Duty over Rank, have you ever been in that situation? How have you worked it?

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:33:33 -0400

Recently I had a Weapons Cleaning Detail in my Arms Room. My 1SG told me, Camacho, you don't accept any dirty weapon, you are the Armorer. If a SGT tries to turn in a dirty weapon and tells you something about your rank, don't accept it, call me and I'll be here right away! Also, as a Supply Clerk, we Quartermasters have a phrase, In God we trust, everybody else signs a hand receipt. And we work it that way.

Have you ever be in a position where you had to take a decision over somebody that outranks you?

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 22 at 2015 2:41 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:41:08 -0400

As an Intel Guy, I was often in charge of Classified, or the Vault.

There was MANY an occasion when I would see a combination (passcode, as we used double combos) written down on someone's desk, and I would change every combo in the building, send out an email, and get blowback.

My response would often be "Sir, I wouldn't have to change it so often if people would follow proper procedures. I'm not going to jail for anyone. As long as I've got this letter of appointment, I'll change these locks every time I even 'think' there's a compromise. That said, you might not be the problem... but one of your peers is. I can't write him up, but that doesn't mean we can't police our own."

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 2:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:41:23 -0400

Yes. SOPs or policies usually handle that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 2:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:43:13 -0400

Lets take this one step farther and remove any possible issues. Ill take my Platoon as an example. My directive to them is simple. Squad Leaders you inspect your Team Leaders weapons. Team Leaders you inspect your Teams Weapons. Squad Leaders will also spot check the Team Leader's team. I will be at the door to the Arms Room and spot check everyone.

Guess what. No issues and everyone is happy. Well a few haven't been happy...

But as far as your question goes. No it shouldnt be a issue. You are the Unit Amrorer so in reality you are a spokesman for the CDR (it is his property book), and your responsibility is to ensure his equipement is looking good and servicible.

Good question.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 22 at 2015 2:43 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:43:44 -0400

I was a 2LT and was picked to be OIC of rail loading a heavy Brigade Combat Team. Rail loading stalled as units abandoned their vehicles, so I called Brigade about the problem. I started seeing a lot of CPTs and MAJs from various battalions to ensure their soldiers did the right thing. Mission accomplished, but I was the fall guy for not controlling 200 soldiers on half a mile of rail loading.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 2:44 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:44:01 -0400

Yes. As an example, when I was made Detachment Sergeant of my Preventive Medicine unit, I was just a lil ole' SGT/E-5. I had an E-6/SSG reporting to me. When I gave an order, his response was "Roger, SGT. I'll get it taken care of."

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 2:45 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:45:11 -0400

I have had one issue that I can think that was similar to this. Back when I was a SGT I was an OC on a training team in the National Guard. We had a SFC that lacked the skills needed for the job. It was a very administrative heavy position and knowledge of training units was crucial. In this he lacked both. He was asked me to help him with his work such delayed me. It got to the point I went to the OIC of the Team and he was let go from the team. He should have never been there. It is hard to train a ABCT when you don't have a clue about their assests or even basic maneuver concepts. I was surprised he was even an SFC.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 2:47 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:47:10 -0400

In certain situations, there will be Rank v Position (The Dawn of Justice... sorry, had to do that). However, customs and courtesies will still apply, but that does not mean your rules for your section/detail/whatever can be ignored simply because somebody outranks you.

A great example of this is the PAC/Orderly Room. As a 74D, there is no better place for me to work. If I have a deadline set for something by the Commander/1SG, I need my stuff, and I will be damned if I take the heat because a PSG doesn't want to meet my timeline.

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 22 at 2015 2:57 PM

SSG John Erny — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:57:26 -0400

Yes, it happens all the time to Parachute Riggers. At a fun jump I had a MAJ who was just certain that a jumper was going to turn in to a lawn dart just because the pack tray was loose on the parachute. That is kind of like saying the present inside of a package is no good because the wrapping job is sloppy. I told her the chute was fine and that I would jump it myself; she flew off the handle and went all “Ranky” on me over it. I was not worried about it because I knew the division parachute officer would take my side all day long. Then Major West BTW

Few hours latter they show up at the issue facility and there the same chute is, I take in the chute, put the pack tray back in place which she had pulled wide open. Put it back in the issue cage, her recovery team collective stare was priceless!

Don't mistake your rank for my position!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 4:19 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 16:19:48 -0400

There comes a time in everyone's military career where they must witness or cross-over this road.

I have personally had to redirect a field grade officers misguided directions for myself and my subordinates in an effort to exercise my responsibilities as an E-6 Radiology NCOIC. Understanding your position, the authority affiliated with that position, and how to manage situations respectfully and professionally are of vital importance. While faced with my particular dilemma, a LTC, a MAJ, and a physician were all unhappy that I "respectfully" neglected to do as they ordered me and my subordinates. I told them simply that their wishes contradicted the way in which my Radiology operated which was clearly indicated in my SOP. Furthermore, if they had any questions they could take them up directly with my OIC (COL of Radiology) or my Deputy Chief of Clinical Services (COL over all Clinical Operations for the CSH). Needless to say, they were pissed but had to do as I politely instructed them initially.

The water gets deep sometimes though...

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 22 at 2015 4:26 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 16:26:45 -0400

Having served as an armorer as well, it was my duty as the commander's armorer to ensure that no weapon was turned in that did not meet the required level of cleanliness and everyone within the company knew that I had the backing of both the CO and the 1SG. It was a little different for me than you, as I was a SGT, but there is no difference in the fact that should you get inspected by higher and your arms room is substandard, it directly reflects upon the commander. As long as you are respectful and tactful in the manner in which you handle and carry yourself while conducting business as the armorer, you should have no issues at all.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Apr 22 at 2015 4:44 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 16:44:17 -0400

Personnel, Cooks, Supply, Medical.

Always get my respect no matter their rank.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 7:52 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 19:52:30 -0400

Its YOUR area. As long as you do it respectfully then there can be nothing said.

Response by SFC Chris Sedlock made Apr 22 at 2015 8:25 PM

SFC Chris Sedlock — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:25:46 -0400

In UAS rank doesnt exist in the shelter. By that if a pfc just said to me 'check out your oil temp' its perfectly acceptable. The line is only drawn when insulted or demeaned.

If rank did matter, the pfc that im flying with might have caught something i missed, or saw something i didnt and not said anything assuming i saw it too, resulting in a possible total loss.

