Does White Privilege really exist in our military? "Army says diversity training sent wrong signal... "

2015-04-06T07:33:20-04:00

What are your thoughts on this topic, this training, this manual?

I, personally, believe we have come a long way in the America and in our Army, but I also know (A) we are not there yet, and (B) I know that I see the world through my eyes and life experiences.

1. As you know (or may not know) the concept of "white privilege" appeared in the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute (DEOMI) training manual in 2013. DOD officials quickly said it was a mistake, and it that this was not caught in the fielding of the policy manual... That makes sense, as many don't actually read things they approve. That led me/us to believe there was a change in the works.

2. Now, it appears this concept, which was supposed to be removed the DOD training manual/POI, was not, and DEOMI is still pushing this message. Now, it appears we have an EO Officer or NCO teaching this to Soldiers...

Interesting to say the least.

These are some related articles.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/03/army-diversity-training/25250733/

http://toprightnews.com/army-soldiers-forced-to-sit-through-white-privilege-presentation-and-the-backlash-is-just-beginning/
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/31/pentagon-training-manual-white-males-have-unfair-advantages/

Army says diversity training sent wrong signal

The Army says a diversity training slide sent the wrong signal.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Apr 6 at 2015 7:46 AM

2015-04-06T07:46:57-04:00

I think removing the photo and any reference to race from the promotion recommendation package in the late 80s was a good and necessary step. I have not seen it amongst AF Officer ranks, but then I am white, so I could be blind to it.
I don't like the concept, I hope it is gone forever, and I worry that including it in any DoD manual will keep it alive in people's minds longer.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 7:57 AM

2015-04-06T07:57:12-04:00

Absolutely ridiculous!!! I am not naïve and fully understand that there is racism, sexism, and every other ism in the Army. Again, we are a cross section of the population we serve, there will never be a perfect equal opportunity program because you cannot change someone's beliefs in a short amount of time, if ever.

Garbage like this only propels racism. I have never felt privileged over any other race since I have been in the Army. In the Infantry everybody is treated like crap so we got that going for us.

I think we will be seeing a major overhaul soon in the Army's Equal Opportunity Program. They replaced POSH with SHARP because POSH was ineffective, I see that same thing happening with EO.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Apr 6 at 2015 8:15 AM

2015-04-06T08:15:52-04:00

Well, having spent the first 8 years of my career being the minority in my unit (so much so that I got dubbed "token"), I think it depends on career field.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 8:28 AM

2015-04-06T08:28:44-04:00

COL Charles Williams , as a white Equal Opportunity Leader (EOL), I believe that "White Privilege" is absurd. In the 12 years that I've been in, I've never seen white Soldiers be promoted any faster that any other race. I have however, seen multiple 1SGs/CSMs that were Black/African American or Pacific Islander that show extreme favoritism to their race for promotions. The Free Masons are well known for their fraternization, and do it openly. This organization is primarily made of Black/African American Service members, but nothing is ever said about that.... "White Privilege" they say...? If anything, I would say that there is a Black/African American Privilege that exists in our military and country. Did the military not lower multiple standards in order to provide the military with a more diverse corps of Officers? This has also been done with elite colleges. Equal opportunity is great, but no other organization represents that better than the United States military. These people need to stop with the racial division we constantly deal with due to these situations.

Response by SGT(P) Khalid Wise made Apr 6 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-04-06T08:53:22-04:00

O-M-G, what the frack?!? I have too many rebel flag bearing brothers who had my six without reservation or hesitation operating in Afghanistan in 2003-2004... That only happens in our greatest military, JMHO.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 9:06 AM

2015-04-06T09:06:46-04:00

Mhh I personally don't feel that there is a wwhite privilege phenomenon going on in the Army. If anything I have seen that a white service member was overlooked for promotion or a assignment to not sent a "wrong" message.

Like CSM Oldsen said there is plenty of all kinds of "-ism's" in the Army and every human being is racism to a certain extend, it's how you act on it that makes the difference.
But when you're creating a "protection" for one particicular group you automatically put someone of a different group at a disadvantage.

The problem with the EO program is that mostly it is seen that racism is coming from white people towards non-whites. Which is wrong, I was target of plenty of discrimination because of my national origin even though I'm white.

And going ahead and saying we need x% of black, x% of hispanic and x% of other races in this particular field or position is wrong. With that you'll get people in positions they should not be in just because they are of a certain race. That is not equal in m eyes.
The Army should stop trying to force "equality" a) it doens't work, and b) when forced it's more harmful than anything.
Best men/ women for the job regardless of race, sex or whatever. If you didn't get selected for a job it might be that you are just not qualified.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 6 at 2015 9:08 AM

2015-04-06T09:08:47-04:00

Over the course of my 26-year career, I have witnessed many different "covert" racist incidents within the ranks of the NCO Corps of my beloved Army, from all different races and within the DA itself. I have been witness to, but never a member of, the "Good Ol' Boy" network which for lack of a better name, was mostly a Caucasian thing; I have been witness to the African-American "Free Mason" club; as well as different Hispanic and Pacific Islander networks. At differing times through out my career I have seen all races/ethnic backgrounds "take care of their own" at the expense of others who may have been more deserving of a promotion, position or award. One of the biggest problems inherent within the Army system itself, like within society as a whole IMO, is the continuation of the Affirmative Action or "quota" system within the Army promotion program as a whole. Time and again I saw fully qualified individuals not get selected by or passed over due to their race/ethnic origin in favor of someone who was less qualified or of equal qualification and to me that is just wrong, promotion should have and always should be based on your performance and potential, not due to a percentage of skin color/or ethnic background. White Privilege may have been predominate in the '50s, '60s, '70s and '80s, but that has pretty much been quashed and the pendulum swung more to the opposite end of the spectrum, rather than having finally settled in the center as it should.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Apr 6 at 2015 9:50 AM

