Eight Remaining Women in Ranger School Recycle First Phase... your thoughts?

2015-05-08T12:30:00-04:00

This started as question, but since I posted it, the official Army News Release came out.

Good Luck to all the Soldiers who were recycled. I am lucky (yes lucky) I never got hurt, or recycled. Those recycled looked like it was much harder than those of us lucky enough to make it in one fell swoop.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/05/08/women-ranger-school-recycle/26984151/

Response by SGT Dylan Epp made May 8 at 2015 12:44 PM

2015-05-08T12:44:14-04:00

Nineteen women started with Class 6-15, which reported on 19 April and started on 20 April. Of these, only 8 made it out of RAP week.

All 8 failed the Darby phase, and all 8 will be recycled. Of these, 6 were boarded and recycled at battalion level. The last two were boarded and recycled at brigade level.

Some were recycled for peer reports, some were for spot reports, some were for patrols, some for more than one reason. Each had at least two patrols.

The 8 (and the very substantial number of males who also failed Darby) will go to the Gulag tomorrow and retrain until next Friday, when they will join Class 7-15 after it completes RAP/ foot march. Class 7-15 reports on 10 May and starts on 11 May. Scheduled graduation is 10 July.

All understood why they failed and are being recycled. What are your questions?

For a look at previous success rates, look at the link.

http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/rtb/

Straight from the Ranger assoiation Facebook page.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 12:49 PM

2015-05-08T12:49:08-04:00

Maintaining 50% attrition from the beginning. High standards cannot be wavered nor circumvented. Carry on Candidates.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 1:50 PM

2015-05-08T13:50:56-04:00

I was almost certain that at least one of them would make it through to mountains. But I'm glad to hear they are being allowed to recycle and none wanted to quite.

Response by CPT David Jones made May 8 at 2015 2:10 PM

2015-05-08T14:10:47-04:00

Now updated on Army Times. All eight women offered recycle.... along with 101 male students. I heard tell that no woman passed a patrol at Darby, and all had multiple chances.

Edit - I never recycled either, went straight through with my Class 5-91 (4 Phase, including DPG). I know that the later-phase recycles we received in our squad/platoon were very healthy and well-fed, in contrast to the rest of our class they were joining...

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/05/08/women-ranger-school-recycle/26984151/

Eight women, 101 men will retake Ranger School phase

All eight female Ranger School students are being recycled and will not be moving forward this weekend to the mountain phase of the course.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made May 8 at 2015 3:49 PM

2015-05-08T15:49:02-04:00

Not surprised... Although it is telling that every female was recycled.

Prepare for the arrows to start coming. Blame will be levied on the peer reports and spot reports, which will be purported to be unfair and alleged to be targeting females in an attempt to make them fail.

I was lucky in that I never was recycled. Funny story... Due to my first name being "Jean" (French for "John" -- my mom is French and spelled my name the French way), many thought I was the first female graduate of Ranger School. Got some interesting inquiries shortly after graduation.

I wish these female soldiers all the best and, if they can make it through the course and meet all the requirements, with no degradation, I'll be happy to call them "Ranger".

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made May 8 at 2015 5:42 PM

2015-05-08T17:42:33-04:00

Hell, I wish I was in just half that good of shape anymore. I'd be ecstatic to be able to keep up with the worst woman in Ranger school. Time and surgeries have not been kind to this old Devil Dog.

Response by MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM made May 8 at 2015 11:09 PM

2015-05-08T23:09:59-04:00

My thoughts: why does it have to be about the females? 8 of 20? Seems pretty close to the average attrition rate doesn't it? How many males started and remain? Why not break it down by race and religion too?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 11:43 PM

2015-05-08T23:43:54-04:00

There might be a silver lining. I was a Darby insert and it helped immensely when I could use the lessons learned to help my new SQD and PLT on their first time through. It also helps that they don't have to redo RAP week and can concentrate on their small unit tactics/patrols. Good luck and hope to see those tabbed women in the force!

