Ever have your military rank negatively affect your civilian career or life?

SGT Dave Tracy — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:58:39 -0400

I had a rather odd situation come up.

I was just casually looking at an employment opportunity with a large company that not only has hired many grads from the specialized business program at the university I graduated from (prior to joining the Army), but is a big veteran hiring supporter—apparently.

This position is one where my education and experience would make me viable as a member of the candidate pool…now whether I could land the job is a different story, but it’s not like I was aiming for CEO. The company had a link to inquire if a veteran, which I did, and the long and the short of it was, the company vet rep I talked to strongly implied that the job was above me as they would want a veteran candidate who had been an officer.

Wait, what?

I didn’t say this to him, but what was running through my mind was “so if I rolled in off the street with my resume, I’d be a legitimate candidate, but as a veteran applicant, if I work through this guy and their veteran’s initiative—same resume obviously—I would NOT be qualified, because I am an NCO and not an officer [which was by choice]?” I also didn’t say it, and wish I had, but one of my former graduating classmates holds a position with that same company much higher than the one I was looking at, and she never served. I could probably reach out to her, but I’m not feeling high on them now. Besides, why make the next alumni get-together feel awkward?

Am I mad? Not mad, but a bit irked.

So, anyone else had their military rank bite them in the civilian world?

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Apr 29 at 2016 3:00 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:00:25 -0400

Response by SFC Chad Sowash made Apr 29 at 2016 3:10 PM

SFC Chad Sowash — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:10:27 -0400

Hey Dave, in most cases (no all) companies have little to no idea of how rank actually works and the belief is enlisted = no degree. So they focus heavily on JMOs - which in many cases aren't the right fit - and they bounce out in 6months to a year anyway - a total waste of time and a good candidate. The morale of the story is companies say they want to hire veterans, but they have NO IDEA what they are looking for - so they attend a 2-day seminar, hear a few things, think "this is easy" and whatever sticks becomes the basis of their program. It's sad, ignorant , and a waste of time and talent, especially when you have a degreed NCO looking them in the face and they have no clue what that actually means. Sorry to hear it, but it's more common than not. Does it make me angry? Every damn day...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2016 3:13 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:13:01 -0400

I've known a few organizations that look for Signal officers, but not Enlisted.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Apr 29 at 2016 3:19 PM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:19:39 -0400

I'll give you my personalassessment in a year or two. However, I am no more intelligent or harder working now than I was as a PFC. The issue is people want to see displayed performance and not just potential. Too many people have lots of upside that they waste and you are being discounted by every other person that was smart or hard-working that turned out to be garbage.

Response by CMSgt Lloyd French made Apr 29 at 2016 3:38 PM

CMSgt Lloyd French — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:38:10 -0400

The only thing that sets apart an enlisted person and an officer from a "credentials" standpoint is the 4-year college degree. I cannot over-emphasize the importance of a degree--coupled with your military technical and leadership experience when applying for industry positions. Use your network, if you know someone in the company, contact them and let them know what position you are looking at and see if they can put a plug in for you. Many companies offer a bonus to employees who recommend outside candidates. Some companies think of enlisted people as blue collar workers--not knowing that we are some of the most highly trained, capable, and adaptable people in the workforce today. Finally...lead with a GOOD résumé and cover letter...both are extremely important. Don't be bashful about seeking help writing these...a poor résumé or cover letter will nuke your chances for even an interview. Lastly, buy a great suit, get a conservative haircut, and work on your "elevator speech" ... which is your 30-second pitch telling someone who you are and why they should hire you. First impressions are important.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2016 3:42 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:42:03 -0400

I think it's shocking and actually, quite disappointing, how uninformed even "Veteran Recruiters" are about what value we bring to a company!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2016 3:42 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:42:57 -0400

I haven't received that treatment and I'm a E-5, but those who I've given my resume to, I didn't bombard them with military information because a lot of civilian employers do not understand the information. There are employers that do look at the paper rather than the person.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 29 at 2016 4:02 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:02:29 -0400

That is a very strange situation SGT Dave Tracy. I think what it might be is employers not fully understanding rank structure. Not to take anything away from any, regardless of rank, but if you have the training and the experience they are looking for, your rank in the military should not matter.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2016 4:40 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:40:35 -0400

Sadly, I'm sure you're spot on.

