Does your gender make you a better marksman?

SGT Ben Keen — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 11:00:08 -0400

Overheard an interesting discussion in the lunch area at work yesterday. At another table, a guy was talking about weapons and whatnot. Let me start by saying a lot of what he was saying was just untrue craziness but whatever that isn't the point. He did make one comment that got me thinking. According to him, females make better marksman than guys because of what he classified as "built in gun rests" and a wider base.

During my eight and half years of service I been to plenty of ranges and seen plenty of great marksmen both male and female. So I'm not saying that one gender has the advantage over the other. Yet it did get me thinking. Is there any advantage that one gender has over the other? Personally, I would say no, it comes down to your ability to follow the fundamentals. So now I figured it would be a fun discussion to have here on RallyPoint. So, to the RP Community, do you feel that gender plays a role in marksmanship?

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Jul 8 at 2015 11:05 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 11:05:24 -0400

Should this be a question? NO! Women can shoot just as good as a man.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2015 11:06 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 11:06:56 -0400

Yes and no. Typically, we probably heard that females make great marksmen (or markswomen? LOL) because they tend to approach the matter as not knowing much. Well if some the male ego be shredded/proned away before approaching a learning platform then the results may be better. Socrates once said, "I am a wise man I know nothing". It is exactly why people who never EVER drove may learn how to drive a manual (stick-shift) better than those who have driven automatic (standard) for decades.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2015 11:10 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 11:10:22 -0400

I would have lost any credibility for anyone that says that. Before this explodes to an assemblage of memes and posts of famous snipers I will just say this. It is an individual skill that you must work and develop with hours and hours of practice. Some may show an early heightened skill level over their novice counterparts but when they compete against a professional they will be dismissed quickly.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2015 11:10 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 11:10:36 -0400

There is some argument that the way females eyes work makes them better marksmen, although I haven't seen any research to back it up. The argument about "built in stock rest" is a complete fallacy as every bit of experience I have had with teaching females to shoot points to the exact opposite. As for the wider base, I think stance has more to do with it than width of hips, but once again I have no research to back it up.

My wife makes an argument that the good females marksmen are such because of self selection. Basically because there are so few professional female marksmen, the ones that exist strive to be the best overall, not just the best females, and therefore comparatively are excellent.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jul 8 at 2015 11:12 AM

SrA Edward Vong — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 11:12:25 -0400

Yes and No, depends on the person really, but here's an interesting article on one of the world's best snipers.

Lady Death, the female sniper who killed 300 Nazis

Titled 'Battle for Sevastopol' in Russia but 'Indestructible' in Ukraine, the biopic tells the remarkable story of Lyudmila Pavlichenko who reportedly killed 300 Nazis during World War Two.

Response by Sgt Mark Ramos made Jul 8 at 2015 11:16 AM

Sgt Mark Ramos — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 11:16:01 -0400

Before the PC police get all snitty, excellent question! Ignoring difference doesn't equal respect. I have seen study reports that women are better at multitasking than men. But, that men are better at focusing on one single task. So, it could quite possibly indicate an advantage towards men when assistance is involved, like a spotter. But maybe lone sniper jobs are better suited for women. Or, in reality, the advantage may be so slight that other mitigating factors outweigh any advantage. Nevertheless, an interesting thought to ponder.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2015 11:58 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 11:58:08 -0400

Based on my personal experience, I can't really say one gender or another has the advantage. I do however believe that those that have never fired a weapon have a better advantage over those that have simply for the fact that they haven't developed bad habits and they are more likely to follow the fundamentals easier. Again, this is just based off of my personal experience.

Response by SPC Troy Mclendon made Jul 8 at 2015 12:15 PM

SPC Troy Mclendon — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:15:19 -0400

I think the main thing that helps to shoot straight is one the weapon you're using two how much you know about the weapon you're using three a steady hand and four a good eye

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made Jul 8 at 2015 12:16 PM

SA Harold Hansmann — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:16:20 -0400

In my personal opinion, I believe a majority of it has to do with dedication. My wife kills more deet than I do, because she is more dedicated to putting in the freezer and is still fairly new to the sport, where as I would rather be duck hunting. For me, deer hunting has become easy and not very challenging.