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 9 at 2015 5:53 AM

2015-05-09T05:53:58-04:00

Hooah!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 8:09 AM

2015-05-09T08:09:13-04:00

Eight is too small a sample size to apply the normal statistics. It is not some statistical anomaly that 72 were recycled (either Darby inserts or Day 1s) out of 109 total No-gos. It is possible that this might not be the outrageous affirmative action everyone is looking for. Based on all the information publicly available now, RTB is maintaining the normal standards.

Also, it is really strange that some consider themselves to be unbiased against these candidates, yet get angry when that standard gets them recycled instead of just dropped. So, the only possible proof that standards are being maintained is if all women fail? Nonsense.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made May 9 at 2015 9:44 AM

2015-05-09T09:44:40-04:00

CSM Private RallyPoint Member, I hope they succeed next time out!

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 9:48 AM

2015-05-09T09:48:15-04:00

They are down, I hope they come back.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 10:00 AM

2015-05-09T10:00:30-04:00

We will see a woman graduate from Ranger School, even if she has to take steroids to gain the strength.

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 9 at 2015 12:49 PM

2015-05-09T12:49:48-04:00

I am sure all are tracking 37% of all Ranger Students are recycled. That being said it not of question of if they make it it's when. Good luck to all in your pursuit of a goal. Mental toughness is key. The bottom line is you can't learn if you don't try.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made May 9 at 2015 1:58 PM

2015-05-09T13:58:19-04:00

Frankly, I am disappointed that there is such a focus on the women being recycled ... after all, so are 101 of their male counterparts.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 2:01 PM

2015-05-09T14:01:35-04:00

8 females constitute 100% of the women who attended, 101 males isn't the entirety of that population pool. Out of curiosity, how is one not supposed to focus on the variable in an experiment? The males are a constant, this trial is all about how females do so the focus on their performance is justified.

Response by SGT Joe Sabedra made May 9 at 2015 5:55 PM

2015-05-09T17:55:54-04:00

My only question is can men be recycled.
One standard.

Response by SSG Selwyn Bodley made May 9 at 2015 6:28 PM

2015-05-09T18:28:37-04:00

Yes and no. I mean no disrespect to any woman, but I do beleive and based on the apft standards, so does the army, that men and women are physically different and typically men are stronger. For that reason, I believed that if they kept the standards the same, that women would struggle.
Having said that, I am surprised to a degree because I thought that there would be pressure on the cadre to make sure some women made it through or it might look as though the RI's were just tab protectors. Of course, some might say that that is exactly why the women didn't pass. Again, I have a ton of respect for ladies, soldiers or not, I don't see women as inferior, just different and I don't think "different" should be interpreted negatively.

Response by PV2 Abbott Shaull made May 9 at 2015 6:30 PM

2015-05-09T18:30:23-04:00

So they recycled. My Platoon Sgt back in the day did so a couple times, he was from line company of the 82nd... Just to prove that even those who should know what to expect, sometimes find themselves on the wrong side of the pass/fail system.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 6:55 PM

2015-05-09T18:55:42-04:00

Are they just going to keep recycling them until they get it? Here is the problem with them being there in the first place: You're trying to teach females to do a job in 2 months that males have been doing since the army was in its infancy. The infantry clearly wasn't broken before they tried to start giving women a shot at being apart of it. Why are we trying to fix it? Their argument is about the difficulty of getting promoted without the coveted tab because it was exclusively male until now. So open up an opportunity that's worth just as much for females that doesn't include Ranger School. This isn't going to work. No one will believe the standards weren't lowered or someone was forced to push them through. I'm aware that males are failing. Guys get hurt, or they just can't do it anymore. But this is nothing new. Sometimes they get recycled just because. And that's not what we're here to talk about.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 9 at 2015 7:11 PM

2015-05-09T19:11:58-04:00

Is just deppending on the individual i guess, if they put mind and soul to it and keep trying. They'll make it.