With rank not existing in the shelter it increases crew coordination and multiplies mission accomplishment.

Within your armorer cage you are command major general of the armies, and ill close with google your '4th general order'

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Apr 22 at 2015 8:54 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:54:12 -0400

Always respect the rank, they need to respect the positional authority. Been there tons of times.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 22 at 2015 9:00 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:00:58 -0400

The longer you are in, the more it will happen. Respect and tact goes the distance, but always have the CO on speed dial. In aviation, no commander wants anyone to dictate maintenance to them. But when you have upcoming operations, contract assets, weather, support, mandatory part retirements, etc, that is why I got additional "command migraine" pay. Respect and tact.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 9:11 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:11:21 -0400

I think most people understand the logic of do it right and do it respectfully. The ones that don't usually get corrected pretty quickly.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 9:11 PM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:11:38 -0400

My favorite was always when as a Junior Officer I was Officer of the Deck, and a Department Head was Engineering Officer of the Watch. (Especially when it was the Department Head I reported to.) For 6 hours you have positional authority over them. You just had to be making a sound military decision when you disagreed, and not doing it just to mess with someone senior to you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 9:22 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:22:46 -0400

My experience as an armorer, and now working outside my MOS (11B) running a supply room (92Y), rank will almost always win in the end. Either your superiors that are supposed to watch your back will forget their spines at CIF, or they'll just wait you out.

Individual expierences may vary, despite rhetoric.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 22 at 2015 9:40 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:40:05 -0400

Military police officers on occasion deal with "rank pullers" and sometimes spouses but that is a different discussion. Many of my MPs who are young and performing law enforcement duties are inexperienced with dealing with rank pullers, but I tell them to stand their ground, be tactful, and to be polite but do not seem like a push over. If the situation warrants my visit and I normally will go to every single call to insure a quality customer experience, I will deal with rank pullers. If what I do and say does not convince the rank puller of their possible creation of an unethical and possible illegal act due to an obstruction of justice by intimidation but in different words, I will call my civilian commander of the watch who will not take shit from no one.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 9:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:46:34 -0400

I also work in an arms room and I occasionally have the same issue. People assume that because I am a PFC they can tell me what to do, but when it comes down to it, if somebody is telling you to violate a regulation or SOP, that is NOT a lawful order. The best way to handle the situation is to be tactful, but hold your ground. Tact is very important because you don't need to make enemies.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 22 at 2015 9:59 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 21:59:12 -0400

On an aircrew it's about position not rank. As a captain I commanded a crew with a major navigator. I treated him with respect but the final decision in flight were mine.

Also, when general officers fly the pilot in the other seat is an instructor. There have been a few instances when the instructor had to say, "Sir, I have the aircraft." To keep everyone safe.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 10:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:00:29 -0400

It happens a lot. Really all you have to do is make sure you remain respectful and maintain your military bearing. You might take some flak in the short term, but it never hurts to inform whoever it is that their rank doesn't countermand your standing orders.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 1:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 01:25:55 -0400

I am currently working a situation where our supply CPL thinks that he is king of the hill and outranks me because "he is in an E6 position."
He has no grip on reality but the command team has fostered a very dangerous environment for him letting him skate out of multiple ART 15 infractions because they are afraid to piss him off. A prime example of weak leadership in today's Army.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 1:59 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 01:59:23 -0400

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member In every unit (4) I served as 1SG (6.5 yrs) and one HHB....I made it a point that every OFFICER, NCO, and SOLDIER in the unit knew and understood, that if my armorer (ranged in rank from PFC to SGT) would not accept your weapon and he got any BS from anyone, the next attempt to turn it in was "after I inspected it". I didn't care what the rank was, Officer, Sr. NCO, I didn't care.....and it worked.

Did I have to actually re-inspect weapons, yes in the beginning, but it only took one time for offenders regardless of rank to learn that was law. When it came to weapons...the Armorer was Hercules and I was his King.

It was only an issue twice, one was a 2LT in the S3 Shop and a MSG also from the S3 Shop. For the LT, the armorer came and got me after the LT said he out ranked the 1SG and he would take the weapon. Upon arriving at the arms room door, the LT started to say something. I held my hand up and yelled out..."Everyone out of the damn area, now, move your asses...you stay right here LT. I then told my training NCO to get me the S3, the Bn CSM and tell them I needed to see them over here immediately, before I went to jail for killing an LT. The LT (been in the unit about 30 days)looked at me like was insane. 5 minutes later in walks the S3 and the CSM. I said, "OK, now let me explain how it works around here SIR! I'm the HQs 1SG and this is MY ARMORER, MINE, NOT YOURS...now you see this CSM and this Major, whom both out rank me.....Now, MAJ. XXXX what happens if the armorer does not accept your weapon when it's turned in?" MAJ XXXX said, "The weapon has to be inspected by you 1SG before the armorer can accept it for turn in." I looked at the LT and said, Now SIR, since you have heard it from the S3 and wittnessed by the CSM who is here to keep me from going to jail...let me tell you this...don't you ever argue with or try to give my armorer an order that will violate an order he has been given by me! You don't have to say anything, only leave and go clean your weapon. And oh by the way, I will be doing my weapons inspections for turn in at 10 PM tonight. I fully expect you to be the only one I will be seeing! I hope we understand how it works in this unit. You may out rank me with your no time in grade ass, but I run this company which you, the S3, CSM, and even the Bn Cdr are assigned too. There are 4 folks in this company you better never get on their wrong side, my armorer, my supply sgt, my training NCO and last but not least me. Now have a nice day. Both the CSM and the S3 could not stop snickering under their breath.

The S3 said, come with me LT, we're gonna have a little chat in my office....the CSM said he needed that good laugh, cussed me out (again) and I gave my armorer the next day off......because I made him stay with me till 10PM, just to prove a point. (Yes, I did pay for his evening meal he picked up for both of us from BK).

For the MSG, it was easy... I cussed him out, told him if wanted to be the 1SG and run things his way, go see the CSM, otherwise he would be here all night, no one would be released to go home until I personnally inspected his weapon after he went back and cleaned it and my armorer felt my inspection met his standards. After he left I passed the conversation on to the CSM, who then had a one on one closed door session with him. I never had another problem with him again either. I could have handled that one different with other Sr. NCOs, but this particular one had been relieved as 1SG in a sister unit, and was camping out in the 3 shop....worthless!

