Experience vs Work Ethic: Which one is more important in an E-4 and below?

2015-08-08T14:47:16-04:00

A strong worker or someone who has held the rank longer? Say you have a team leader slot open and you have a SPC who has showed no real leadership or even in depth job knowledge vs a PFC who has stepped up to not only lead their peers but seek knowledge from the supporting jobs surrounding their job to further themselves in their mission and ability to troubleshoot problems that arise to at least complete the current mission. Do you as a leader stay with rank and give the team leader to the almost unless unwilling to learn SPC or the overly high speed PFC who has proven themselves time and time again?

Response by SPC Christopher Salustro made Aug 8 at 2015 2:56 PM

2015-08-08T14:56:15-04:00

I'd say give the SPC the slot (for now) and give him enough rope to hang himself. It always happens, the underachiever will fail and that PFC will step up and do his job plus his supervisors. When that PFC gets to his 18 months you waiver him and swap him out.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 8 at 2015 2:58 PM

2015-08-08T14:58:32-04:00

I would put the E-4 in the leadership position in name only, then the his Squad Leader needs to find out why their is a major malfunction. Nobody wants a leader can't maneuver out of a paper bag.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 3:00 PM

2015-08-08T15:00:50-04:00

I would have to say the person with the higher rank gets a chance to succeed or to fail. I am a firm believer that rank does not equal proficiency, but in the military we live in a hierarchical world.

Response by SPC Chris Early made Aug 8 at 2015 3:06 PM

2015-08-08T15:06:44-04:00

i would say the pfc, because i was him no matter what my rank was at the time i pushed to learn and to become a better soldier. When i had my first AT with the guard i took control of setting up our tents and fighting postions because no one else knew how to properly do it, and i did it not to show off but because i had the ability and the support of my Superiors.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 3:09 PM

2015-08-08T15:09:40-04:00

I will quote the very eloquent CSM Don Purdy for this. He would say "This bullshit of "I have done that" is garbage. What you are doing now is what counts."

He is exactly right. It doesn't matter what you did. It isn't going to get the job done right now. It is like having a huge saving account but you don't work and you starve because you don't want to spend any money. Meanwhile another guy works hard at a job and makes enough money to feed himself and put a little away in savings. He may not be as rich as the other guy but he eating well.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 3:15 PM

2015-08-08T15:15:20-04:00

Great question, and this applies still as you move up in ranks too.

I'd say, give the SPC a sporting chance, after all, they are wearing that rank. They were promoted to it based off their prior performance and potential, and at least ideally they had the commanders confidence that they could handle greater responsibility at the next grade. If they show that they can't, then 4856 it and give them the opportunity to pull their head out their ass. If not, fire them and give the PFC the opportunity and document in the same way. If the SPC continues to fuck up and doesn't rise to the challenger, demote or get rid of them. I've had to deal with E-5's in the same way, and they learned quick that they can't hide in their rank, that either they always perform at or above expectation or it went on the NCOER.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 8 at 2015 3:20 PM

2015-08-08T15:20:38-04:00

I must be honest, I have never had a SPC like that. He is delusional, not bright, does not want to work hard, and is selfish. His basic constitution is rotten. Don't let him go to promotion boards and start writing counseling statements when all avenues have been exhausted. Put the PFC in charge, it should shame him, but I have a feeling he will feel relief, but not feel the shame of the situation.

Response by SPC James Burkett II made Aug 8 at 2015 3:25 PM

2015-08-08T15:25:27-04:00

Thank you everyone for your advise. I will take all this to my Section Sargent so we can make the right choose for our soldiers and the Army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 3:52 PM

2015-08-08T15:52:07-04:00

I was in this position before. My squad leader gave me the slot as a SPC and I was in charge of a SGT and he ended up losing his rank in a reduction board later on. I'd mentor that SPC as much as possible and if that SPC showed no progression, that PFC would be in charge next.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 8 at 2015 4:04 PM

2015-08-08T16:04:55-04:00

Strong worker. They are leading bybexample

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 4:06 PM

2015-08-08T16:06:09-04:00

The SPC will take the team leader slot while the PFC continues to be "high speed" as he should be to begin with. When the PFC get his SPC then yall can do the debate.

