Does the job of an officer really require a degree (excluding professional officers; Doctors, Nurses, Engineers, lawyers, etc..)?

2017-05-01T19:58:35-04:00

I'm about to graduate with my BS in Public Health this year. During my time in the Army, I observed my officers duties (Layouts, Writing Memo's/Power Points, guest starring on patrol, etc..) seem like they can be done without a college degree. (Excluding professionals). What part of officer training requires a degree? I believe we could send NCO's to OCS and they would do just fine. Do you?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 8:13 PM

2017-05-01T20:13:33-04:00

I'm pretty new to the officer side of the house, but I actually agree with you.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 8:13 PM

2017-05-01T20:13:51-04:00

Sarge, I completely agree with you. However, the only problem I see, is that the current bar set, to become an NCO, is quite low. Then again, the current bar to become an officer, other then the degree requirement, is not much higher.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 8:20 PM

2017-05-01T20:20:50-04:00

SGT Suraj Dave - The US Navy had a "Commissioning from the Ranks" program at one time for Chief Warrant Officers and Limited Duty Officers - without four Year degrees - but any such officers were strictly limited in career advancement opportunities. I am not sure - but I believe The US Army and US Air Force require a four year regionally accredited degree for regular officer appointments. The reserve components were a bit more lenient - you must be college senior - and graduate before receiving a regular commission, Warmest Regards, Sandy :)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 9:04 PM

2017-05-01T21:04:11-04:00

No hunting for Pokémon go like my LT does doesn't require a degree, I have a doctorate and don't do that

Response by LTC Stephen Conway made May 1 at 2017 9:19 PM

2017-05-01T21:19:47-04:00

I was a second lieutenant in 1996 the Battalion executive officer in military police in the California guard was working on her associate's degree. I also know a full bird colonel from the Vietnam War era and he was one of the very very few captains that were retained when the Army switched over to an all-volunteer force in 1973. The only determinant was a bachelor's degree. If you did not have it, you were separated from service.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 9:21 PM

2017-05-01T21:21:51-04:00

Who forced you to earn your degree? Who stood over you and made you go to class, or study for exams? Probably no one. There are no major consequences if you don't do those things-you just won't earn your degree. Its entirely up to the individual, and that was the value I derived from it. Earning a degree shows the military that you have enough maturity, self-discipline, and motivation to follow through on a long-term plan without someone forcing you.

Response by LTC Lewis Cox made May 1 at 2017 9:49 PM

2017-05-01T21:49:13-04:00

History proves you are correct, just look at the large number of Officers that were given commissions during The Korean War! Any good NCO can perform the duties oh a company Grade officer. Degrees are required for the same reason as Medical Schools requiring "would be students" to have done very well on their SAT. They, as a group, have a much better chance of going all the way through medical school. The fact that a student has applied himself or herself to obtaining a degree shows they have the determination to make it through the mirad of officer schools! Believe me, The War College is not for Undergraduates!

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made May 1 at 2017 10:13 PM

2017-05-01T22:13:40-04:00

No, I do not believe that you must have a degree to be an officer, however I do believe it makes it easier to be accepted into officer programs and by your peers in the Navy. When I first thought about Commissioning programs in the Navy, I was told that the reason officer had to have a degree was to show that you could complete something. I now feel that if a Sailor (or member of another service) finishes his/her first enlistment with honor, they have shown the same thing. Senior Petty Officers (or equivalent) make excellent Warrant Officers and Limited Duty Officers and can also go on to serve in the Unrestricted Line.

Leaders are sometimes trained through exposure to other great leaders, not on college campuses, even in the Service Academies. Some of us kid the "Ring Knockers" when we meet them, but their education covers so much more than the typical Civilian University or College; these are trained leaders of our Navy, once they have the newness knocked off them in the FLEET. I have met some very fine Academy Graduates who served with distinction from much earlier in their careers than typical college OCS grads.

It all comes down to leadership, few are born leaders. Training can make many good leaders. A combination of training and intuition makes great leaders and that intuition comes from learning. That learning takes place in the Classroom, in the Fleet, and as an understudy to other leaders. The primary job of a good Chief/NCO is training JOs to become...