Everywhere I grew up in the Army...Armorer's word was law when it came to weapons turn in. If I found a dirty weapon in my arms room, I made the armorer clean it...as he should never have accepted it.

Hang in there! Good leaders will back you up, if not,they have no business putting you in that situation and also make me wonder if they deserved to be in their position if they didn't support you 100% of the time.

Yes I was an ass at times when it came to Officers and Sr. NCOs, but the bottom line there is that the SOLDIERS needed to know there was only ONE STANDARD and the rules applied to all. That they will respect and have no complaint when it comes to them continuing to meet that standard!

Remember that when you put Sergeant stripes and 1SG stripes on one day...Good luck!

Response by SSG Melvin Nulph made Apr 23 at 2015 5:50 AM

SSG Melvin Nulph — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 05:50:05 -0400

My last tour in S.Korea, I had a list of duties that was unbelievable. The main one according to our commander was D.I.C. or Deputy Installation Commander as an E-5 (P), on Camp Edwards. One of the jobs that was never done, never ending but if you had any family members over there you wanted to make sure they was signed up with him/her in case something happened so they was taken care of because one of my jobs was to have the paperwork to get them back to the states and out of harms way as fast as posable. I answered to BG. Gen. Flowers and also had to sign for all real property things such as all the buildings on Camp Edwards. When the time come for me to do this I found out that two or three buildings was no longer there. I was not born yesterday, they wanted me to sign that the buildings was, that was what everyone else did and got away with it. During one of the many breafings he was letting us know that its very important that we do our jobs right and he would not except anything less from us no matter how thankless the job could be. I found out that the Korean men in this one platoon I was in charge of also took care of the 8th Army thing that ment I had to answer to a 3 star as well as a 4 star in charge of the combined forces over there. I believe the 4 star was Gen. Luck. He didn't ask you to do your job right he demanded it and I didn't know or because he, they or whatever was not going to cut it. To make a long story short, B.G. Flowers also had a thousand and one things going and he wanted my paperwork signed and off his list of things to do. No one wanted to help me find out what the buildings was,where they was at one time or even what happened to them. I wasn't going to sing the stuff that wasn't right and he was beyond pissed. Until I repeated the words he said to us about what we say is no different then the words coming from his mouth to them. He used some ruff words trying to get me to sing them also. But when I asked him if he wanted to use his rank to get me to do something that wound come back to haunt us all, I'd like someone that cared about my rank and position because the one man I thought I could trust, may have changed his mind. (Or words to that affect) You could see he was under a lot of stress, I seen him every week for about two or three months, did things above what he ever asked of me and never seen him like this, when he asked who I think I need I said, "The 8th Army Commander or Gen. Luck", he about come unglued thinking I was being a wise guy. Was so mad I'm not sure if he just held his young or what but he shot out of the room red as all get out.
It seemed like forever but was less than 10 minutes he come back and I am so glad he was the one I could trust and a very smart soldier/Gen.Officer. I really thought doing the right thing was going to get me in jail. I and everything he needed he understudy, told me the things he could and apologized for his actions. It took a few wavers and a lot of digging to find out where the buildings went but things worked out. He made his 2nd star and was the Post Commander when I came to Ft. Leonard Wood, MO. for almost a year.
When I got back to Camp Edwards, my 1SG. Was waiting for me at the gate. BG.Flowers called my commander let him know the stress he felt he put me through and wanted him to make sure I knew he apreashated

Response by SGT John Wesley made Apr 23 at 2015 5:58 AM

SGT John Wesley — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 05:58:02 -0400

I worked Customs for 6 months while in Korea. That was rough! I was a PFC and I was having to tell Cpt's and below that they couldn't ship some stuff home. I only had 1 Cpt that I red flagged his shipment, as he tried the outrank me stuff on a big box of fake Polo shirts.

His stuff sat in a customs warehouse for 6 months, which he had to pay for.... For the most part I never had an issue as they all knew the rules.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 9:14 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 09:14:45 -0400

Absolutely...most of my career....as a senior NCO (E7-E9) in high level staff positions when most others in similar positions were LTC (05s). The worst culprits were a few general's wives who thought they wore their husband's stars...most however, were very kind and humble and sensitive to their position and your own.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Apr 23 at 2015 9:15 AM

SSG Richard Reilly — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 09:15:33 -0400

"I will walk my post from Flank to Flank and take no $h!t from any rank."

Right after 9/11 occured I was on guard at the Brigade headquarters. As a SPC I didn't really do more than just follow the orders and hide behind the shield of shame. However A MAJ I knew walked up and my orders were to not let anyone in without a ID card. Well his was in his office. So I said he couldn't come in. He proceeded to bow his oak leaf cluster, huff and puff, attempt to convince me what my orders really were, and then stormed off. He later returned and as he did the S3 SGM came out and the MAJ proceeded to apologize.

Response by MSgt Dwyane Watson made Apr 23 at 2015 11:37 AM

MSgt Dwyane Watson — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 11:37:43 -0400

I love your saying, "In God we trust, everybody else signs a hand receipt"! This is awesome, I would steal this if I was still active duty, awesome.

When I was stationed at RAF Lakenheath I worked midshift sheet metal shop, well we had so many pro-supers deployed I was asked to be an acting pro-super as a TSgt. There were many times I had to over rule MSgts because of my position, as long as I did it by the reg and it was the only way to get aircraft maintenance performed the correct way I was always backed up by my squadron supervisors. When you act as a representative for upper management and follow the regs, making decisions over higher ranking people happens, and if they are a competent person who outranks you they will realize the position you are in.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 6:50 PM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:50:54 -0400

Meet my entire job! "Sir you didn't come fit your helmet, that's why I removed it from your locker, you can fly after you receive a proper fit or not at all." We don't do it often, but when we do, we have a commander who backs us up. If they don't do what we need them to, they aren't safe, they won't fly.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 6:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:57:24 -0400

As an MP, that's an every day occurrence.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 7:33 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:33:37 -0400

No where is this situation more prevalent than being HHC Commander at a BN in the Reserves.
I had CPT and higher pulling rank when they didn't like what instructions I put out, per the BC's directives. Even worse was NCOs E6 through MSG run to their Section Chief to overrule my orders. I stuck with the plan, and my answer: "Sir/Ma'am, I can understand why you're upset, but I'm following the old man's guidance. If you feel it wrong, I'd suggest you bring it up to him directly. " They would speak something under their breath, and follow through on my directives.
The trick is to be polite and apologetic, but not a pushover.