Response by LTC John Shaw made Aug 8 at 2015 4:43 PM

2015-08-08T16:43:46-04:00

SPC James Burkett II You need to pick the best leader, the PFC. Soldiers almost always gravitate to the best informal leader to reciprocates respect. You need to counsel the SPC on specifically what behaviors and skills you DO NOT see exhibited. Maybe the SPC does not remain an E-4 until he is able to demonstrate these behaviors. Better to be BRUTALLY HONEST and get his attention to get his head in the game. Don't let the SPC off the hook, establish a mentor relationship and be specific on what you expect out of him.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 4:46 PM

2015-08-08T16:46:14-04:00

Work ethic is important for every rank, while experience becomes more important the higher rank you are.

So for an E-1, almost all work ethic, for an E-9, let's call it 50/50 or some other ratio.

Which would mean for an E-4 probably work ethic over experience but with experience taking more of a role as rank/time progress.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Aug 8 at 2015 5:01 PM

2015-08-08T17:01:11-04:00

I think is important to maintain a combination of both at all levels. To be effective, you must be willing to use your experience to benefit the group as well as maintain a good worth ethic to get the job complete. These starts from "Day 1" of your enlistment and continues all the way throughout your military and civilian career.

Response by SPC Jonathan Sellers made Aug 8 at 2015 5:03 PM

2015-08-08T17:03:43-04:00

Promote the PFC then give them the TL position.

Response by SrA Daniel Hunter made Aug 8 at 2015 5:14 PM

2015-08-08T17:14:25-04:00

Generally speaking work ethic is more important. Experience will come with time and if you have good NCOs the experience difference should be minimized. Between two people of different ranks it is more of a socio-political issue. How will the SPC respond if the PFC is given the lead? Would it create a poisonous environment in the unit? If the SPC does the job well and the answer to either of the two questions above would result in reduced morale, stick with the SPC. The PFC will get there in time.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Aug 8 at 2015 7:45 PM

2015-08-08T19:45:11-04:00

I give it to the person with heart and a desire to complete the mission, the individual who is marking time is not going to lead us to where we need to go. I'd encourage you to counsel the senior individual on why they were passed up for the opportunity but I always believe in developing those that show potential and desire.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 7:49 PM

2015-08-08T19:49:33-04:00

As NCO my job is to train both Soldiers, if they SPC choose not to improve his thecnical and tactical skills then he should be recommended to a reduction board.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 8:54 PM

2015-08-08T20:54:42-04:00

SPC James Burkett II : Since I have had to make dozens of these decisions with my PSG , I can tell you that just like military discipline - circumstances matter. In some instances I may want to reward a high performing Soldier with more responsibility. Other times, I may give a Soldier responsibility to see how he steps into a leadership role and give him a strong NCO to see how we can develop him.

In all instances, I measure their performance over time. What I mean is if they cannot fulfill their responsibilities and cannot develop, our NCO's will help me find the guy who is hungry for it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 11:32 PM

2015-08-08T23:32:43-04:00

Give it to the motivated PFC first, then if the SPC gets pissed off that a PFC is in charge of him hopefully he will step up and improve. If he does not, then your choice was 100% correct. Rank at E4 and below means little as it ends up being automatic eventually. Everybody know of the E4 Mafia, and the shamming abilities of the shield bearers lol. However there comes a point when an individual has to stop doing that and take on a leadership role, or get out of the Army

Response by SSG Eddye Royal made Aug 8 at 2015 11:38 PM

2015-08-08T23:38:55-04:00

SPC James Burkett, I retired from 3-82 FA, I served their on/off since 1985. I will ECCO the CW3, I became the BATTALION COMSEC because the E-5, became and stated DRUNK! Since I came from a Different unit overseas 210th bde I took the job. And set a new standard for improvement in #MORAL and standards,

I had been a training NCO, before so I put things in place after the 1st and CO approved the plan.

Response by MSgt Darum Danford made Aug 8 at 2015 11:44 PM

2015-08-08T23:44:57-04:00

Give the higher ranking person the position and make sure he knows he must earn the privilege of keeping it. Clear expectations and propper mentoring sets him up for success. If he loses it, that's on him.