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made May 1 at 2017 10:17 PM

2017-05-01T22:17:05-04:00

I think you got a narrow view of what being an officer is all about. So what is that formula to Leonidas like company grade leadership? Was there a correlation between degrees and specific branches? I believe the degree requirement for commissioning is not tied directly to a success/failure of platoon leaders. The services need officers. Officers are needed to lead the services from the tactical to operational to strategic levels. The military skills and decision making are grown in house. The degree is not a certification in that regard, it is a box check to get into a commissioning program. A bachelors degree, codified by law, became the universally accepted standard. It was selected for many reasons. I believe among them are: you can stick to something for four plus years; you can apply intellectual rigor to problems; you have the capability to learn a foreign body of knowledge and be conversant in it; the service would acquire someone with your skill set to be repurposed for needs of the service later on. I was branched Ordnance (maintenance) with my Civil Engineering degree that the Army paid for (75% anyway) with the intent of branching me Combat Engineer. Couple truths. The majority of engineering at company grade, isn't. It is mobility, counter mobility, survivability...not designing things. In those days, CSS got the left overs from combat arms. My semesters of Steel Design, Intro to Design, project management, and Mechanics of Materials made me capable of understanding very technical welding and machining issues my Allied Trades shop was dealing with when I was a platoon leader and a shop officer. Growing up as the son of a mechanic helped me understand automotive-armament technical issues as a platoon leader and shop officer. Much later my civil engineering background helped me understand and prioritize public works projects and tangle with the EPA as a Garrison Commander. Nothing prepared me to get scuffed up by my first Troop Commander, counsel my Platoon Sergeant, lead non-cadets for the first time, investigate my first FLIPL, deal with a couple shady NCOs, deal with a couple inflexible seniors, handle a few spouses from hell, deal with death, command a world wide organization etc. nothing would have. What made that all work, was the preparation I recieved from parents that held me to standards; teachers that cared about me; early leadership opportunities as an adolescent (scouting, JROTC, sports, etc); development in my commissioning source by officers and NCOs; development by all ranks as an Officer ( I learn from everyone- good and bad); hard work; and being myself, not trying to be something I am not. If you are not Audie Murphy (alThough he was not well liked either) , you should not try to be him. I am not a proponent for thou must be an NCO first mentality. I have seen many that are incredible officers. I have seen some not make the transition and try to be O3 squad leaders and alienate their NCOs. You have to have a jumping off point to allow lateral entry of junior leaders you will then need to grow to fit the senior roles in the organization both in command and staff. So how do you filter out 20 somethings that you need to exploit in less than ten years, but are depending on fully harvesting the potential of in their early 40s before they retire? In a 20 year career, I spent 5 of those commanding organizations. The other 15 were staff jobs, making the Army keep rolling along. Real staff work, not ppt jackassery, coordinating, fixing problems, and breaking down barriers is what you have to apply intellectual rigor to, along with persistence, your influence, and experience to. So again, the degree is an entry requirement, not the sum total of expectation.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made May 1 at 2017 11:15 PM

2017-05-01T23:15:31-04:00

The same question could be posed for many civilian positions. A Bachelor's degree has just become a commonly accepted "ticket" throughout our culture that is believed to indicate the ability to reason and interpret requirements as well as possessing a certain level of ability to interact effectively with a wide range of personalities. I noted the Code citation buy LTC Mackey was written circa 1995. Personally, I was commissioned through an enlisted commissioning program which allowed me to attend OCS (a group excepted from the O-3 restriction in the code). About a year after I made Captain (O-3), I received a letter from the CMC advising me that my record had been reviewed and it was noted I lacked a degree. I was pointedly advised, that while I could possibly be promoted to Major because of my war record, I should consider myself as limited to Major if I failed to get a degree. The symbolism of the degree becomes obvious if you consider how it is regarded when applying for a position, including commissioned status. Most employers care less if you have a degree in English, Psychology or Quantum Physics. Except for those "professional" positions cited by Sgt Dave, any old degree will do and, unless it is a degree from an Ivy League or other high profile school, most employers could care less where you got the degree. There are always a few exceptions where a HS graduate has worked hard and earned what would normally be considered a position reserved for the college graduate, but a degree is an indicator that opens doors. Does it make sense all the time, probably not, but it is just the way it is.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 2 at 2017 12:24 AM

2017-05-02T00:24:58-04:00

SGT Suraj Dave That is a very good question, which could answer with "well it has always been that way." First, what is the purpose of a college degree? What do you really get from undergraduate education? Back in the day, the current paradigm made sense. Today, things are different with regards to college. But, you still need to come to grips with what an undergraduate college education really provides. I would also offer, while by no means perfect, our military works very as currently configured with regards to enlisted troopers, NCOs, and Officers.