Response by CW3 Richard Root made Apr 23 at 2015 7:35 PM

CW3 Richard Root — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:35:15 -0400

It really comes down to this. You are simply enforcing/following the orders/instructions given to you by the 1SG.

No different than any other "order" to be followed in the Army when you think about it.

Response by 1SG Michael Bonnett made Apr 24 at 2015 9:49 AM

1SG Michael Bonnett — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:49:34 -0400

The mark of a good command climate can be seen by how someone who tries to pull rank is handled by the Chain.

We had a new XO who had previously worked at Division and had managed to make his way into our Infantry Battalion to take the XO slot just before a field exercise. I think there were been plans on him taking over the Battalion when the Commander rotated out is a few months.

When we returned to garrison he dropped his weapon off on the armor's desk and walked away past everyone in line.

One of my Section leaders mentioned it a few minutes later. I was the Scout Platoon Sergeant at the time.

When I turned my weapon in I asked to see the .45 and it was not a pleasant sight. It was obvious the weapon had not been taken care of the entire exercise. I told the Armorer to just set it aside and not to clean it and that someone would be along for it.

I walked over to Operations and talked with the S3 and his NCO and inquired as to how the new XO was working out. By this time the HHC 1SG had gotten word since it had been a big line, and joined us in the conversation just as we were giving his office a buzz on the landline (yes we actually used those instead of phones, it was good training and more secure).

The 1SG wonders away and a few minutes later the SGM goes by the HHC arms room and then drops in on the Battalion Commander with the 45 in hand. He leaves the office without it. Everything goes quiet.

A runner is sent for the XO who surprising enough has gone to take a shower... Yes an XO in an Infantry Battalion who is taking a shower right after returning from a deployment... who knew an XO had any time to himself....

The XO shows up all squeaky clean and it makes quite a contrast. A cleaning kit is sent for. At this point nobody knows how that conversation went in that office but 20 minutes later the XO goes to the Arms Room and turns in a clean weapon. He then makes it a point to apologize to the Armorer because he did not understand the procedures.

Maybe he really didn't and they do it differently in other units but the XO actually works out in the end.

No paperwork, no permanent ratings or evaluations, just a point that everyone in the unit has to respect everyone else in the unit and your weapon is your responsibility, no one else's and that your needs always come last to your men's and the mission.

Response by SPC Makissa Lewis made Apr 24 at 2015 4:11 PM

SPC Makissa Lewis — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 16:11:04 -0400

I remember those days. I would get it writing just for clarification. Just in case there is someone who won't comply and wants to take it higher. This also should help cover you and your rank. Also, the person who gave you the directive may "forget" when someone with more rank than them comes along.

Response by 1SG Kenneth Talkington Sr made May 14 at 2015 6:38 PM

1SG Kenneth Talkington Sr — Thu, 14 May 2015 18:38:45 -0400

I faced this type situation numerous time throughout my career. I had the following two things pounded into my head:
1. Mission accomplishment first.
2. Follow your last lawful order.
If you First Sergeant directed you to not accept any dirty weapons then follow that order. He gave you permission to contact him if you had trouble with anyone of a higher rank than you. So there should not be a problem with insuring that the weapons you are responsible for are properly cleaned.

Response by SGT David T. made May 15 at 2015 10:24 AM

SGT David T. — Fri, 15 May 2015 10:24:23 -0400

I was an Arms Room NCOIC once upon a time and have been in this same position. As the Armorer you work directly for the commander because it is their Arms Room. I have had the company XO start cussing me up and down for this very thing. My response was I understand how you feel sir, but this is what the commander ordered me to do so we can go talk to him if you disagree with it. Having the backing of the commander and the 1SG is key to being in the arms room. If they have your back, then no one can override that.

Response by SSG Nick Tramontano made May 15 at 2015 10:24 AM

SSG Nick Tramontano — Fri, 15 May 2015 10:24:46 -0400

I've done the same thing. I was not the armorer but was NCOIC of the arms room and weapons cleaning for the day. I'd inspect every weapon and if it wasn't properly cleaned I'd point out the deficiency and hand back the weapon..

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 10:33 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 May 2015 10:33:37 -0400

I am a Master at Arms and I come across that quite frequently.
I believe the best way to deal with it is to know you're right and they're wrong, because if you're guessing it will end bad, and to ALWAYS be respectful. If they decide to get disrespectful and it becomes too uncomfortable for you, notify your chain of command. If you're right, they will back you.

Response by SGT Nathan Huff made May 15 at 2015 10:38 AM

SGT Nathan Huff — Fri, 15 May 2015 10:38:00 -0400

Follow the SOP and Regulations, always be respectful to those who out rank you, but stand your ground. (respectfully).

I ran a mail room and if anything goes wrong it is federal jail time. Ive had to chase company commanders out of my mail room and senior NCO's because they were not authorized to have access to the location. Then I would have to change the locks. Object was I was still respectful but know my job backwards and forward. That means knowing the regulations and SOP. Some times when they are breaking the rules and trying to run rank shod over you...call some one in your chain of command who out ranks them to assist.

Response by SFC Douglas Duckett made May 15 at 2015 10:55 AM

SFC Douglas Duckett — Fri, 15 May 2015 10:55:12 -0400

It is about your position, not your rank. There is no "acting", you either are or you are not (team leader, squad leader, PSG, etc).

When I was the senior NCO in the company because we were between 1SGs, I WAS the 1SG. Other SFCs had to deal with that.

I never referred to myself as the "Acting". I took charge and did the duty as required.

Response by PFC Kyle Klofstad made May 16 at 2015 3:13 AM

PFC Kyle Klofstad — Sat, 16 May 2015 03:13:32 -0400

In a similar situation, although I have never had to take orders from a senior ranking individual, I often had to make "respectful requests" of the company 1SG's within my battalion for paperwork needed for the battalion mail room. Unless I'm mistaken, and that happens rather frequently at times, when it comes to the mail room, if there is a major slip up or things aren't completely to federal standards any one up to and including the first general officer in your chain of command can be removed for cause with a possibility of federal jail time depending on the severity of the mistake made. Makes a Private like me sweat a little when senior NCO's and commanders don't submit mail documents to the mail because they feel it isn't as important as their company level training and preparations.