Response by Capt Chris McVeigh made Aug 9 at 2015 3:24 AM

2015-08-09T03:24:27-04:00

Promoting incompetence destroys respect. Not only are you putting an incompetent individual in a leadership position, but to everyone around you it also looks like you can't tell that he is useless. If an individual cannot get the mission done, you remove them and put someone new in the role.

He may have the rank to hold the position but if you have tried to fix them already and they refuse to improve, get them out of the way.

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made Aug 9 at 2015 9:31 AM

2015-08-09T09:31:22-04:00

A SPC should always strive to be ahead of thos below him to show he is ready for the next role as a leader. If that SPC shows no willingness to do so reguardless of their rank I would put the PFC in that spot. Unless that SPC shows some kind of interest in stepping up why would you put him /her in a leadership spot just to give a chance of being toxic to those below them. I myself have been team leader but i showed i was ready. I proved i wanted the position as a SPC. I showed it as a PFC and helped my peers as a PFC to fix things and if i didnt know i sought the information or training so i did know. Your answer is if the PFC rises above his peers and is ready to lead I would say yes put him/her as the team leader and maybe the SPC's would take note of where they are lacking and wake them up and show that A PFC stepped up where the SPC have been failing. This should be an eye opener to the SPC that they need to get on the ball and head out of 4th point of contact and get it back in the game. Show your worth not your rank.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2015 11:27 AM

2015-08-09T11:27:16-04:00

I would go with the PFC anyday. Currently as an artillery section chief, I have a E-2 as my assistant gunner, over a PFC and a SPC simply because of work ethic and competience.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2015 1:17 PM

2015-08-09T13:17:48-04:00

I always have been in the position where the person best suited for the job gets it, regardless of rank. Now if it was an NCO that was the slacker then they should loose that rank. But being that it is a SPC that is a slacker I am going to assume that it was an automatic promotion. It would be a disservice to not let this PFC shine, as well as get them the waivers that the level of performance deserves.
If this is your soldier ensure that they are counseled properly so both the good and bad soldiers have it in paperwork that they are either rising stars, or soldiers that are just punching the clock and making a paycheck.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-08-09T14:25:29-04:00

Giving the Specialist a chance to lead might be just what they need to turn them around and feel like an integral part of the team, so I would have to give them the chance first. If they fuck it up and still don't do anything to improve themselves, then fire their ass and give it to the PFC.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2015 3:30 PM

2015-08-09T15:30:18-04:00

Give it to the PFC, obviously the SPC doesnt care about his/her job. chances are that said SPC is probably getting out after the current enlistment. so give it to the PFC so that they can assume the responsibility and learn new things. I know that as a SPC i was put as a squad leader in an infantry unit not because my squad leader was a failure but he went on E-Leave and i learned a lot more than i ever thought i would and i use that towards my role as a team leader. so maybe this PFC can take what he learns and use it in the event of getting replaced by someone who is as high speed as they are, just higher ranking than them.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Aug 9 at 2015 4:34 PM

2015-08-09T16:34:59-04:00

The platoon was doing load up for FTX, and a new SFC asked who was most experienced in the task, the whole plt said 'Jensen' and the SFC said 'Jensen, you're in charge", I did well enough there. The same summer was med spt at the range, while giving heat casualty class, told everybody to drink a canteen right then and there: excuses and answers, excuses and answers; my Plt Sgt who was the acting Bn Med Officer was there when Sr NCOs decided to pull rank to not drink a canteen of water, I forget my answer 'in all due respect' but my Plt Sgt over-ruled them.
A couple of months later my Plt Sgt referenced the 2 situations as to why I was going to the E-5 Board.

Response by SPC(P) Mark Newman made Aug 9 at 2015 6:53 PM

2015-08-09T18:53:17-04:00

As a former hoodlum in the E-4 mafia, I'll say this: There are Sp4s just getting by. And there are Sp4s who (sorry) "want to be all they can be"! I am sure you are aware, Spec Burkett, Army regs might lean toward rank/time in grade as the main factor. But unlike some of my superiors have stated, I don't want to put someone unqualified into a leadership position and then "see if they fail" then replace them because I don't want me or my fellow soldiers to die unnecessarily. I'd rather have the PFC, as long as he had enough experience, training. See, in my mind, I can always teach someone small unit tactics, or how to come up with a duty roster or how to break a specific enemy code. I can't teach someone to give a shit.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2015 8:43 PM