Response by CPT Endre Barath made May 10 at 2015 12:15 AM

2015-05-10T00:15:55-04:00

From what I heard today was, that none of the women passed the first phase. I have no issues with them getting recycled and wish them all the best. It is hard enough to get through all phases the first time (voice of experience), there were a few in my class who got through being recycled twice...I have had high respect for their perseverance not sure if I would have been able to do it... 58 days were enough for me.... on a side note glad the standards were not lowered and hope that this will remain for future classes. Best wishes to all the candidates RLTW!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 12:54 AM

2015-05-10T00:54:19-04:00

Can someone explain to me how all eight females failed Darby phase where many of them are extremely accomplished officers (at least one is a major)? I know two of them very well, and their intellectual acumen is truly impressive. How is it possible that they can complete the physical events of RAP week successfully, but they lack the leadership/intellect to pass squad-sized patrols? The failure rate is statistically disproportionate. Given everything I have seen regarding how females are treated and regarded in comparison to males, this Ranger School experiment is a farce. But, I hope I am wrong.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 7:42 AM

2015-05-10T07:42:48-04:00

I'm actually surprised it was a 100% recycle rate. I figured 1-2 of the 8 would get to mountain phase. However, knowing the level of documentation for failing to meet standards and recycling a phase in Ranger School requires, I have no doubts the results are accurate. Still more to see, as the physical toll of repeating the phase weighs on the students.

Response by SGT Felicia King made May 10 at 2015 4:18 PM

2015-05-10T16:18:35-04:00

Nope, doesn't surprise me at all. I'm not saying females are not strong. There has been plenty of females in and out of the military that have proven themselves VERY strong. I'm just saying females don't belong in combat, and it takes more physical strength to succeed in an Army elite group training such as the Rangers. It is good training for them to try the school, but I wouldn't want to see one as a Ranger.

Double standard we have: females can try male groups, but males can't try female groups. LOL

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 6:43 PM

2015-05-10T18:43:40-04:00

Get over the numbers, how many men recycle all the damn time, how many tab holders did it first time go all the way thru, and how many have actually carried on in their carriers doing "ranger" jobs? And could they pass it again 2 years down the road after not actually doing ranger shit

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 7:34 PM

2015-05-10T19:34:48-04:00

Here is my thing. I was one those when I was sent the survey asking if I thought that females should be integrated into Armor I said NO. I gave my thoughts on the matter (an additional question was do I think all males could do it and I also said NO). So 8 women got recycled, and I believe 101 men. They are for some reason going to do it. Go for it, I am not sure what they are trying to prove but they feel the need.
Let me stress something, I would say the same thing if we were talking about 109 MEN. Then again I am fundamentally opposed to Ranger Tankers. I respect those that have done it and they for the most part ALL HATED IT. However they now have it out of the way and that's cool for them. So, the question here is really 109 Soldier's for some reason what the living crap smoked out of them doing the same thing that they already did in hopes of making Mountain Phase. GOOD LUCK.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 7:38 PM

2015-05-10T19:38:26-04:00

I'm sorry to hear all the women were recycled, but I'm happy to hear (assume?) that the standards are not being adjusted. That's a very good thing.

Response by SGT Felicia King made May 10 at 2015 8:01 PM

2015-05-10T20:01:03-04:00

I think they said they have three chances total, and there has been quite a few that made it through Ranger training, but on the second try. Was it 30% that gets recycled or was that the percentage that didn't? Might have been that wasn't.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 11 at 2015 10:56 AM

2015-05-11T10:56:05-04:00

Stay tuned for a political fix. They always result in more of our treasure being lost down the road.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 11 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-05-11T22:40:59-04:00

Recycle sux...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 12:14 PM

2015-05-12T12:14:01-04:00

How many times will they need to be recycled to prove a point?

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 12:19 PM

2015-05-12T12:19:13-04:00

Hey they cant all be G.I Jane...... But on a serious note good luck to all those who are going thru... I hope at least one make it thru the school

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 1:01 PM

2015-05-12T13:01:19-04:00

I haven't actually gone to Basic Training yet, so, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Rangers elite infantry? From what I understand, women are not allowed to serve in combat roles, so why are they trying to become Rangers? Isn't it a waste of time?

Response by SGT Anthony Bussing made May 12 at 2015 6:09 PM

2015-05-12T18:09:20-04:00

it amazes me that so many have an opinion on this...people who have never done ranger school or would have the opportunity to do so because of their MOS...in my 20 years of service in the Army...I never once saw a ranger tab....in a motor pool...there just arent many 88M's out there with the tab...