However, I can assure you it works "both ways". When I first left AD, I was repeatedly told that as an officer, I was either "overqualified" (translation: "We don't want you taking Bob's job"), or in more sincere terms, "underqualified" (translation: "We figure you weren't hands on enough"). I ended up "low man" on a residential construction crew (actually, one of the best jobs I ever had) working for an OUTSTANDING former E-5. I've officially dug ditches and worked for a living.

It took awhile, but eventually, I got up the chain...and am on an equal par with quite a few former NCOs I'm proud to call colleagues. I'll never make the equivalent salary of my year group still in uniform...and will certainly never enjoy their retirement options.

A lot of it comes down to being "the guy" a company is looking for; your military past can accentuate, or cloud over that prospect pretty quick. If you're looking for a sales job bringing in a $60k plus salary plus commission, they'd rather hire someone who "came up" in corporate sales...but might take a chance on an extroverted officer (if the market has customers who are ring knockers). If you're looking to manage folks in public utilities, they'd rather hire someone who started out on the line at 19, but may take a chance on an infantry NCO with mechanical ability and certs to back it up.

Bottom line; we're seriously misled about what our military identity means out here...No JO born can step into a mid-level corporate mgt job without some serious prep, and no matter how hard you worked to make stripes, every guy who came out of HS to land that coveted spot on the crew is going to resent a sup who didn't. What makes the difference is what you do once you get a toe in the door. One of my Sailors painted rocks for a few years till he got on a federal fire crew...now, he's a "Yellow Shirt" making great pay and living a life I sometimes envy. In my case, it just came down to learning to be someone different, and making that as valuable an accomplishment as my oak leaves.

Response by CSM(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2016 5:14 PM

CSM(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:14:32 -0400

There are a lot of assumptions made based on rank and even a degree. A fair evaluation of your skill, accomplishments, ability and vision should have been evaluated, not your rank.

Ironically I experience the opposite with my employer in two ways. With my peers, I find myself stepping on toes because of my military experience and leadership skills. With superiors I found that they sometimes expect more of me and task me with special projects. Honestly… I don't mind either way. I am leading my peers to greater successes and exceeding the expectations of my superiors and learning skills outside my current role with my employer.

This situation can be a learning opportunity. In the future, you can articulate your professional assets rather than them making assumptions based on your rank.

Good luck!

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Apr 29 at 2016 8:01 PM

CSM Thomas McGarry — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:01:52 -0400

I can't say my military career ever cost me a job but as a retired CSM in the Army Reserves I suspect that my membership in the Reserves has probably cost me some promotions over the years as I was a State Government employee. You can say what you want but I believe some bosses don't want to deal with the time off needed to perform reserve duty and god forbid if you're ever deployed.

Response by CPT John Sheridan made Apr 29 at 2016 8:25 PM

CPT John Sheridan — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:25:04 -0400

I was 34 years old having been an NCO in a very prestigious unit and left the Army as a CPT. I had an advanced degree in engineering, yet it was necessary for me to take an entry level engineering position. Regardless of my experience in general and my military leadership experience, I was ill prepared to jump into a corporate management role. Gaining the experience necessary that way and my military experience helped me to progress and in fairly short order (a few years), I landed in a key role for the company and later progressed into an important senior management role.

Corporate leadership is much more nuanced than military leadership. You have none of the legal authority, so your ability to lead is heavily dependent upon consent of those led and the respect you earn. Giving orders is rarely an option. One surprising thing is that in many companies managers have the authority to fire employees, but the process to do so is more complex than throwing someone out of the service.

I think it's important to recognize both the strengths and limitations of military experience and to not expect others to recognize it from a résumé. Find a position where you can work hard and demonstrate your value. Most people in the Corporate world are not veterans and are not sure how to deal with those that are. Two days each year, they'll want to "thank you for your service". Some will show a certain kind of awkward deference to your veteran status and many will be a little intimidated by it. It's important to make your new colleagues comfortable with you and your status as a veteran.

Don't be disappointed if you have to start In a role that seems like a step down from where you were. View it as an opportunity.