2015-08-09T20:43:58-04:00

Definitely experience and demonstrated potential. Some SGTs are in charge of other SGTs who are far their senior because they are more competent. Or SFCs being frocked to 1SG over a MSG based on merit and expertise. Might motivate that SPC to step up their game.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 12:30 AM

2015-08-10T00:30:33-04:00

Definitely work ethic, you can have all the experience and knowledge in the world, but if you don't put it to use or are lazy then you are not leadership quality. However if you bust you're ass everyday with every task and prove you're worth, not only will you're leadership notice but all you're subordinates as well which that will gain their trust and respect and those are the values of true leadership.

Response by SPC Michael Frizzell made Aug 10 at 2015 2:06 AM

2015-08-10T02:06:51-04:00

The high speed PFC of course.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 9:37 AM

2015-08-10T09:37:58-04:00

For a leader, work ethic is most important in my opinion. I'd rather be led by an E-1 to E-3 with a better work ethic than myself, and be able to share my knowledge with that Sailor to get the task done properly. Of course, it is expected of the E-4 to take up leadership and knowledge but also recognize when he should take a step back and let someone "under" him or her take the helm. Drop the pride, and realize rank doesn't equate to the ability to get things done.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Aug 10 at 2015 9:58 AM

2015-08-10T09:58:20-04:00

I would first give the SPC an opportunity to lead and either prove him/herself or fail due to their incompetence, then I would provide the opportunity for the young PFC the opportunity if the SPC fails to be able to lead.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 10:33 AM

2015-08-10T10:33:36-04:00

I think following the regular procedure for something like this is clear. The SPC would get the open slot because of rank. They would either fail or succeed. At the same time, with such a high speed PFC, the squad leader or platoon sergeant should have already advised their PL or commander that this PFC is recommended for promotion (provided they have TIG and TIS). Eventually those who show the potential will always rank-up and move into leadership positions no matter how many career-long specialists are currently above them.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Aug 10 at 2015 10:41 AM

2015-08-10T10:41:21-04:00

Work ethic is more important, but the military has a rank structure for the good order and discipline of the force. Putting a PFC in charge of a SPC would disrupt that structure. The SPC needs to be given the opportunity to succeed. In an ideal world, better performance would equate to more responsibility and rank.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 10 at 2015 11:43 AM

2015-08-10T11:43:23-04:00

Easily, work ethic. That becomes critical when in a leadership position. As you progress, the experience takes care of itself.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 12:57 PM

2015-08-10T12:57:24-04:00

I vote for work ethic. How about frocking the PFC to CPL and putting him/her in charge of the team. That seems like the right call to me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 1:13 PM

2015-08-10T13:13:08-04:00

I would pick the PFC, but I would move the SPC to a SGT's team. If the SPC wants to ride that sham shield, he can do it all day for all I care. I will give the PFC a shot, see how he does, and get him to SPC early if it's available and see how he does with the shield. I would do this because that's how it's happened for me. Don't give up, understand that complaining does nothing but label you as whiny, and get proactive with everything, know that everything in the Army is written down somewhere, find it and you can do it. That's what got me from E-3 to E-7 as fast as physically possible.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Aug 10 at 2015 1:18 PM

2015-08-10T13:18:29-04:00

it was a thing I thought of as a SP4 medic, we had some prior infantry in the platoon, and in that question is the mix of soldier(infantry) vs technician, and with the common usage of over 100%, the question is what mix do you want 100% Tech/ 0% soldier , 50/50 mix, maybe an ideal of 60%/60%, and as I was always in support, I've looked at almost everybody in those terms of fantastic technician whose a terrible soldier vs a fantastic soldier whose a terrible technicain, and my ideal is the mix, but it seems that the leadership always wants to promote the wonderful soldier over the wonderful technician which can be the worst thing for the unit -
What mix do YOU want??