I wonder how many of these fine Soldiers here would actually pass the school? on their first attempt? third?? Hell, we even have an officer here who has the tab that said he didnt pass on his first attempt...

Personally...I have never had the desire to go to ranger school, jump school or Air Assault school...for those who do...good on you...the only school I ever really wanted to go to...was the scuba school...now that would have rocked balls! but...when I was in the Corps...my MOS wasnt allowed to do it...so..what dd I do? nothing...I didnt go...guess what...never impeded my career or anything else...

so, in essence...if you have never gone to ranger school (not for you females) then why do you even have an opinion? if you work in a motor pool...why does it matter to you if a female passes ranger or not? are you scared that a woman may have more balls then you?

Women should be afforded every opportunity a male is...as long as she can pull her weight, do her job, follow my orders and not cause a disruption on my crew...I have no issues with a female serving with me. I say more power to them.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made May 12 at 2015 7:05 PM

2015-05-12T19:05:54-04:00

I am not Ranger Qualified, but IMHO if they (females) can make it without big Army changing the standards for them then have at it. When we start lowering standards is when problems will arise.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 8:49 PM

2015-05-12T20:49:50-04:00

It seemed like preferential treatment to me, but I'm no Ranger; I'm not even Army. It just seems suspect that they all get a second shot. This was the class with 8 that all failed and recycled, right? Or am I confusing this with something else?

Response by LTC Michael Hastings made May 13 at 2015 2:38 PM

2015-05-13T14:38:52-04:00

Can someone tell me how this initiative helps us kill the enemy better? (Gasp! He went there...) How will women in the Infantry make us more lethal? Anyone?

It doesn't. And ...it doesn't matter I suppose. This is not about what's best for our Army, or the defense of our nation. It's about careerism.

Interesting how the proponents who've posted their support of this...lessening of standards are all non infantrymen. Men can now give birth to children- but they are not the optimal chassis to do so. Women are and continue to be exceptional service members- but they are not NEEDED in direct ground combat. No Rifle Platoon Sergeant ever said after an exhausting day of evacuating casualties and recovering from a several hour firefight in restricted terrain "man, if only we had a 115lbs woman- that would've made all the difference. " if this offends, it's not my intent but so be it. It is pure fantasy to think that this will make us better in the long run. it's shortsighted and will cost lives. I don't care if you got your tab and then went logistics, or aviation, or engineers; your opinion is invalid. Find one just ONE infantry squad leader, platoon sergeant or First Sergeant who thinks this is smart. You won't. Because it isnt.

Response by SGT Greg Walker made May 13 at 2015 3:44 PM

2015-05-13T15:44:06-04:00

Women as Army Airborne Rangers?

I have been asked my opinion about this lately because the Army has recently decided to let 20 female soldiers attend Ranger School, all of which have either quit or have had to recycle the first phase.

As a former special operations soldier and war veteran of both Afghanistan and Iraq, it is a dishonor to place a woman (mother, daughter, sister, wife) on the front lines of battle and it disrupts the unity and discipline of men who are battle focused.

When I was in Afghanistan in Late 2001 - early 2002, I was based in Bagram, Afghanistan. We (Amy Rangers, Delta Force, Seal Team 6, 160th special ops pilots, Airforce Tac-P’s, etc..) built a special compound that protected us from not only the local Afghan people, but created a boundary between us and the conventional U.S. military forces. It is common for special ops to have their own compound within a compound. We hired the Navy Sea-Bee’s to come in and build some showers for us, and up to this point, we were the only ones with decent showers in all of Bagram. One night, some British nurses came to our gate and asked if they could use our showers. Our commander said yes and so about 20 - 30 nurses came into our compound to take some hot showers. Once all the nurses were inside the shower tent, I witnessed 3 Delta Force soldiers, 2 Seal Team 6 soldiers, and about 6 Rangers run around the tent like little school girls trying to find holes to peek in and see the nurses naked. These are literally some of the most highly trained and most disciplined soldiers in the world who, because they knew there were naked British nurses showering naked, lost all military bearing & discipline.

If our compound would have been hit during the nurse shower time, our ability to react would have been hindered.