2015-04-06T09:50:00-04:00

The Marines don’t have any race problems. They treat everybody like they’re black.
—Gen Daniel “Chappie” James Jr., USAF, circa 1970

https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/marine-corps-quotes

Caveats:

1. I don't know if Gen James ever actually said it, but it is widely attributed to him
2. The quote is from the 1970's just as the Civil Rights Movement is making headway
3. I personally subscribe to treat everyone like an American rather than an {insert whatever group here} we are using to divide us.

Marine Corps Quotes | Marine Corps Association

The Marine Corps Association is the professional association for ALL Marines. The MCA publishes Leatherneck Magazine and the Marine Corps Gazette for the professional development and connectivity to the Corps for Marines - present, past, and future. The MCA also owns The Marine Shop, which supplies all the necessary uniforms and accessories for Marines, as well as other USMC products and gear.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 6 at 2015 9:58 AM

2015-04-06T09:58:43-04:00

The issue with "white privilege" is that the term can be twisted so much that there is no way to study it objectively.

What we can do is provide demographic information on promotions (USMC does for SSgt+), and see if they are out of line with the service structure. Based on representation of the Force, we can determine if there is an over or under-representation at higher ranks.

But back to the manual/regulation. Can you regulate "subjective"? ("It's not what he said, it's how he said it!") Using the term "white privilege" in an official document, is like using "rape culture" in Sexual Harassment training. It's just not appropriate.

Response by SGT Chris Reese made Apr 6 at 2015 10:07 AM

2015-04-06T10:07:42-04:00

As long as there are DA photos there will be all the 'isms you can imagine. I believe that sexism and racism are still major issues and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I have yet to understand why people can't just agree that we all bleed red and all wear the uniform of the greatest Military in the world and just set everything else aside.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 10:40 AM

2015-04-06T10:40:54-04:00

Here comes the EO stand-down training...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 11:14 AM

2015-04-06T11:14:01-04:00

I saw this on Army WTF Moments on Facebook. I was horrified when I say this. I wish I would have been there. I am surprised that no one tried to stop it. I am sure they thought this was some what they thought was supposed to be there.

I straddle the race barrier. I am white. My heritage is European but as you can imagine with a last name like Rosa I am cast as being Hispanic. Not there is anything wrong with that but I am proud of my heritage. But what kills me is when I inform people they still don't think I am white. That is fine. I have not reason to care really but what bothers me is that how they perceive how whites act and how I don't fit into that. This is madness. This is what some want others to think. That they didn't fail on their own or how they think Whites are automatically successful in life. I had to work for everything I had. It isn't my fault I am successful. No one is going to hand you success. You have to get that on your own.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 6 at 2015 11:22 AM

2015-04-06T11:22:16-04:00

All Marines are green. Just different shades.

Response by BG David Fleming III made Apr 6 at 2015 11:42 AM

2015-04-06T11:42:44-04:00

"White Privilege" isn't a word I would ever use in my vocabulary. Favoritism exist is the military just as it does in the general population. I have sat on my share of promotion boards with officers and NCO's of all races, and I can say quite comfortably, skin color has never stopped a qualified soldier from getting promoted.

The process works good as long as you have a diverse panel reviewing the files. I believe this neutralizes any effect of favoritism one might have.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Apr 6 at 2015 12:31 PM

2015-04-06T12:31:26-04:00

Sir,

Definitely. I would give your post two thumbs up if I could and applause for bringing up this subject. Thank you for doing so.

Yes, it exists. I've seen it in nearly every unit I've been. With that being said, the unit I deployed with was actually the least racist unit I had ever served with. They had their shortcomings here and there, but no one is perfect and I think they were all very tolerant on the issue.

The issue the Army has with this, is that, were higher ranking officers intent on stamping out this issue, there's only so many tools to work with.

1. You can boot out clearly racist service members. But if going this route, the SM that is accused needs a fair account of his side. Racist black and hispanics, and other minorities should not be exempt either.

2. Mandate it in training manuals and 'classes'. These do not put any true seeds in anyone's head if they already have a racist mentality, and I've seen that privately, going this route backfires.

3. Wait for recruits coming in on the civilian side to clean things up as they gain entry and make rank in the military. But here, we are assuming that the current youth generation is more racially tolerant than the old guard and that may not be the case.

It will be hugely unpopular for me to say it here, but I ets'd, I'm out. Yes white privilege is nearly exactly how it was described here in the article. Its a luxury to not think about it, but when leaders and superiors are coming down harder on you than others and the only difference is skin color, it puts bad seeds in the head. I'm sure most soldiers don't believe in or agree with any sort of racial agenda, but there's not much for minorities to do that will not garner some wrath and loathing. Then, you are faced with having to 'objectively' prove things and racism, along with sexism and any other -ism is all about not being objective. Its a lost cause the moment it becomes an issue.