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 1:56 PM

2015-08-10T13:56:47-04:00

I d take work ethic over experience...simply because if you got the work ethic it shows you are willing to put in the time and effort to do the right thing and learn the right way. You already are going to have the stereotype of being a shammer simply because of the rank. E-4 mafia will not be strong with you.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Aug 10 at 2015 2:32 PM

2015-08-10T14:32:44-04:00

I always gave it to the willing while we were in combat, but back home I found mentors for both, but had the NCO's handle that because that is NCO business.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 3:59 PM

2015-08-10T15:59:48-04:00

SPC James Burkett II ,

Ethics before experience. Work experience will come in time.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 5:01 PM

2015-08-10T17:01:12-04:00

Work Ethic is definitely more important. Motivation will lead to experience but not the other way.

Response by SFC Stef T made Aug 10 at 2015 9:57 PM

2015-08-10T21:57:56-04:00

I will take the one with the work ethic every time. When a good soldier has the work ethic then comes the experience. When a good soldier has these qualities then promotions come easier and more quickly. Soon that SPC that once out-ranked him is now a subordinate to him/her. My leaders taught me and is still true today, quality over quantity every time. When your short-handed day in and day out you need people you can count on to get the job done right the first time and with little or no supervision. Get the job done and move on to the next. I may be getting old but I still have not forgotten how most of my soldiers were promoted ahead of others!!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 10:11 PM

2015-08-10T22:11:10-04:00

This is a no brainer. The SPC who has shown no real leadership would not even get a consideration. Those who feel rank entitles them to be a leader obviously don't understand the true meaning of leadership.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 11:56 PM

2015-08-10T23:56:11-04:00

Can a subordinate have a senior report to him? Same question, different variable, can a Sgt have a 2nd Lt report to him? I think not. If said PFC is so great, why not meritoriously promote him.
?

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Aug 11 at 2015 12:31 AM

2015-08-11T00:31:33-04:00

I would say that work ethic is the most important for E-4 and below. That work ethic will produce the Experience. It did for me. I entered the ARMY as an E-1 but was a SPEC-5 before the fifth year was up. SSG would have been a snap but I had a great electronics career waiting for me with at least double the money and more perks.I worked as an engineer for 5 months when the VP; Sales came back to my test bench and told me he was posting a job for the company's' first Inside Sales to be the liaison with the 5 Regional Managers and the whole factory in Huntsville, AL.Worked 20 months and got promoted to the first ever District Manager for the Rocky Mountains states. Only 30 years old and making decent six figure incomes. It only got better from there! Work Ethic got me there!

Response by SPC James Pierson made Aug 11 at 2015 5:08 AM

2015-08-11T05:08:25-04:00

My opinion and my military experiences are two different things ... IMHO, promotions should be given to those who work hard, have a good work ethic, and strive to become better than they curently are ... Unfortunately though, my experience has shown that, in the real world, it is not about what you know, but who you know. If you are buddy buddy with the squad leader or platoon sgt, then you will more than likely get promoted. If you are not, then you will likely get passed up for anything but details.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Aug 11 at 2015 9:22 AM

2015-08-11T09:22:41-04:00

I would go along with the Specialist until he/she mess up.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 11:07 AM

2015-08-11T11:07:39-04:00

Strong workers are great...but experience is always more valuable. Within a platoon, there will always be enough Specialists to cover down on junior leadership positions, especially in most combat arms units. The issue you bring up is a problem faced mostly by support units where "leadership" is often confused with "management". If a PFC is better than a Specialist, then it is a failure on the leadership of that unit. Due to the small size of many support units when compared to comparable combat arms units I can see this as being a challenge. Still, that can be overcome with proper leadership and mentoring.

Response by SSG Keith Roberson made Aug 11 at 2015 12:49 PM

2015-08-11T12:49:16-04:00

IMO I prefer a strong work ethic, because as an NCO I can teach the soldier experience and it will be gained the more work they accomplish.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Aug 11 at 2015 2:58 PM

2015-08-11T14:58:30-04:00

You have to let the senior man lead. Give him what he needs to succeed and get the job done. If he can't handle the responsibilities, you fire him and get someone else to do the job that is more capable. Be patient, the cream eventually floats to the top.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 3:25 PM

2015-08-11T15:25:31-04:00

Work ethic, you are still learning your job imo and possibly don't have all the experience, and you never will have all the experience anyway, you will all ways be learning no matter what rank you are. If you have a good work ethic you will always be learning, and then can teach and lead others the experience you have. You need a god work ethic and the willing to Lear to get the experience. As soon as you think you know it all you are going to fail.