So not only is it dishonorable for any nation to send its women to fight on the front lines of battle, having women next to men on the battlefield causes men to act dishonorably.

Not to mention that when you allow women to join forces, like that of the Rangers, the entire force becomes weaker due to a drop in crucial standards.

So when the first female gets pinned with a Ranger Tab, the school will loose credibility & honor and REAL Rangers, like myself, will not associate themselves with this new, weak, and dishonorable school.

Men should go fight for their families, their friends, their nation, and hopefully it is a just War supported by Christian principles and values. Sending a wife, mother, grandmother, sister, daughter is and should never be an option and is a great dishonor & disgrace to any nation. I think the only exception should be if all the men are dead.

Much later on but early Iraq War: Jessica Lynch.........

- Former 1/75th Ranger Regiment (Afghanistan)
- Former Long Ranger Surveillance & Reconnaissance (Iraq)

Response by SSG Bill Butler made May 13 at 2015 10:22 PM

2015-05-13T22:22:52-04:00

I would have not made it if I recycled. I think it the path for them for a lot harder. A long Ranger school is not an easier ranger school.

Response by SSG Nick Tramontano made May 13 at 2015 11:35 PM

2015-05-13T23:35:40-04:00

I don't see women with shaved heads like the men so that shows them being treated different. Just like Basic Training. If men need to have their hair that short so should women !!

Response by CPL Matthew Yates made May 14 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-05-14T15:48:50-04:00

So close to them blueberry pancakes, and yet...so far away still...

Response by SSG Nick Tramontano made May 14 at 2015 6:57 PM

2015-05-14T18:57:21-04:00

The bottom line is that the standards are not lowered and there is no special treatment for the women. In Basic Training the women were in a separate platoon so I didn't really know what they had to do. 11B was all guys. When I became an Engineer, there were a females. One couldn't meet some of the test standards of Eng. tasks and she would start the BS act and the crocodile tears....I went to Jump School the following year and was surprised to see females. Compared to the original course in WWII , The standards are lower. Every day we had an inspection. If you had the slightest 'Gig' you were sent to the 'Gig Pit'. I had a female type personnel next to me. Instead of getting dogged in the pit with extra PT, the 'Black Hat' sent her back to the regular formation...WRONG !!!... Just a couple of examples of what goes on.

Response by SFC Joseph James made May 14 at 2015 10:04 PM

2015-05-14T22:04:05-04:00

These women and men have done something I have never done and that's even try! Hats off to them all!

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made May 16 at 2015 2:18 PM

2015-05-16T14:18:31-04:00

After reading through some of the responses I am truly disappointed with some of the reasons for not allowing females into ranger school. Comments about a 115lb female because no male EVER was 115lbs. Women are physically different. Yes most of us are. Statistically we are more agile and have better small motor function. Women wont make the army any better by being in combat, And my favorite is women cant serve in combat MOSs so what's the point in going to ranger school. While on paper that is true, its not in real life. We are already fighting in combat regardless of what paper says. We are in fire fights(not just being shot at but shooting back), we are on foot in the cities, we are being blown up, we are diving in and saving lives all with out a combat designated MOS. The reality is women are already doing what some of you are saying they cant. The fact that some of you are not open to letting them try at all is the worst of it. The standards have not been lowered to help them pass and this is not the first time someone has been recycled. What I want to know is what is the TRUE fear of officially letting women in these roles because most of what i'm reading in the comments is "in the words of my niece" lame.

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 29 at 2015 6:52 PM

2015-05-29T18:52:32-04:00

http://watertowndailytimes.com/news03/final-8-female-soldiers-at-ranger-school-fail-darby-phase-again-three-to-restart-from-beginning-video-20150529?utm_source=8xnStY&utm_medium=redirect&utm_campaign=wdt.me&utm_content=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FtUWjKj9I28

Update!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2015 9:36 PM

2015-05-31T21:36:47-04:00

Good Luck to those who go through this tough school.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made Nov 17 at 2015 3:39 AM

2015-11-17T03:39:02-05:00

Anyone is given the opportunity to recycle most don't have the balls to do it...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2016 9:58 AM

2016-02-01T09:58:07-05:00

Ha that female soldier was my old AS2!