Response by SSG Stacy Carter made May 16 at 2015 10:28 PM

SSG Stacy Carter — Sat, 16 May 2015 22:28:47 -0400

In my opinion there is no dilemma. You received a directive from your First Sergeant no to receive any dirty weapons no matter who that weapon was from. When I was an Armorer many years ago as a PVT I received much the same directive. If the personnel trying to turn in weapons has a problem then send them to talk to the First Sergeant, or call him and have him come down and rectify the situation... One thing that always worked for me was to ask the Platoon Sergeants to have a senior Squad Leader inspect the weapons before it got to me.. Stick to your directive, but make sure you are respectful and use tact or you may be the one under fire from the First Sergeant and Commander.

Response by SPC Tonya Clardy made May 18 at 2015 8:00 PM

SPC Tonya Clardy — Mon, 18 May 2015 20:00:37 -0400

I was an armorer, and I took my arms room from failing inspections to passing with high points. I made sure I had records or everything when it came to cleaning. I understood some had appt. they had to keep but I made sure I wrote their names on the list I keep and told them they had to come up, because I turned in the list to my 1sgt at the end of the day to let them know who left for appt. and did not come back and he took it from there. I also had some who said I was to hard on the inspection and I just looked at them and with a smile gave them back their weapons and said try again.

My CDR would come in the arms room when we cleaned all weapons even unassigned weapons and sit and clean with me (which earned my respect) on when did PMCS all ranks had to do their own and not their Pvt's and I keep records of every thing. that is the key.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2015 4:20 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 16:20:43 -0400

I'm an e4 AGR Supply SGT, had to turn E5s to 03s (CA companies are pretty top heavy) away from the arms room and supply cages all time since most of them didn't like taking guiedence from an e4. Fix that problem by writing policy letters and advising the my CDR to write a LOI to make it clear that if the CA Team Leaders/SGTs weren't willing to take directives from me while in the supply AO, they could take their beef to him.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2015 8:05 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 20:05:54 -0400

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member This is what we call Positional Authority in the Navy. Junior guys from MAs (Master at Arms) standing gate watches to customer service duties (Yeomen (YNs), Legalmen (LNs), PSs (Personnel Specialists), etc.) assisting that senior member in whatever issue they are having deal with these problems. Truthfully, probably every rate in the Navy has an eqivilant of watch/duty or customer service that E4 and below may have to deal with someone "pulling rank" on them while just trying to do their job. The best way to handle it is to be respectful, quote policy or governing directives if you have them (don't shoot from the hip...it will only make it worse....I know...), and if need be call back-up (supervisor, etc.). I always tell my junior guys, "I expect you to always be respectful but if you are getting frustrated let the next person in your CoC know. That's why they get paid the big bucks."

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 26 at 2015 10:02 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 22:02:12 -0400

There are plenty of times you must follow orders like that. All you can do is explain what you were ordered to those you interact with.

Response by Cpl Tou Lee Yang made Jul 26 at 2015 10:07 PM

Cpl Tou Lee Yang — Sun, 26 Jul 2015 22:07:55 -0400

This is one of the reason why I hated to shoot my weapon.On one occasion, I spent 3 hours cleaning my weapon because it was not up to the standard of a Lcpl even though I clean the hell out of that weapon. I ask to speak to his NCO and good thing his Corporal was a good friend of mine who was working that day, he accepted my weapon. After that, I never shot any blank round when we're in the field, instead I passed them to my Marines.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2015 9:49 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 09:49:20 -0400

Unless they sign the hand receipt, take nothing from them and use the 1SG for back-up if you need to. When I was a company supply SGT, I always had an open line of communication between the Commander and myself, if I needed anything and the 1SG backed up what ever I needed.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2017 12:56 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:56:50 -0500

Yes, and I take it to heart. Especially when a superior explicitly tells me I have authority or I can cite regulations for something. "If you have a problem with it see X" then go about my business.
Knowing a bit about rules and regulations pertaining to your job goes so far.
I remember once I challenged an oak leaf 0-4 during an inspection. He tried to tell me his opinion on changing batteries for battle lanterns, that he believed there needed to be a tagout. I proceeded to inform him how in no place in any of my major governing technical documents pertaining to this job or general electrical work is that a requirement. Also that it is impractical and uneccessary. Besides a tagout turns on all the battle lanterns in the hallway, it would take a handful of troops to change the batteries. When people who don't know your job try to tell you how they think it should be done...

Response by PFC Robert Rice made Nov 7 at 2017 1:37 AM

PFC Robert Rice — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 01:37:11 -0500

When in doubt go by the last order given. You cover your own six by doing so.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made May 26 at 2018 12:25 PM

SFC Francisco Rosario — Sat, 26 May 2018 12:25:58 -0400

There comes a time in ones career where we will find ourselves in a position of power regardless of the rank we hold. That being said, i was the NCOIC at the Rock Island Health Clinic, and yes i had more than one encounter like this one. A few times i would have an officer in the ranks of CPT thru LTC wanting me to do as they wanted. I just held my ground and informed them that those were the clinic policies, if they had any questions they would have to speak to my CDR, who just happened to be the commander of the Army Hospital my clinic was under. They would more often than not decide otherwise and give up on their demands.

This can only work if your chain of command has your back and is willing to stand with you. Now "To who much is given, much is required" meaning you must ensure that you act within reason and with the utmost respect to those who are trying to puch back.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made May 26 at 2018 12:47 PM

LtCol George Carlson — Sat, 26 May 2018 12:47:49 -0400

My absolute favorite position authority story is fairly lengthy. CMC was visiting Camp Pendleton and the last stop of the day was ITS. The CO of ITS wanted to "show off" what his Marines had done with self-help materials to fix up their armory. As is not uncommon CMC was running late and by the time he arrived, the armory had been shut down and the guards posted -- one inside the building and one in the compound outside -- both ITS students fresh out of boot camp. As the CO and CMC approached, the PFC barked:
Halt, who goes there?
CO: Col ____, the Commanding Officer
PFC: Commanding Officer, advance to be recognized. Sir, may I see your ID card?
CO hands over ID card while PFC checks name against access list.
PFC: I'm sorry sir, you're not on the access list.
CO: Dammit, Marine, I signed that access list!
PFC: (by this time scared out of his wits) Yes, sir, but it says it can only be changed in writing signed by you, sir.
CO: Marine! Do you know who this is with me?!!!!
PFC: Yes, sit. He's the Commandant of the Marine Corps. … But he's not on the access list either, sir.
CMC: Colonel, take it easy. This Marine is doing his job as he was instructed to do it.
By that time one of the staff in the gaggle who was on the access list produced his ID card and the sentry opened the gate. CMC (Gen Gray) promoted the PFC to LCpl (meritoriously) on the spot and sent one of the gaggle to borrow LCpl's chevrons until the new LCpl could get his own at the MCX in the morning.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2018 3:54 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 May 2018 15:54:11 -0400

I like this question, as an Intel guy.