Response by SGT David T. made Apr 29 at 2016 8:31 PM

SGT David T. — Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:31:56 -0400

I never ran into what you describe. Mostly people are surprised I was enlisted.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Apr 30 at 2016 7:46 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 07:46:42 -0400

I have a story that I thought might possibly interest you; sevl yrs ago, while I'd been in grad school for my clinical doctorate ,which, unfortunately, sue to very fortunately fairly recent VA approved total permanent disability or TPD I can no longer use, the license for which my wife and I had me permanently shut off, one of my clinical faculty, an extremely unusual, as well as clinically brilliant and adept mam, had been an army NCO Green Beret during Vietnam. I never knew his whole story, only that it was positively true, as our Dean, a most perceptive man, had explained it all to us during class one day. I can thus positively assure you that , having expressly trained with and under the man, he was an elder of the Mormon Church, exceptionally devout, and the supervisor locally near the grad school of young teenage Mormons during their sojourn period, as I believe it to be called, where they leave home and go on a pilgrimage to another part of the country or world, I gathered. I took many hours of class and clinic instruction with him, got to know him extremely well, and also, expectedly made equally many quite clumsy and gauche mistakes around him and or in speaking with him or colleagues of his, partially due to my being positively in sheer awe of the man, at the same time due to my own positively moribund clumsiness. That being said, though I haven't seen and or spoken with him for many years, I do of course recall him quite vividly nonetheless of course. Then too one of my uncles my dad's sister's husband, was a SSgt in Europe during ww2 at southwick house with Eisenhower, who did actually remember him when my uncle personally received his Bach diploma from him on the steps of the Columbia Univ library along with many other GI Bill grads when Eisenhower was president of Columbia Univ before being elected president. My uncle was actually in the commo trailer during the German surrender at the little red schoolhouse in Rheims Germany and personally helped send out the first Telex of the German surrender with the 3118th signal svc battalion or group that given a presidential unit citation on the endorsement of gen Eisenhower afterward. Amusingly, my uncle also mentioned to gen Eisenhower at Columbia during the graduation ceremony that he knew him, and the gen did after a minute recall him. Further amusingly, my uncle also swiped one of the Telex flimsies of the German surrender he'd helped send as a souvenir, my cousins his two boys now have it in a safe deposit box for both sons of my younger cousin of the two sons of my aunt and uncle. My uncle knew and saluted Eisenhower, Churchill, month, Parton, Marshall, fleet ADM King, and all of the combinechiefs of staff or CCS at one point or another, he knew SSgt Mickey Keogh I believe, gen Eisenhower's Batman as the British call such a personal aide to a gen officer of that period, he knew and saw Capt Kay summersby the driver to gen eisenhower. He later became the VP of a fairly large home furnishing company in Manhattan, met Brooke shields the actress once wth colleagues at a function, I saw the picture with my own eyes, and displayed his purloined Telex every meml day, 4th July, and vets day at their local library though I unfortunately never got to see it though I know the story is true, as I sent for his records after we'd lost him a few yrs ago from nprc in St Louis, the record repository. My favorite teacher in VOC Ed high school alongside my reglr high school a brilliant man, was USMC enlisdpted, constantly calling our classroom floor a deck. My wifes dad was enlisted army then accepted without a bach during ww2 commissioned thru army artillery ocs at ft sill ok that ocs existed back then and led the mimefield charge getting a bronze star on the bank of the Moselle river in France during the battle of Nancy right behind the 9th army guys who captured the bridge at remagen over the Rhine river. My wife's stepdad was an enlisted interior comm tech on board sevl navy destroyers during ww2 and korea. So, I hope that gives some answer as to why I think having been enlisted ought to not matter, and of course, why that response you'd been given in the interview you'd gone to was obviously totally abysmal, certainly as well as utterly bad taste! We my wife amd i both hope you found all that of some use and that it helps, I'd be most eager to know your thoughts and or reactions many thanks, I hope it was of value.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Apr 30 at 2016 7:48 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 07:48:36 -0400

And my dad was Navy enlisted as an aircraft mechanic noncombat during Korea near Gitmo deploying to the USS block island a carrier, as well, almost forgot that one as well.

Response by CPT John Sheridan made Apr 30 at 2016 9:22 AM

CPT John Sheridan — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:22:59 -0400

I commented once already. Some of the other responses have some really good insight. So, I thought that I could offer an additional bit of advice.