And then the usual shut down is, what about minority 'agendas' being 'pushed' on the majority regardless of their wishes? So, if protecting racial minorities becomes something mandated in legal code, anyone who is NOT protected won't feel benefited and in fact feel threatened. But to make matters worse, then you have minority service members that do in fact abuse these things when and where they can (I'm hispanic, but I'll say it how it is, minority service members can be just as immoral as white service members). White service members will feel that the military is building affirmative action within its ranks and diluting the quality of its leadership. It would be ludicrous though to say that white service members do not have valid points here...the more there are legal mandates for any thing and it affects how people make rank or are evaluated, the more you have that agenda driven 10% that aren't trying to do the right thing and shine, they only see these things as tools to engage in office politics and back-stab those they consider to be rivals at the earliest convenience.

If true military 'leadership' were there, and by that I mean, TRUE military leadership, leading from the front, being the example you want to see, taking a stand for the right issues, racial issues would never have reared this way. I don't see a clear way any one wins in divisive issues such as this.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 6 at 2015 3:43 PM

2015-04-06T15:43:15-04:00

I'm a very confused little man. I would have immense pride in my culture and ethnicity, if I had any. But alas, mom was adopted and has no knowledge of her birth parents. Pop had his name changed to nana's new husband's name (Merino). If we stick to tradition and claim dad's last name, my name is really Mark Kinney. Where does my dark skin come from? I've been a pain in the butt since then because I feel like I can choose whatever I want. I would bring this little issue up all the time in my EO training and sometimes it got really sporty! "You are Spanish." "Oh hell no, he's white." "Are you Irish?" I just wanted either an "other" box or "God's child." Talk about being a minority. I'm in a very special group.....adopted and clueless.

Response by SSG Byron Napoleon made Apr 6 at 2015 5:17 PM

2015-04-06T17:17:50-04:00

I do not think there is such a thing as white privileges.... I may be wrong, but I believe it is an individual's character that matters the most. I have seen people who blames others for their failures... I have failed few times but my failure is only because I allowed it. In my military career, I have never seen any privileges played regardless of race. So, this question really bugs me. So, I will say... anyone who plays privileges game... should look at him or herself whether white, black or brown and ask yourself... do my character play a role in my success or am I getting along because of my complexion? If you can't answer that, then put your boots on and earned the respect you demand.

Response by SSgt Heather Capra made Apr 6 at 2015 10:10 PM

2015-04-06T22:10:09-04:00

I didn't see race being a factor in promotions or anything else while I was in. As a white female I often found myself the only white person or one of few in many situations. My units, I would say, were fairly diversified, my direct superiors were been black, brown, brown, black, white, white, brown. In that order and that is actually the first time I thought about their race in relation to anything. Sure there were days when I wasn't their number one fan, but I liked each one and never felt treated unfairly. I can only recall two people crying unfair treatment due to race while I was in. One was a student, we were debating speed limits of all things, we didn't agree. She said it was never ok for anyone to break a speed limit, I permitted emergencies and going with the flow of traffic (ie the NJ Turnpike). Later she told my co-workers that I was racist, they just laughed and shook their heads, most of whom were black or brown, how she jumped from our speed discussion to race is beyond me. The other time was when a peer kept getting pulled over by the SFs on base for speeding, he complained that it was because he was black. As noted my NCO was black, as was the NCO over her, we also had a black OIC, they didn't have a problem with the SF. Anyways, the Senior NCO told him to knock it off, that race was not an issue and to start acting responsibly and stop driving like an idiot. Normally this would be said behind closed doors, but my peer was very vocal about the injustices he suffered because he was a black Muslim - in 2000. The only -ism that I saw that garnered huge disdain was Imtoogoodtodothatism.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 10:15 PM

2015-04-06T22:15:59-04:00

Excuse my french COL Charles Williams but WTF is "White privilege?"

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 10:50 PM

2015-04-06T22:50:14-04:00

I think the more we talk about it the more we talk about it. Being in the military allows people from all walks of life to have a fresh start, get a trade, make a living and possibly raise a family.

I think it may exist for some people. The military has put so many "training" awareness in place until we all get to a point of dreading the "mandatory" love thy neighbor. When I say it may exist for some people, I mean literally that.

White priveledge exists for me when I'm being saturated with "the white man gets everything so easily and everyone else must work so much harder...blah blah blah." Not to be offensive but only exists in definition not experience for me. My success/failure is in my lane and my lane is my destiny designed by God. No one can interfere with that except me.

I have friends and co-workers who wear items or say things that could be conscrewed as racist or pro "whatever your ethnic group" but will defend my life the same way I would save theirs. As long as we treat each other with dignity and respect I will always see my military family as one team, one fight. Everyone gets a chance to prove me wrong.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 11:19 PM

2015-04-06T23:19:55-04:00

There is actually a huge scientific base pulling from social psychology, counseling psychology, social work, epidemiological studies on health care access and utilization (the list goes on) that provides a lot of evidence for "white privilege. "

Here is one of the foundational pieces for the concept (really good read) http://wh.agh.edu.pl/other/materialy/663_2014_03_04_15_03_55_WhitePrivilegeUnpackingtheInvisibleKnapsack.pdf

Here is a decent one in healthcare disparities ( a giant aspect of white privilege in many researchers opinions): Carlson, E. D., & Chamberlain, R. M. (2004). The black–white perception gap and health disparities research. Public Health Nursing, 21(4), 372-379.
Chicago

This last one is by a very well cited and respected researcher. He writes a ton on forms of racism, especially "color blind racism" which is present in some of the responses I've seen. http://www.unc.edu/~fbaum/teaching/articles/Bonilla-Silva-SociologicalForum2004.pdf

I hope this helps further the discussion and everyone's learning!