95% of the time when it comes to cyber missions, the lower rank people know more about the right way to get something done than the higher ranked people. Now there’s a lot of debate on why this could be, but generally it boils down to the lower ranks (E3/E4s) enjoy doing cyber/computer related stuff, so they’re more likely to practice off-duty.

I was made a mission team lead (an E6 position) as an E4, meaning I was also in charge of E5s and E6s to train and quality check their analysis. Of course there is always people who believe that rank trumps everything, and for the first month I accepted that. But after the first month or so, I started to push back, only because we all had to show our leadership whether or not we knew how to do our jobs. Turns out the people who don’t practice with computers every day weren’t very good and those who did were. So some people got a stern chatting with and I was told, by my E8, to stop talking sh-t from people when I know I’m right. Pretty good advice I’d say.

Response by SGT Charles Ludwigsen made May 26 at 2018 4:09 PM

SGT Charles Ludwigsen — Sat, 26 May 2018 16:09:09 -0400

I had the responsibility of issuing new and collecting expired CEOI books. Oh yes. Had to deal with it on both ends. “Yes sir, I understand you misplaced it. Can you sign this ‘lost or stolen’ report?” Handle it politely, professionally, and properly.

Response by SGM Jeffrey Hall made May 26 at 2018 4:15 PM

SGM Jeffrey Hall — Sat, 26 May 2018 16:15:37 -0400

I once was doing an inspection of an Army unit and the commander and 1SG were both disregarding regulations on a very specific topic. I wrote up my results and provided it to my leadership as well as the commander and 1SG. The next morning, we had a staff meeting, during which time, the commander called my boss (a major) to tell him that he disagreed with my findings. His words were "SFC Hall has to remember he's just an NCO and I'm a commander (he was a 1LT)." My boss had answered the phone on speaker. Before I could stop myself I said, "No, the lieutenant needs to remember he's a commander and I'm an inspector....and he failed. The lieutenant can try to explain the nuances of this to the Commanding General". Nothing bad ever came of that little back and forth.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made May 26 at 2018 4:31 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Sat, 26 May 2018 16:31:41 -0400

Sergeant of the Guard.
My unit had a soldier pulled off of his post where he was under arms to secure a weapons CONEX.
He was re-positioned by an officer of field grade rank not in the guard's Chain of Command.
The accused refused consent to be tried by a Summary Court-Martial.
He received a Special Court-Martial and was found Guilty, received a General Discharge For the Good of the Service.
The officer involved received General Court-Martial and though not found Guilty, he was released from his service commitment.
I have no idea what happened to the CONEX.

Response by SPC Charlie Robinson made May 26 at 2018 7:06 PM

SPC Charlie Robinson — Sat, 26 May 2018 19:06:00 -0400

I'm OK with that.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 1:31 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 May 2018 01:31:06 -0400

There are rules and regulations. The best way to defend yourself against those who want to use rank over rules is to know the rules and regulations so that they have to fight the regulation and not your rank. good luck.

Response by SGT Luis Quinones made May 27 at 2018 6:50 AM

SGT Luis Quinones — Sun, 27 May 2018 06:50:37 -0400

I usu to be unit armor stationed in Korea back in the mid 80s.assigned to brigade HQ and we had a lot of big ranks there including a general, but mustly senior ncos and they like to puul rank but my 1SG was right nex door and took care of businness for me.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 10:54 AM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 May 2018 10:54:56 -0400

I’ve had this challenge many times. This is leadership and your 1SG is testing your fortitude. If someone of a higher rank challenges you, tell them to take it up with the 1SG; for now you're following the 1SG's orders and he wants you to hold the line on this issue.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 27 at 2018 5:53 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 27 May 2018 17:53:17 -0400

Did it all the time as a unit armorer- to include sending Officers back to clean their weapons

Response by SPC Brian Blaney made May 31 at 2018 12:32 PM

SPC Brian Blaney — Thu, 31 May 2018 12:32:08 -0400

I was an E-4 when I arrived at Ft. Bragg back in 1990. I was assigned to one of the Companies of the 5/8 FAR, which one I don't remember anymore. I was made the training NCO, as I knew how to type. Ok, no big deal and was rather awesome, IMO. I started my paperwork at Battalion and low and hold they scarf me up as the training clerk job was open and I knew how to type, so I was assigned to the HHB. Again all good, as I worked in an office where everyone outranked me, but I was good at what I did and it never bothered me. Fast forward a few months and I checked to see if every battery did their road march, and one missed it, so I put it on their schedule and the S-3 signed off on it. No big deal, or so you would think.

The training schedules get sent down to the batteries and we get a phone call at the S-3 looking for the Major, who was out at a range I believe. So the Captain comes into the S-3 and I am the only one there. He puts me at attention and proceeds to dress me down, tells me to never change his schedule and such. I take it and not a word is said by me, as it would of been BAD if I said anything.

Fast forward a few hours later and the Major comes in and asks me how my day was going, my answer was short and sweet "Fine sir". He looks at me and asks me again how my day was, my answer the same. He knew something was wrong and calls me into his office and says to close the door and talks to me, wanting to find out what was wrong and if he could help, so I told him what happened. Before I left his office he was on the phone with that Captain's company and told him to report to him in 5 minutes, and he better not be late.

To make a long story short, the Major chewed out the Captain, told him to NEVER dress down any of his people for something with his signature on it and to enjoy his road march. The Captain never spoke to me again and the 1SG from that battery thought it was the funniest thing in the world, though never told me directly.

My job was important, I did it well.