This has been talked about on RP before and in the news. I think they need have at least bachelors degree, but I also agree there are exceptions to every rule. Is "just fine" what you are looking for?

I went to OCS as an E5 with 88 college credits. So, this is not a new issue.

I think case by case works best.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/11/do-military-officers-really-need-college-degrees-this-marine-vet-says-no/

Do Military Officers Really Need College Degrees? This Marine Vet Says No

Do military officers need college degrees? An op-ed in The Wall Street Journal Monday argued that because colleges are continually watered down by low-quality students, a degreeisno longer suffici

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2017 1:28 AM

2017-05-02T01:28:49-04:00

In my opinion, I think its based on the leader needing to be (or perceived as) the smartest person in the element. Clearly if a person can become an Officer, while holding only a B.A. in Underwater Basket Weaving, it's not about the technical skills they learned from the degree program, aside from General Education topics; although the degree program does get more focus in certain fields like medicine. I think it has part to do with the perception of intelligence, and another part to do with the prestige placed around the holding of a degree, even in civilian life. I don't believe this is the perspective of individual officers, but maybe the mindset of those who created the criteria for Officer eligibility way back.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way bashing the effort of obtaining a degree, just trying to see it from a reasonable perspective where we don't truly believe that a degree magically makes someone intelligent or capable of leading Soldiers in battle; just as the memorization and reciting of the NCO Creed doesn't magically make a Soldier a great NCO/leader. Now on the other side of that, there can only be so many Officers, so it makes sense to create criteria that vastly narrows down potential applicants based on desired qualities, rather than have the entire force constantly trying to apply. I guess education is a good basis to start from, at least for the reading/writing/math.

More and more enlisted folk are obtaining degrees, which then requires Officers to need to continue going higher as well. Just like its probably not good for a subordinate employee to be paid more than their boss, it probably wouldn't look good for subordinates to be more educated than their bosses either. That's not even taking into account that the military is a career field, where expectations for promotion and retention are driven by competition.

Just my opinion though.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2017 1:08 PM

2017-05-02T13:08:29-04:00

Having a degree is simply a requirement. Just like you need 5 jumps at airborne school to get your wings. Does the guy who jumped 4 times not know how to do it a 5th time? Doesn't matter. Someone at some point said you needed 5 jumps. End of story. Someone else at another time said officers require degrees. That's just how it works. Having a degree doesn't make you any better of an officer, just like having a 300 APFT score doesn't make you a good squad leader.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made May 3 at 2017 3:39 PM

2017-05-03T15:39:09-04:00

Does the job of being an officer really require a degree, probably not. Does obtaining a degree change you and provide experiences you would not receive otherwise, yes. We have a system developed that has done really well and it should stay that way. Does anyone that asks this question believe someone off the street with a degree should become an NCO? Absolutely not, good NCOs come up the ranks learning policy and gaining experience as a service member, something in place that cannot be replicated in college. What I learned in college was not just from the classes I took but the experience of turning assignments in on time, having a life at clubs till 0200, and then realizing clinicals at 0600 hungover is not fun nor wise, learning that disagreements with instructors and preceptors can lead to failures because people in power can find a way to fail you that is objective and not discrimination if they want; a college degree is so much more than just signing up for classes. You learn what in a 1500 page book is going to turn into a 200 question final, what writing in APA is about, and trying to leave class at 1500 and make it across town for work at 1530 does not work out. These are different challenges that what our NCOs experience and while I would never agree that a college experience would qualify a person to be an NCO I can also never agree that no degree experience will make an NCO a good officer. What folks here need to understand is we have a system set-up that has been largely successful for generations and aside from officer shortages during war, we should keep this as it is.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made May 4 at 2017 3:40 PM

2017-05-04T15:40:00-04:00

I'm of two minds on this subject. Having served in the Air Force where every officer had a Bachelors Degree and many had post-graduate education, I am inclined to view this as the "normal" condition for officers. (More on this later.) On the other hand, I was a pilot and for 3 years a pilot training instructor. Most all of what I did as a pilot could have been handled by a person without a 4-year degree. As an instructor pilot, I taught foreign and US students. Many of the foreign students had little or no education beyond their national equivalent of High School except for their military training. The non-degree students succeeded and failed about as often as those with bachelors degrees. The Army has proved this out with the success of their aviation warrant officer programs. They don't require a bachelors degree, but produce many successful military pilots. There's little about airmanship academics (the classroom part of pilot training) that I was taught in USAF pilot training that I hadn't already been exposed to in High School, Civil Air Patrol airmanship classes, or working on my private pilots license. Jet aircraft systems were more complicated than the Piper Cub or Cessna 150 I flew as a youngster, but the overall principles of flight, flight planning, navigation, weather, etc., were the same.