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Apr 6 at 2015 11:28 PM

2015-04-06T23:28:45-04:00

This "Privilege" movement is just a well worded way of justifying racism itself.

Response by Cpl Tou Lee Yang made Apr 7 at 2015 12:13 AM

2015-04-07T00:13:06-04:00

Is it just me or is the majority of the "officer" white? And the majority of the Admirals and Generals are also white.

Response by SSG Byron Napoleon made Apr 7 at 2015 12:56 AM

2015-04-07T00:56:38-04:00

Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses.

George Washington Carver

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2015 6:27 AM

2015-04-07T06:27:20-04:00

The newest privilege is "thin privilege." Would you say that exists in the military?Organizational discrimination against those with obesity? Overweight individuals are given flags, possibly considered to be "fat shamed" in weight control programs, barred from educational and career advancements, etc. What do you think of that?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2015 8:38 AM

2015-04-07T08:38:14-04:00

It is the most convenient explanation for the failure of Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society Programs.

Response by SGT Steve Oakes made Apr 7 at 2015 9:07 AM

2015-04-07T09:07:05-04:00

IMHO. As long as we continue to point out our differences we will never come together as one people. There should be no talk of race equality. It should just be a given. If someone is treating someone else differently we should just say they are being unfair to that person. We have come a long way. If someone is treating somebody of a different race badly. It may not be racism. One or both of them may just be Assholes! But we assume its racism.
Also IMHO we need to do away with all the benevolent racism. All the groups that focus on issues pertaining to just one race of people. All the groups that focus on helping just one group of people. It is hypocritical to say racism is wrong when its used against you, but ok when its used to help you.
We need to come together as one people. No matter what you believe, some religion, or just science. They all say the same thing. WE ALL CAME FROM THE SAME ORIGIN. We branched out and developed superficial differences because of where our ancestors lived and what they had to do to survive.
The only way we are going to survive in the long term is to come together. We are starting to really reach out into space. It is statistically impossible that we are alone. What if they are hostile? The global climate IS changing. There are enough nukes to literally destroy the planet. We have more pressing issues to deal with as a species than someones superficial differences brought about things that happened to their blood line generations before they were born! If we do not evolve to be one people again I believe that we will eventually go extinct.

Response by SFC Emerson "Zeus" Hazzard made Apr 7 at 2015 10:31 AM

2015-04-07T10:31:00-04:00

Short answer is yes it exists but it is one evil among a myriad of others. I have seen people discriminate and cut each other’s throat in the military for countless reasons and non reasons. I had one Hispanic NCOIC that anytime he interacted with another shop or another unit he always looked to find another Hispanic and if they were not there that day business would have to get done tomorrow. In the interest of full disclosure I am equally as guilty in that I belong to an international / worldwide fraternity. If there is a fraternity member in the organization that I am reaching out to I will reach out to them first. Is that necessarily fair to the other professionals in that organization I would say no. I should expect them to treat me with the same level of professionalism as members of my fraternal organization which by the way has both male and female members in its ranks. My last example would be a close friend who was a captain at the time. Anytime contentious issues would come up in staff calls he or one of his brothers / sisters would tap their ring finger on the table. That exercise was called a “ring check” what it meant was if you are from West Point it is time to line up. The military is full of clicks and pseudo societies like the “WPA” (Warrant Officer Protection Association), The Jump Master Mafia and the Ranger Mafia just to name a few that I have come across over the years. Does White privilege exist, yes! When taken in context does it matter anymore than the price of tea in china; for me the answer is not really; others may have had a different experience.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Apr 7 at 2015 1:25 PM

2015-04-07T13:25:36-04:00

COL Charles Williams , corollary question. Does {insert group here} privilege exist?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/06/mindy-kalings-brother-lied-about-being-black-to-get-into-med-school-calls-affirmative-action-racist/

Mindy Kaling's Brother Lied About being Black to Get into Med School, Calls Affirmative Action...

The older brother of actress Mindy Kaling has revealed after struggling to pursue his dream of becoming a doctor, he was finally accepted into medical school after he lied about his race to appear black during the admissions process.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Apr 7 at 2015 4:25 PM

2015-04-07T16:25:58-04:00

I think white privilege is an excuse to sustain, IMHO, equal opportunity and diversity. Yes, years ago there may have been more of a prominent existence of white privilege, but today I don't think so. My wife and I have both been denied access to schooling and employment due to EO and diversity. "Sorry we need to accept people of this ethnic or racial background due to the law so even though you are better qualified, well, that's the way it is." "Sorry we're looking for females of this racial/ethnic background for this position even though you are well qualified." Just like the percentage game. "Well if 67% of the population is this race/ethnic background, then why isn't 67% of the police force of this same make up instead of 90% white?" It will never work out that way unless you lower the standards to make corrections and/or tell people, as we have been told, that there is a racial/ethnic quota on hiring for jobs, entrance to colleges, etc.