Response by SPC Chris Early made Jul 8 at 2015 12:47 PM

SPC Chris Early — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:47:37 -0400

i believe its all on the individual, i think for female soldiers msy put in more effort in marksmanship just to prove that they are just as equally qualified.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 8 at 2015 2:29 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:29:21 -0400

Let's try rephrasing the question to:

"Are there physiological advantages that apply to marksmanship, that one gender possesses over the other, and if so, what are they?"
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s1 [login to see] -y#page-2

"The current study aimed to compare shooting performance between male and female athletes during the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Rifle Championship from the 2007 to 2013 seasons. This sport is distinct from most competitive sports as it requires little physical exertion, so physiological/ biomechanical differences between the genders that generally bring about superior performance by males relative to females may have only minimal effect on shooting performance. NCAA competitions, unlike Olympic shooting events today, allow male and female shooters to compete against each other. Using archival data covering a period of 7 years from both the team and individual tournaments, 555 scores of the best 149 shooters among mostly U.S. collegiate athletes (the best of whom went on to compete in the Olympics) were analyzed using a generalized estimating equation (GEE) model. We found no differences in performance between the genders both during team and individual competitions. The results suggest that Olympic shooting is exercising a “separate and (un)equal” policy which should be reconsidered."

Gender Performance in the NCAA Rifle Championships: Where is the Gap? - Online First - Springer

Response by SGT Richard H. made Jul 8 at 2015 2:44 PM

SGT Richard H. — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:44:54 -0400

My gender doesn't make me a better marksman....It's my grip, stock weld, sight picture, breathing, and trigger squeeze that do that.

Response by SPC George Adkins made Jul 8 at 2015 4:13 PM

SPC George Adkins — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 16:13:00 -0400

I never served with females while in the Army, so I can't comment on this side. However, after training dozens of males and females in basic marksmanship in the civilian side, I believe when it comes to beginning shooters, females tend to do better than similarly untrained males. Guys tend to have more of an "I got it" attitude and aren't as receptive to instruction. Females tend to be much more receptive to learning from a zero start point. Beyond the initial training, males and females are much the same. When both sexes put in the same effort, they get the same results.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Feb 29 at 2016 12:00 AM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Mon, 29 Feb 2016 00:00:35 -0500

I was involved in Marksmenship training and shot in Division and Intermural Matches. I think the main aspects in either gender are their willingmess to learn, quality of instruction and mentality towards weapons. One of the best shots I saw with a rifle was a female who grew up shooting NRA Matches. She became a distinguished shooter and has been a National Champion Several times.
Physically females have shorter arms and smaller hands than males, That sometimes comes into play with manipulating the weapon. The M-9 Barretta tended to be troublesome to people with small hands.
Extremely tall shooters (Mostly Males fall into this category) can have issues. Flexible shooters with a lower center of gravity ( Mostly females) can be great shooters

Response by Maj John Bell made Feb 29 at 2016 8:28 AM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 29 Feb 2016 08:28:55 -0500

Finally!!! here is an issue that is easily measured with scientific accuracy, that cannot be disputed. If the sniper is shooting for me, I do not care what the physiological factors are. All I want to know is are the rounds on target? Meet that requirement, and you can be a buffalo in a union suit on roller skates.

