are not placed on assignment instructions with REPORT DATES prior to the end of the stabilization period. Erroneous stabilizations will be removed by HRC and reported to FORSCOM.

5. KD Stabilization Criteria: To be eligible for KD Stabilization the NCO must:

a. Be currently serving in a FORSCOM Brigade Combat Team (BCT), 7th ID BCTs, 11th ACR, 1-28th IN BN, 509th PIB, or 3rd Infantry Regiment (The Old Guard).

b. Not be on assignment instructions.

c. Not be KD complete at their current grade.

d. Be slotted in a valid KD position where the NCO will earn KD credit for their current grade on an NCOER. NCOs required to serve in a KD position above their grade will only be stabilized for the amount of time required to be KD complete for their current grade.

6. Counting KD credit:

a. Time spent serving in a KD position for the NCO’s current or next grade counts as KD time for the NCO’s current grade.

b. For CMF 11, 13 and 19; time spent in KD positions for the next grade DOES NOT COUNT towards KD completion for the next grade.

c. For MOS 12B/12Z; time spent in KD positions for the next grade COUNTS towards KD completion for current grade and COUNTS towards KD completion for the next higher grade.

d. Previous KD time for the NCO’s current grade counts if it is documented on an NCOER. Previous KD time for current grade must be considered when determining projected KD completion date and associated YMAEAT.

7. KD Timeline and Position Requirements: The following lists the authorized KD stabilization time and positions for each MOS and grade. Timeline and positions are IAW DA PAM 600-25.

The PAM also breaks down the rank from E5-E7. Hope this answers your question.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2020 1:00 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:00:03 -0400

Here is how it works: an E5 promotable serving in a E6 authorized slot is rated as such. The Position must match the MTOE position. A promotable SM is considered to be in the next grade for assignment purposes. Sadly, sometimes the SM gets rated as an E5 not an E6 and that's where the issue arises.

Response by 1SG Rick Seekman made Sep 20 at 2020 5:32 AM

1SG Rick Seekman — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 05:32:23 -0400

Seems to me that someone had their feelings hurt....