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 7 at 2015 5:43 PM

2015-04-07T17:43:59-04:00

COL Charles Williams,

Sir, I had a friend in the Navy who was kicked out over an incident with the Filipino Mafia. This happened in the 80's. It was an E-5 and an E-7 who were speaking in their native tongue and they would point at him and laugh. This did not sit well with Tom who is of Irish blood Red Hair and a temper to match knocked both their lights out. 90 Days in the Brig and a less than Honorable. So when people say that only once race can be racist I call BS. Wrong all the way around but any race or group can be racist.

Speaking of Irish, which I am partly. The Irish were treated worse than most if not all groups in the new world and were used as slaves as well. In fact they tried to exterminate them from their home land. For some reason this does not make the history books like the holocaust.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 12:57 AM

2015-04-08T00:57:44-04:00

When I first heard about this I was taken by surprise. Never had I heard anything remotely like this in my time in the Army. If anything the biggest complaint I've encountered is that the privilege is given to those who are not "white". I've known NCO's who have changed their race on their ERB to "mixed" just to get a leg up on promotion. I'm not necessarily agreeing that there is any sort of trend that gives preference to any race, but I think that this argument is unfounded in most formations.
We have come a very long way as an organization. I've had the honor and privilege to serve under and over people of many different nationalities. Although I have felt discriminated against by a certain superior at one point in time due to our differing races, I believe my overall performance and dedication to my job overcame any prejudice he might have had.
I always tell my soldiers that there is only one color in the Army. And that is green. Although we are all unique in our heritages and backgrounds, we all bleed the same color and we serve under the same flag. When we put on this uniform we are all equals.
This seems to be another case of NCO's not doing their jobs of maintaining the standard. We need to be speak up and remind Soldiers that there is absolutely no privilege given to anyone in the service based on race, religion, creed, gender, or sexual preference. We should be judging our subordinates, peers, and superiors based on actions and performance. Most importantly we need to hold ourselves accountable.
I'm sure the civilian sector will be dealing with this nasty issue for a long time to come, so we need to continue to be the standard bearers and elevate ourselves above this and put this to rest once and for all.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 9:10 PM

2015-04-08T21:10:13-04:00

Sir,

I find the inclusion of "white privilege" in EO training entirely inappropriate. The US military is the closest thing we have to a meritocracy. It's certainly not a perfect system, but it's much better than much of corporate America. One of the things I've always enjoyed about the military is our ability to form a team from a wide variety of backgrounds. Some of my closest military friends are people I would not have engaged in the civilian world. The uniform and collective identity helps us move past that. Claiming that all white Soldiers inherently have an unfair advantage undermines all of this.

What I find the most problematic with the comparison of ethnic demographics to our senior leaders is that they're looking at today's numbers instead of 25-30 years ago. Servicemembers are not promoted to E9/CW5/O10 overnight. Our ethnic demographics have changed dramatically in the last few decades. Furthermore, how many ethnic minorities met the requirements to enlist and/or commission in 1981 v. today? While I admittedly have not done the research, I would bet the disparity is not nearly as severe.

Finally, I don't think anyone will argue that we have fully eradicated prejudices or discrimination but we have certainly come a long ways over the last 50 years. In my personal experiences, it is nearly eliminated at the institutional level. What remains is individuals. I don't personally subscribe to the white privilege mentality. However, for the sake of argument I would state that any number of groups enjoy "privileges" and it is certainly not exclusive to whites. This is not the forum for such a discussion however. How about instead of teaching controversial academic theories we work to eradicate damaging "politically correct" policies instead?

Response by SMSgt Bryan Raines made Apr 9 at 2015 2:41 PM

2015-04-09T14:41:59-04:00

In my 27 years in the Air Force, I had supervisors and subordinates of all races and both sexes. I worked hard to get the job done and that is how I earned my rank. I asked my subordinates to do the same. The only problem I ever had was with a female officer, OIC of my first duty section, and she just didn't like men in general. Didn't matter your race, she was an equal opportunity hater. I have never seen "white privilege" in the enlisted ranks or officer corps but I must admit I wasn't looking for it. I do know that for 0-6 and above promotion starts getting political but since I was not privy to what goes on behind closed doors I cannot say whether there were any privileges, white or otherwise, in the selection of those ranks.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 2:09 AM

2015-04-14T02:09:27-04:00

In my experience, on a personal level I've seen racism and sexism that favor white males coming from individuals, while racism and sexism favoring minority females exists on an institutional level. I'm not saying that's the general gist of it, but that's what I've experienced on the topic.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 5:54 PM

2015-04-16T17:54:50-04:00

Definitely wouldn't sit through that...Id take the hit on that one quick...that goes against a lot the army stands for and out of the military as far as morals too...unbelievable

Response by MSgt Manuel Diaz made Apr 18 at 2015 10:16 AM

2015-04-18T10:16:10-04:00

I personally am sick of all the cry babies out there that take offense to any push or shove they get going up the ladder of life and never thank the hands that pull them back up regardless it's color and It is human nature to feel your one time enemy has more advantage on you and racist thoughts abound from time to time; however when some one of your race abuses you you just think what an ass hole get up and proceed to better his attitude, well ass holes come in all colors, sexes, religions, orientations, ranks, and disliking them is not racist... it's normal. So if someone dislikes you, he may not be a racist maybe your an asshole and you don't see it. We have come a long way since MLK, we don't need to pacify anyone anymore just treat everyone equally. And do try to control the occasional racist in all of us excluding the liars.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 2:29 AM