Response by 2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 4:15 PM

2015-08-11T16:15:49-04:00

Experience can be gained over time, but strength of character is very hard to build and therefore more valuable in my eyes. I'll always take the work ethic over experience. The experience is no good if the person has no motivation to put it to use. Now, there's some things that have to be considered, like if the person needs any specific training or qualifications to fill the role (you don't send a 3-level mechanic who doesn't have the proper certs to go spin up an aircraft), but after ensuring they have said necessary prerequisites to do the job safely/legally, they're cleared hot in my book!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 4:54 PM

2015-08-11T16:54:18-04:00

Personally, I will take an E-1 with no experience but a strong work ethic over anyone with experience and no work ethic any day. That E-1 may take a little more time a patience to teach him things, however I enjoy teaching/training people who are willing to learn. That E-4 with no work ethic, no matter how much experience he has, is useless to me.

In your case, I would take the PFC for the position, though would sit the SPC down before hand and explain to him why he isn't the one getting the team leader. If you were to pick the SPC, you can almost guarantee that those he is leading will follow his lead and become as useless as he which will be detrimental to your work force.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-08-11T16:59:24-04:00

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Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made Aug 11 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-08-11T16:59:32-04:00

For me, work ethic. Experience is important in certain fields, but in my field of Logistics, it was work ethics for junior enlisted.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Aug 11 at 2015 5:26 PM

2015-08-11T17:26:27-04:00

Both play a very important roll for the lower enlisted. The better your work ethics the more experience you will gather and move up the chain faster. Back in my day the Army looked for "floaters" and phased them out of the military. It was not wise to stay at any given rank for too long, peers looked at that and made command decisions about ones future.

Response by SGT Christopher Churilla made Aug 11 at 2015 5:29 PM

2015-08-11T17:29:28-04:00

I've been to plenty of promotion ceremonies and almost always included in the citation is that the promotion is based (at least in part) to "demonstrated leadership potential". With that in mind I'd give it to the PFC without a second thought.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 7:13 PM

2015-08-11T19:13:32-04:00

" A strong worker or someone who has held the rank longer?....... "

You assume that by virtue of holding the rank longer, they have more experience. This is an easy mistake to make, but simply is not true. With every profession, you have place holders. Folks who are there just holding a spot and barely treading water.

To me, Work ethic breeds experience. The Soldier out there being the Bellwether is going to have the experience. Take my unit for example. I had a PFC that had strong work ethic in every aspect of Soldiering. He went and got a certification he did not need for his MOS. But this Certification allowed him to do things outside of his MOS and made him value added to the mission because now he was a multiplier. He got the waiver to SPC. The two PFCs that came to the unit three months before him, waited the entire 24 months. His work ethic gave him experience the place holders were not willing to attain.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 7:30 PM

2015-08-11T19:30:36-04:00

I'd say both are key, but don't go confusing rank with experience in this case, what I mean is I'll take the guy that has done the job inside and out for quite some time and knows what he's doing and is ready to do what he has to do to get the job done. I'm not asking for someone to be the over the top motivator and show up to work every day 2 hours early. I expect the person to be ready to do what it takes to get the job done, and be where they are supposed to be when they are supposed to be there. Nothing pisses people off more than to receive ass chewings because of the guy that skated off somewhere for 2 hours who didn't get the job done, and now everyone has to stay behind till 1700 or later to ensure stuff gets done. But BOTH are key in all honesty. I was motivated, and I took the time to learn my job inside and out to the best of my ability.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 9:37 PM

2015-08-11T21:37:04-04:00

In the situation as outlined above work experience is more important than experience. The experienced individual can still be very useful to the person with the will to work though.