Inside the military, your résumé is the personnel folder and your achievements are measured by rank, date of rank, schools attended, tours of duty, awards & decorations, NCOER/OER ratings, APFT scores, and how you look in a DA photo. In the civilian world, it is very different. Unlike military leaders, civilian managers have a great deal of discretion in who they have work for them and there are few, if any objective measures by which to make hiring decisions. There are three things you need to do, the second and third are how you translate your veteran status into a positive.

1) Know the organization you are applying to. What do they do? What are their explicit and implicit organizational values? Where are they trying to go? Show this in a cover letter. The quickest way to get into the "discard" pile is to send a generic cover letter. Demonstrate this knowledge in the interview in your responses to questions and questions that you ask.

2) Communicate your successes with short affirmative statements that say what you did and the result you got. On the résumé, this should be 2 - 4 bullet comments under each key position that you held. These bullet comments should be succinct single sentences that are 1 - 2 lines long and contain no jargon.

3) Be prepared to honestly address your failures by turning them into positives by talking about lessons learned and how the course corrections ultimately lead to success. Many interviewers will ask questions such as "tell me about something that you did that didn't work".

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 30 at 2016 10:50 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:50:19 -0400

Never had being an officer held against me.

I did see at least one instance of an excellent employee being held back, IMO, because she was a retired E-6. Although she had a Masters Degree many technical certifications, and had been retired over 5 years, she was unable to get an entry-level management job in a company because the local managers, who were all retired officers, saw her as a "technician" not a manager. She finally went to work for a company with no DoD contracts of any significance and moved into management rapidly. Good for her!

Response by TSgt Jack Manigold made Apr 30 at 2016 1:21 PM

TSgt Jack Manigold — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:21:38 -0400

I have seen many cases where businesses are taught officer=manager and enlisted=manual labor. It's a lack of education.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2016 2:02 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:02:49 -0400

There is a common theme in civilian circles that enlisted folk are peons and only officers have experience that they want. I've had some prior military folks that, once they find out I was enlisted, will actually REFUSE to speak with me - even though I have been subject matter specialist and in charge of operations - all because I didn't have a commission.

In the past, I've also set up record-keeping so when they fail in their task, it is CLEAR that their failure was due to ignoring the valuable asset that was in front of them the whole time.

Response by MSgt Richard Rountree made May 2 at 2016 5:50 AM

MSgt Richard Rountree — Mon, 02 May 2016 05:50:40 -0400

I don't think my rank had anything to do with the bias I observed immediately after I retired. The general perception was, "oh, you were in the Air Force for 20 years, but do you know anything?" Credentials that would go far in the military , such as being selected as the 1990 Outstanding Information Management Senior NCO for the USAF in Europe (USAFE), had no meaning whatsoever in the civilian world. When I interviewed at Cold River Software in Ann Arbor MI in 1993 the interviewer insinuated I didn't know enough about computers through my USAF experience. My response was "Look lady, I've forgotten more about computers than you'll ever know." I was hired on the spot.

Response by LTC Zachary Hubbard made May 18 at 2016 7:42 AM

LTC Zachary Hubbard — Wed, 18 May 2016 07:42:30 -0400

It works both ways. More than once I've been told that a job I'd applied for would not be challenging for me and I'd grow bored. Look, if I didn't want the job I wouldn't have applied. Sadly, sometimes we have to omit information from a resume to be competitive. In my case, I learned to dumb it down. In your case, all I can tell you is it sounds like the company you described only pays lip service to "veteran friendly" and you wouldn't have wanted to work for them anyway. Good luck!

Response by SFC Michael Palmer made Jul 3 at 2021 5:45 PM

SFC Michael Palmer — Sat, 03 Jul 2021 17:45:45 -0400

Yeah, and this is completely my fault, but it needed to be said. My one-time supervisor, who thinks he's someone important ("Uh, you're a sergeant in a 110 bed county jail, what makes you king of the world?" I didn't say that), once told me, a former infantry platoon sergeant, that I "didn't understand managing people while dealing with other responsibilities". I told him "You supervise seven people. I supervised over thirty, to include "supervisors" within my platoon, as well as handle logistics, planning, and personnel issues. Oh, and I had numerous armored vehicles to ensure were in good order and a lieutenant to baby-sit". That did not go over well. Luckily, the "big boss" grew up as an "Army brat" whose dad had been a Brigade Sergeant Major and calmed down my supervisor.