Now mind you this is almost 30 years ago, so my memory may be a bit foggy, so please if I screwed some protocol or what not in what I did, please forgive, LOL

Response by SFC Dennis A. made May 31 at 2018 2:38 PM

SFC Dennis A. — Thu, 31 May 2018 14:38:22 -0400

Yes, it's not always the easiest situation but when business is conducted with a little tact and respect it can be done very successfully.

Response by SPC Kirk Williams made May 31 at 2018 7:16 PM

SPC Kirk Williams — Thu, 31 May 2018 19:16:24 -0400

At one point I was the only enlisted person in my S-2 office. that meant going to Seargents meetings, and anything else that had to be done. So I handled it like the work required. If it required me to act as if I had more weight on my collar then I did it respectfully. But I did it. If someone had something to say about it, I would get a meeting with the next person above me, my Captain. If he needed more, he would go higher, or send me to get someone higher. After a while, I almost had a breakdown because I was young and not trained for it. But i muddled through until I got some relief. Most of it was because there was no one to delegate to. If something had to be done, I had to do it. So I had to make a decision to do it, and then do it. At least I had no extra duty for the entire time. If CQ came up, Sorry Top, the S-2 has no one available, but the s-3 has plenty of boots hanging around.

Response by SGT Liz Carolan made Dec 16 at 2018 5:57 AM

SGT Liz Carolan — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 05:57:02 -0500

As an army nurse I had to give teaching and instruction to seniors many times. I did so with dignity and class. But the "do you know who I am" types who think their rank gives them a step up in acuity, I'm sorry, you will have to wait your turn

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 9 at 2019 7:37 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 19:37:01 -0500

Just out of curiosity have you had soldiers try to turn in dirty weapons?

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 9 at 2019 8:05 PM

Maj John Bell — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 20:05:43 -0500

I was in a remote command where the two officers senior to me were less than two months in the unit. My CO issued an order that I knew to be contrary to his CO's direction. I found myself staring down the two senior officers and telling them "No!" The order was sent out, but not over my by direction signature as was the custom.

I found myself getting my ass chewed on the speaker phone for letting my "green" CO do something so "*%(*%^&% stupid." Fortunately, the SNCO chain took care of getting the truth out. A few days later I found myself getting an apology over the speaker phone. Then I was excused while my boss and his boss had a very long conversation. My boss spent the next 15 months making me pay.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2019 8:06 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Jan 2019 08:06:06 -0500

If you are the man in charge of that station. We had a specialist in charge of the entrance to our tank farm. The sign said no rings, lighters etc allowed. A 1 star came to look at the set up and the SPC would not allow him on site until he emptied his pockets. The General seemed a bit miffed but complied. Our NCOIC took the kid out to lunch that night.

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made Jan 11 at 2019 9:40 AM

SGT(P) Kenneth Jones — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:40:46 -0500

Several different times, and they try to get me for disrespect or not following orders. I told them go ahead because as an NCO or officer they are not to use their rank but it happens. Do what your 1sgt says take names and direct them to their office.

Response by SFC Howard Holmes made Jun 4 at 2020 1:03 PM

SFC Howard Holmes — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 13:03:29 -0400

MP's have that issue all of the time, if they are garrison MPs. Biggest issues are driving violations, DUIs, Speeding, etc., Talk about ball busters, especially when you're an E-2 or 3. Talk about the intimidation factors.

Response by SSG James Mielke made Sep 6 at 2020 2:50 AM

SSG James Mielke — Sun, 06 Sep 2020 02:50:53 -0400

LOL
Turned back many dirty rifle as an assistant armorer in Germany.
'Sorry L-T, your weapon is still filthy. I could make it inspection ready for say...$75.'
Poor Butter Bars made even poorer by an <ahem> entrepreneurial E4/E5. LOL

Response by SGT Bradley Bliss made Sep 15 at 2020 9:41 PM

SGT Bradley Bliss — Tue, 15 Sep 2020 21:41:21 -0400

My first duty station I(PFC at the time) was placed in the S2 shop as an assistant. Shortly after the E7 retired, the E5 was reassigned to a different battalion, leaving just the 1Lt and myself. She went on maternity leave, so at 6 months into my first duty station I was left alone to run the 2 shop for almost a month, with tremendous support from everyone in the S3 office next door. My first staff call giving the weekly update to the LTC, I had to call out one of the Batteries for failing their arms room security inspection, as well as one of his new butter bars had lost their clearance due to a drinking issue. Afterwards in the hallway that battery CMD starts to tear into me while I was pushing for embarrassing him with a shotgun blast. At this point every officer and NCO pour out of the 3 shop, the battery CMD is marched into the COs office, and I was taken to lunch by NCOs of the 3 shop. Unknown to me at the time when the S2 went on leave the CSM had made it known that no one was to try and rank bully me to get their way from the 2 shop. That BTRY CMD was soon sent to a different duty station. It wasn't until I made NCO that I fully understood and appreciated what happened that day, had it not been for the great leaders around me that one officer could have ended my military career long before I was injured.

Response by CW3 Tamara Peruzzo made Jun 18 at 2022 11:59 PM

CW3 Tamara Peruzzo — Sat, 18 Jun 2022 23:59:19 -0400

MPs run into this issue...ALL...THE...TIME. You just have to stand your ground. Someone who out ranks the problem child may occasionally have to back you up. I have more than a few stories for that. If anyone wants to hear them I'll share, otherwise I won't waste anyone's time.

