Fact or Fiction? A Diagnostic APFT can be used as Record APFT.

CSM Mike Maynard — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 07:53:14 -0500

If a Soldier is not due a Record APFT and takes a Diagnostic APFT, could the Cmd, by regulation, allow the Soldier to use the Diagnostic test as a Record test? Is there anything in the regulation that would prohibit that?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 8:16 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 08:16:49 -0500

CSM, AR 350-1 states "(2) Commanders may administer the APFT as often as they wish; however, they must specify beforehand when the results are for record."  Seems pretty cut and dry. I did have a Soldier pose this same question to me once as the training NCO. My thought is if we change your diagnostic to a record because you did well could we also tell you it is a diagnostic and change it to a record if you do poorly.  Has to be the same standard across the board.

Response by SPC Christopher Salustro made Dec 9 at 2013 10:32 AM

SPC Christopher Salustro — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 10:32:04 -0500

I agree with both MSG Cunningham and SSG Schmidt to an extent.

Yes SSG Schmidt, the AR does state that the command must specify, but often they don't. I've seen several commanders (and 1SGs) call up a PT test, read the "rule book" and never say anything about record or diagnostic. It's usually (just as MSG Cunningham said) a supposed record. I have only heard of diagnostics when it's not "the command" giving the test and just a platoon "activity" or the like. As in, SFC Snuffy says "We have a PT test coming up and I want to make sure everyone is good to go, there's a diag on Tuesday."

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 11:32 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 11:32:36 -0500

While I was recovering from a knee injury I was given a "diagnostic" PT Test, when I scored 50 point over my last record test, it magically became a "For Record"

Near as I can tell the difference is what is written at the bottom of the Scorecard.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Dec 9 at 2013 12:51 PM

1SG Frank Rocha — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:51:22 -0500

CSM,

Fiction. As stated above by SSG Schmidt, and by extension the excerpt he cut and pasted from AR 350-1, the unit commander must specify beforehand whether the APFT will be for record or Diagnostic. the only exception is in the case of an APFT used for NCOES, in which case the APFT can only be administered as a diagnostic APFT and is prohibited from being administered as a for record APFT.

The key words in the excerpt from AR 350-1 is "must" and "beforehand". "must", to me, indicates a strict requirement, not an optional requirement. "beforehand" furthermore gives us a timebase for that requirement. failure to specify beforehand, whether the APFT is diagnostic or for record, would constitute a clear violation of both the letter of the law, its intent, and could be cause to invalidate that APFT.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 12 at 2014 9:21 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 21:21:43 -0400

It got to the point where enough Os & Es were failing APFTs at MOSQ schools that it became command policy to take a "diagnostic" APFT with 30 days of our report date. We would then take the school APFT and would have to take a "for record" annual on the scheduled drill weekend. Needless to say our APFT average went up.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2014 12:00 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:00:04 -0500

In guard we have to give at least 90 days notice of a record APFT.

Response by SGT Scott Bell made Aug 29 at 2015 3:21 PM

SGT Scott Bell — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:21:03 -0400

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2016 9:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2016 21:52:55 -0500

I know this is an old post, but when in doubt, ask the regulation.
AR 350-1 (2) Commanders may administer the APFT as often as they wish; however, they must specify beforehand when the results are for record.
While the term "diagnostic" is used often, it is not referred to in the AR350-1 or FM 7-22. If the commander does not indicate the upcoming APFT will a record APFT, then it is a
" not for record " APFT. The National Guard does not have to give 4 months notice before an APFT. We are all required to meet the Army standard and pass an APFT at any given time.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2016 6:12 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Feb 2016 18:12:31 -0500

a diagnostic is a tool to use as to the physical readiness of troops for schooling, for up coming APFT's, for deployment, it should not be used for anything else. commanders should know how thier troops will do in these same situations, because it will reflect on thier command, a record APFT is the only acceptable way to go.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2017 12:34 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:34:40 -0400

CUT AND DRY - No, you cannot. Whatever you specify beforehand is what your taking. Perform as well as you can on the diag, but remember, it's a diag. Your not entitled to use it as a record, no matter how well you perform. That's why it's called a diag. It shows you where you're at.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2018 3:27 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 03:27:04 -0400

CSM Mike Maynard It’s actually very much a fact, regardless of what the regulations state. The Army has a decided tendency to do whatever it so chooses, including bumping up a well scored diagnostic APFT to a full blown record APFT.

“Nonsense!”, you say? Another perfect example would be the wear and appearance of the beret. Despite it being very clearly regulated in AR 670-1, soldiers wearing berets of every authorized color still manage to have atrocious, god awful berets. And not just because they didn’t shave them down and mold them correctly. Entire right eyes covered, the flash centered over the nose or even to the right of the nose, the headband either covering the eyebrow or front hairline, etc.

Despite a perfectly clear regulation, the Army really just chooses to ignore this portion of the regulation. Just like they can do with bumping a diag up to a record. I think if you took a poll and NCOs/Officers answered honestly, more than not would answer ‘yes’ to having seen a diag bumped to record.

(*note: the Army isn’t completely insane. No Commander would have a failing diag bumped up to a record. That would be against regulations, and an instant loser if the soldier rightly complained up the CoC or to IG)

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jun 22 at 2018 5:32 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 17:32:03 -0400

The question does not add up. If the Soldier is not due one then why would they need to use the score. If you are implying that sometime after the diagnostic that the failed and the unit fell back on that diagnostic to give the Soldier credit, then the answer is no. It would also be unethical, and likely punishable. Thank you for your service.

Response by CPL Sharon Fahey made Aug 11 at 2019 12:27 PM

CPL Sharon Fahey — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 12:27:03 -0400

Fiction.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2019 5:40 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:40:18 -0400

I believe any administered APFT needs to be clear to the grader and soldier taking it, whether its record or diagnostic. Once that has been documented on the 705 as one or the other, it cannot be changed.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Sep 12 at 2019 5:58 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:58:07 -0400

Ar350-1. You must declare record or diagnostic at the start of the test. You must also comply with the frequency and spacing of record tests

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2019 9:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Sep 2019 21:05:22 -0400

By regulation, absolutely not. By experience? Sure does.

Personally I don’t like picking which regs to follow and which ones not to follow, but I will say I’ve never seen this done to the detriment of the soldier...

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2021 9:43 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Nov 2021 21:43:57 -0500

I was told this was possible years ago. I had a good Soldier that took a diag and the following month injured himself which kicked him out of a school. I petitioned to use his diag for record and was told it was commander's discretion. Is there a reg?