Does the Military make it too difficult to get rid of bad Service Members?

2013-12-30T21:25:46-05:00

I work very closely with my Commander and 1SG on personnel issues within our unit and I have seen the insane amount of work it take to get a bad NCO reduced. It almost takes an act of congress. It took over a year to reduce this NCO even though was overwhelming evidence that the NCO was not NCO material. It seems that the Military sometimes has that "Pass the trash" mentality. Luckily my command team didn't accept that and fought until the NCO was held accountable, reduced and discharged.<br><br>Has anyone else experienced the lack of caring and road blocks to holding Service Members accountable for bad behavior in the Military?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 30 at 2013 9:27 PM

2013-12-30T21:27:08-05:00

I'd say that's an unequivocal yes.. Having said that, I do think the system is there to ensure everyone gets a fair shot, that no one is railroaded out without due process..

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Dec 31 at 2013 1:30 AM

2013-12-31T01:30:05-05:00

While bad character and lack of desire to uphold the Army Values and the tenets of begin an NCO are normally not punishable by UCMJ, they are definitely grounds for an Admin Reduction Board.<div><br></div><div>That is by far the easiest route to reduce an NCO that is doing what they should be doing.</div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, Relief-for-Cause NCOERs can also be generated for non-UCMJ punishable acts such as the command losing confidence in you as a leader.</div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2014 3:28 PM

2014-04-23T15:28:23-04:00

It is extremely difficult and for no reason. I understand due process but the correctly done counseling packet should suffice, especially if the SM has had previous UCMJ. What I really want to know is after the packet is verified and legit- why does it take so long to get them gone?

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made Apr 27 at 2014 12:53 PM

2014-04-27T12:53:12-04:00

Yes. And its making it too difficult to KEEP the good ones

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Apr 27 at 2014 1:03 PM

2014-04-27T13:03:02-04:00

One of the things that needs to be remembered here is that once the Army separates someone, that has a lasting effect on that individual, and possibly for a family also. I mention that for two reasons. One, it is a process and it can be a lengthy one depending on the circumstances. I believe that is designed to ensure that everything is done correctly and also that all avenues of rehabilitation were explored and exhausted. Two, depending on the type of separation, there may still be some benefits that may require additional time to complete prior to separation (ie ACAP). Granted on a case by case basis, there may be roadblocks as you call then SGT Cotton. I believe though that the system is designed to ensure the Army gets it right.

Response by SGT Shon D. Hill made Apr 28 at 2014 10:06 AM

2014-04-28T10:06:49-04:00

Certainly your example of a bad NCO is an example of this, but I believe we in any branch are a special situation. We retrain and punish within first, then pursue discharge if there is no other course of action. I have had a few soldiers who seemed hopeless that turned into fine NCO's later! I'm glad we didn't give up, even if it seemed "easier" or the "best" choice at the time! Also, I made a fairly big "mistake" once and was almost booted (1995, during drawdown no less). My command didn't choose that path, and I was able to become a good sergeant and serve later in combat! It's a tough call folks but that's the job!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2014 12:23 PM

2014-04-28T12:23:44-04:00

Yes it does. If the Army wanted to bout someone out, then it wouldn't take 6 months for a normal chapter. That's way too much time for that soldier to get into even more trouble which calls for another Article 15 or more chapter paperwork that gets sent up to JAG which in turns has to take its 1-2 month process it takes to input that specific paperwork. Way too long of a process. It just likes that bad soldier be a nuisance to you and your unit which can spill over and influence other soldiers in the unit

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2014 5:04 PM

2014-04-28T17:04:07-04:00

Absolutely. Being in command for over a year now in my second command I have seen how long it can take for packets to be proceeded for non-participants and those who were caught using drugs (particularly those who got caught multiple times). It really gets me going to think of how long we have to give Soldiers to tell them that they are going to be proceeded out and then how long after that before they even get looked at in higher levels. Why do we take some much time (and I am talking well over two years for some of these Soldiers) where we risk or are hinted at just doing a ETS packet for them after they have not shown up for 2 years and their packet is sitting at higher levels. If I went to work for Walmart and did not show up for work they would can me within a week. Sports teams cut their players and coaches all the time. Why can we not kick them out faster, take away all their bonuses that they received, and charge them for all the money that we spent training them? My thought being if you sign up you mean that you want to fulfill your obligations, if not you do not deserve to still receive VA and other benefits if you do not show up.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2014 4:59 AM

2014-05-24T04:59:27-04:00

A little off topic but how do you handle that SM that is waiting to be chaptered in the mean time? I have one that is constantly late or MIA during the duty day. He pretty much shows up when he feels like it and no one really wants to be bothered with him. I'm strong believer in the power of black and white but how many should I have his NCO keep doing? He has been pending this chapter since my arrival into the unit a year ago (he also falls into the category of SMs with longer than 6yrs TIS.)

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Jul 2 at 2014 10:54 AM

2014-07-02T10:54:30-04:00

Absolutely seen this, and my impression is that it is worse in the reserve components. I don't know if this is due to the part-time nature of the command teams, or what.

The other thing I really noticed is retention NCOs taking unsat Soldiers from either active duty or the IRR and dumping them in units without any real screening, let alone a CDR interview.