2015-04-19T02:29:46-04:00

yeah I don't know what that crap was all about... The military was promoting racial integration and equality way before it was cool. With the exception of gay rights, it seems to me the military has always been way out front of the rest of our society when it comes to equality.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Apr 19 at 2015 2:46 AM

2015-04-19T02:46:00-04:00

The Army had an Asian Chief of Staff. *drops mic*

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 11:40 PM

2015-04-20T23:40:31-04:00

Personally I think it's a bunch of garbage. The EO program is great in theory, but it is geared towards whites views on all other races. The Army is leaps and bounds ahead of the civilian world when it applies to equality. The thing is until we stop treating each other as black, white, male, female, and so on. Things will never change totally. When you put on that uniform you are a Soldier, Airman, Marine, Sailor, and so on, and should be treated accordingly. That is the only way we will all be treated fairly. Again just my opinion.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2015 4:07 PM

2015-05-01T16:07:33-04:00

I personnally don't believe in the concept of "white privlege" and that it is a feel good politically correct term used to bash those of us that are not of a particular ethnic background. DEOMI can push it all they want but they are wrong.

Before I get bashed - yes there are problems, society is not perfect. I get that.

Society has made tremendous progress and gains in matters of equality since the end of World War II. Unfortunatly we have also created an entitlement society were some peope feel that the government and society in general owes them something. I don't believe in this - don't agree with - don't subscribe to it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 12:04 AM

2015-05-03T00:04:33-04:00

I'd like to know what white privilege really is. I know that I have had to work for everything in my life. When I have come up short, absent were my rewards. When I succeeded, I knew it. No one ever stood around with an extended hand to make sure all was good if I just didn't muster the effort. I have had the same opportunity to fail, become nothing and destroy my opportunities and my family as anyone else. I am where I am because I refuse to be a victim of my own perceived inability, not because I was born with privilege. I haven't accomplished nearly what I was born able to do, and it is because I haven't put forth the effort or sought the path to achieve it yet. I hate the phrase "white privilege." Many years ago, it may have had meaning. Today I consider it an excuse. It isn't racist or bigoted to feel that way, I know it because I know what it means to take responsibility. Everyone everywhere will experience prejudice, because prejudice is an inherent human trait that all posses. Of course there are racists out there, and they aren't limited to white people. The only one who is limited is he who limits himself, and that is the message we should be teaching in the military and at home with our children.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made May 3 at 2015 7:24 PM

2015-05-03T19:24:17-04:00

Someone's NCOER is going to take a hit.

Response by SSG Kenneth Lanning made May 3 at 2015 8:23 PM

2015-05-03T20:23:37-04:00

Get rid of everything dealing with race and ethnicity in the review/promotion boards, and no longer require the submission of a DA photo for the E-7+ boards...let actions speak louder than demographics. Until we do this, there will be a sense of preferential treatment regardless of what we do.

Personally, I could care less where someone is from, what color they are, what sex they are, or what they believe-if they can get the job done, that's all that should matter.

Response by SGT Michael Touchet made May 3 at 2015 8:30 PM

2015-05-03T20:30:23-04:00

I think it is beyond time for everyone to get over the race card. The more this is perpetuated, the more one race or another is alienated and racism persist. I sincerely do not agree with the premise of "white privilege" being a factor in today's society. Of course maybe its only because I grew up dirt poor with no better opportunities as those whom claim it does exist. So maybe its a "wealth" issue and not a "white" issue, nonetheless I opted to seize every opportunity presented to me and applied myself, worked hard and didn't blame anyone else for what I did or didn't have. I think we lessen the value of the individuals achievement when you don't allow everyone to compete fairly for what they get. You also don't always get the best of the best if you create this false sense of fairness. It's high time we are all judged by our actions, abilities and content of character and not the color of our skin. The bottom line I find the term "white privilege" offensive and it is merely another form of racism.

Response by MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM made May 3 at 2015 8:31 PM

2015-05-03T20:31:27-04:00

I don't think there is a white privelage thing but there is definitely a "good ole boys club". It all depends on where someone is stationed. If the local populous is made up of a certain race or religion then that race or religion would be more beneficial. The more diversified and educated a specific populous is the better the chances are that all would be treated equal.

Response by Cpl Matthew Wall made Jun 26 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-06-26T12:54:19-04:00

We are becoming a country that does not recognize Male or Female, but yet we recognize race? Why? When will we accept that someone can be a different race if they feel that way. Why is it acceptable that a man can be a female or a female a man, but a black person can't be white and a white person can't be black. We are all mostly so mixed in blood lines that we have no direct race. It is silliness to the 5th degree.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 8:47 PM

2015-07-02T20:47:23-04:00

I wouldn't know...I've yet to experience it. I've had performance privilege, never witnessed white privilege. I guess I've been lucky.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Sep 9 at 2015 11:42 PM

2015-09-09T23:42:32-04:00

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/11/army-concerned-with-number-of-white-men-leading-co/

Army is worried too many white men lead combat units

U.S. Army sociologists are worried that a lack of black officers leading its combat troops will have detrimental effect on minorities and lead to fewer black officers in top leadership posts.