Back to the subject of officers requiring a bachelors degree. Getting a 4 or 5 year degree requires a certain amount of maturity and discipline that are important factors in being a successful leader. Depending on the university and person, they may learn valuable knowledge and skills in working with people, managing time and resources, working under pressure, test taking, critical thinking, public speaking, and professional writing; sometimes a foreign language. In a few schools and curricula they may actually gain an understanding of US History, world history, and the US Constitution. All contribute to the potential for the new lieutenant or ensign to develop into a good leader. ROTC and OCS provide the knowledge and skills necessary to start the process of becoming a good military officer.

Should the Services provide a pathway for enlisted personnel to become officers. Certainly they should and do. All the Services offer programs for enlisted personnel to attend university, get their degree, and complete either ROTC or OCS. Could an outstanding and highly experienced NCO skip the degree part. I say, yes. I believe 8 years of experience with advancement to E-6 could be considered equivalent to a bachelors degree. The NCO could complete OCS and compete successfully with his more educated peers. However, the pressure would be there to complete the degree to compete for promotion beyond Captain, I believe.

Response by CPO David Welsh made May 4 at 2017 9:20 PM

2017-05-04T21:20:54-04:00

I have pondered this for the past few years. The degree requirement may be tied to the caste system when feudal lords ruled and governed their vassals. Throughout history there is the case of those in power to seek appointments as officers and lead the commoners into battle. Think of our own history as well as European history and this would appear to be the case. Today, I wonder if the current all volunteer military no longer reflect our country or social norms. Many of the best officers I served under were prior enlisted (many, but not all). I have wondered if a reorganization of military should be proposed. As a recommendation, require that all service members begin their careers as enlisted members and attend the boot camp of their respective service. After a period of 3 years, those noted with potential may apply to attend a service academy for eventual commissioning as officers. Along with reorganization, require all service members to attend college classes and obtain an Associates Degree during their first enlistment. Officer candidates would complete a Bachelors degree during OCS training at their academy, a two year program leading to their commission. Those choosing to remain enlisted, may opt to continue their education during active service. Yes, this is a simplistic recommendation and needs work to take care of the specifics; but the idea is pretty straightforward. Classes could be a combination of online and classroom and the degree would be supervised and accredited by the respective service academy. Just an idea.

Response by CPT Joshua Dumont made May 24 at 2017 10:20 AM

2017-05-24T10:20:04-04:00

Consider it a roadblock to the uninitiated or a rite of passage. Does memo writing require experience writing and researching reports? Maybe not. Can an E2 with a crayon make a layout? Maybe. Can anyone operate outside their comfort zone? Sure. (NCOs & OCS) Not all NCOs can hack it. Not even close, and maybe not you. The biggest thing that changes is the individual accountability and loss of anonymity. Get used to competing with your peers in a different rating system. There are no more warnings, either. Strike one and done. E7 and above are visible at a higher level to command. The streets are littered with the bodies of wannabe 1LTs who never made it past their commissioning source. Some of being a 2lt is real easy, some of it is a regrettable bureaucratic meat grinder that most people cannot stomach. One last thing- lose the macho NCO ego at the door or they will eat your lunch.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made May 24 at 2017 10:56 AM

2017-05-24T10:56:33-04:00

Probably 90% of what I did in the military or civilian career after the military had nothing to do with my degree. The requirement for a degree simply separates out those who have the ability to meet the requirements of achieving a goal. Having the fortitude necessary to obtain a degree displays a skill set that is extremely beneficial towards success in the military. Not everyone has this, as evidenced by the number of individuals who don't attend college or simply drop out without obtaining a degree. Having a degree is simply a screening factor to identify individuals with the traits to most likely succeed in the military.

Response by Cpl Gerald Tucker made Oct 30 at 2020 10:58 PM

2020-10-30T22:58:14-04:00

Great answer LTC. MacKay! I found out later that college is actually easier than high school. As stated, unless you’re in a real professional degree program like my wife. BSEE, MSEE. Undergrad is great but a lot of cheating on exams takes place. But overall the LTC. Is correct. You have to start somewhere.