Response by PVT Mark Brown made Jun 28 at 2016 5:30 PM

PVT Mark Brown — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 17:30:47 -0400

Not sure if there is scientific standing one way or the other. However, in many of the competitive shooting disciplines I have interest in, I have seen more and more women getting into the sport with co-ed of female only and think over all the few women I have had the chance to watch, they seem to have some instinctive 3rd eye for shooting. In the long run, practice is the leveler. Comes down to training.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jun 28 at 2016 5:59 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 17:59:16 -0400

Obviously there are physical things women can do that men can't. Reminds me of the lean over, put your head against the wall, grab the chair, and then stand up. Women can do it, men can't. My first thought wasn't all the controlled matches like Camp Perry wherein you see equally fabulous male and female shooters. I started thinking about the biathlon. Extreme physical stress, then calm down and shoot, repeat, repeat, repeat. Although overall greater muscle mass gives a time edge to the men, I don't recall the shooting skill being lessened with either gender. So my starting bottom line would be there's no difference so long as all the required skills, mental game, etc. are there. But then again, nobody could beat Annie Oakley!

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2016 4:13 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 16:13:57 -0400

From my personal observations competing in regional and national-level matches, women have a slight advantage firing offhand rifle and that's about it. It's not enough to make female shooters definitively better than males, and it seemed like there was a pretty even split between male and female champions given the larger number of male shooters.

Response by SFC Kevin C. made Sep 3 at 2016 6:13 PM

SFC Kevin C. — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 18:13:34 -0400

Lots of responses here, but in my experience (26 years in the Army) both genders "can" be either good or bad marksmen. Yes the more time spent training will make you a better marksman. But for those units that only get the basic amount of range time more men are better then female at the range. I don't know if that is from the initial training they received in Basic Training or if they had some training prior to the service. This is just my hands on experience.

Response by LCDR Gabriel Helms made Sep 3 at 2016 10:27 PM

LCDR Gabriel Helms — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 22:27:38 -0400

I've heard this, but slightly different. I was told they better INITIALLY because they don't have the muscle strength to manhandle the weapon. As such, they rely more on their skeletal structure to support the weapon, which makes for a steadier shot. I'd say it's plausible.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2018 9:47 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Mar 2018 21:47:12 -0400

No, the shooter makes the better shot.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2022 8:31 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2022 08:31:09 -0400

History abounds with amazing stories of deadly accuracy in battle from both sexes. From the teams of female Russian snipers to White Feather, the AT&T effect was well preserved. Zaytsez and Pavlichenko from Russian, Hayha from Finland. Kyle and Hathcock (I served with White Feather's son at Cherry Point - he went on to retire from the Corps as a Gunny and the Captain of the Marine Corps Rifle Team - Carlos Hathcock III) both represented the US with honor and skill. The fact that the Russians fielded approximately 2000 female snipers during WWII but it took the US until 2021 to graduate a female sniper from Benning makes a statement. The statement? Make better use of the assets available to you. Doesn't answer the OPs question but hopefully provides food for thought.

Semper Fi.

Response by MSG Lonnie Averkamp made Sep 10 at 2022 6:26 PM

MSG Lonnie Averkamp — Sat, 10 Sep 2022 18:26:47 -0400

Of course, this is a reasonable topic.

I have trained soldiers, civilians, police officers, and youth in marksmanship. My BEST and WORST shooters were females. Virtually all instructors will tell you that shooting is mostly psychological and technique.

As a trained Lie Detector Operator, I can tell you that females process much more information emotionally. If a woman is uncomfortable or intimidated with the feel of using a firearm, then it is a high mountain to overcome this barrier. Also, because of (generally) less upper body strength, I have seen females fatigue quicker. Because of this, their previous shot consistency can deteriorate.

However, those women who do well at shooting can do exceptionally well. The German Army suffered greatly from female Russian snipers during World War 2. Our youth group participated in a national rifle competition, and one girl on our team tied for First Place, Nationally, in Air Rifle, and another took Second Place in .22 Rifle. However, out of 18 shooters, there were only 2 girls that were interested in participating.

I had another young lady, about 9 or 10 years old, who came on to shoot for her BB-Gun classification medal. The guns were set up on the line, with targets ready at 5 meters. She was at the box of safety glasses, trying one, then another, then another.

After watching this for about 5 minutes, I asked what the problem was in her finding a set of safety glasses and coming to the Firing Line. She replied, "I need to find a pair that matches my shoes."

(Never had THAT problem with boys.)