Response by Sgt Matt Koeneman made Sep 10 at 2015 1:33 AM

2015-09-10T01:33:59-04:00

Nope, but black privilege does. Time and time again I saw African -American NCO's fail training events,such as swim qual, Yet they never received an adverse Fitness Report, Nor were they disciplined in any way. Matter of fact most of them were promoted.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2015 8:39 AM

2015-12-14T08:39:19-05:00

I was not aware this was part of the DOD Training Manual, I am not surprised that it is. We spend way too much time in classes being told how we should treat people and that everything we were taught when we were raised is wrong. Now we have to be told simply because we are white we get certain unseen advantages. I can say I have not experienced any of these special privileges and have not given any of these special privileges to other white people. We currently have an A1C in our section that we just wish we could get rid of. He is white and shows not motivation or initiative to learn or do anything. The only thing we can do is not recommend him for re-enlistment when it comes up. He gets treated no differently than anyone else who would have that same attitude.

Not saying certain people don't treat white people better than others but it is probably rare. For me it is more about the way you dress and act.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2015 10:03 PM

2015-12-14T22:03:19-05:00

maybe a little in the officer corps. Just check the family names of all the academy grads. But the whole white privilege is total BS. Just another way to feel like a victim.

Response by SGT William Howell made Dec 15 at 2015 7:10 AM

2015-12-15T07:10:48-05:00

Sad sad sad. I was an Air Force brat. I grew up and played with who ever lived close to me. White, black, latino we were kids and did not know that there was a supposed to be a difference with us. When I was in it was the same. We were held together in a common bond. There was nothing received, good or bad, that not every person in my unit would not receive the same. That was 10 years or more ago, so why now the change?

Has the Army became racist in the last 10 years? So now we are going to make an issue out of a non-issue. Perfect! Anything to keep us from wanting to kill the enemy. Keep the strife up in the ranks.

Response by Sgt Jay Jones made Dec 15 at 2015 3:24 PM

2015-12-15T15:24:14-05:00

COL Charles William my experiences in the Marine Corps are forty years old. However, I had thirty-six years of Federal Service. Basically "some" of the same mindsets exist in both. While stationed at Camp Lejeune in 1969-1970 the Base Commander issued an order that no more than four African Americans could walk together at one time. Again, this was forty years ago. I know a vast majority of these type is "orders" or "directives" no longer exist.

However, if these is any validity in this link in this "Perceived White Privileged". I would say it would come in the area of individual bias on "Evaluations". This is not limited to "Perceived White Privilege", but any bias the rating official has with themselves.

As an example, when I was a Corporal in Vietnam, I had my Commanding Officer tell me, that if I stayed in the Marine Corps I would be an Officer in ten years.

When I was promoted to Sergeant and reported to my next duty station, another Sergeant asked me a question that I put little stock into. He asked me if I was a bowler. I told him no. He said you will never make Staff Sergeant. After working hard for the next three years, I was passed over for Staff Sergeant for the second time. Needless to say, ALL of the Sergeants who were bowlers were promoted. Again this was forty years ago. I do believe some of those biases still exist. Some are along racial lines, some are along religious lines, some are along lifestyle lines, but the bottom line is that unless you are not in one of the groups I mentioned above, there is a higher percentage of being a success. IMHO.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 5:56 PM

2015-12-15T17:56:08-05:00

I can only say that, with 20 years of experience I haven't seen it as a significant issue. From my view point, every race and gender seems to have identical opportunities. Of course, that's only my own narrow viewpoint, but I like to think that military is generally more egalitarian than the population at large.

Response by SPC Isaac Stafford made Feb 16 at 2016 11:28 PM

2016-02-16T23:28:34-05:00

Personally as an E-4 I didn't see race . I just looked to the person on my left and right and worked with them to get the job done. It didn't ever matter what color, creed or religion they were. I went into the military to learn a trade and to protect the freedoms of others. I learned quite a lot from many different people from different walks of life.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2016 10:04 AM

2016-04-28T10:04:16-04:00

my experience with white privilege: at mob station prior to last deployment to Iraq. brand new E5 is being an ass and giving E4 a hard time. E4 finally has enough and tells him to "piss off". E4 gets negative counselling statement and 30 days extra duty. The very next day 2 PFCs get into an all out brawl in the barracks. furniture broken, holes knocked in walls, etc. They get a "talking to" by the 1SG, no paperwork, no extra duty. The E4 was white, both PFCs and the 1SG were black. There's your "white privilege"

Response by CPO William A. Bullard Jr. made Dec 29 at 2016 7:21 AM

2016-12-29T07:21:39-05:00

Colonel, this is "suit" B/S. I've seen this before; quarter of a century ago gut less leadership in my Navy came out and said you could not use the word"flip chart" anymore or "black board", as an instructor because the phrases were 'insensitive' to Filipinos and Black people who were sailors and that both were to be called VAp 'boards' or 'charts' [VideoApplications] and that 'we' instructors would be counseled for a failure to use those terms if it came to their attention of NavalEd/Trng. We both know what the term 'counseling' means. #1 That was no "mistake" and there was no such thing a cost over run on AirForce or the F35. #2 The "SWAMP" is in the Puzzle Palace in Arlington #3The current crop of "Generals" and "Admirals" marking time around the table at JCS speaking from my perspective are micromanaging twits and I'm not the first "Chief" or "Ol Sojer" NCO to say that; when CNO Mullins killed the next generation of Marine Corps armored Amphib. Attack Vehicle there were a few of us retired Chiefs and Gunn'y people that wanted to separate the Marine Corps from the Navy. Believe me when I say that there is "nothing" that comes out of the Puzzle Palace in Arlington that is a "mistake"; those clowns know. That's the scary bad part. #4 They're all CEOs in training in my estimation Gen'l. Schwarzkopf was the last real killer; the rest are all scared of their post retirement consultancies. #5 Patton, Halsey, LeMay, and Puller would laugh themselves silly watching this crowd and their "mistakes"; they were killers I don't quite know what this crowd is.