I had at least 6 Soldiers that came to me either straight from active duty, or from a short stint in the IRR after active duty, that were all pursuing new LODs and Med Boards for injuries sustained on active duty. I gained one SR NCO on my books who had been QSB'd (may have been a different board name, same idea), went to the IRR for 3-4 months, and BOOM, my problem. I had a newly commissioned officer (no LT slots in my unit....) placed on my books at JBLM who lived in Alaska, with her AD husband, and another in the same situation in Alaska. But there I was, reporting on why they were overdue on PHA....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 11:33 AM

2015-04-24T11:33:24-04:00

Yes!!! I am a UAT, so I do our Personnel stuff as well. Seems like they want to retain all the Soldiers that don't show up to drills. I feel like I almost have to "stalk" these Soldiers to try to contact them. Emails, phone calls, searching online. I understand that Soldiers have issues so yes, we need to try to contact them and help them any way we can. The ones that get me, are the ones that change numbers and addresses all the time, fail to give you that info, never claim the mail that is sent to them, don't call the unit to seek assistance, and don't help themselves, help us fix the issue. I feel as though I spend more time on them than it seems for the Soldiers that comply with the standards. BTW, if any of you have the issue of locating Soldiers, let me know. I have gotten ok with doing this:)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2015 9:13 PM

2015-04-26T21:13:55-04:00

Is it too difficult? Absolutely NOT. However, often, due to lack of following procedure and process regulations, the commands are unable to make necessary reductions stick. Too many people know how to properly document disciplinary action, much less, reward deserving actions. Generally speaking, as leadership we do not want to appear to be planning for a Soldiers release, but this concern would be eliminated if things were conducted consistently towards all Soldiers. Waiting until you have had enough is the downfall in getting rid of a Soldier. What you have condoned in the past now becomes your nightmare. It presents the appearance that the Soldier is being singled out. It confuses what "right" truly is. Enforce right behavior, reward outstanding behavior, and hold Soldiers accountable in a manner that is both fair and impartial is a great way to start. If more people took the time to learn the standards that are in place, rather than waiting until the time to separate someone, commands would be more successful at getting rid of the garbage. The process isn't too difficult, the ones who have the responsibility of upholding the standards need to ensure they are doing so themselves. Know the regulations, know the process and know your Soldiers, long before a Soldier's negative attributes are now a problem for everyone.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Jun 9 at 2015 3:49 PM

2015-06-09T15:49:54-04:00

Can't keep the good ones, stuck with the bad ones...yah we're in trouble

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2015 4:49 PM

2015-06-09T16:49:20-04:00

Unfortunately, our society has become a numbers game. Some schools (public K-12) will make a student come in for two hours to take a test, just so they get to count them for the attendance rolls that count towards Federal funding dollars. Similarly, the Services are expected to hit & maintain their manpower numbers (which is also tied to the amount of funding they receive). This sometimes entails keeping Soldiers on the rolls rather than processing them for discharge. I'm not saying it's ethical or "right," but I have seen it happen.

I have had the opportunity to sign documents for discharge packets that were held at Battalion or above for over five (5) months. I have seen a Soldier that sat on the AWOL rolls for over a year, then a proposal was made to send an AWOL team out of state TDY to "convince" the Soldier to honor his obligation so the manpower number wouldn't drop. Also, I have seen Soldiers that should have been transferred in to the IRR never get properly processed and the unit wound up carrying them on the rolls until they ETSd. These situations happened in three different state National Guards so I believe it to be a systemic problem.

In my experience, these decisions have flowed from well above unit level. The impact is felt in the trenches though, giving Soldiers the impression that there are not consequences for poor decisions...not to mention stagnating promotions for those that do the right thing.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 10 at 2015 2:21 AM

2015-06-10T02:21:52-04:00

In my personal experience at least, it takes more time to separate an Officer than it does an enlisted member, particularly E-6 and below members.

On my last ship there was an O-2 who was caught red handed in a sexual relationship with an E-3 who worked directly for him. The E-3 was separated long before the O-2.

I've seen E-7-E-9 get charged with something as bad as DUI and walk away with basically a slap on the wrist, whereas E-6 and below lose at least one rank. Even if they don't get kicked out, their career is pretty much over and they get that dreaded "Retention not recommended" on their performance evaluations.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 7:59 AM

2015-06-10T07:59:51-04:00

Not if you document deficiencies and exhaust all your means to help the member. There is a process involved and if we as leaders are hesitant to document the members issues, then yes it is almost impossible. If you have an active duty member that is "Bad" then there is a reason for it and the pen is mightier than the sword. My take is that a "Bad" service member can be mentored to be a stellar performer but you must document the history of his progression in order to finally accept that this member is not fit for military service and recommend their departure from the military. The hard part is accepting the fact that you weren't able to help them adjust and sometimes it's just plain impossible. Damn it's hard to swallow those!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-08-02T12:54:51-04:00

Yep! I do our packets at my unit. Full time civilian. I did a drug packet back in 2012, deployed 9 months later, came home in August 14 and was called about this packet in December 14. Finally got the orders not long ago. Same thing has happened with unsat packets. Seems like they want to send them to the IRR, which (to me) doesn't do anything but let them get back in some other unit and do it again. I don't do the IRR thing, I process the packets for discharge

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 3 at 2015 8:31 PM

2015-08-03T20:31:51-04:00

You can thank today's parents and the trophies for participation. We need more tough love!

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 10:09 PM

2015-08-03T22:09:31-04:00

Maybe 10-20 years ago but not now, not in the Army at least. It seems very easy to shrink the ranks.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Aug 3 at 2015 11:32 PM

2015-08-03T23:32:09-04:00

SGT Philip Cotton, Those slow/ difficult/ time consuming, personnel dismissal problems are inherent in the military/government employment system. As of now, the VA makes a great example! Most supervisors are not trained/nor dedicated enough to take copious notes and to build a "case" as to why an employee/SM should be punished or terminated!