Response by CPT Earl George made Sep 4 at 2022 11:05 PM

CPT Earl George — Sun, 04 Sep 2022 23:05:02 -0400

As a 1LT, I was the assistant Brigade S=1. One of my primary jobs was to take the daily MP desk log and if the Brigade CO had made any notations about actions taken on anything that happened that was in the log, I was to write a note to that Battalion Commander asking action Taken with a copy of the incident and a 7 day suspense. My boss, came to me one afternoon and said the old man wanted an immediate answer on a particular case that an answer was a week overdue. He told me to go straight to the Battalion Commander's officer to get the answer. The office was two floor up in the same building. I knocked on the door, entered and properly reported. When I told the LTC what I wanted, He told me get the F *** out of his office. I saluted and left. I got back to my boss and told him what happened. He said he would take care of things. The next day, promptly at 0700 hrs, that particular Battalion Commander was standing in front of my desk asking me if his unit had any responses outstanding. This continued every morning for a week.(He was so polite)

Response by SGT John Prolo made Sep 4 at 2022 11:42 PM

SGT John Prolo — Sun, 04 Sep 2022 23:42:33 -0400

Absolutely...I was in charge of our site as an E-5 in Hohenfels Germany. We fixed comsec equipment and radios. When one of the line units sent us a damaged radio we refused to accept it for repair until we got a statement from their commander as to how the damage happened. I answered to a CW3 and only him. But a 2LT. tried to use his rank and told me I would accept the broken equipment. I respectfully said, no sir no can do. He even had his platoon sergeant try and pressure me. Needless to say, they tried hard to get me for insubordination but they couldn't get it to stick. Lol

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Sep 4 at 2022 11:59 PM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Sun, 04 Sep 2022 23:59:57 -0400

Been there done this as a First Sergeant.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Oct 15 at 2022 12:40 PM

MAJ Steve Daugherty — Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:40:48 -0400

No, but I assumed responsibility above my rank. We were in the field over a holiday weekend and it was hot and dry. I inquired why there wasn’t more ice for the troops to encourage hydration and was told there is only so much rationed per soldier per day and could only be increase if the Division Surgeon authorized, since it was a holiday and I was the Ranking Physician on duty, I signed a memorandum authorizing increase ice rations and we kept heat injuries to a minimum . Past experience as a NCO helped me use the system creatively. I always tried to approach my duties making the health and welfare of those I was responsible for the highest priority.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Oct 15 at 2022 4:19 PM

SSG Bill McCoy — Sat, 15 Oct 2022 16:19:21 -0400

Not as an arms room issue, but when I was still a medic before getting into the MP's, I was driving the Ft. Myer shuttle to Walter Reed and back. At Reed, I had a full load and a LTC tried to get in the front seat where an old, retired fellow was sitting. I explained to him that I could not drive with someone right next to me and asked if he minded doubling up in one of the back seats - a 6-door Checker station wagon. He graciously obliged.
Good thing. The retiree passed out and leaned over the seat with his head in my lap. I pulled into a side street off Military Road in D.C. ... ordered EVERYONE out of the vehicle. Sas that the LTC was the ONLY person in uniform. I promptly pointed ot him and said, "Sir! Get in the seat behind me!" Then told him the guy was breathing and had a pulse but was unconscious. Told him to just hold the guy steady. Whipped around and sped back to Watler Reed, telling the passngers on the sidewalk that I'd be back.
Stopped at red lights ... but blew horn and when traffic cleared, busted through and ran the back gate at Reed. At the Emergency Room, I told the LTC to go get a gurney and he did. I pulled the guy out and rolled him into the ER.
Back at the Checker, the LTC pulled out a pocket notebook and began asking my particulars ... name, TIS, goals ets. Told him I was only in for 5 months and had paperwork to get into the MP's submitted. I honestly thought he was going to write me up for insubordination or whatever! Picked up the passngers and as we entered the back gate to Ft. Myer, he asked if I'd drop him off at the O Club. "YES SIR!" LOL There, under the portico, he leaned in and said, "I don't know when or how, but you are going to hear about this." Oh, damn! I thought!
A week later, I was given orders to the 236th MP Det at Reed for 90 days OJT. The SFC Personnel Sgt was dumbfounded. "I've never heard of a Medic with a reenlistment bonus 4 getting out to go to the MP's with a reenlistment bonus of 1! WHO DO YOU KNOW?" I told him no one ... he said, "You know SOMEONE! Someone at the Forrestal Bldg downtown pulled strings for you!" I asked what the Forrestal Bldg was and he said, "The horsepower there puts the Pentagon to shame!"
I don't know if he was right about all that, but my suspicion was that the LTC put in a good word for me! SHEESH!

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Oct 15 at 2022 9:10 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sat, 15 Oct 2022 21:10:55 -0400

I had the wonderfully fun time when I kicked my own Commander out of my SCIF. He was looking for missing property. I was the BDE S2 NCoIC, and also "owned" the SCIF. I was THE gatekeeper for access.

We had some secret squirrel guys who even I didn't know what they were doing, but they were properly vetted, cleared, and Corps S2 said to let them use my facility, so I did. Commander starts trying to go through their cubicles and I told him to cease and desist; his missing property was not there, and he did NOT have the authority OR the need-to-know. He tried to get snippy with me and tell me he had a Top Secret clearance (which was true) and he would look wherever he damn well pleased. I informed him that he had the clearance, but he was neither read-on, nor did he have the need to know, so he would not look in those areas. If he really needed to, I would arrange a time when the secret squirrels could be there, and could sanitize before he checked.

He had been warned twice. He tried to go back at it, and I had him ESCORTED out of my SCIF. And then put a DEROG on his security clearance file. Luckily for me, he was an outgoing Commander, so I only had to deal with him for another few weeks. But me and my shop were definitely on the shit-list until he left.

I have also, when acting as BDE SCIF guard down range, barred the BDE Commander from entry because he didn't have his SCIF badge. Yes, I knew who he was. But it was HIS policy. He thanked me for following the rules, went back to the TOC and grabbed his badge, and was let in with nothing further said.

Ultimately, the rules is the rules. You may take shit for following them, but no one can truly fault you.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Oct 16 at 2022 11:30 AM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:30:19 -0400

There is an obvious example, here. That is of the Unit Commander. This person has absolute authority over the Unit. Anybody of any rank has to recognize this authority, even if they are of a higher rank. Naturally, there are provisions that allow somebody of a higher rank to assume command and relieve the sitting commander, but I believe those are rare, and there are considerable limitations.

Short story, a Company Commander (CC), who is a Captain, would have authority over his Company even if a "Joe Bag-o-doughnuts" General Officer (GO, not in the Captain's Chain) thinks otherwise.

Now, just how the CC acts in the presence of the GO might be another question.

Response by 1SG Mark Rodgers made Oct 16 at 2022 12:32 PM

1SG Mark Rodgers — Sun, 16 Oct 2022 12:32:26 -0400

I went to a 2 week course, for the life of me can't remember what, but there were E-7s, 8s and 9s. None of the 9s would take charge of anything. So I stepped up... Treated the 9s like privates! These were staff 9s, not command type, so they were used to shirking duties anytime they could. Irritated the hell out of me, but you get what you earn if you're ready to step up! Step up or shut up.