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Feb 6 at 2020 10:09 PM

2020-02-06T22:09:41-05:00

VERY INTERESTING!
As Female who Enlisted with BA degree, I have definite opinions!
Agree with SGT Khalid Wise!
I Actually experienced reverse discrimination and Definite Sexual bias against me as SP4(P) in ARMY 1983-1987!
Also stationed at Combat Post in Germany before the ‘Wall’ came down!

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made Jun 12 at 2020 6:03 PM

2020-06-12T18:03:37-04:00

With the creation of a State within a State through Welfare. Bringing increased broken homes, incarceration rates, Ebonics and rap, racism has increased. The belief in victimhood and identity politics too.
White privilege may exist for a %. But for most, white privilege is a way to increase the divide between Americans based on color. Making a common enemy. Hitler did the same thing is 38.
The problem I see, is the Saxon has never been passive. I fear this is the desired effect for increasing the pressure based on race. It has been 60yrs since the 60's. The agenda has worked. It is in front of our eyes on TV. The burning and looting will make things worse. That is the desired effect. IMO Sir.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2020 6:51 AM

2020-06-13T06:51:33-04:00

We focus so much on Diversity and EO in the Army today that our enemies now send out phishing emails with links to "EO" and "Diversity" training, because we are more likely to click on them.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jun 13 at 2020 9:05 AM

2020-06-13T09:05:38-04:00

I served a long time and for many years I never saw nor heard of white privileged in the ranks. We didn't have time of patience for that bullshit. The only privilege I heard of was RHIP (Rank has its privilege) and even that was rare. We all pulled together for a common purpose and didn't put up with any of that your this color or that color crap. If you were a POS it was not because of your color. Having come from an Infantry start I can not say it may have happened in other branches of services but I never saw it or heard of it. We did however joke quite a bit about some things as in there were 2 SFC Hicks in one of my units one white boy me and one black fellow and the 1SG used to announce he wanted salt Hicks or Pepper Hicks down in his office and we had some fun with that at his experience. The only Privilege I ever had in uniform was to serve with some great Soldiers and leaders and on occasion with some toxic and useless leaders and troops. Military units can not function or exist with racism at its core. A realist would also understand that some racist actually make it into units and maybe even hide their sickness for some time but in the end they get straight of they get the hell out.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Jun 13 at 2020 1:39 PM

2020-06-13T13:39:04-04:00

We are all biased in some way or another. The term “privilege” is divisive and it undermines what it is trying to achieve.

If you are white you will tend to gravitate towards white people in social settings and friends. The same with any race or culture. That is human nature. If you are white you are the majority and if we are all biased and gravitate towards associating with “our own” then it does make it harder for other races to compete. Not because of racism but simply because we naturally gravitate towards people that look like us.

I think the military does a better job than 99% of the civilian workforce at fighting unconscious bias simply by uniform and grooming standards. We all look alike except for slight differences in slime color and hair texture. The military also actually takes active measures to combat real racism within its ranks. The threat of a court martial and jail time is a pretty good incentive to not be a racist openly while in uniform.

I guess I just don’t believe that white privilege is the correct term and we should all accept the fact that we all are biased and we have to work on overcoming it within ourselves regardless of what race you are.

Response by LTC Philip Marlowe made Feb 4 at 2021 7:03 PM

2021-02-04T19:03:55-05:00

I am a fmr EOA at the 2 star level. I completed DEMOI in the summer of 1999. I have been associated with the military since 1970 (Enlisted) and as a Commissioned Officer (1980) and fully retired in 2012. I served in both the Active and Reserve Components. I saw racial conflict during my time as an enlisted even as far as 'fights' between Black/White soldiers in the barracks. I did not understand any of this at the time because I grew up in a diverse neighborhood, went to a very diverse technical trades high school, so I was not as 'exposed' I suspect as others may have been and was only slightly aware of racism. From 1987 to January 2020, I have been involved in Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action in the US Army (AC/RC) and with the US Dept of Labor. I firmly do not believe in 'white privilege'. I had the 'privilege' of studying and graduating from High School, the privilege of enlisting (rather than getting drafted) in the USAF during Vietnam - my 'high school' friends (Black, White, Hispanic and Asian) had that privilege and choice as well. I had the 'privilege' of serving as a Law Enforcement Officer and I served with a department that had Black, White, Hispanic and Asian officers serving as well. I worked with, supervised and led and served under Black, Asian and Hispanic (male and female) enlisted, SNCOs and Officers The college I went to and graduated from was very integrated and at no time did I feel that I some how had the 'upper hand' because I was white. I served in the USAF to get my college paid for - which anyone willing to do the same was welcome to do so.

Bottom line, I think espousing 'white privilege' and 'critical race theory' is antithetical to the Military and will do more harm than good. I am not saying the US Military is perfect, but I can think of no other organizations where diversity has been more accepted than by the US Military.