Response by SPC Roy Stamps made Aug 12 at 2015 5:55 AM

2015-08-12T05:55:30-04:00

There are a few ways you can go about this one I think. I have seen the Platoon daddy take those two aside and have a real true conversation with them. One that makes the SPC understand that he is a weak link and needs some motivational training from the PFC no less. This does two things. It bolsters the PFC so that if the SPC does not take head, that when the PFC is promoted into the leadership position the SPC can not complain because he has been given a chance to change and learn, but decide to be useless and was summarily stepped over. And two it gives the PFC inherent knowledge that his chain of command has recognized his abilities and wants to see him excel and do great things as a leader in the unit. There is no room for pride in the ranks of fighting men. If you are not up to the job, you should not be given the job until you are ready. I was a Spec 4 for almost 7 years. I was good at my job in the MPs. But favoritism and in some cases other prejudices caused me to be stepped over. I understood and I fought. But sometimes you just have to bow your head and continue to march, hoping that someone will see that you are worth the time. And that's what happened to me.

Response by SPC Anthony Davis made Aug 12 at 2015 12:35 PM

2015-08-12T12:35:27-04:00

It's always based on the rank, now if you could promote the PFC then you have your leader. It may not be fate in some people's eyes but rank is always and will always be the determining factor.

Response by SFC David Davenport made Aug 13 at 2015 8:47 AM

2015-08-13T08:47:41-04:00

Work Ethic will lead to experience.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2015 8:49 AM

2015-08-13T08:49:15-04:00

It depends on the mission and intent. The Spc might get it if I want to observe how he will accomplish or fail the task. If he is willing to ask for help if needed. If he puts all the wait on his shoulders or tries to get everybody involved. The pic might get if I need it done right, right now. You still have to train and mentor everybody.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2015 10:54 AM

2015-08-13T10:54:33-04:00

Without a doubt hard work and attitude are far more valuable than years.

Response by SPC Michael Trotman made Aug 14 at 2015 8:09 AM

2015-08-14T08:09:57-04:00

rank comes First... has to

Response by SPC James Murphy made Aug 14 at 2015 11:57 AM

2015-08-14T11:57:46-04:00

I think it's a shame you have to pick one. I believe with one should come the other and a good work ethic should be a must.

Response by SPC Dakoda Mckinneypotter made Aug 29 at 2015 10:13 PM

2015-08-29T22:13:56-04:00

I think that if there is an E3 that shows more potential for leadership and enthusiasm about their job more than a lack luster E4 who doesn't want promotion or responsibility, then maybe having a lower ranking soldier in charge of them will light a fire under them and get their priorities in order. Or it will just piss the E4 off more and they will lead just lead themselves down a path of destruction that will ultimately end in a chapter packet. Either way the weak will weed themselves out if the leadership is willing to put in the paper work that will allow this process to run its course.

Response by PFC Robert Falk made Aug 30 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-08-30T14:24:58-04:00

I read all the field manuals I could get my hands on to help the troops and if I knew more the the other person I offered my "2 cents" just to help out.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2015 1:40 PM

2015-10-26T13:40:45-04:00

PFC all the way, does not mean I will stop mentoring the SPC.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2018 7:17 AM

2018-05-23T07:17:06-04:00

This becomes a double edge sword as the military’s rank structure has not really been designed to support such a posture. As a Marine Sgt, that was put in charge of overseeing operations for personnel two and three ranks above me. I grew to resent the way the promotion structure was design. If I was out performing senior leaders two ranks above me why then was I at least not promoted to a higher rank. It also made it difficult to overcome the rank difference as senior leaders would at many times attempt to circumvent others due to there higher rank. Luckily, if you have taken the time to understand the intricacies of the billet you could always find the publish orders to substantiate your claim and that was something not even rank could help them disregard. The problem was the way the promotion system was designed at least in the Marine Corps much emphasis is put on time of service rather than capabilities.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 23 at 2018 8:52 AM

2018-05-23T08:52:10-04:00

You by rank have to give them a chance to prove themselves- if they fail, then you go with the best person for the job- that is why they are SPC (mafia) to prove if they are worth advancement.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2020 2:15 PM

2020-03-05T14:15:26-05:00

While I would prefer to give the PFC the position, most people just don’t respect a PFC over a SPC.
Both work ethic and experience hold so much value in the military. Having somebody who knows the job and has been put through many different situations is always a treasure, as they may have been able to experience and learn from something that nobody else did.
However, a solid and strong work ethic is also very valuable. A solider who knows their duty and knows how to do it effectively is so very important. Especially these days when it can be some-what of a challenge to find a motivated and hard working soldier.

Overall if I had that decision to make, I would do my best to give the position to the PFC as they seem the most deserving and capable.